I'm Touring The United States! Starting in June, I'm conducting private events in 23 American cities. Click here for full details.

Post Reply 
The Catholic Church thread
Author Message
Augustus_Principe Offline
Pigeon

Posts: 48
Joined: May 2019
Reputation: 1
Post: #176
RE: The Catholic Church thread
Great post @MichaelWitcoff. It's funny to me that unfortunately, everyone that's NOT catholic feels a need to throw their 2 cents in and complain about Catholicism when this is not "Catholic hate thread". Orthodox think they're perfect, yet their churches and countries who follow it suffer from their own issues as well. Last time I checked, Constantinople fell to Muslims 600 years ago and Muslims turned Hagia Sophia, the greatest Orthodox Cathedral ever built, into a Museum. Russia has a very low birth rate and still one of the highest amount of abortions per capita in the world, among many other things that I can come up with off the top of my head regarding orthodox Christianity in other countries.

There is a reason Catholicism is attacked on a daily basis, while other christian denominations are not, but I wont get into that(has to do something with putting restriction on Hand Rubbers back in Medieval times, while other denominations like Protestantism were quite cozy with them). At this point, im getting used to the attacks and figure its part and parcel of being a Catholic and in turn, an apologist.

Anyway, I recall watching a video on the Schism a while back that some may find helpful




Also this wiki article:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Papacy

The Byzantine Papacy was a period of Byzantine domination of the Roman papacy from 537 to 752, when popes required the approval of the Byzantine Emperor for episcopal consecration, and many popes were chosen from the apocrisiarii (liaisons from the pope to the emperor) or the inhabitants of Byzantine-ruled Greece, Syria, or Sicily. Justinian I conquered the Italian peninsula in the Gothic War (535–554) and appointed the next three popes, a practice that would be continued by his successors and later be delegated to the Exarchate of Ravenna.

After his invasion of Italy, the Gothic War (535–554), Emperor Justinian I forced Pope Silverius to abdicate and installed Pope Vigilius, a former apocrisiarius to Constantinople in his place; Justinian next appointed Pope Pelagius I, holding only a "sham election" to replace Vigilius; afterwards, Justinian was content to be limited to the approval of the pope, as with Pope John III after his election. Justinian's successors would continue the practice for over a century.[3]

Although the Byzantine troops that captured Italy called themselves Romans, many inhabitants of the city had a deep seated mistrust of Greeks, and Hellenistic influence more generally.[4] Before long, the citizens of Rome petitioned Justinian to recall Narses (who captured Rome in 552), declaring that they would rather still be ruled by the Goths.[5] Anti-Byzantine sentiment could also be found throughout the Italian peninsula, and reception of Greek theology in Latin circles was more mixed
(This post was last modified: 09-24-2019 12:24 PM by Augustus_Principe.)
09-24-2019 12:18 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Samseau Offline
Owl
******
Gold Member

Posts: 14,517
Joined: Mar 2010
Reputation: 293
Post: #177
RE: The Catholic Church thread
(09-23-2019 10:41 PM)NoMoreTO Wrote:  
(09-23-2019 07:53 PM)Samseau Wrote:  The Catholic Church suffers from having centralized authority. The Pope is a heresy, and the Churches that refused to recognize the heresy became the Orthodox Church.
Jesus gave Peter the Authority over the Church. This includes Eastern Apostolic Churches.
"'I will give you the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven, Whatever you bind on Earth is bound in Heaven" Matthew 16:19

Again, as I said in my first post in this thread, Peter has nothing to do with Rome other than being executed there. Jerusalem was the city he belonged to, not Rome.

To quote myself,

Quote:...yet using the most ridiculous logic I have ever seen Catholics claim to have the seat of Peter just because he was executed in Rome (like saying you own a man's ideas because you murdered him and took his house).

It is an utter mystery why Rome is given such high importance to the Church other than it being martyr ground for Peter and Paul, either of whom we have no idea of their status within heaven.

More heresy is that idea that the Apostles can be ranked, when in fact Jesus clearly said that the least among the Apostles would be called the greatest in heaven. It is not for any of us to judge which Apostle was the greatest, nor do we need concern ourselves with such hypocritical judgement. None of us will ever measure up to any of the Apostles.

Quote:
(09-23-2019 07:53 PM)Samseau Wrote:  All of the declines in Christianity follow the great schism. Mandatory celibacy for Priests, 4th crusade, Protestant Reformation, Vatican II, and now the wholesale destruction of Europe is a result of having a Pope that can become corrupted and lead the rest of the Church into hell.

The great Schism did not help Christianity. I will agree with you on that.

The word Church by nature means Body and all Catholics are part of the Body.

Your argument that having a Pope creates the possibility of a single man being corrupted and destroying the Church is weak. There have been heretical Popes and the Church has survived Heretical Pope

The old Catholic Church could get away with the heresy of the Pope because technology did not allow for unbridled evil to manifest so totally until the totalitarian 20th century.

Once technology advanced, the Pope was an easy position to infiltrate and subvert to create Vatican II. Mass immigration now, soon will come female priests (who aren't worse than homosexual priests) and eventually every other degeneracy.

The enormous plague of faggots masquerading as Priests in the Catholic church, many of whom turn into pedophile predators as homosexuals tend to do, is impossible to deny as anything other than the mark of unbridled Satanic corruption. No other Church has such a problem because no other Church would think of mandating celibacy for all priests, a mark of evil that not even most Apostles worried about as they themselves had wives.

The advent of mass society and a central authority figure like the Pope made it all too easy to destroy the Catholic church in the modern age and it's only going to get much much worse as the internet takes the potential for centralized abuse into levels previously unthought of.

Quote:
(09-23-2019 07:53 PM)Samseau Wrote:  The Orthodox Church will remain as the last bastion of Christianity going forward because it's political structure is highly resistant to corruption. We are divided amongst 6 Patriarchs across the world, each with their own roster of Bishops, so if one Patriarch starts to go insane (and it happens quite often) the other Patriarchs form alliances against him and limit the damage he can do until he passes away in old age. When new blood comes in, the damage can be fixed and the Church rolls on.

11 Apostles abandoned Jesus at the Cross. Only John was at the foot of the Cross because he was with the Virgin Mary. Praying the Rosary is the key here, not political structure. This isn't the US constitution.

God institutes Just political structures in order to shepherd his people, as St. Paul taught. A corrupt political structure is therefore the mark of Satan.

Quote:
(09-23-2019 07:53 PM)Samseau Wrote:  What does any of this have to do with Catholicism? Well, if "TradCaths" (i.e. normal Christians) want to see a Church worth a damn in their lifetime, then they should work to abolish the Pope and undo the nonsense in their Church

Traditional Latin Mass is Excellent. Consider going to a High Mass then come back.

A dying mass of a dying Church. Went to one at Notre Dame. All Latin, was wonderful. The most beautiful Church was only 1% full on a Sunday morning. I knew France and the Catholics were doomed then.

Quote:
(09-23-2019 07:53 PM)Samseau Wrote:  The best proof of Orthodoxy's superior Church structure can be seen in how Satan has almost exclusively used mass violence against Orthodox churches to try and destroy it instead of bringing the Orthodox down from within like the Catholics and Protestants. Because Satan could not fatally corrupt us, he instead has unleashed Islam and Communism over the centuries to try and murder the devout who were led faithfully by the oldest Church. Satan would not have done this if he could have corrupted us from within.

To create Islam, wouldn't Christians have to convert? I assume many were martyred also, but obviously Muslims in Turkey, Syria, Egypt, were once Christians.

They were converted under the sword or persecuted for generations until they converted, were martyred, or fled. My ancestors, for example, managed to escape after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire. Not to mention, the place was so dirt broke after WW1 there was no future for young Christian men in Syria.

Quote:Communism was created by Jews, but the Russian people participated in it. You can say that what is going on in Europe, & USA is worse than communism, but people still as of this moment have freedom to practice their religion.

Your argument is flawed in that it attributes anything bad that happens to E. Orthodox Church as external, and anything bad that happens to Catholic Church as Papal Corruption.

The argument is history. I do not presuppose anything. Orthodox Churches have suffered externally, and Catholics and Protestants have suffered internally. I have thousands of years to back me up on this, and it seems you aren't too familiar with history.

Quote:
(09-23-2019 07:53 PM)Samseau Wrote:  The same fate of atheist Europe awaits all countries that remain Catholic with the same heresy of the Pope. Catholics must get rid of the Pope, or just switch to Orthodox churches …..

In 1965, Pope Paul VI and the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople Athenagoras I nullified the anathemas of 1054.

Rejected by a majority of Patriarchs as a bad faith attempt without addressing long standing errors in doctrine and practice.

The Pope of 1965 got the Russian Patriarch to agree to restoring Communion, but that Patriarch was acting like he had total authority when he did not because 1. He was just a puppet of the Communist Party of Russia and 2. There must be a consensus of Patriarchs for something major to be approved within the Orthodox world.

http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/philaret_lifting.aspx

Quote:We heard many expressions of perplexity when Your Holiness in the face of the whole world performed something quite new and uncommon to your predecessors as well as inconsistent with the 10th Canon of the Holy Apostles at your meeting with the Pope of Rome, Paul VI, in Jerusalem. We have heard that after that, many monasteries on the Holy Mount of Athos have refused to mention your name at religious services. Let us say frankly, the confusion was great. But now Your Holiness is going even further when, only by your own decision with the bishops of your Synod, you cancel the decision of Patriarch Michael Cerularius accepted by the whole Orthodox East. In that way Your Holiness is acting contrary to the attitude accepted by the whole of our Church in regard to Roman Catholicism. It is not a question of this or that evaluation of the behaviour of Cardinal Humbert. It is not a matter of a personal controversy between the Pope and the Patriarch which could be easily remedied by their mutual Christian forgiveness; no, the essence of the problem is in the deviation from Orthodoxy which took root in the Roman Church during the centuries, beginning with the doctrine of the infallibility of the Pope which was definitively formulated at the First Vatican Council. The declaration of Your Holiness and the Pope with good reason recognises your gesture of "mutual pardon" as insufficient to end both old and more recent differences. But more than that, your gesture puts a sign of equality between error and truth. For centuries all the Orthodox Church believed with good reason that it has violated no doctrine of the Holy Ecumenical Councils; whereas the Church of Rome has introduced a number of innovations in its dogmatic teaching. The more such innovations were introduced, the deeper was to become the separation between the East and the West. The doctrinal deviations of Rome in the eleventh century did not yet contain the errors that were added later. Therefore, the cancellation of the mutual excommunication of 1054 could have been of meaning at that time; but now it is only an evidence of indifference in regard to the most important errors, namely new doctrines foreign to the ancient Church, of which some, having been exposed by St. Mark of Ephesus, were the reason why the Church rejected the Union of Florence.

Quote:No union of the Roman Church with us is possible until it renounces its new doctrines, and no communion in prayer can be restored with it without a decision of all churches, which, however, can hardly be possible before the liberation of the Church of Russia which at present has to live in catacombs. The hierarchy which is now under Patriarch Alexis cannot express the true voice of the Russian Church because it is under full control of the godless government. Primates of some other churches in countries dominated by communists also are not free.

Also, I like the humor at the end of this paragraph.

Regardless, the above letter sums up how the oligarchy within the Orthodox Church keeps it pure. Just as the Apostles were an oligarchy under Christ, so too does the faithful church keep a collective of wise men to guide it along the narrow path.

Contributor at Return of Kings. You can follow me on Gab.

Be sure to check out the easiest mining program around, FreedomXMR.
(This post was last modified: 09-24-2019 07:04 PM by Samseau.)
09-24-2019 06:57 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 1 user Likes Samseau's post:
Emperor Constantine
MichaelWitcoff Online
Woodpecker
**

Posts: 399
Joined: Jan 2019
Reputation: 11
Post: #178
RE: The Catholic Church thread
(09-24-2019 11:07 AM)bucky Wrote:  
(09-24-2019 05:48 AM)MichaelWitcoff Wrote:  You will NOT find the other Patriarchs bowing to Rome or demonstrating the kind of submission that Roman Catholics like to say existed from the very beginning. One of the pre-schism Roman Popes, I forget which one, even wrote that if any future leader claimed universal jurisdiction, that person was a precursor to the Antichrist.

That's very interesting, and something I've never heard. If you remember the name of that specific Bishop of Rome or if anyone else knows it, please reply here.

In the 6th century, Pope St. Gregory the Great wrote the following: "I say it without the least hesitation, whoever calls himself the universal bishop, or desires this title, is, by his pride, the precursor of Antichrist, because he thus attempts to raise himself above the others. The error into which he falls springs from pride equal to that of Antichrist; for as that Wicked One wished to be regarded as exalted above other men, like a god, so likewise whoever would be called sole bishop exalteth himself above others."

In the 19th century, the 4th session of the Vatican 1 Council declared: "Wherefore we teach and declare that, by divine ordinance, the Roman Church possesses a pre-eminence of ordinary power over every other Church, and that this jurisdictional power of the Roman Pontiff is both episcopal and immediate. Both clergy and faithful, of whatever rite and dignity, both singly and collectively, are bound to submit to this power by the duty of hierarchical subordination and true obedience, and this not only in matters concerning faith and morals, but also in those which regard the discipline and government of the Church throughout the world."

Clearly these statements are not describing the same religion.

Return Of Kings contributor and best-selling author of "On The Masons And Their Lies."
09-25-2019 02:58 AM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 6 users Like MichaelWitcoff's post:
ilostabet, bucky, debeguiled, Samseau, Syberpunk, Emperor Constantine
bucky Offline
Kingfisher
***

Posts: 525
Joined: Nov 2015
Reputation: 3
Post: #179
RE: The Catholic Church thread
(09-25-2019 02:58 AM)MichaelWitcoff Wrote:  
(09-24-2019 11:07 AM)bucky Wrote:  
(09-24-2019 05:48 AM)MichaelWitcoff Wrote:  You will NOT find the other Patriarchs bowing to Rome or demonstrating the kind of submission that Roman Catholics like to say existed from the very beginning. One of the pre-schism Roman Popes, I forget which one, even wrote that if any future leader claimed universal jurisdiction, that person was a precursor to the Antichrist.

That's very interesting, and something I've never heard. If you remember the name of that specific Bishop of Rome or if anyone else knows it, please reply here.

In the 6th century, Pope St. Gregory the Great wrote the following: "I say it without the least hesitation, whoever calls himself the universal bishop, or desires this title, is, by his pride, the precursor of Antichrist, because he thus attempts to raise himself above the others. The error into which he falls springs from pride equal to that of Antichrist; for as that Wicked One wished to be regarded as exalted above other men, like a god, so likewise whoever would be called sole bishop exalteth himself above others."

In the 19th century, the 4th session of the Vatican 1 Council declared: "Wherefore we teach and declare that, by divine ordinance, the Roman Church possesses a pre-eminence of ordinary power over every other Church, and that this jurisdictional power of the Roman Pontiff is both episcopal and immediate. Both clergy and faithful, of whatever rite and dignity, both singly and collectively, are bound to submit to this power by the duty of hierarchical subordination and true obedience, and this not only in matters concerning faith and morals, but also in those which regard the discipline and government of the Church throughout the world."

Clearly these statements are not describing the same religion.

That's fascinating. I'm sure the Catholics have some sort of counterargument (Gregory wasn't speaking infallibly or something like that) but still, fascinating quote from one of the most celebrated popes.

Feminism in ten words: "Stop objectifying women! Can't you see I've hit the wall?" -Leonard D Neubache
09-25-2019 08:30 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 1 user Likes bucky's post:
debeguiled
Augustus_Principe Offline
Pigeon

Posts: 48
Joined: May 2019
Reputation: 1
Post: #180
RE: The Catholic Church thread
(09-25-2019 08:30 AM)bucky Wrote:  
(09-25-2019 02:58 AM)MichaelWitcoff Wrote:  
(09-24-2019 11:07 AM)bucky Wrote:  
(09-24-2019 05:48 AM)MichaelWitcoff Wrote:  You will NOT find the other Patriarchs bowing to Rome or demonstrating the kind of submission that Roman Catholics like to say existed from the very beginning. One of the pre-schism Roman Popes, I forget which one, even wrote that if any future leader claimed universal jurisdiction, that person was a precursor to the Antichrist.

That's very interesting, and something I've never heard. If you remember the name of that specific Bishop of Rome or if anyone else knows it, please reply here.

In the 6th century, Pope St. Gregory the Great wrote the following: "I say it without the least hesitation, whoever calls himself the universal bishop, or desires this title, is, by his pride, the precursor of Antichrist, because he thus attempts to raise himself above the others. The error into which he falls springs from pride equal to that of Antichrist; for as that Wicked One wished to be regarded as exalted above other men, like a god, so likewise whoever would be called sole bishop exalteth himself above others."

In the 19th century, the 4th session of the Vatican 1 Council declared: "Wherefore we teach and declare that, by divine ordinance, the Roman Church possesses a pre-eminence of ordinary power over every other Church, and that this jurisdictional power of the Roman Pontiff is both episcopal and immediate. Both clergy and faithful, of whatever rite and dignity, both singly and collectively, are bound to submit to this power by the duty of hierarchical subordination and true obedience, and this not only in matters concerning faith and morals, but also in those which regard the discipline and government of the Church throughout the world."

Clearly these statements are not describing the same religion.

That's fascinating. I'm sure the Catholics have some sort of counterargument (Gregory wasn't speaking infallibly or something like that) but still, fascinating quote from one of the most celebrated popes.

As with all quotes, context is everything. Pope Gregory had an issue with the title UNIVERSAL Bishop, which the Bishop of Constantine took for himself and still does apparently. There is a lot more to this and Pope Gregory was not arguing against "Papal Primacy", rather the Bishop of Constantinople naming himself Universal Bishop. The argument was more on the word Universal being used... Basically, Pope Gregory recognized that the Succession of rule follows Saint Peter. Below I compiled some info to clear things up

This thread on another forum has a great back and forth on this subject:

https://forums.catholic.com/t/pope-grego...y/136524/2

From Pope Gregory:
"Certainly Peter, the first of the apostles, himself a member of the holy and universal Church, Paul, Andrew, John,-what were they but heads of particular communities? And yet all were members under one Head. And (to bind all together in a short girth of speech) the saints before the law, the saints under the law, the saints under grace, all these making up the LORD’S Body, were constituted as members of the Church, and not one of them has wished himself to be called universal"

Do I in this matter, most pious lord, defend my own cause? Do I resent my own special wrong? Nay, the cause of Almighty GOD, the cause of the Universal Church.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06780a.htm

In view of later developments Gregory's dealings with the Oriental Churches, and with Constantinople in particular, have a special importance. There cannot be the smallest doubt that Gregory claimed for the Apostolic See, and for himself as pope, a primacy not of honor, but of supreme authority over the Church Universal. In Epistle 13.50, he speaks of "the Apostolic See, which is the head of all Churches", and in Epistle 5.154, he says: "I, albeit unworthy, have been set up in command of the Church." As successor of St. Peter, the pope had received from God a primacy over all Churches (Epistle 2.46; 3.30; 5.37; 7.37). His approval it was which gave force to the decrees of councils or synods (Epistle 9.156), and his authority could annul them (Epistles 5.39, 5.41, 5.44). To him appeals might be made even against other patriarchs, and by him bishops were judged and corrected if need were (Epistles 2.50; 3.52; 3.63; 9.26; 9.27).

This position naturally made it impossible for him to permit the use of the title Ecumenical Bishop assumed by the Patriarch of Constantinople, John the Faster, at a synod held in 588. Gregory protested, and a long controversy followed, the question still at issue when the pope died. A discussion of this controversy is needless here, but it is important as showing how completely Gregory regarded the Eastern patriarchs as being subject to himself; "As regards the Church of Constantinople," he writes in Epistle 9.12, "who can doubt that it is subject to the Apostolic See? Why, both our most religious lord the emperor, and our brother the Bishop of Constantinople continually acknowledge it."

At the same time the pope was most careful not to interfere with the canonical rights of the other patriarchs and bishops. With the other Oriental patriarchs his relations were most cordial, as appears from his letters to the patriarchs of Antioch and Alexandria.
(This post was last modified: 09-25-2019 12:09 PM by Augustus_Principe.)
09-25-2019 12:08 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 2 users Like Augustus_Principe's post:
NoMoreTO, bucky
NoMoreTO Offline
Kingfisher
***

Posts: 771
Joined: Jan 2018
Reputation: 12
Post: #181
RE: The Catholic Church thread
Helpful breakdown with proper pronunciation.

- Our Father
- Hail Mary
- Glory Be
- Fatima Prayer (done quickly)
- Table Grace





Pater Noster - Our Father
Páter nóster, qui es in cáelis, sanctificétur nómen túum. Advéniat régnum túum. Fíat volúntas túa, sícut in cáelo et in térra.
Pánem nóstrum quotidiánum da nóbis hódie, et dimítte nóbis débita nóstra, sícut et nos dimíttimus debitóribus nóstris.
Et ne nos indúcas in tentatiónem: sed líbera nos a málo. Amen.

Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. Amen.

Ave Maria - Hail Mary
Áve María, grátia pléna, Dóminus técum; benedícta tu in muliéribus, et benedíctus frúctus véntris túi, Jésus.
Sáncta María, Máter Déi, óra pro nóbis peccatóribus, nunc et in hóra mórtis nóstræ. Amen.

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now, and in the hour of our death. Amen.


Gloria - Glory be
Glória Pátri, et Fílio, et Spirítui Sáncto. Sícut érat in princípio et nunc et sémper et in sáecula sæculórum. Amen.
Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit. As it was in the beginning, is now, and will be forever. Amen.

Oratio Fatima - Fatima Prayer
O Jésu mi, ignósce nóbis, libera nos ab ígne inférni, ad caélum tráhe ómnes ánimas, praesáertim máxime indigéntes.

O my Jesus, forgive us our sins and save us from the fires of Hell. Lead all souls to heaven, especially those in most need of Thy mercy.

Benedictio Mensae - Blessing Before Meals
Benedíc nos Dómine et haec Túa dóna quae de Túa largitáte súmus sumptúri. Per Chrístum Dóminum nóstrum.
Ámen.

Bless us, O Lord, and these Thy gifts, which we are about to receive from Thy bounty, through Christ our Lord.
Amen.


Symbolum Apostolorum - Apostles Creed
Crédo in Déum, Pátrem omnipoténtem, Creatórem cáeli et térræ. Et in Jésum Chrístum, Fílium éjus unícum, Dóminum nóstrum, qui concéptus est de Spíritu Sáncto, nátus ex María Vírgine, pássus sub Póntio Piláto, crucifíxus, mórtuus, et sepúltus. Descéndit ad ínferos: tértia díe resurréxit a mórtuis: ascéndit ad cáelos: sédet ad déxteram Déi Pátris omnipoténtis: índe ventúrus est judicáre vívos et mórtuos.
Crédo in Spíritum Sánctum, sánctam Ecclésiam Cathólicam, Sanctórum communiónem, remissiónem peccatórum, cárnis resurrectiónem, vítam ætérnam. Amen.

I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth. I believe in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended to the dead. On the third day He rose again. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen.

“Where the danger is, so grows the saving element.” ~ German poet Hoelderlin
(This post was last modified: 09-26-2019 12:20 PM by NoMoreTO.)
09-26-2019 12:12 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 2 users Like NoMoreTO's post:
Emperor Constantine, Augustus_Principe
MichaelWitcoff Online
Woodpecker
**

Posts: 399
Joined: Jan 2019
Reputation: 11
Post: #182
RE: The Catholic Church thread
(09-25-2019 12:08 PM)Augustus_Principe Wrote:  
(09-25-2019 08:30 AM)bucky Wrote:  
(09-25-2019 02:58 AM)MichaelWitcoff Wrote:  
(09-24-2019 11:07 AM)bucky Wrote:  
(09-24-2019 05:48 AM)MichaelWitcoff Wrote:  You will NOT find the other Patriarchs bowing to Rome or demonstrating the kind of submission that Roman Catholics like to say existed from the very beginning. One of the pre-schism Roman Popes, I forget which one, even wrote that if any future leader claimed universal jurisdiction, that person was a precursor to the Antichrist.

That's very interesting, and something I've never heard. If you remember the name of that specific Bishop of Rome or if anyone else knows it, please reply here.

In the 6th century, Pope St. Gregory the Great wrote the following: "I say it without the least hesitation, whoever calls himself the universal bishop, or desires this title, is, by his pride, the precursor of Antichrist, because he thus attempts to raise himself above the others. The error into which he falls springs from pride equal to that of Antichrist; for as that Wicked One wished to be regarded as exalted above other men, like a god, so likewise whoever would be called sole bishop exalteth himself above others."

In the 19th century, the 4th session of the Vatican 1 Council declared: "Wherefore we teach and declare that, by divine ordinance, the Roman Church possesses a pre-eminence of ordinary power over every other Church, and that this jurisdictional power of the Roman Pontiff is both episcopal and immediate. Both clergy and faithful, of whatever rite and dignity, both singly and collectively, are bound to submit to this power by the duty of hierarchical subordination and true obedience, and this not only in matters concerning faith and morals, but also in those which regard the discipline and government of the Church throughout the world."

Clearly these statements are not describing the same religion.

That's fascinating. I'm sure the Catholics have some sort of counterargument (Gregory wasn't speaking infallibly or something like that) but still, fascinating quote from one of the most celebrated popes.

As with all quotes, context is everything. Pope Gregory had an issue with the title UNIVERSAL Bishop, which the Bishop of Constantine took for himself and still does apparently. There is a lot more to this and Pope Gregory was not arguing against "Papal Primacy", rather the Bishop of Constantinople naming himself Universal Bishop. The argument was more on the word Universal being used... Basically, Pope Gregory recognized that the Succession of rule follows Saint Peter. Below I compiled some info to clear things up

This thread on another forum has a great back and forth on this subject:

https://forums.catholic.com/t/pope-grego...y/136524/2

From Pope Gregory:
"Certainly Peter, the first of the apostles, himself a member of the holy and universal Church, Paul, Andrew, John,-what were they but heads of particular communities? And yet all were members under one Head. And (to bind all together in a short girth of speech) the saints before the law, the saints under the law, the saints under grace, all these making up the LORD’S Body, were constituted as members of the Church, and not one of them has wished himself to be called universal"

Do I in this matter, most pious lord, defend my own cause? Do I resent my own special wrong? Nay, the cause of Almighty GOD, the cause of the Universal Church.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06780a.htm

In view of later developments Gregory's dealings with the Oriental Churches, and with Constantinople in particular, have a special importance. There cannot be the smallest doubt that Gregory claimed for the Apostolic See, and for himself as pope, a primacy not of honor, but of supreme authority over the Church Universal. In Epistle 13.50, he speaks of "the Apostolic See, which is the head of all Churches", and in Epistle 5.154, he says: "I, albeit unworthy, have been set up in command of the Church." As successor of St. Peter, the pope had received from God a primacy over all Churches (Epistle 2.46; 3.30; 5.37; 7.37). His approval it was which gave force to the decrees of councils or synods (Epistle 9.156), and his authority could annul them (Epistles 5.39, 5.41, 5.44). To him appeals might be made even against other patriarchs, and by him bishops were judged and corrected if need were (Epistles 2.50; 3.52; 3.63; 9.26; 9.27).

This position naturally made it impossible for him to permit the use of the title Ecumenical Bishop assumed by the Patriarch of Constantinople, John the Faster, at a synod held in 588. Gregory protested, and a long controversy followed, the question still at issue when the pope died. A discussion of this controversy is needless here, but it is important as showing how completely Gregory regarded the Eastern patriarchs as being subject to himself; "As regards the Church of Constantinople," he writes in Epistle 9.12, "who can doubt that it is subject to the Apostolic See? Why, both our most religious lord the emperor, and our brother the Bishop of Constantinople continually acknowledge it."

At the same time the pope was most careful not to interfere with the canonical rights of the other patriarchs and bishops. With the other Oriental patriarchs his relations were most cordial, as appears from his letters to the patriarchs of Antioch and Alexandria.

I'll have a look at that, thanks. And I also disagree with the Ecumenical Patriarch's recent behavior.

Return Of Kings contributor and best-selling author of "On The Masons And Their Lies."
09-26-2019 12:37 PM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 2 users Like MichaelWitcoff's post:
bucky, Augustus_Principe
redbeard Offline
Hummingbird
*****
Gold Member

Posts: 2,903
Joined: Jan 2014
Reputation: 71
Post: #183
RE: The Catholic Church thread



1 Year NoFap Veteran --- No Days Off in Trump's America
09-27-2019 07:10 AM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 3 users Like redbeard's post:
Jones, NoMoreTO, Augustus_Principe
NoMoreTO Offline
Kingfisher
***

Posts: 771
Joined: Jan 2018
Reputation: 12
Post: #184
RE: The Catholic Church thread
Some Catholics may not know that Sunday, September 29th was the yearly Dedication of St. Michael The Archangel. If you go to a Novus Ordu (standard mass) it is no longer celebrated. The Traditional Latin Mass still celebrates this.

"This St. Michael’s Prayer is the original version as written by Pope Leo XIII. It was originally published in the Roman Raccolta of July 23, 1898, and a supplement approved July 31, 1902. Original Prayer to St Michael the Archangel."

The oral tradition is that Pope Leo had a vision of demonic spirits gathering on Rome. He instituted this prayer.

Revelation Chapter 12 contains both St. Mary & St. Michael the Archangel.

The prayer itself is making a comeback, not just in Latin Mass where it is fully embedded. But it is getting traction in these evil times.

Quote:O Glorious Archangel St. Michael, Prince of the heavenly host, be our defense in the terrible warfare which we carry on against principalities and powers, against the rulers of this world of darkness, and spirits of evil.

Come to the aid of man, whom God created immortal, made in His own image and likeness, and redeemed at a great price from the tyranny of the devil. Fight this day the battle of the Lord, together with the holy angels, as already thou hast fought the leader of the proud angels, Lucifer, and his apostate host, who were powerless to resist Thee, nor was there place for them any longer in heaven. That cruel, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil or Satan, who seduces the whole world, was cast into the abyss with his angels.

Behold, this primeval enemy and slayer of men has taken courage. Transformed into an angel of light, he wanders about with all the multitude of wicked spirits, invading the earth in order to blot out the name of God and of His Christ, to seize upon, slay and cast into eternal perdition souls destined for the crown of eternal glory. This wicked dragon pours out, as a most impure flood, the venom of his malice on men; his depraved mind, corrupt heart, his spirit of lying, impiety, blasphemy, his pestilential breath of impurity and of every vice and iniquity. These most crafty enemies have filled and inebriated with gall and bitterness the Church, the Spouse of the Immaculate Lamb, and have laid impious hands on her most sacred possessions. In the Holy Place itself, where has been set up the See of the most holy Peter and the Chair of Truth for the light of the world, they have raised the throne of their abominable impiety, with the iniquitous design that when the Pastor has been struck, the sheep may be scattered.
Arise then, O invincible Prince, bring help against the attacks of the lost spirits to the people of God, and give them the victory. They venerate Thee as their protector and patron; in Thee Holy Church glories as her defense against the malicious power of hell; to Thee has God entrusted the souls of men to be established in heavenly beatitude. Oh, pray to the God of peace that He may put Satan under our feet, so far conquered that he may no longer be able to hold men in captivity and harm the Church. Offer our prayers in the sight of the Most High, so that they may quickly conciliate the mercies of the Lord; and beating down the dragon, the ancient serpent who is the devil and Satan, do Thou again make him captive in the abyss, that he may no longer seduce the nations. Amen.

“Where the danger is, so grows the saving element.” ~ German poet Hoelderlin
(This post was last modified: 09-30-2019 10:55 PM by NoMoreTO.)
09-30-2019 10:39 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 4 users Like NoMoreTO's post:
Leonard D Neubache, Meliorare93, redbeard, Augustus_Principe
Lazuli Waves Offline
Pigeon

Posts: 43
Joined: Aug 2019
Reputation: 0
Post: #185
RE: The Catholic Church thread
Feminists set Catholic cathedral on fire in Mexico City.

Quote:Resembling so-called antifa leftists in the United States, the black-clad hooligans painted slogans such as “My body,” “legal abortion,” and “God is a woman.” Some wore the green bandanas that have become the symbol of pro-abortion activists throughout Latin America.

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/watch-...-cathedral



(This post was last modified: 10-01-2019 07:39 PM by Lazuli Waves.)
10-01-2019 07:38 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 2 users Like Lazuli Waves's post:
Samseau, debeguiled
Emperor Constantine Offline
Sparrow

Posts: 80
Joined: May 2019
Reputation: 0
Post: #186
RE: The Catholic Church thread
(09-24-2019 06:57 PM)Samseau Wrote:  It is an utter mystery why Rome is given such high importance to the Church other than it being martyr ground for Peter and Paul, either of whom we have no idea of their status within heaven.

Canon 3 of the second Ecumenical Council gives us a hint: "Because it is new Rome, the bishop of Constantinople is to enjoy the privileges of honour after the bishop of Rome."

Rome was important because it was the capital city, and that's why Constantinople became important. In light of the recent EP situation, we can see how being an important see can turn into an "I should have total control" situation.

Two other reasons for the Papal dogmas:
1. The see of Rome was a bastion of Orthodoxy for a very long time. If you're right enough times, people start trusting you a lot more.
2. In the East, sees founded by the Apostles were a dime a dozen. In the west, Rome was THE Apostolic see. So Christians in the west were in the habit of giving the Roman see a very special place of reverence that Christians in the East wouldn't understand.

After being so important for so long, it's easy to see why the Popes began to ascribe greater powers to themselves.
10-02-2019 08:37 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
robreke Offline
Ostrich
****
Gold Member

Posts: 2,010
Joined: Apr 2014
Reputation: 67
Post: #187
RE: The Catholic Church thread
(09-30-2019 10:39 PM)NoMoreTO Wrote:  Some Catholics may not know that Sunday, September 29th was the yearly Dedication of St. Michael The Archangel. If you go to a Novus Ordu (standard mass) it is no longer celebrated. The Traditional Latin Mass still celebrates this.

"This St. Michael’s Prayer is the original version as written by Pope Leo XIII. It was originally published in the Roman Raccolta of July 23, 1898, and a supplement approved July 31, 1902. Original Prayer to St Michael the Archangel."

The oral tradition is that Pope Leo had a vision of demonic spirits gathering on Rome. He instituted this prayer.

Revelation Chapter 12 contains both St. Mary & St. Michael the Archangel.

The prayer itself is making a comeback, not just in Latin Mass where it is fully embedded. But it is getting traction in these evil times.

Quote:O Glorious Archangel St. Michael, Prince of the heavenly host, be our defense in the terrible warfare which we carry on against principalities and powers, against the rulers of this world of darkness, and spirits of evil.

Come to the aid of man, whom God created immortal, made in His own image and likeness, and redeemed at a great price from the tyranny of the devil. Fight this day the battle of the Lord, together with the holy angels, as already thou hast fought the leader of the proud angels, Lucifer, and his apostate host, who were powerless to resist Thee, nor was there place for them any longer in heaven. That cruel, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil or Satan, who seduces the whole world, was cast into the abyss with his angels.

Behold, this primeval enemy and slayer of men has taken courage. Transformed into an angel of light, he wanders about with all the multitude of wicked spirits, invading the earth in order to blot out the name of God and of His Christ, to seize upon, slay and cast into eternal perdition souls destined for the crown of eternal glory. This wicked dragon pours out, as a most impure flood, the venom of his malice on men; his depraved mind, corrupt heart, his spirit of lying, impiety, blasphemy, his pestilential breath of impurity and of every vice and iniquity. These most crafty enemies have filled and inebriated with gall and bitterness the Church, the Spouse of the Immaculate Lamb, and have laid impious hands on her most sacred possessions. In the Holy Place itself, where has been set up the See of the most holy Peter and the Chair of Truth for the light of the world, they have raised the throne of their abominable impiety, with the iniquitous design that when the Pastor has been struck, the sheep may be scattered.
Arise then, O invincible Prince, bring help against the attacks of the lost spirits to the people of God, and give them the victory. They venerate Thee as their protector and patron; in Thee Holy Church glories as her defense against the malicious power of hell; to Thee has God entrusted the souls of men to be established in heavenly beatitude. Oh, pray to the God of peace that He may put Satan under our feet, so far conquered that he may no longer be able to hold men in captivity and harm the Church. Offer our prayers in the sight of the Most High, so that they may quickly conciliate the mercies of the Lord; and beating down the dragon, the ancient serpent who is the devil and Satan, do Thou again make him captive in the abyss, that he may no longer seduce the nations. Amen.

I grew up Catholic but do not know the answer to this: Is it Bibilically "OK" to pray to Angels and others besides Jesus or God the Father?

I thought I read somewhere you should only pray to Jesus or The Father and anything else is not Biblically sound. I realize Catholics have the Hail Mary and apparently some of the prayers to Angels though..

- One planet orbiting a star. Billions of stars in the galaxy. Billions of galaxies in the universe. Approach.

#BallsWin
10-02-2019 08:52 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Emperor Constantine Offline
Sparrow

Posts: 80
Joined: May 2019
Reputation: 0
Post: #188
RE: The Catholic Church thread
(10-02-2019 08:52 PM)robreke Wrote:  I grew up Catholic but do not know the answer to this: Is it Bibilically "OK" to pray to Angels and others besides Jesus or God the Father?

I thought I read somewhere you should only pray to Jesus or The Father and anything else is not Biblically sound. I realize Catholics have the Hail Mary and apparently some of the prayers to Angels though..

The saints are watching us, and their prayers are pretty powerful, so it makes sense to ask them to pray for us. Although praying to saints is not mandated in the Bible, it makes sense in a Biblical context.

One must, of course, never worship anyone but God. It's a confusing issue because Protestants often use the words worship and pray interchangeably, but Roman Catholics still use pray in the older sense of the word: to make a request.

It's also worth noting that the Hail Mary comes from the scriptures. Luke 1:28 and 1:42.
10-02-2019 11:07 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 5 users Like Emperor Constantine's post:
MichaelWitcoff, redbeard, robreke, Augustus_Principe, Jones
NoMoreTO Offline
Kingfisher
***

Posts: 771
Joined: Jan 2018
Reputation: 12
Post: #189
RE: The Catholic Church thread
(10-02-2019 08:52 PM)robreke Wrote:  I grew up Catholic but do not know the answer to this: Is it Bibilically "OK" to pray to Angels and others besides Jesus or God the Father?

I thought I read somewhere you should only pray to Jesus or The Father and anything else is not Biblically sound. I realize Catholics have the Hail Mary and apparently some of the prayers to Angels though..

Yes it is definitely OK, Protestant influence can do that to you. For years I did something similar. We do not pray to the Saints as God, but only to ask them to pray to God for us, as they are divine and already in heaven. Biblical Support For Praying to the Saints

As you are Catholic, I would recommend praying the Rosary. You might have one still lying around somewhere, or in your family home. This is a prayer format centred around The Blessed Mother which will take about 30 minutes. I would say praying the Rosary daily is the foundation of Catholic prayer life. It was also requested by Our Lady of Fatima.

How to Pray the Rosary

“Where the danger is, so grows the saving element.” ~ German poet Hoelderlin
(This post was last modified: 10-02-2019 11:23 PM by NoMoreTO.)
10-02-2019 11:16 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 5 users Like NoMoreTO's post:
redbeard, robreke, Augustus_Principe, Jones, greasydj
redbeard Offline
Hummingbird
*****
Gold Member

Posts: 2,903
Joined: Jan 2014
Reputation: 71
Post: #190
RE: The Catholic Church thread
Prayer is NOT worship. Prayer is communication. There's nothing wrong with praying for a friend or a loved one. Same thing as praying to saints.

1 Year NoFap Veteran --- No Days Off in Trump's America
10-03-2019 07:12 AM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 3 users Like redbeard's post:
NoMoreTO, Augustus_Principe, Jones
Augustus_Principe Offline
Pigeon

Posts: 48
Joined: May 2019
Reputation: 1
Post: #191
RE: The Catholic Church thread
(09-27-2019 07:10 AM)redbeard Wrote:  


Great video. I posted this same one on another thread, stating the direction we need to take moving forward from 00s "Game". His Marriage series is also a great listen:





(10-03-2019 07:12 AM)redbeard Wrote:  Prayer is NOT worship. Prayer is communication. There's nothing wrong with praying for a friend or a loved one. Same thing as praying to saints.

Thank you. You would think this would be common sense, but protestants have done their best to misconstrue things Catholics do, such as the simple act of praying.
10-03-2019 09:00 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 2 users Like Augustus_Principe's post:
redbeard, 911
MichaelWitcoff Online
Woodpecker
**

Posts: 399
Joined: Jan 2019
Reputation: 11
Post: #192
RE: The Catholic Church thread
The intercession of Saints isn't worship, as mentioned by others, but some of the Eastern Rite Orthodox prayers to saints get awfully close. I assume it's a translation issue, since I don't know how they read in the original languages, but I understand why some Protestants (and believe it or not, even some Orthodox) are put off by the wording in certain prayers. I haven't seen any similar issues in the Western Rite, but that's spoken of so rarely most people don't know it exists.

Return Of Kings contributor and best-selling author of "On The Masons And Their Lies."
(This post was last modified: 10-03-2019 02:22 PM by MichaelWitcoff.)
10-03-2019 02:17 PM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
robreke Offline
Ostrich
****
Gold Member

Posts: 2,010
Joined: Apr 2014
Reputation: 67
Post: #193
RE: The Catholic Church thread
The Rosary seems like repetitive prayer.

The Hail Mary is repeated 100 times if you do the full prayer. As well as many Our Fathers and a few others.

This seems it could contradict Matthew 6:7 which states : But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they. shall be heard for their much speaking.

I've also listened to Catholics who say praying the Rosary over time changed their lives for the better. This article addresses my above point about repetition: http://miraculousrosary.blogspot.com/p/i...rayer.html

Still, the Rosary is repetitive no matter how one looks at it.

- One planet orbiting a star. Billions of stars in the galaxy. Billions of galaxies in the universe. Approach.

#BallsWin
(This post was last modified: 10-03-2019 05:50 PM by robreke.)
10-03-2019 05:30 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
NoMoreTO Offline
Kingfisher
***

Posts: 771
Joined: Jan 2018
Reputation: 12
Post: #194
RE: The Catholic Church thread
(10-03-2019 05:30 PM)robreke Wrote:  The Rosary seems like repetitive prayer.

Well, it is. You say the Hail Mary 100 times if you do the full prayer. As well as many Our Fathers and a few others.

This seems it could contradict Matthew 6:7 which states : But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they. shall be heard for their much speaking.

I've also listened to Catholics who say praying the Rosary over time changed their lives for the better. This article addresses my above point about repetition: http://miraculousrosary.blogspot.com/p/i...rayer.html

Still, the Rosary is repetitive no matter how one looks at it.
The repeition is not Vain. 10 is not too many to stay focussed on the specific mystery or the words of the prayer you repeat. Each decade (10) has a pause, where a mystery is meditated upon.

If you are doing things right then the meditations can quite easily be longer than the actual prayers. The mysteries outline key moments in the Bible involving Jesus Christ & St. Mary.

In Modern times we generally do once around, meditating on 1 set of 5 mysteries, this adds up to 53 rosaries. The Full Dominican Rosary (Original) is 153 as all 3 sets of 15 mysteries are covered.

Also, we are ordered in the Fatima Apparition to pray the Rosary Daily.

Edit: There were originally 3 sets of 5 mysteries given via a Marian Apparition. The 4th Set was created by JP2, or in his papacy.

“Where the danger is, so grows the saving element.” ~ German poet Hoelderlin
(This post was last modified: 10-03-2019 05:59 PM by NoMoreTO.)
10-03-2019 05:54 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 1 user Likes NoMoreTO's post:
redbeard
Emperor Constantine Offline
Sparrow

Posts: 80
Joined: May 2019
Reputation: 0
Post: #195
RE: The Catholic Church thread
(10-03-2019 02:17 PM)MichaelWitcoff Wrote:  ... I understand why some Protestants (and believe it or not, even some Orthodox) are put off by the wording in certain prayers.

It gets particularly confusing with some of the older Roman Catholic materials in English, since the word worship used to mean honor. So you can find books like The Worship of Mary from the same era when they started calling magistrates "your worship." I think back then they used the word adore to mean the reverence given only to God.
10-03-2019 08:18 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Jones Offline
Woodpecker
**

Posts: 442
Joined: Jan 2015
Reputation: 9
Post: #196
RE: The Catholic Church thread
(10-03-2019 05:30 PM)robreke Wrote:  The Rosary seems like repetitive prayer.

The Hail Mary is repeated 100 times if you do the full prayer. As well as many Our Fathers and a few others.

This seems it could contradict Matthew 6:7 which states : But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they. shall be heard for their much speaking.

I've also listened to Catholics who say praying the Rosary over time changed their lives for the better. This article addresses my above point about repetition: http://miraculousrosary.blogspot.com/p/i...rayer.html

Still, the Rosary is repetitive no matter how one looks at it.

The Hail Mary is repeated, but it is anything but "vain" repetition.

The vain repetition condemned by Our Lord is that of people who pray standing, "in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men".

There are no vain repetitious prayers if they are said with sincerity.

In the Garden of Gethsemani, Christ Himself engaged in repetitious prayer (Matt. 26:39, 42, 44).

Angels also never stop repeating at all times of the day the canticle (Apocalypse/Revelations 4:8), "Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord God Almighty, who was, who is, and who is to come."

See Luke 18:9-14 and Daniel 3:52-90 for a couple examples of repetitious prayer being justified and pleasing to God.

Protestants say the same prayers like before meals for grace and Benediction, the only difference is a lapse in time. What matters is the sincerity of the prayers.
10-03-2019 08:54 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 3 users Like Jones's post:
redbeard, robreke, NoMoreTO
Easy_C Offline
Crow
*****

Posts: 4,107
Joined: Oct 2014
Reputation: 28
Post: #197
RE: The Catholic Church thread
Rosaries are one article where there is a lot of room for expression.

I actually advocate buying a really, really, nice one like this thing: https://www.catholic-collectibles.com/sp8wdcsp173.html


Not only are they good item to have in a family, but if you have one this pretty it both makes you want to use it more and attracts more interest from your kids/others.
10-03-2019 09:49 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 1 user Likes Easy_C's post:
bucky
infowarrior1 Offline
Pelican
****

Posts: 1,683
Joined: Jan 2014
Reputation: 10
Post: #198
RE: The Catholic Church thread
@Emperor Constantine

Alphonse Ligouri is quite an offender in this area. For the devotions " Glories of Mary" he recommends go into cringeworthy heresy.

Making Jesus unapproachable and Mary being the approachable one. He needs to be denied by the church in this matter.
10-04-2019 01:14 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 1 user Likes infowarrior1's post:
MichaelWitcoff
MichaelWitcoff Online
Woodpecker
**

Posts: 399
Joined: Jan 2019
Reputation: 11
Post: #199
RE: The Catholic Church thread
(10-03-2019 08:18 PM)Emperor Constantine Wrote:  
(10-03-2019 02:17 PM)MichaelWitcoff Wrote:  ... I understand why some Protestants (and believe it or not, even some Orthodox) are put off by the wording in certain prayers.

It gets particularly confusing with some of the older Roman Catholic materials in English, since the word worship used to mean honor. So you can find books like The Worship of Mary from the same era when they started calling magistrates "your worship." I think back then they used the word adore to mean the reverence given only to God.

Possibly, but there are also some prayers that overtly put Mary in the place of God, assigning salvific titles and roles to her that have always made me uncomfortable. I think giving her too high a station is just as bad as the other extreme, the low-church evangelicals who see nothing special about her at all.

Return Of Kings contributor and best-selling author of "On The Masons And Their Lies."
(This post was last modified: 10-04-2019 01:58 AM by MichaelWitcoff.)
10-04-2019 01:57 AM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 4 users Like MichaelWitcoff's post:
rotekz, infowarrior1, debeguiled, bucky
infowarrior1 Offline
Pelican
****

Posts: 1,683
Joined: Jan 2014
Reputation: 10
Post: #200
RE: The Catholic Church thread
(10-04-2019 01:57 AM)MichaelWitcoff Wrote:  
(10-03-2019 08:18 PM)Emperor Constantine Wrote:  
(10-03-2019 02:17 PM)MichaelWitcoff Wrote:  ... I understand why some Protestants (and believe it or not, even some Orthodox) are put off by the wording in certain prayers.

It gets particularly confusing with some of the older Roman Catholic materials in English, since the word worship used to mean honor. So you can find books like The Worship of Mary from the same era when they started calling magistrates "your worship." I think back then they used the word adore to mean the reverence given only to God.

Possibly, but there are also some prayers that overtly put Mary in the place of God, assigning salvific titles and roles to her that have always made me uncomfortable. I think giving her too high a station is just as bad as the other extreme, the low-church evangelicals who see nothing special about her at all.

Agreed. And I think the low-church evangelicals lurched in the other direction too far in my opinion. A righteous woman who was selected by God to be a vessel for his incarnation.

What a blessing. I think Mary should be more highly esteemed in accordance with the scripture.
10-04-2019 09:37 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 1 user Likes infowarrior1's post:
debeguiled
Post Reply 


Possibly Related Threads...
Thread: Author Replies: Views: Last Post
  The Orthodox Church Panteleimon 274 72,276 10-15-2019 11:41 PM
Last Post: Roosh
  Is there one true Christian church? bucky 58 3,138 10-15-2019 07:27 AM
Last Post: infowarrior1
  Tell Us About Your Church Salinger 22 1,813 10-13-2019 06:12 PM
Last Post: The Guest

Forum Jump:


User(s) browsing this thread: 3 Guest(s)

Contact Us | RooshV.com | Return to Top | Return to Content | Mobile Version | RSS Syndication