I'm Touring The United States! Starting in June, I'm conducting private events in 23 American cities. Click here for full details.

Post Reply 
The Catholic Church thread
Author Message
MichaelWitcoff Online
Woodpecker
**

Posts: 380
Joined: Jan 2019
Reputation: 11
Post: #151
RE: The Catholic Church thread
(09-21-2019 04:31 AM)bucky Wrote:  
(09-20-2019 09:07 PM)Westcoast99 Wrote:  ^Support for mass third world immigration, abolishment of capital punishment, and other marxist positions are not Catholicism, but a reflection of a new church created at Vatican Council II (1965). A new religion, with a new liturgy that came a few years later. Totally inconsistent with previous church teachings.

I hear the claim that Vatican II corrupted the church a lot, but I don't know much about it. I'd love to see a thread about Vatican II and how specifically it changed the church. I know about verso populo instead of verso deo and the decline in saying mass in Latin, but that's about it. I read through the wikipedia article once, but I don't recall anything particularly sinister.

I've also heard the claim that a large number of liberal nuns got into the US church after Vatican II and that they were responsible for letting homosexuals into the seminary and subsequently the clergy, but again, I don't really know true that is.

Check out Bella Dodd's confessions. She was one of the revolutionaries who helped flood the RCC with subversives, then later repented and became Catholic.

Return Of Kings contributor and best-selling author of "On The Masons And Their Lies."
09-21-2019 04:42 AM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 9 users Like MichaelWitcoff's post:
bucky, 911, debeguiled, ilostabet, Handsome Creepy Eel, NoMoreTO, rotekz, Syberpunk, Jones
Leonard D Neubache Offline
Owl
******
Gold Member

Posts: 11,677
Joined: Mar 2016
Reputation: 209
Post: #152
RE: The Catholic Church thread
(09-20-2019 12:56 PM)Mage Wrote:  ...

First it wants no rules, wants to enjoy gross pleasures to fullest - it's secular materialism

Then it wants some spiritual rules to contain it's former craziness - it's scriptural religions with dogmas and priesthood or gurus.

After that it's mature and can walk on it's own without falling into hedonism - it's time for spirituality involving meditation and personal experience rather then scriptures.
...

I don't like to take yards when the other guy is in the penalty box but how does anyone figure that a Christian is not capable of engaging in "spirituality involving meditation and personal experience"?

God demands of Man responsibility. God demands of Woman vulnerability. These are their curse and blessing alike. Libertianism is to Man as Feminism is to Woman.
(This post was last modified: 09-21-2019 09:18 AM by Leonard D Neubache.)
09-21-2019 09:17 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 4 users Like Leonard D Neubache's post:
debeguiled, ilostabet, Handsome Creepy Eel, infowarrior1
Westcoast99 Offline
Sparrow

Posts: 57
Joined: Dec 2017
Reputation: 0
Post: #153
RE: The Catholic Church thread
The only logical position you can take as someone who correctly rejects Vatican II as a heretical council is the Sedevacantist position- latin meaning the see is vacant, and by see we are referring to see of Peter, Bishop of Rome.

All the Catholic churches, schools, and clergy ceased to remain Catholic and entered the Vatican II religion. A similar thing happened during the Anglican schism when King Henry VIII was able to get a significant number of bishops to flip, and enter his church.
09-21-2019 01:15 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 1 user Likes Westcoast99's post:
BBinger
bucky Offline
Kingfisher
***

Posts: 519
Joined: Nov 2015
Reputation: 3
Post: #154
RE: The Catholic Church thread
(09-21-2019 01:15 PM)Westcoast99 Wrote:  The only logical position you can take as someone who correctly rejects Vatican II as a heretical council is the Sedevacantist position- latin meaning the see is vacant, and by see we are referring to see of Peter, Bishop of Rome.

All the Catholic churches, schools, and clergy ceased to remain Catholic and entered the Vatican II religion. A similar thing happened during the Anglican schism when King Henry VIII was able to get a significant number of bishops to flip, and enter his church.

What were the most important specific differences after Vatican II that led the RCC into apostasy?

Feminism in ten words: "Stop objectifying women! Can't you see I've hit the wall?" -Leonard D Neubache
09-21-2019 05:16 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 1 user Likes bucky's post:
Handsome Creepy Eel
Easy_C Offline
Crow
*****

Posts: 4,089
Joined: Oct 2014
Reputation: 28
Post: #155
RE: The Catholic Church thread
(09-21-2019 09:17 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  
(09-20-2019 12:56 PM)Mage Wrote:  ...

First it wants no rules, wants to enjoy gross pleasures to fullest - it's secular materialism

Then it wants some spiritual rules to contain it's former craziness - it's scriptural religions with dogmas and priesthood or gurus.

After that it's mature and can walk on it's own without falling into hedonism - it's time for spirituality involving meditation and personal experience rather then scriptures.
...

I don't like to take yards when the other guy is in the penalty box but how does anyone figure that a Christian is not capable of engaging in "spirituality involving meditation and personal experience"?

I see that attitude a lot. It tends to come from people who think Christianity is synonymous with the bible thumping, self help sessions that are the most prominent face of the religion in the form of televangelist sermons.

To play devil's advocate, if my first exposure to Christianity was something like Chik tracts I'd think the religion was insane.
09-21-2019 07:08 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 3 users Like Easy_C's post:
Leonard D Neubache, infowarrior1, Jones
Sword and Board Offline
Sparrow

Posts: 122
Joined: May 2019
Reputation: 1
Post: #156
RE: The Catholic Church thread
From my understanding the Vatican II dogma was heavily pushed after the chosenites had basically conquered the world through proxy with world war 2.
The grabblers now with such power, influence and protection put immense pressure on the Catholic church implicating them in the Holocaust hysteria.

I wouldn't be surprised if this reform was mostly their doing. It certainly fits their millennia old grudge and wrathful fantasies against Catholics and Christians and the machinations they have been doing to bring about its destruction for centuries.
09-21-2019 07:20 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 3 users Like Sword and Board's post:
Syberpunk, Jones, 911
bucky Offline
Kingfisher
***

Posts: 519
Joined: Nov 2015
Reputation: 3
Post: #157
RE: The Catholic Church thread
(09-21-2019 07:20 PM)Sword and Board Wrote:  From my understanding the Vatican II dogma was heavily pushed after the chosenites had basically conquered the world through proxy with world war 2.
The grabblers now with such power, influence and protection put immense pressure on the Catholic church implicating them in the Holocaust hysteria.

I wouldn't be surprised if this reform was mostly their doing. It certainly fits their millennia old grudge and wrathful fantasies against Catholics and Christians and the machinations they have been doing to bring about its destruction for centuries.

But what specific Vatican II reforms corrupted the church?

Feminism in ten words: "Stop objectifying women! Can't you see I've hit the wall?" -Leonard D Neubache
09-21-2019 07:24 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Westcoast99 Offline
Sparrow

Posts: 57
Joined: Dec 2017
Reputation: 0
Post: #158
RE: The Catholic Church thread
Bucky- Vatican II documents are public record, but to summarize they represent ecumenism and religious liberty, both ideas that were taught against by previous popes specifically Pius IX.

After Vatican II Spain had to actually alter its constitution to accommodate other religions.
09-21-2019 09:07 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
bucky Offline
Kingfisher
***

Posts: 519
Joined: Nov 2015
Reputation: 3
Post: #159
RE: The Catholic Church thread
(09-21-2019 09:07 PM)Westcoast99 Wrote:  Bucky- Vatican II documents are public record, but to summarize they represent ecumenism and religious liberty, both ideas that were taught against by previous popes specifically Pius IX.

After Vatican II Spain had to actually alter its constitution to accommodate other religions.

I figured that someone who makes the claim could give a better answer than "do your own research." I'm not even Catholic, so I'm not sure I'd really see the differences that bother believers in the RCC. I've read the wikipedia article on Vatican II and nothing made much of an impression on me, aside from marginalizing the Latin mass and verso popolo instead of verso deo, both of which seem more matters of form than substance.

Thanks for at least providing general clues though. If anyone else out there can give more details on what was bad about Vatican II, that would be great.

Feminism in ten words: "Stop objectifying women! Can't you see I've hit the wall?" -Leonard D Neubache
09-22-2019 04:14 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
An0dyne Offline
Pigeon

Posts: 20
Joined: Aug 2019
Reputation: 0
Post: #160
RE: The Catholic Church thread
(09-22-2019 04:14 AM)bucky Wrote:  
(09-21-2019 09:07 PM)Westcoast99 Wrote:  Bucky- Vatican II documents are public record, but to summarize they represent ecumenism and religious liberty, both ideas that were taught against by previous popes specifically Pius IX.

After Vatican II Spain had to actually alter its constitution to accommodate other religions.

I figured that someone who makes the claim could give a better answer than "do your own research." I'm not even Catholic, so I'm not sure I'd really see the differences that bother believers in the RCC. I've read the wikipedia article on Vatican II and nothing made much of an impression on me, aside from marginalizing the Latin mass and verso popolo instead of verso deo, both of which seem more matters of form than substance.

Thanks for at least providing general clues though. If anyone else out there can give more details on what was bad about Vatican II, that would be great.

Full disclosure: Not a member of Rome, though I was baptized by a Roman priest. But to summarize:

Essentially Vatican II backtracks a lot of what Trent put forth (Anathematizing protestants and all that, codifying the Latin Mass, etc.). Actually, Vatican II represents a lot of liturgical suggestions from Luther himself (vernacular, versus populum, expanded lectionary, etc.). More concerningly, recent post-Vatican II documents (like the Catechism of the Catholic Church) suggest that not only protestants, but non-Christians can be saved. This is highly concerning. There are a number of other "liberalizing" tendencies afoot, but I'd say these are the ones that get people riled up the most.
09-22-2019 05:12 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 8 users Like An0dyne's post:
Syberpunk, bucky, NoMoreTO, rotekz, Ruslan, BBinger, Augustus_Principe, 911
Athanasius Offline
Sparrow

Posts: 75
Joined: Jul 2019
Reputation: 1
Post: #161
RE: The Catholic Church thread
The Protestant anathemas have never been removed. And I say this as a Protestant who believes that Trent, in its reaction to the reformation, anathematized the gospel itself.

The Roman magisterium is today universalist and indistinguishable from subversive-stage protestantism. This is the point where the liberals outnumber conservatives in the leadership and would like to just come out and admit they don't believe the church's historical teachings, but they don't because there's still a lot of opposition and there are, after all, budgets to uphold. Thus a period of uneasy "don't ask, don't tell" unity mixed with subtle, subversive statements and actions. I suspect there is a lot more McCarricks in the magisterium as well. In protestant churches which have fallen, these periods don't last forever and something usually gives. It'll be interesting to see where Rome goes in the next generation.
09-22-2019 03:05 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 1 user Likes Athanasius's post:
BBinger
Easy_C Offline
Crow
*****

Posts: 4,089
Joined: Oct 2014
Reputation: 28
Post: #162
RE: The Catholic Church thread
They don’t admit they don’t believe because they can’t. With the way the Catholic Church is structured doctrinally to say that you’re against the church would instantly mean that the worshipers can no longer recognize your authority. For them to do what they do requires passing themselves off as believers.
09-22-2019 06:19 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 1 user Likes Easy_C's post:
bucky
An0dyne Offline
Pigeon

Posts: 20
Joined: Aug 2019
Reputation: 0
Post: #163
RE: The Catholic Church thread
(09-22-2019 03:05 PM)Athanasius Wrote:  The Protestant anathemas have never been removed. And I say this as a Protestant who believes that Trent, in its reaction to the reformation, anathematized the gospel itself.

Yes, formally Trent is still "on the books," but functionally the modern Catechism is very clear about "ecclesial communions" being mysteriously in communion with Rome somehow, along with pious pagans and the lot of them. To wit:

Part One, Section Two, Article 9, Paragraph 3 Wrote:"Many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276".

And:

Quote:The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."330

842 The Church's bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:

"All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .331
843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332


And finally:

Quote:Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
09-23-2019 03:40 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Augustus_Principe Offline
Pigeon

Posts: 48
Joined: May 2019
Reputation: 1
Post: #164
RE: The Catholic Church thread
(09-20-2019 08:54 PM)bucky Wrote:  
(09-20-2019 11:50 AM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  No worries debeguiled, this whole thread is a train wreck. Everyone is defensive and any joke or comment can be taken as an attack.

Kona would be pleased.

Well, I'm enjoying the back-and-forth between Mage and the hardcore Christians, acrimonious as it is. I'm probably in an unusually good position to do that. I'm not Catholic but married to a devout Catholic, and there's a lot I like about the RCC (like their stance on abortion, and their preparing a nice, traditional wife for me who was a virgin before I met her) and a lot I don't (like their support of mass third world immigration) . I'm Christian but not of the type who has a visceral reaction to neo-Paganism. I even vaguely considered the Norse variety myself for a while, but then I realized that I'll never literally believe in Thor and Odin, whereas I do literally believe in Jesus.

Maybe there should be two separate threads, one for Catholics and sympathizers, another for debating the merits, or lack thereof, of the RCC.

I would recommend you watch this video on Immigration In regards to the Catholic church. Priest also goes to quote many bible verses that show support for walls and NOT open borders. Finally, speaking against modernism:





I recommend subscribing to that channel.


Catechism:

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a4.htm#2241

2241 The more prosperous nations are obliged, to the extent they are able, to welcome the foreigner in search of the security and the means of livelihood which he cannot find in his country of origin. Public authorities should see to it that the natural right is respected that places a guest under the protection of those who receive him.

Political authorities, for the sake of the common good for which they are responsible, may make the exercise of the right to immigrate subject to various juridical conditions, especially with regard to the immigrants' duties toward their country of adoption. Immigrants are obliged to respect with gratitude the material and spiritual heritage of the country that receives them, to obey its laws and to assist in carrying civic burdens.



Not quite open borders as many have been led to believe. Any priest/catholic advocating for open borders is a leftist hack.
(This post was last modified: 09-23-2019 09:47 AM by Augustus_Principe.)
09-23-2019 09:43 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 2 users Like Augustus_Principe's post:
bucky, NoMoreTO
bucky Offline
Kingfisher
***

Posts: 519
Joined: Nov 2015
Reputation: 3
Post: #165
RE: The Catholic Church thread
(09-23-2019 09:43 AM)Augustus_Principe Wrote:  
(09-20-2019 08:54 PM)bucky Wrote:  
(09-20-2019 11:50 AM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  No worries debeguiled, this whole thread is a train wreck. Everyone is defensive and any joke or comment can be taken as an attack.

Kona would be pleased.

Well, I'm enjoying the back-and-forth between Mage and the hardcore Christians, acrimonious as it is. I'm probably in an unusually good position to do that. I'm not Catholic but married to a devout Catholic, and there's a lot I like about the RCC (like their stance on abortion, and their preparing a nice, traditional wife for me who was a virgin before I met her) and a lot I don't (like their support of mass third world immigration) . I'm Christian but not of the type who has a visceral reaction to neo-Paganism. I even vaguely considered the Norse variety myself for a while, but then I realized that I'll never literally believe in Thor and Odin, whereas I do literally believe in Jesus.

Maybe there should be two separate threads, one for Catholics and sympathizers, another for debating the merits, or lack thereof, of the RCC.

I would recommend you watch this video on Immigration In regards to the Catholic church. Priest also goes to quote many bible verses that show support for walls and NOT open borders. Finally, speaking against modernism:





I recommend subscribing to that channel.


Catechism:

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a4.htm#2241

2241 The more prosperous nations are obliged, to the extent they are able, to welcome the foreigner in search of the security and the means of livelihood which he cannot find in his country of origin. Public authorities should see to it that the natural right is respected that places a guest under the protection of those who receive him.

Political authorities, for the sake of the common good for which they are responsible, may make the exercise of the right to immigrate subject to various juridical conditions, especially with regard to the immigrants' duties toward their country of adoption. Immigrants are obliged to respect with gratitude the material and spiritual heritage of the country that receives them, to obey its laws and to assist in carrying civic burdens.



Not quite open borders as many have been led to believe. Any priest/catholic advocating for open borders is a leftist hack.

"Leftist hack" definitely sounds like a decent description of a few of the priests I've met here in the US. It's strange how different it is from Central America, where you'd see priests openly calling feminism Satanic, encouraging people to avoid daydreaming about getting to the US or Europe, an giving good fire-and-brimestone sermons with black-and-white morality.

I'll check out that video as soon as I can.

Feminism in ten words: "Stop objectifying women! Can't you see I've hit the wall?" -Leonard D Neubache
09-23-2019 01:02 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 2 users Like bucky's post:
Augustus_Principe, NoMoreTO
Augustus_Principe Offline
Pigeon

Posts: 48
Joined: May 2019
Reputation: 1
Post: #166
RE: The Catholic Church thread
"Leftist hack" definitely sounds like a decent description of a few of the priests I've met here in the US. It's strange how different it is from Central America, where you'd see priests openly calling feminism Satanic, encouraging people to avoid daydreaming about getting to the US or Europe, an giving good fire-and-brimestone sermons with black-and-white morality.

I'll check out that video as soon as I can."


No worries! The Catholics trying to uphold the traditional values of the Church are usually labeled "Traditional Catholics" or "TradCaths". If you go on twitter, you will see that politically, Catholics are divided into right and left. Although there seems to be more Right-Wing Catholics than lefties as far as those who are members of the church, the RCC has unfortunately been infiltrated by bad actors(leftist globohomo people) for the past 50 years or so. E Michael Jones goes into this deep. If you're interested, you can look him up on Bitchute or go on his website CultureWars.com

You also have to remember that America is the epicenter of Degeneracy, so of course you will see all forms of institutions here corrupted and at their worst. In central/eastern Europe, the Catholic church is still greatly respected. As you noted, the same can be said for certain latin American countries as well.
(This post was last modified: 09-23-2019 03:05 PM by Augustus_Principe.)
09-23-2019 03:05 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 1 user Likes Augustus_Principe's post:
bucky
Samseau Offline
Owl
******
Gold Member

Posts: 14,517
Joined: Mar 2010
Reputation: 293
Post: #167
RE: The Catholic Church thread
The Catholic Church suffers from having centralized authority. The Pope is a heresy, and the Churches that refused to recognize the heresy became the Orthodox Church.

The Pope does not exist anywhere in the Bible, yet using the most ridiculous logic I have ever seen Catholics claim to have the seat of Peter just because he was executed in Rome (like saying you own a man's ideas because you murdered him and took his house).

All of the declines in Christianity follow the great schism. Mandatory celibacy for Priests, 4th crusade, Protestant Reformation, Vatican II, and now the wholesale destruction of Europe is a result of having a Pope that can become corrupted and lead the rest of the Church into hell.

As an aside, Protestantism reacted to the heresy of the Pope by declaring no one could be an authority on the Bible, which has also failed spectacularly in modern times.

The Orthodox Church will remain as the last bastion of Christianity going forward because it's political structure is highly resistant to corruption. We are divided amongst 6 Patriarchs across the world, each with their own roster of Bishops, so if one Patriarch starts to go insane (and it happens quite often) the other Patriarchs form alliances against him and limit the damage he can do until he passes away in old age. When new blood comes in, the damage can be fixed and the Church rolls on.

What does any of this have to do with Catholicism? Well, if "TradCaths" (i.e. normal Christians) want to see a Church worth a damn in their lifetime, then they should work to abolish the Pope and undo the nonsense in their Church until it resembles something very close to how Orthodox Churches are run. Then the two lungs of the Church should re-open communion with one another and work together as a single Church with similar goals.

The best proof of Orthodoxy's superior Church structure can be seen in how Satan has almost exclusively used mass violence against Orthodox churches to try and destroy it instead of bringing the Orthodox down from within like the Catholics and Protestants. Because Satan could not fatally corrupt us, he instead has unleashed Islam and Communism over the centuries to try and murder the devout who were led faithfully by the oldest Church. Satan would not have done this if he could have corrupted us from within.

Meanwhile, Europe, once a bastion of Catholic Christianity, is utterly hollowed out with the worst bouts of Atheism in the world. The Popes have so abused their power over the centuries, they ended up discrediting Christianity in the eyes of hundreds of millions and doomed untold numbers of people to hell.

The same fate of atheist Europe awaits all countries that remain Catholic with the same heresy of the Pope. Catholics must get rid of the Pope, or just switch to Orthodox churches (which they will be forced to do at one point or another if they don't fix their Church). The Catholic Church did not have a Pope for nearly 1000 years before a group of (most likely sodomites) power hungry Bishops hijacked the Western Church and created the Pope out of thin air.

Until Catholics confront the mountain of lies within their history, they and their people will continue to suffer and many will be lost to eternal damnation. The next Pope after Francis will be worse than he is, and he will go to work exploiting his Church until the millenniums of inertia carrying them finally stops (will still take at least another 200 years from now, so great is the previous momentum).

Yet nowhere do I see advocacy for the abolishment of the Pope, even guys like E. Mike Jones defends the concept of the Pope against all logic. His crusade to save his Church is doomed to fail because they are starting with a flawed premise.

The only singular leader of the Church is Jesus Christ. No one else. The Pope acts like he has the authority of Christ and it is an abomination before the eyes of God, so he turns his back on that Church and Satan is able to corrupt the clergy easily.

Catholics need to wake up if they wish to save their Church.

Contributor at Return of Kings. You can follow me on Gab.

Be sure to check out the easiest mining program around, FreedomXMR.
09-23-2019 07:53 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 3 users Like Samseau's post:
Ruslan, debeguiled, Emperor Constantine
Leonard D Neubache Offline
Owl
******
Gold Member

Posts: 11,677
Joined: Mar 2016
Reputation: 209
Post: #168
RE: The Catholic Church thread
(09-23-2019 07:53 PM)Samseau Wrote:  ...The Pope acts like he has the authority of Christ and it is an abomination before the eyes of God,
...

Read this sentence very carefully.

God demands of Man responsibility. God demands of Woman vulnerability. These are their curse and blessing alike. Libertianism is to Man as Feminism is to Woman.
09-23-2019 09:20 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 2 users Like Leonard D Neubache's post:
Jones, NoMoreTO
NoMoreTO Offline
Kingfisher
***

Posts: 766
Joined: Jan 2018
Reputation: 12
Post: #169
RE: The Catholic Church thread
Welcome to the Catholic Thread.

(09-23-2019 07:53 PM)Samseau Wrote:  The Catholic Church suffers from having centralized authority. The Pope is a heresy, and the Churches that refused to recognize the heresy became the Orthodox Church.
Jesus gave Peter the Authority over the Church. This includes Eastern Apostolic Churches.
"'I will give you the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven, Whatever you bind on Earth is bound in Heaven" Matthew 16:19


(09-23-2019 07:53 PM)Samseau Wrote:  The Pope does not exist anywhere in the Bible, yet using the most ridiculous logic I have ever seen Catholics claim to have the seat of Peter just because he was executed in Rome (like saying you own a man's ideas because you murdered him and took his house).

Are you a Bible Belt Orthodox Protestant?

(09-23-2019 07:53 PM)Samseau Wrote:  All of the declines in Christianity follow the great schism. Mandatory celibacy for Priests, 4th crusade, Protestant Reformation, Vatican II, and now the wholesale destruction of Europe is a result of having a Pope that can become corrupted and lead the rest of the Church into hell.

The great Schism did not help Christianity. I will agree with you on that.

The word Church by nature means Body and all Catholics are part of the Body.

Your argument that having a Pope creates the possibility of a single man being corrupted and destroying the Church is weak. There have been heretical Popes and the Church has survived Heretical Pope

(09-23-2019 07:53 PM)Samseau Wrote:  The Orthodox Church will remain as the last bastion of Christianity going forward because it's political structure is highly resistant to corruption. We are divided amongst 6 Patriarchs across the world, each with their own roster of Bishops, so if one Patriarch starts to go insane (and it happens quite often) the other Patriarchs form alliances against him and limit the damage he can do until he passes away in old age. When new blood comes in, the damage can be fixed and the Church rolls on.

11 Apostles abandoned Jesus at the Cross. Only John was at the foot of the Cross because he was with the Virgin Mary. Praying the Rosary is the key here, not political structure. This isn't the US constitution.

(09-23-2019 07:53 PM)Samseau Wrote:  What does any of this have to do with Catholicism? Well, if "TradCaths" (i.e. normal Christians) want to see a Church worth a damn in their lifetime, then they should work to abolish the Pope and undo the nonsense in their Church

Traditional Latin Mass is Excellent. Consider going to a High Mass then come back.

(09-23-2019 07:53 PM)Samseau Wrote:  The best proof of Orthodoxy's superior Church structure can be seen in how Satan has almost exclusively used mass violence against Orthodox churches to try and destroy it instead of bringing the Orthodox down from within like the Catholics and Protestants. Because Satan could not fatally corrupt us, he instead has unleashed Islam and Communism over the centuries to try and murder the devout who were led faithfully by the oldest Church. Satan would not have done this if he could have corrupted us from within.

To create Islam, wouldn't Christians have to convert? I assume many were martyred also, but obviously Muslims in Turkey, Syria, Egypt, were once Christians.

Communism was created by Jews, but the Russian people participated in it. You can say that what is going on in Europe, & USA is worse than communism, but people still as of this moment have freedom to practice their religion.

Your argument is flawed in that it attributes anything bad that happens to E. Orthodox Church as external, and anything bad that happens to Catholic Church as Papal Corruption.

(09-23-2019 07:53 PM)Samseau Wrote:  The same fate of atheist Europe awaits all countries that remain Catholic with the same heresy of the Pope. Catholics must get rid of the Pope, or just switch to Orthodox churches …..

In 1965, Pope Paul VI and the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople Athenagoras I nullified the anathemas of 1054.

(09-23-2019 07:53 PM)Samseau Wrote:  Catholics need to wake up if they wish to save their Church.

Catholics need to wake up if they wish to save the Church.

“Where the danger is, so grows the saving element.” ~ German poet Hoelderlin
(This post was last modified: 09-23-2019 10:53 PM by NoMoreTO.)
09-23-2019 10:41 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 1 user Likes NoMoreTO's post:
debeguiled
Roosh Offline
Eagle
*******

Posts: 19,019
Joined: Aug 2008
Reputation: 417
Post: #170
RE: The Catholic Church thread
Great talk by Catholic priest on the plight of men and the state of the Catholic church:


Roosh
http://www.rooshv.com
09-24-2019 12:37 AM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 4 users Like Roosh's post:
MichaelWitcoff, rotekz, debeguiled, wisdom_187
MichaelWitcoff Online
Woodpecker
**

Posts: 380
Joined: Jan 2019
Reputation: 11
Post: #171
RE: The Catholic Church thread
@Samseau, that's not entirely accurate. If you read through the pre-schism Church Fathers and Saints, you will find plenty of people in both the East and the West who recognized the primacy of Rome. This was largely due not only to its being the largest Patriarchate of the ancient 5 major ones, but also because it had received the doctrines directly from both Peter and Paul before they were martyred. Rome was often looked to in the ancient Christian world as the example of having everything in proper order, and there are examples of other Churches writing them to ask for help on certain topics (a good example is the First Epistle of Clement, who is mentioned in the Scriptures and became 4th Pope of Rome, in which he responds to some questions asked of him by the Corinthian Church regarding rebellious young parishioners trying to overthrow their holy priest).

You will also find writers on both sides of the fence regarding whether the "Rock" spoken of in Scriptures referred to Peter as a person, or his confession of faith. St. Augustine began his ministry believing it referred to Peter as an individual, then later retracted that opinion and never solved the problem (leaving it basically up to the reader of his book "Retractions" to decide which was the correct interpretation). Even St. John Chrysostom recognized Peter's primacy, referring to him as the "prince of the Apostles" because he was the first-called of them all.

HOWEVER...

The big break in the view of Rome was over whether papal primacy was the same as papal supremacy / universal jurisdiction, meaning whether the Pope had the head seat at the table OR was everyone else's boss to whom they all owed obedience. You will NOT find the other Patriarchs bowing to Rome or demonstrating the kind of submission that Roman Catholics like to say existed from the very beginning. One of the pre-schism Roman Popes, I forget which one, even wrote that if any future leader claimed universal jurisdiction, that person was a precursor to the Antichrist. The view of "papal infallibility," another topic of contention between East and West, arose over the issue of the Immaculate Conception (which refers to the immaculate conception of St. Mary, NOT of Jesus).

It was never a dogma of the Church, though some people believed in it. Eventually the Roman Pope decided, I believe in the 9th century, that it was true because he said it was true, as a way of squashing the debate and giving uniformity to the Church's beliefs. The downside of that, of course, was that he needed to justify the belief that whatever he said on dogma was automatically true - hence the invention of "papal infallibility" on the topics of doctrine and dogma (but only when the Pope speaks from his Papal throne, known as an "ex cathedra" statement). This, of course, is absolutely nowhere in the Apostolic teachings and even Peter himself was incorrect about maintaining Jewish ceremonies - and rebuked to his face by Paul. It was purely an invention and innovation of the increasing power-hungriness of the Papal station, in my opinion and that of many others.

Lastly, the Protestant Reformation didn't initially start over Papal authority at all. Martin Luther defended the Papal office and magisterium several times in his initial 95 Theses - he was mostly upset, with good justification (heh) , over the sale of indulgences as a way to raise money for St. Peter's Basilica in Rome. There was a clergyman in his area telling people they could pay money to get their relatives out of purgatory - and Luther was correctly horrified by this. He wrote his archbishop to complain, not realizing the archbishop was completely in on the scam, and Luther and the Roman Catholic Church started to butt heads more and more until his latent mania erupted into what the Reformation eventually turned into. But in the first round he just wanted to debate about indulgences; it had nothing whatsoever to do with the Bible or its interpretation. For a very good, but VERY Protestant-leaning biography of Martin Luther, check out the one written by Eric Metaxas.

Europe would have been spared many problems if Luther had just become Orthodox instead of giving into his delusions of grandeur, and at one point he even acknowledged that "the truth is with the Greeks" (ie, the Orthodox). Also, as a random side note, I just found out yesterday that Leo Tolstoy was very bluntly and loudly excommunicated from the Orthodox Church for essentially trying to start an anarchist / pacifist reformation of sorts in Orthodoxy. The Russian Church despised him for his anti-clerical, anti-sacramental views. Which does help prove your point, that I agree with, that Orthodoxy is far more immune to corruption than the RCC is (though there are subversives, mainly operating out of Fordham University, hard at work trying to change that).

Return Of Kings contributor and best-selling author of "On The Masons And Their Lies."
(This post was last modified: 09-24-2019 05:58 AM by MichaelWitcoff.)
09-24-2019 05:48 AM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 4 users Like MichaelWitcoff's post:
rotekz, Augustus_Principe, debeguiled, Samseau
NoMoreTO Offline
Kingfisher
***

Posts: 766
Joined: Jan 2018
Reputation: 12
Post: #172
RE: The Catholic Church thread
Exclusive Interview with Cardinal Sarah (aka Based Future Black Pope)

On the Roman Rite (Traditional Latin Mass)
Quote:...young people have entrusted me with their absolute preference for the extraordinary form, more educative and more insistent on the primacy and centrality of God, silence and on the meaning of the sacred and divine transcendence. But, above all, how can we understand, how can we not be surprised and deeply shocked that what was the rule yesterday is prohibited today? Is it not true that prohibiting or suspecting the extraordinary form can only be inspired by the demon who desires our suffocation and spiritual death?

On Gender Ideology & Western Decline
Quote:Gender ideology is a Luciferic refusal to receive a sexual nature from God. The West refuses to receive; it only accepts what it builds itself. Transhumanism is the ultimate avatar of this movement. Even human nature, because it is a gift from God, becomes unbearable to the Western man

This revolt is in its spiritual essence. It is Satan’s revolt against the gift of grace. Basically, I believe that the Western man refuses to be saved by pure mercy. He refuses to receive salvation and wants to build it by himself. The “Western values” promoted by the U.N. are based on a refusal of God that I compare to that of the rich young man in the Gospel. God looked at the West and loved it because it did great things. He invited the West to go further, but the West turned away, preferring the riches it owed only to itself. Africans know that they are poor and small before God. They are proud to kneel, happy to be dependent on an Almighty Creator and Father.

“Where the danger is, so grows the saving element.” ~ German poet Hoelderlin
(This post was last modified: 09-24-2019 10:59 AM by NoMoreTO.)
09-24-2019 10:59 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 3 users Like NoMoreTO's post:
debeguiled, wwtl, Samseau
bucky Offline
Kingfisher
***

Posts: 519
Joined: Nov 2015
Reputation: 3
Post: #173
RE: The Catholic Church thread
(09-24-2019 05:48 AM)MichaelWitcoff Wrote:  You will NOT find the other Patriarchs bowing to Rome or demonstrating the kind of submission that Roman Catholics like to say existed from the very beginning. One of the pre-schism Roman Popes, I forget which one, even wrote that if any future leader claimed universal jurisdiction, that person was a precursor to the Antichrist.

That's very interesting, and something I've never heard. If you remember the name of that specific Bishop of Rome or if anyone else knows it, please reply here.

Feminism in ten words: "Stop objectifying women! Can't you see I've hit the wall?" -Leonard D Neubache
09-24-2019 11:07 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
debeguiled Offline
Peacock
******
Gold Member

Posts: 7,481
Joined: Aug 2014
Reputation: 116
Post: #174
RE: The Catholic Church thread
(09-24-2019 10:59 AM)NoMoreTO Wrote:  Exclusive Interview with Cardinal Sarah (aka Based Future Black Pope)

On the Roman Rite (Traditional Latin Mass)
Quote:...young people have entrusted me with their absolute preference for the extraordinary form, more educative and more insistent on the primacy and centrality of God, silence and on the meaning of the sacred and divine transcendence. But, above all, how can we understand, how can we not be surprised and deeply shocked that what was the rule yesterday is prohibited today? Is it not true that prohibiting or suspecting the extraordinary form can only be inspired by the demon who desires our suffocation and spiritual death?

On Gender Ideology & Western Decline
Quote:Gender ideology is a Luciferic refusal to receive a sexual nature from God. The West refuses to receive; it only accepts what it builds itself. Transhumanism is the ultimate avatar of this movement. Even human nature, because it is a gift from God, becomes unbearable to the Western man

This revolt is in its spiritual essence. It is Satan’s revolt against the gift of grace. Basically, I believe that the Western man refuses to be saved by pure mercy. He refuses to receive salvation and wants to build it by himself. The “Western values” promoted by the U.N. are based on a refusal of God that I compare to that of the rich young man in the Gospel. God looked at the West and loved it because it did great things. He invited the West to go further, but the West turned away, preferring the riches it owed only to itself. Africans know that they are poor and small before God. They are proud to kneel, happy to be dependent on an Almighty Creator and Father.


Be careful tossing the term "Black Pope" around. You could end up in conspiracy land against your will.

“The greatest burden a child must bear is the unlived life of its parents.”

Carl Jung
09-24-2019 11:55 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
NoMoreTO Offline
Kingfisher
***

Posts: 766
Joined: Jan 2018
Reputation: 12
Post: #175
RE: The Catholic Church thread
(09-24-2019 11:55 AM)debeguiled Wrote:  Be careful tossing the term "Black Pope" around. You could end up in conspiracy land against your will.

Negro Pope

“Where the danger is, so grows the saving element.” ~ German poet Hoelderlin
09-24-2019 12:09 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 1 user Likes NoMoreTO's post:
debeguiled
Post Reply 


Possibly Related Threads...
Thread: Author Replies: Views: Last Post
  Is there one true Christian church? bucky 58 3,066 Today 07:27 AM
Last Post: infowarrior1
  The Orthodox Church Panteleimon 273 71,700 Yesterday 07:57 PM
Last Post: Kid Twist
  Tell Us About Your Church Salinger 22 1,804 10-13-2019 06:12 PM
Last Post: The Guest

Forum Jump:


User(s) browsing this thread: 2 Guest(s)

Contact Us | RooshV.com | Return to Top | Return to Content | Mobile Version | RSS Syndication