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Ukraine’s libertarian revolution
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Blake2 Offline
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Question Ukraine’s libertarian revolution
I copied an article below, one of several authors writing about the new libertarian Ukraine lately.

It seems like they are really trying to make it into a business friendly environment, but we'll have to see.

The biggest challenge is still all those of the old generation stuck in the soviet mindset, and unfortunately those are the majority. Many of the the young, talented, and hardworking have moved abroad or are planning to.

I spoke to a programmer a while back who had his own company. He said he couldn't even manage paying his employees and running accounting in Ukraine due to all the regulations, corruption, and inefficiency so was thinking of moving his company to Poland.

Considering how bad of an investment climate it is, if the new president reforms even 25% of things and keeps things stable we could see a doubling of the GDP. (Considering its Europe's poorest country, a doubling from 3000 to 6000 GDP/cap is reasonable).

What do you guys think? Chances of an economic miracle?


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"Ukraine’s libertarian revolution" -AC

Kyiv is quiet. No demonstrations. No political graffiti.

And yet, Kyiv is ground zero for the most significant economic revolution in the region today.

In a libertarian reshaping of Ukraine’s post-Soviet system, the new government plans to approve the largest farm land market in Europe, the biggest post-Soviet privatization fire sale in a generation, and the opening of roads, railroads, ports, airports, oil and gas to private investment. Casino gambling and amber mining are to be legalized. Foreign exchange controls are to be lifted. Labor laws are to be liberalized.

In a whirlwind of legislative activity reminiscent of Franklin Roosevelt’s First 100 Days, Ukraine’s new government is creating opportunities for billions of dollars of foreign and national investment in the 2020s. In a move bound to unleash years of pent up investment, the central bank promises to cut interest rates in half by the end of next year.

Putting small government in practice, Ukraine’s new Prime Minister, Oleksiy Honcharuk last week cut the number of ministries by one third—from 25 to 17.

Kyiv is quiet partly because Volodymyr Zelenskyy won an open, multiparty presidential race, emerging with a popular mandate. Unprecedented in Ukraine’s 28 years of independence, Zelenskyy won 73 percent of the final presidential vote in April. Three months later, in parliamentary elections, he won a clear majority—60 percent of Rada seats. In late August, Zelenskyy’s trust rating was 70 percent, according to a survey by the Ilko Kucheriv Democratic Initiatives Foundation.

On the campaign trail, Zelenskyy was short on promises and short on interviews. Voters elected a black box. Last week, he jumped out of that box and proved to be a 41-year-old libertarian.

Part of the shakeup is a generational turnover. The post-post-Soviet generation now run Ukraine. With the youngest cabinet in Europe, average age 39, Ukraine’s cabinet members order their food online, order their taxis online, order their vacations online, and pay in stores with contactless bank cards. Faster adapters to new technology, Ukrainians bought 56 percent of their railroad tickets online this summer.

Now, at the wheel of government, these 30-somethings are asked to drive their country through the 2020s in a dusty, battered 1993 sedan.

Creating the “state in the smartphone,” is the task of Mykhailo Fedorov, Ukraine’s new deputy prime minister and minister for digital transformation. At 28, he shares the title of Europe’s youngest minister with Virginius Sinkevicius, Lithuania’s economy minister. Encapsulating Kyiv’s ambitious plans to create Estonia-style e-citizenship, Fedorov tells the Kyiv Post: “Eventually, people will stop noticing the government. They’ll be using it like they use Uber or Booking.com—only when they need it.”

Press reactions range from ho hum to skeptical to hostile. “Vulgar libertarianism,” sniped one Kyiv economist. Traditional political scientists, trained to identify a revolution as a worker-peasant alliance taking over the telegraph office, do not see anything special going on.

Many Ukrainian free marketers are sulking in the sidelines because they misread the Zelenskyy movement last spring. But with the government’s goals and deadlines clearly set, the prime minister reports that more and more Maidan-era talent are signing up to help.

While the Western business press yawns or looks away, Western business scouts fly into Kyiv.

Last Monday, I met with three alone from France, the United Kingdom, and the United States.

For some Westerners, Ukraine sounds risky.

If Ukraine is so risky, why are Russian-speaking Israelis, some of the world’s best risk evaluators, quietly investing in Ukraine? Why is the new Knesset, elected next Sunday, expected to ratify the free trade pact with Ukraine? Why is Tel Aviv the top international destination for Ukraine International Airlines? Hint: It is more than Ukraine having modern Europe’s first Jewish president.

Israelis see Ukraine as a country larger than France where a military standoff ties up 3 percent of the national territory in the Donbas. The 73 Ukrainian soldiers killed in the first nine months of this year should in no way be minimized. But, by comparison, 335 Americans have been killed in mass shootings since the start of the year. And about 3,300 Ukrainians are expected to die in car accidents this year.

For risk evaluation, the trend is more important than the numbers.

Here is the mood music in Kyiv this fall: Saturday’s prisoner swap will be a first step in a halting process for both sides to gradually stand down in the five-year war.

A shaky, imperfect peace combined with a free market revolution could well deliver the promised 7 percent GDP growth rates for the early 2020s.

A man should never be ashamed to own that he is wrong, which is but saying in other words that he is wiser today than he was yesterday.
-Alexander Pope
09-11-2019 10:41 PM
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Rocha Offline
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RE: Ukraine’s libertarian revolution
Do you want to purchase Ukraine Government bonds?

No, thank you.

"Поехали!!" (Yuri Gagarin, 1961)

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(This post was last modified: 09-11-2019 11:17 PM by Rocha.)
09-11-2019 11:17 PM
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Blake2 Offline
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RE: Ukraine’s libertarian revolution
(09-11-2019 11:17 PM)Rocha Wrote:  Do you want to purchase Ukraine Government bonds?

No, thank you.

Yah, some countries are able to inspire confidence in their economies....and others not.

But things can change. Portugal is a great example. It was doing so badly recently as on of the PIIGS countries, but now its touted as a success (Moody's upgraded its debt, unemployment is halved).

Based on your own country, did you expect the changes there?

A man should never be ashamed to own that he is wrong, which is but saying in other words that he is wiser today than he was yesterday.
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09-11-2019 11:33 PM
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Rocha Offline
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RE: Ukraine’s libertarian revolution
(09-11-2019 11:33 PM)Blake2 Wrote:  
(09-11-2019 11:17 PM)Rocha Wrote:  Do you want to purchase Ukraine Government bonds?

No, thank you.

Yah, some countries are able to inspire confidence in their economies....and others not.

But things can change. Portugal is a great example. It was doing so badly recently as on of the PIIGS countries, but now its touted as a success (Moody's upgraded its debt, unemployment is halved).

Based on your own country, did you expect the changes there?

Is all a bunch of crap those Moody's ratings and stuff.

Taxes where never higher in this country than they are now.

Before we had IRS...now we have all, plus VAT at 23% for most goods.

And most expensive electricity in EU, most expensive diesel, gasoline and gas in EU, most expensive cars in the world (after taxes)...

Plus PIIGS is a very derogatory comment that won't make you any friends in any of the supposed countries.

"Поехали!!" (Yuri Gagarin, 1961)

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(This post was last modified: 09-11-2019 11:47 PM by Rocha.)
09-11-2019 11:45 PM
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Blake2 Offline
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RE: Ukraine’s libertarian revolution
(09-11-2019 11:45 PM)Rocha Wrote:  
(09-11-2019 11:33 PM)Blake2 Wrote:  
(09-11-2019 11:17 PM)Rocha Wrote:  Do you want to purchase Ukraine Government bonds?

No, thank you.

Yah, some countries are able to inspire confidence in their economies....and others not.

But things can change. Portugal is a great example. It was doing so badly recently as on of the PIIGS countries, but now its touted as a success (Moody's upgraded its debt, unemployment is halved).

Based on your own country, did you expect the changes there?

Is all a bunch of crap those Moody's ratings and stuff.

Taxes where never higher in this country than they are now.

Before we had IRS...now we have all, plus VAT at 23% for most goods.

And most expensive electricity in EU, most expensive diesel, gasoline and gas in EU, most expensive cars in the world (after taxes)...

Plus PIIGS is a very derogatory comment that won't make you any friends in any of the supposed countries.

Sorry about that then, just thought it was a common acronym since all the news media use it.

Sure, taxes are up, but isn't the unemployment rate down and investment way up?

A man should never be ashamed to own that he is wrong, which is but saying in other words that he is wiser today than he was yesterday.
-Alexander Pope
09-11-2019 11:59 PM
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Rocha Offline
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RE: Ukraine’s libertarian revolution
(09-11-2019 11:59 PM)Blake2 Wrote:  
(09-11-2019 11:45 PM)Rocha Wrote:  
(09-11-2019 11:33 PM)Blake2 Wrote:  
(09-11-2019 11:17 PM)Rocha Wrote:  Do you want to purchase Ukraine Government bonds?

No, thank you.

Yah, some countries are able to inspire confidence in their economies....and others not.

But things can change. Portugal is a great example. It was doing so badly recently as on of the PIIGS countries, but now its touted as a success (Moody's upgraded its debt, unemployment is halved).

Based on your own country, did you expect the changes there?

Is all a bunch of crap those Moody's ratings and stuff.

Taxes where never higher in this country than they are now.

Before we had IRS...now we have all, plus VAT at 23% for most goods.

And most expensive electricity in EU, most expensive diesel, gasoline and gas in EU, most expensive cars in the world (after taxes)...

Plus PIIGS is a very derogatory comment that won't make you any friends in any of the supposed countries.

Sorry about that then, just thought it was a common acronym since all the news media use it.

Sure, taxes are up, but isn't the unemployment rate down and investment way up?

Is all about the tourism industry. Which has taken a hit this year (less one third then previous years) due to the scandalous prices (mostly in housing and real estate, but not only) for what the country (and specially Lisbon) has to offer.

Lisbon is more expensive than Algarve...this is something never heard about before. Typical small Portuguese mentality of banking all at once...that lead to many ships lying in the bottom of the oceans due to overload for example.

"Поехали!!" (Yuri Gagarin, 1961)

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(This post was last modified: 09-12-2019 12:08 AM by Rocha.)
09-12-2019 12:06 AM
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RE: Ukraine’s libertarian revolution
This won't work . Ukraine will remain a Jewish hub but it will take a lot of work to make Ukraine serious for business . Corruption is endemic and it will be worse and worse as prices will rise once all the Ukrainians in Poland / Slovakia / Germany etc will come back to invest in real estate
09-12-2019 03:14 AM
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RE: Ukraine’s libertarian revolution
Real estate in Ukraine is cheap as chips. Don't even care about earning money when you can just buy apartments in the center of the city for low 5 figures.

Ukraine and other poor countries need to copy Ireland and make themselves an attractive tax haven. Actually, a lot of worthless countries (like Canada) should be doing this before they completely implode.
09-12-2019 03:46 AM
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RE: Ukraine’s libertarian revolution
It s cheap for people from the outside . It s not cheap for local honest people. That s what you have to think about .
09-12-2019 04:17 AM
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Leonard D Neubache Offline
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RE: Ukraine’s libertarian revolution
For locals it will be a disaster as foreign investors turn their "backward" little nation into a usurious whorehouse.

The short term profits will be pocketed mostly by the crooks in parliament with just enough distributed to the commoners to give a false sense of a bright new dawn, but within a decade the only difference is that Ukrainians will be oppressed by foreigners who are beyond reach rather than fellow Ukrainians who are at least answerable to torches and pitchforks.

God demands of Man responsibility. God demands of Woman vulnerability. These are their curse and blessing alike. Libertianism is to Man as Feminism is to Woman.
09-12-2019 05:50 AM
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RE: Ukraine’s libertarian revolution
Agreed. But ukrainian "corruption" is a tough one ; I don't think the establishment will manage to make it attractive...
Apart from russian speakers and most of patriots noone in Europe likes Ukraine . It won't be as easy as integrating Czech Republic ; Poland etc... Mostly Ukraine will just like Belarus become a place where most people will be cheap labor once they emigrate ; and to keep this "workforce " cheap there is an incentive to NOT develop Ukraine .
09-12-2019 05:24 PM
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RE: Ukraine’s libertarian revolution
(09-12-2019 05:24 PM)Polniy_Sostav Wrote:  Agreed. But ukrainian "corruption" is a tough one ; I don't think the establishment will manage to make it attractive...
Apart from russian speakers and most of patriots noone in Europe likes Ukraine . It won't be as easy as integrating Czech Republic ; Poland etc... Mostly Ukraine will just like Belarus become a place where most people will be cheap labor once they emigrate ; and to keep this "workforce " cheap there is an incentive to NOT develop Ukraine .


I'm seeing signs the current government is not emphasizing people based reforms (ex. healthcare, police, etc.).

Instead, its all about bypassing people to get to maximum economic growth ASAP : land sales, privatization sales, casinos, amber mining, financial restrictions lifting, private investment in roads/rail, etc.


This may work as well if they go far enough.

You see, the idea is to make it so everything can be done online, automatically. The biggest obstacle to reform (corrupt, incompetent people) will be bypassed via digital solutions.

This way, the productive sectors of the economy (programming, agriculture, finance, mining, gambling, transport) will be unshackled.

The rest of the economy will sort of stagnate and wither away, but thats the harsh reality of capitalism. Eventually, the benefits are to trickle down to everyone else.

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09-12-2019 10:47 PM
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RE: Ukraine’s libertarian revolution
I don't think this will end well. It eerily reminds me of Yeltsin-era shock therapy.
09-12-2019 10:50 PM
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RE: Ukraine’s libertarian revolution
It is simply too early to predict any seismic changes. Zeliensky is making all the right noises, that is certainly true. But there are systems within systems here, and the president/parliament has relatively little power in Ukraine. This is a country with 100 years of history of developing alternative means of government, justice and business specifically to circumvent a hostile ruling class.

By way of example, casinos may be legalised, but who who knows anything of Ukraine thinks that a casino could be opened without a krisha? The existence of the building may be legalised, but the business itself will belong to the mafia. Of course, with casinos this is not a new story, here or anywhere else. But with land reforms and everything else, the money that stands to be made will lead to very tempting offers for ministers and decision makers in parliament to ensure that privatisation happens in favour of the right interests.

Ukraine's economy, to me, looks set to continue to depend on IT and Agriculture for the foreseeable future. I suspect we will see upwards progress, but I am not expecting a 'libertarian revolution'. In fact I think that would be disastrous if it were attempted. The biggest fear with the current government, in some respects, is that they are as ideologically libertarian and naive as they profess to be ("I don't know anything about politics" was one of Zeliensky's pitches during the election). If that is the case, there is a danger that they create a vacuum, which will simply be seized on as a chance for the existing strong actors outside govt to fill. If I were an Oligarch, Mini-garch, or Mafioso, I would be licking my lips at the prospect of some of what Zeliensky is proposing.

Ironically, historically, the presidency has been used as a tool by one oligarch or another to settle some scores, and make other oligarchs tow the line and reign in their excesses (to allow the incumbent president to steal more). This has had a certain moderating effect. Without this kind of backing, support, or ambition, there is a danger that this is the most vulnerable government Ukraine has had for some time.
09-13-2019 02:02 AM
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RE: Ukraine’s libertarian revolution
Haha, I just finished smashing my 2nd Ukrainian 'libertarian' that is an active member of their party - 5.10

Both her and the first were complete narcissists and believed they were saving Ukraine with their activism. Whenever we'd talk politics for more than 30 seconds it became plainly obvious they had no idea what libertarianism is, "less government means less corruption" seems to be the extent of their knowledge on the matter.

Any how, I'm all for it. 5.10 has really hot girls that they got drinking their kool aid and dressing in thin t-shirts with skimpy red shorts whenever they're out 'demonstrating'.

I'm thinking about becoming a member

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09-13-2019 05:25 AM
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RE: Ukraine’s libertarian revolution
Ha! "Libertarian Revolution"

That's code speak for "the post coup leadership is selling the few assets and natural resources the famously poor country has to his foreign co ethnics, and their collaborators like Joe Biden's son, for pennies on the dollar."
(This post was last modified: 09-13-2019 12:08 PM by Rotten.)
09-13-2019 12:07 PM
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RE: Ukraine’s libertarian revolution
(09-13-2019 05:25 AM)Barron Wrote:  Haha, I just finished smashing my 2nd Ukrainian 'libertarian' that is an active member of their party - 5.10

Both her and the first were complete narcissists and believed they were saving Ukraine with their activism. Whenever we'd talk politics for more than 30 seconds it became plainly obvious they had no idea what libertarianism is, "less government means less corruption" seems to be the extent of their knowledge on the matter.

Any how, I'm all for it. 5.10 has really hot girls that they got drinking their kool aid and dressing in thin t-shirts with skimpy red shorts whenever they're out 'demonstrating'.

I'm thinking about becoming a member

Young women are the ideological beachhead of (((globohomo))), they are the early adopters of neoliberal cultural marxism and the gatekeepers to the future of their country. Corrupt their values, and you destroy their countries.

Indulging in sterile serial sexual stints with these young women is not conducive to their long term welfare, or yours for that matter. You should instead choose the best one for you and build her up into the mother of your children, as the leader of your household.


The battle on the eastern front is a clash between those who seek to subvert Slavic nations and prevent them from rising from the cultural destruction of a century of (((Bolshevism))), and those who are standing against it, like Putin:









Once you understand this, you understand why Putin is Enemy Number One.

[Image: putin_inauguration_kirill_0.jpg]

λ ό γ ο ς
(This post was last modified: 09-13-2019 02:38 PM by 911.)
09-13-2019 02:34 PM
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RE: Ukraine’s libertarian revolution
(09-13-2019 05:25 AM)Barron Wrote:  Haha, I just finished smashing my 2nd Ukrainian 'libertarian' that is an active member of their party - 5.10

Both her and the first were complete narcissists and believed they were saving Ukraine with their activism. Whenever we'd talk politics for more than 30 seconds it became plainly obvious they had no idea what libertarianism is, "less government means less corruption" seems to be the extent of their knowledge on the matter.

Any how, I'm all for it. 5.10 has really hot girls that they got drinking their kool aid and dressing in thin t-shirts with skimpy red shorts whenever they're out 'demonstrating'.

I'm thinking about becoming a member

I think you would be more useful for the world and Ukraine marrying and having kids
09-14-2019 10:17 AM
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RE: Ukraine’s libertarian revolution
(09-13-2019 02:34 PM)911 Wrote:  Once you understand this, you understand why Putin is Enemy Number One.

In Ukraine or Russia religion is far less important here than in the US and there is a huge rate of nominalism. The young people are all about iPhones, cars, and clothes. Globalization has been at work here for a long time already.


Most of the Orthodox clergy is corrupt and also seeks to make money. (Just look at the cash fees they charge for baptism.)
I've seen first hand how they profit from blessing icons, homes, and even cars. When visiting a monastery I was asked to pay to take a photo of some flowers.

Orthodox priest in his expensive brand new car:

[Image: acec6fb3b8500f7d0de18f4c9bc450f1.png]


Just look at this fat sack of lard:

[Image: cercov.jpg]

Glutton

You're absolutely right that the world needs good values and and a strong moral tradition. But the search to find it is still ongoing.

When you find it, let me know.
I'll be reading the bible and praying in my home.

A man should never be ashamed to own that he is wrong, which is but saying in other words that he is wiser today than he was yesterday.
-Alexander Pope
(This post was last modified: 09-14-2019 12:49 PM by Blake2.)
09-14-2019 12:45 PM
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RE: Ukraine’s libertarian revolution
Have you been up to the Lavra yet? If you walk into the right part, you will see as fine a collection of Bentleys and Mercedes as in any oligarch's driveway.

It is also quite possible to bump into your local priest gambling with the collection money at unlicensed casinos across Ukraine.
09-15-2019 01:38 AM
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RE: Ukraine’s libertarian revolution
Agreed! the Kyiv Lavra (run by the Orthodox Church of Russia) is full of corruption.

I haven't seen the new splinter Ukrainian Orthodox churches, but I assume the same.

I met an honest , independent Orthodox Priest in the USA and attended services there. He told me his church has nothing to do with the Eastern European churches but I didn't understand why until I saw with my own eyes.

A man should never be ashamed to own that he is wrong, which is but saying in other words that he is wiser today than he was yesterday.
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09-15-2019 02:04 AM
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RE: Ukraine’s libertarian revolution
(09-15-2019 01:38 AM)H1N1 Wrote:  Have you been up to the Lavra yet? If you walk into the right part, you will see as fine a collection of Bentleys and Mercedes as in any oligarch's driveway.

It is also quite possible to bump into your local priest gambling with the collection money at unlicensed casinos across Ukraine.

Absolutely.
09-15-2019 08:27 AM
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Post: #23
RE: Ukraine’s libertarian revolution
That's sad, the gambling stuff if true.

One thing I've noticed (as a trend, not saying this is a rule or in call cases) with slavic orthodox as compared to other orthodox ethnicities is that they are much cheaper. This is part of the equation of people's expectations for free (trying to guilt the christian to do it because isn't poverty your thing?) while being nominal. Similar to the jews that go to the high holidays maybe twice a year and as a result, the actual congregations make them pay for their not-so-devoted time for the "new year" and "atonement".

Get your passport ready!
09-15-2019 05:57 PM
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RE: Ukraine’s libertarian revolution
@KidTwist

Well, it certainly makes for a profitable business.

A man should never be ashamed to own that he is wrong, which is but saying in other words that he is wiser today than he was yesterday.
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09-16-2019 07:20 AM
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Belgrano Online
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RE: Ukraine’s libertarian revolution
(09-13-2019 05:25 AM)Barron Wrote:  Haha, I just finished smashing my 2nd Ukrainian 'libertarian' that is an active member of their party - 5.10

Both her and the first were complete narcissists and believed they were saving Ukraine with their activism.

All activism is rooted in narcissism.
09-16-2019 07:57 AM
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