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Street robberies and you: the basics
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Eazy_E Offline
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Post: #1
Street robberies and you: the basics
This isn't mine, but it's a really good read in light of the recent Minnesota beating:

https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/Stre...5-1285487/
09-15-2019 12:18 PM
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RE: Street robberies and you: the basics
Quote:Posted: 2/4/2012 7:47:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/4/2012 8:27:15 PM EDT by BurnedOutLEO]
Lately in GD we have had two different board members find themselves looking down the barrel of a gun along with the GF of another ARFCOMMER in street robberies. Also Blitz308 got shot all to pieces last year.

While many say it is better to be lucky than good, no one is lucky every time. In this post I am going to attempt to provide some insight into street encounters. Other may have different viewpoints. I am not here to argue. I will say some of the comments I have seen posted in the threads about this sort of matter make me realize that while some ARFCOMMERS are clearly street veterans others are not. This is really for those who are not.

Background

First, my info. I worked in the street of one of America's most violent, dangerous cities for 15 years. I usually worked in the worst part of that city. I spent 15 years in patrol. I liked patrol. It was wild. Most of the time I worked in areas covered in ghetto. By that I mean large housing projects combined with run down slum housing. I have worked all shifts. Later I became an investigator including a robbery investigator. I have spent countless hours in interrogation rooms talking to hold up men. I know them. I am still an investigator but have quit playing the Robbery game because my family was starting to forget what I looked like.

The Enemy

Some may object to me calling hold up men "the enemy". You can call them whatever you like. I can assure you however they are as deadly an enemy as you will find anywhere but the battlefield. Even many soldiers probably lack the viciousness and utter disregard for life most hold up men possess.

No one wakes up in the morning one day and decides to become an armed robber. It is a gradual process that requires some experience and desensitizing. Before a man will pick up a gun and threaten to kill people who have done him no harm in order to get their usually meager possessions he has to get comfortable with some things.

He has to get used to seeing others as objects for him to exploit. He has to accept he may be killed while robbing. He has to accept the felony conviction for Robbery will haunt him all his life. He has to accept he may need to kill a completely innocent person to get away with his crime.

This is a process that starts with stealing candy at the corner store as a child. It progresses through bigger property crimes that may also involve violence. But one day G gets tired of selling his stolen property for nothing and decides it would be better to steal cash. Cut out all that tiresome sales stuff.


Keep in mind many petty thieves, auto burglars, residential and commercial burglars, paper thieves, and hustlers will get to that point and decide not to become armed robbers. Most will. It is a special group of outliers who decide threatening to kill people for a few dollars is the way to go.

Once a man starts armed robbing he has crossed a line most won't. Don't forget that when you are looking these bastards in the eye. Their decision to kill you is already made. Your life means nothing to him. Only his does. His sole motivation for not killing you is he doesn't want a murder case. He has already accepted he may pick one up though.

We hunt hold up men around the clock once they are identified. We send teams of fire breathing fence jumper/door kickers to find them. We will bring their mother to the office and convince her she is going to jail if we don't have Junior in our office in an hour. We have her call her son crying hysterically for him to turn himself in before she is arrested and held without bond as a material witness and her home seized for harboring him. Most of the time they won't. Fuck their own momma.

We will hit all Juniors friends and family's houses. We make it so no one will harbor him. He is so hot no one will let him in their house or even talk on the phone with him. We put money on him so he knows he is right to be betrayed and set up. We do this because of one thing.

That thing is they WILL kill someone if they keep robbing. That is why the city is willing to pay all the overtime. They don't want the murders. Think about that when you see Junior coming. The more robberies he does the closer he is to killing someone. Maybe you.

The guys who hit you on the street are gang members. They are Gangster Disciples, Vice Lords, Crips, Sureonos, many others. They do not see themselves as part of society. The street is all they know. They don't expect to live long or stay out of prison. They take a delight in your fear and suffering. They are warped individuals for the most part. They can be extremely dangerous.

One time we were locking up a hold up man and having a conversation about how they target their victims. I was saying they pick easy ones, another guy was saying they preferred easy ones but would take anybody.

I pointed out a uniform Officer there was an NFL size guy to that hold up man. Frankly the dude was a monster. I asked hold up man if he would rob him. He said "If I needed the money".





You

Chances are good you are a law abiding person except for maybe a little light weed smoking and maybe driving a little drunk every once in a while. Most of your life you have been taught to be nice and don't point guns at people. You are the exact opposite of your enemy who was taught just the opposite. Remember a lot of street life is like prison life. Who's the man is everything. Violence is the currency of the street.

You do not possess total disregard for the lives of others and do not want to kill anyone. You are concerned about the ramifications of shooting someone. Your family, your possessions and finances on the line. Your enemy has none of these concerns.

The laws that keep you from carrying your gun in bars or where ever mean nothing to your enemy. Your reluctance to shoot someone works to is advantage. His greater experience in street violence and the element of surprise is on his side.

Everyone should call their local FBI office and get a copy of Law Enforcement Officers Killed and Assaulted. When it first came out it was ground breaking because it demonstrated to academics and other elites what street police knew all along. What did it show in interviews with cop killers? Nice guys finish dead. That's right. Most of those offenders commented that the Officer they killed set himself up to be killed because of reluctance to use force early in the encounter.

You can probably find it on line now. A lot of the victim Officers were a lot like a lot of other people, normal people. They were the opposite of their enemy.

Am I advocating becoming the enemy? No. I am saying the person who is robbing you has certain traits, attitudes, and background. That is all.

Dynamics of Encounters

Hold up men target victims on the street in an impulsive, opportunistic manner. They see someone and make a quick judgment call on whether to rob them. The time between when you are targeted and they are on you isn't long. Therefore, situational awareness is everything.

If you see G coming you are in good shape. If you don't you will be the victim who says "He came out of nowhere". No he didn't. There are many tricks to watching out but simply watching your back is the main thing. Watch your back. If you do it enough it becomes second nature and you won't even realize you are doing it.

Watching out is great but unfortunately many self defense courses stop there. You have parked you car in a well lit area, are aware of your surroundings, and looky here, here comes three guys across the parking lot and they start to kind of fan out.

When you lock eyes with G the very first thing you need to do it indicate you have a weapon. It doesn't matter if you do or not. If you are a woman put your gun hand in your purse and keep it there. If you are a man fan your shirt or coat tail with your gun hand. Make it clear to dude you are mentally prepared to draw and making sure your gun is clear. This will many times result in an about face by dude. It is the single best robbery avoidance tactic IMHO.

Not long ago I was walking down the sidewalk in my town to go get my car. I was holding a folding chair in my gun hand. A car slow rolled past me with 4 heads in it. The guys in the back seat turned around as they went by looking at me. They went a little farther and U turned in the street.

Here they come back. As they started to slow down I looked at them with as contemptuous a look as I could muster and switched the chair to my left hand and flicked my shirt tail with my right hand. They just drove on mad dogging me.

In another case I was at a Christmas party and walked a girl to her car about 3 am. As we said our good-byes two guys were walking across the parking lot. One went behind a dumpster. I though he was peeing. He came out from behind the dumpster with a bottle.

As they got closer I stepped clear of that girl and unzipped my jacket at those two guys. When I did the guy threw down the bottle and they walked by cussing at me. If someone challenges you after you indicate you are armed say "I don't have a gun". Then they will know you do.

Here is an opposite story. A girl my brother knows was walking her dog when a guy approached her. She was polite. Mistake. He talked to her about the dog and said she had pretty hair and reached out and touched her hair. She did not slap his hand down or aggressively object. Mistake. He asked her if her dog bit and she said "No". At that time he slapped the shit out of her, drug her into a wooded area, and raped her.

The answer in the street is always "No". Can I ask you something? No. Do you have a cigarette? No. Can you tell me what time it is? No. The answer is always "No". Don't be nice. Stop the encounter as soon as it starts.

When to draw

Despite warnings I often see on the Net I have yet to encounter an instance in which a hold up man called the police to report his intended victim threatened to shoot him. Thugs do not want to come into contact with the police. They may already be wanted or realize chances are good they have been identified in a recent robbery. Or what ever. They are not going to call the police if you draw on them.



Supposed two guys are approaching you in a parking lot and do the classic fan out maneuver. You indicate you have a weapon by clearing your gun hand and fanning your jacket at them. They are not discouraged. DRAW!

I am not saying you should pull your gun out, assume a Weaver stance, and scream "That's close enough motherfuckers!" What I am saying is draw your gun and hold it beside your leg as you start to move to cover. I am very fond of telephone poles. Anything will do though. They will see this. They will remember they have to be somewhere else. They will not call the police.

Then you can just put your gun back in the holster and go back to whatever you were doing like nothing happened. Why? Because nothing did happen. A happening is when shots are fired.

Do not hesitate to draw. If you are somewhere you are supposed to be and someone appears who is not supposed to be there like a closed business show him the end of your gun. Could it be Mother Teresa looking for her lost cat behind your closed business? No it is some motherfucker up to no good. He won't call the police to report he was prowling a location when a guy ran him off.

When to shoot

The time to shoot is immediately upon seeing his weapon. You are not a police man who has to try to arrest the guy. No need to scream at him. No exposure while you yell for him to drop the gun.

In deer hunting the experienced hunter takes the first good shot. May not be the perfect shot but it never is. Novices pass up a doable shot waiting for a better shot and then the deer is gone. Take the first good shot you are offered. Hopefully your alertness and hostile cues will prevent you ever having to fire. But once you see his weapon, shoot.

If a guy is coming at you with a gun in his hand shoot him. Shoot him right then. If you don't shoot first you may not shoot at all. I have known more than one person who was shot and received life changing injuries and also shot their attacker. Their only regret was not shooting sooner. Like Bill Jordan said "Nothing disturbs your enemy's aim like a slug delivered to the belt buckle area".

Guns and weapons

The handgun is the best weapon you can carry easily. I understand it is not always possible to have one due to laws, restrictions, whatever. I am not telling anyone to disregard laws about carrying weapons. Each person has to decide for themselves what they are comfortable with. I will say there is no substitute for a pistol when you need one.


Also if you can not be trusted with a pistol after a few drinks you can't be trusted with a pistol period. Booze is liquid bad judgment no doubt but it shouldn't make you into a damn moron. If you are a moron sober I don't know what to tell you.

Types of guns and ammo are always debated and probably always will be. I have seen people shot with all common calibers. My conclusion is if you hit someone between the collar bone and the tip of their ribs three times with anything, they are handled. Bigger is better but something is better than nothing. Get your front sight on his shirt and stay on him as long as he is standing with whatever gun you have.

Just have a gun with sure fire ammo. Draw early and fire immediately upon seeing his weapon. That course of action is about all you can do to up your odds of ending things favorably. Guns like the Ruger LC9, SIG 239, Glock 26/27 are examples of guns small enough to carry but with enough power and capacity to be useful. Do not be afraid to use a French Lebelle if that is the only gun you have. A gun is a gun. I like a Glock 19.

Training

We all want the best training. It can be expensive if you are having to pay for it and it can be hard to find the time to do it. There is a whole lot of BS out there. What can you do? First, pistol handling is not rocket surgery. If you will learn the basics and practice on your own you can be fine. Smooth draw, quick pairs, reload. If you know those things well you can be OK.

I know a young man who shot down two hold up men in 2010 at very close range while he and his GF were walking home from the store. He in Wyatt Earp like fashion ignored the fire coming from the gunman and killed him and wounded his accomplice. He nor his GF were injured. He like many was willing to give them the money until he picked up on nonverbal cues that because of his GF they were not quite satisfied with the money. He had a Glock 27.

He had only the most basic of training in gun handling but did do some draws and some dry fire a couple times a week and live fired maybe once a month. That basic skill combined with knowing what to do was enough. He shot at the first possible moment despite having let the guys get the drop on them. When the gunman turned his head because a car drove by that was the opening. A split second is a long time sometimes.

Work on some one hand shooting at close range. That is a skill not as popular as it once was and you want to use two hands when you can. Often you can find yourself doing something with your off hand though so be able to shoot with one hand out to 5 yards or so.




After

If it comes to pass you are forced to shoot someone do not feel bad. When the police come just tell them a guy threatened you with deadly force and you were forced to fire. I know there are bad police out there in some parts of the country who don't support self defense. I can't help you with that.

Do not talk to them until you have your attorney present. Now most young guys don't have an attorney on retainer and you may have no idea who to call. That is OK. You will figure it out but in the mean time don't talk about what happened other than to say you were forced to fire. You don't have to be an asshole just remember wait for your attorney.

Hopefully you will not give a statement for a couple days. Remember if you are put in jail that doesn't mean you are charged. Most places can hold you 48 or 72 hours on a felony before charging you or letting you go. Breath deep and get an attorney.

Expect to never get your gun back. You may get it back one day but maybe not. Do not buy expensive guns for the street. Buy yourself a nice sporting gun if you want a nice gun. Keep your street guns basic. The factory Model 10 Smith and the GI 45 have done a lot of work over the years and aren't fancy.

Worlds

We all live in different worlds. My world is filled with felons and gang members. Violence is common place. No one would be surprised if one of their friends called and said they shot a hold up man at a place of business or parking lot. In the past when I made calls the fact that the guy who is beating his GF is also on parole for 2nd degree murder flavored my world.

You may live in a smaller, less violent place where shootings seldom occur and it would be a rare to shoot a hold up man. I envy you and will be moving to a place like your town as soon as I can.

But be advised no matter where you are a hold man is going to be about the same. Whether he is a home boy or a guy who just exited the interstate into your town and needs some quick money. He is going to have a vicious streak and no regard for your life. Treat him like he treats you.

Giving them the money, doing what they say, all that may work but there is no guarantee. If you have never read Jeff Cooper's book The Principles of Personal Defense I suggest you order a copy immediately. It is a short book but summarizes a lot of important things.

Last year we had a trial here regarding an armed robbery that occurred. Three or four guys took a young couple from a parking garage near a college out by some railroad tracks where they raped, shot, and beat them. Their lives will never be the same.

The lesser thugs all turned on the trigger man at trial. The trigger man's statement in the paper was after all that had happened he felt like he was a victim. Think about that. That is the mindset you are up against.

"A stripper last night brought up "Rich Dad Poor Dad" when I mentioned, "Think and Grow Rich""
09-15-2019 12:55 PM
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rapaz12 Offline
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Post: #3
RE: Street robberies and you: the basics
I stopped at "When to draw" since I don't plan on carrying anytime soon, but the rest was helpful and interesting to read.
09-15-2019 01:08 PM
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Foolsgo1d Offline
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Post: #4
RE: Street robberies and you: the basics
Are there any plans on how not to get fucked by the robbers wearing suits and ties?
09-15-2019 01:20 PM
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qwertyuiop Offline
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Post: #5
RE: Street robberies and you: the basics
(09-15-2019 01:20 PM)Foolsgo1d Wrote:  Are there any plans on how not to get fucked by the robbers wearing suits and ties?

Convert to Judaism
09-15-2019 01:31 PM
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idolatry Offline
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Post: #6
RE: Street robberies and you: the basics
This is a bit silly. Flashing your gun to scare away the bad guys, even if they have bottles. Come on. What kind of shit society is it, where you expect everyone to say "NO" when you ask them about a petshop.
09-15-2019 01:49 PM
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Eazy_E Offline
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Post: #7
RE: Street robberies and you: the basics
Take a bottle to the neck or face and get blinded and then say it's not a real weapon. You need to have some discretion. A guy asking what time it is, it's probably a come on. It might not, but judge the book by the cover and proceed from there. Most come ons are harmless bums looking for coins, but sometimes it's also a cover.

I guess I'm saying it's not good to walk around like the world is trying to fuck you, but at the very least, if you kind of look like you pay attention to what's going on around you, that cuts out like 95% of potential problems. They want to "come out of nowhere" not walk up to a guy that's watching them do it.
09-15-2019 02:12 PM
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Easy_C Offline
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Post: #8
RE: Street robberies and you: the basics
Here's some good advice:

1) Have a lawyer on retainer. This is just good practice in general because there's any number of ways you can end up needing that, even if it's just being in the wrong place at the wrong time to get charged with something, an asshole cop decides to cite you for "wreckless driving" (which usually will get you locked up for a few months) or some jackass drops his little baggie of coke on your property (which means you now "possess" it).

2) Take the CCP class anyway even if not needed. Any additional certifications are good as well because they help establish that you were trained and followed your training.

3)Big one: Make sure that some local government officials know you. This is something you should be doing anyway and is as simple a time investment as going to a few "networking" events (which you should be doing anyway because of the other benefits involved) and maybe a town hall event or two. Once you meet people follow the networking advice listed elsewhere in this forum and get to know them. If you can pull in a city councilmember as a character witness it has much bigger impact on judges than does some random schmuck. Keep in mind the justice system is very tribal and they won't dismiss someone who is on the "us" team as easily as they will one of "them" (the stupid general public).

4) Don't do stupid shit to prove point. This includes dumb shit like "well I SHOULD be able to walk around in this neighborhood", or in my background the jackasses who would say "It's America! I should be allowed to wear whatever patch I want on my back!".




I'd throw in another thing. Attitude is most important, but it's not something you can fake. Due to what I've mentioned earlier I have a good skin that I can slip into and it feels relatively natural to me. One thing that you notice immediately when you're hanging out with the kind of guys who have probably shot some people is how non-reactive they are. Very little gets an emotional rise out of them because they are very good at communicating that they're not threatened. I've had some situations where I was able to de-escalate situations that were massively stacked against people I knew just by projecting the body language and mannerisms I'd learned from being proximity to some of the meanest fuckers in the US (and that by that point I'd learned to instinctively wear myself).

Catch is that doesn't work in every situation. People like Somalians don't give a shit and you're not going to make them give a shit.
(This post was last modified: 09-15-2019 02:37 PM by Easy_C.)
09-15-2019 02:27 PM
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Swordfish1010 Offline
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Post: #9
RE: Street robberies and you: the basics
Also keep in mind that if you do run, shooting guns isn’t like in the movies where everyone has aimbot on and can hit moving targets while also moving. If you run away and zig and zag, that is going to be an infinitely harder target for someone to hit than a stationary sitting duck. The hold up men are probably not great marksmen anyways. I would also add that advanced training involves being able to hit moving targets, but that is much further down the road from the basics here.
(This post was last modified: 09-15-2019 04:08 PM by Swordfish1010.)
09-15-2019 04:07 PM
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Easy_C Offline
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Post: #10
RE: Street robberies and you: the basics
Personally telling people to "zig zag" is one common way to spot people who don't actually know what they're talking about. It's one of the most common pieces of terrible advice that's commonly found

https://www.activeresponsetraining.net/d...bad-advice


Result from the link: Running in a straight results in the lowest number of hits and the lowest number of shots fired

Don't run zig zag. That's advice for video games NOT real life. Instead either fire (if you're already at point blank range), drop down to shot (if you're at a longer range and no cover is available), or sprint towards the nearest object that will break line of sight between yourself and the attacker.



Some of you all need to read Ayoob's book. It's a bit dated as far as the social dynamics. but all of what it says as far as self defense tactics is still completely valid. https://www.amazon.com/Gravest-Extreme-F...0936279001
09-15-2019 09:43 PM
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Swordfish1010 Offline
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RE: Street robberies and you: the basics
(09-15-2019 09:43 PM)Easy_C Wrote:  Personally telling people to "zig zag" is one common way to spot people who don't actually know what they're talking about. It's one of the most common pieces of terrible advice that's commonly found

https://www.activeresponsetraining.net/d...bad-advice


Result from the link: Running in a straight results in the lowest number of hits and the lowest number of shots fired

Don't run zig zag. That's advice for video games NOT real life. Instead either fire (if you're already at point blank range), drop down to shot (if you're at a longer range and no cover is available), or sprint towards the nearest object that will break line of sight between yourself and the attacker.



Some of you all need to read Ayoob's book. It's a bit dated as far as the social dynamics. but all of what it says as far as self defense tactics is still completely valid. https://www.amazon.com/Gravest-Extreme-F...0936279001

So you really think you could hit someone easier if they were running back and forth, than if they were running in a straight line? I’m not talking about going sideways but a little angle while getting to nearest cover. Regardless most people would freeze up and not do anything. I’ve actually almost been robbed and as soon as I realized what was going on a sprinted with like two or three zigs and got away, but I guess it didn’t work because some guy on the internet said so.
(This post was last modified: 09-15-2019 11:59 PM by Swordfish1010.)
09-15-2019 11:59 PM
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RWIsrael Offline
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Post: #12
RE: Street robberies and you: the basics
Glad to hear it worked out well for you, but I think you overestimate how quickly you can zigzag.
To the person behind the trigger at close range it makes very little difference, even with a pistol.

Always better to break line of sight, turn a corner, find some cover or just unass the area as quickly as possible.
09-16-2019 02:01 AM
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Leonard D Neubache Offline
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Post: #13
RE: Street robberies and you: the basics
The first time you learn to shoot pistols it's amazing how shit your accuracy is during timed shoots, even if you've used rifles for many years. And this is using an accurate gun with proper grounding in front sight, rear sight, target, footwork etc all on a comfortable shooting range with perhaps baseline adrenaline at most.

It's safe to say that 99 percent of roadside robbery thugs aren't doing much more than pointing in a general direction and pulling the trigger. On that basis your most effective defense will be getting distance and putting stuff in between you and him (cars, telegraph poles, and then as RWI says, the nearest corner).

If you're quick on your feet then within one second your odds of being hit have dropped to low. Within two seconds they've dropped to extremely unlikely.

edit: Talking about subjects like these really make me realize why bachelors really don't get it when it comes to societal decline. They have the viable option to simply run away from everything. Even the whole country if it comes to that. Try the whole "just go fetal or run away" shtick when you have a pregnant wife and a three year old child with you.

God demands of Man responsibility. God demands of Woman vulnerability. These are their curse and blessing alike. Libertianism is to Man as Feminism is to Woman.
(This post was last modified: 09-16-2019 04:39 AM by Leonard D Neubache.)
09-16-2019 04:04 AM
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Richard Turpin Offline
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Post: #14
RE: Street robberies and you: the basics
We're not allowed guns in the ©UK of course, but I really regret the fact that it's no longer considered fashionable for gentlemen to carry canes wherever they go!

I carry a stout stick around with me when I walk the dog. Just so I've got something to hit other dogs with when they attack mine (happens all the time with careless owners). A stick can't beat a gun of course, but you could easily ruin some bad guy's day with a few hefty smacks or a couple of sharp prods.

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To worry about history’ – Tim Allen
(This post was last modified: 09-16-2019 04:22 AM by Richard Turpin.)
09-16-2019 04:20 AM
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Post: #15
RE: Street robberies and you: the basics
(09-15-2019 11:59 PM)Swordfish1010 Wrote:  
(09-15-2019 09:43 PM)Easy_C Wrote:  Personally telling people to "zig zag" is one common way to spot people who don't actually know what they're talking about. It's one of the most common pieces of terrible advice that's commonly found

https://www.activeresponsetraining.net/d...bad-advice


Result from the link: Running in a straight results in the lowest number of hits and the lowest number of shots fired

Don't run zig zag. That's advice for video games NOT real life. Instead either fire (if you're already at point blank range), drop down to shot (if you're at a longer range and no cover is available), or sprint towards the nearest object that will break line of sight between yourself and the attacker.



Some of you all need to read Ayoob's book. It's a bit dated as far as the social dynamics. but all of what it says as far as self defense tactics is still completely valid. https://www.amazon.com/Gravest-Extreme-F...0936279001

So you really think you could hit someone easier if they were running back and forth, than if they were running in a straight line? I’m not talking about going sideways but a little angle while getting to nearest cover. Regardless most people would freeze up and not do anything. I’ve actually almost been robbed and as soon as I realized what was going on a sprinted with like two or three zigs and got away, but I guess it didn’t work because some guy on the internet said so.

Yes.

Because you don't zig-zag enough to actually dodge bullets, and because running in a straight line to cover means they have fewer changes to actually hit you.

[Image: results-running-zigzag.jpg]

Besides which most of the time people's aim sucks. It's better to think of aim as being more like a "cone" (look at how shots scatter during drills) and unless you're moving fast enough to be going outside that cone then you aren't significantly improving your odds. Otherwise they're just as likely to miss their original aiming point and still hit you because you dodged that way. If you don't believe go ahead and actually try out zig-zag running in a gym with a camera, then look back at the film and tell me whether you think what you see would be effective. If you zig-zag substantially you might be slightly less likely to be hit, but the additional distance and lower speed of your travel means a lot more bullets will be coming at you

The most important thing is to break line of sight as quickly as possible so that there's fewer shots fired in the first place. Second most important thing is to minimize the silhoutte that you're presenting an opponent, but doing so in a meaningful way requires you to have some significant distance and/or cover.



Note: I am NOT one of those guys who was just "cleaning toilets in Iraq" as LDN so derisively puts it. At risk of putting some personal info out there I"m a purple heart holder. Didn't get that one from a gunshot but having it should be enough to dispel any notion that I was a desk jockey.
(This post was last modified: 09-16-2019 08:35 AM by Easy_C.)
09-16-2019 08:26 AM
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Leonard D Neubache Offline
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Post: #16
RE: Street robberies and you: the basics
(09-16-2019 08:26 AM)Easy_C Wrote:  ...
Note: I am NOT one of those guys who was just "cleaning toilets in Iraq" as LDN so derisively puts it. At risk of putting some personal info out there I"m a purple heart holder. Didn't get that one from a gunshot but having it should be enough to dispel any notion that I was a desk jockey.

I better not catch you giving advice on bathroom sanitation.

God demands of Man responsibility. God demands of Woman vulnerability. These are their curse and blessing alike. Libertianism is to Man as Feminism is to Woman.
09-16-2019 08:41 AM
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El Chinito loco Offline
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Post: #17
RE: Street robberies and you: the basics
Want to avoid crime? Avoid areas or countries with lots of latinos or blacks. No reason to zig zag when getting shot at. Chances are you will die in your car or bed anyways just when you least expect it while you get robbed and your loved one gang raped in front of you.

Just avoid the obvious problem.

I mean this is a "wacist" thing to say but it is absolutely true.

Once you control for that factor then your potential exposure to crime drops.
09-16-2019 08:43 AM
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Post: #18
RE: Street robberies and you: the basics
To double post:

The mistake being made is thinking that other people are like you. They are not and they neither think nor behave like you.

You all are thinking about "zig zagging" from the perspective of someone rationally aiming at you. If you're trying to follow the standard "aim down the barrel and squeeze the trigger on the out-breath" then yeah that's obviously harder with a moving target.

That's not how third world types do it. They whip out the gun, point it in your general direction, and start blasting as fast as they can pull the trigger. They aren't aiming particularly well because they don't actually understand how to operate a firearm beyond "pull the trigger and the bullets fly out". There is a reason that the military has the slang term "death blossom" which refers to how Taliban types (and the Africans that we officially aren't in brush wars with) fight by just spraying bullets out uncontrolled.
(This post was last modified: 09-16-2019 08:44 AM by Easy_C.)
09-16-2019 08:43 AM
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Post: #19
RE: Street robberies and you: the basics
How about this for a solution: Don't live in an area where shit like this happens. If you do live somewhere dangerous (as I once have), start planning a way to get out asap. Every minute spent in such places increases your risk of death/dismemberment substantially. For those that have made it out of rough places in one piece, count your blessings and never look back.
09-16-2019 10:33 AM
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Post: #20
RE: Street robberies and you: the basics
You live anywhere near a bus line or a light rail? Then you're in the line of fire because that's the easiest way for the raiding parties to get into where the juicy victims are. They might live in hovels far away, but they have cars and busses.
09-16-2019 10:38 AM
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Post: #21
RE: Street robberies and you: the basics
(09-16-2019 10:38 AM)Eazy_E Wrote:  You live anywhere near a bus line or a light rail? Then you're in the line of fire because that's the easiest way for the raiding parties to get into where the juicy victims are. They might live in hovels far away, but they have cars and busses.


You know what's funny?

In a civilized city with a mostly homogeneous ppopulation if you live near public transport like the MRT it means the location is highly sought after and chances are you're fairly well off.

In the U.S. it means you're poor and it's most likely dangerous.
09-16-2019 10:43 AM
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Post: #22
RE: Street robberies and you: the basics
(09-16-2019 02:01 AM)RWIsrael Wrote:  Glad to hear it worked out well for you, but I think you overestimate how quickly you can zigzag.
To the person behind the trigger at close range it makes very little difference, even with a pistol.

Always better to break line of sight, turn a corner, find some cover or just unass the area as quickly as possible.

Yeah this is why situational awareness is so important. As soon as I saw the gangsters start to approach my group of friends, we bolted. Most sheltered kids would have waited and asked what they needed lol. Definitely distance is most important. Hitting long distance pistol shots is ridiculously hard. Yeah I bought a glock right afterwards.
09-16-2019 01:29 PM
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Post: #23
RE: Street robberies and you: the basics
(09-16-2019 08:26 AM)Easy_C Wrote:  
(09-15-2019 11:59 PM)Swordfish1010 Wrote:  
(09-15-2019 09:43 PM)Easy_C Wrote:  Personally telling people to "zig zag" is one common way to spot people who don't actually know what they're talking about. It's one of the most common pieces of terrible advice that's commonly found

https://www.activeresponsetraining.net/d...bad-advice


Result from the link: Running in a straight results in the lowest number of hits and the lowest number of shots fired

Don't run zig zag. That's advice for video games NOT real life. Instead either fire (if you're already at point blank range), drop down to shot (if you're at a longer range and no cover is available), or sprint towards the nearest object that will break line of sight between yourself and the attacker.



Some of you all need to read Ayoob's book. It's a bit dated as far as the social dynamics. but all of what it says as far as self defense tactics is still completely valid. https://www.amazon.com/Gravest-Extreme-F...0936279001

So you really think you could hit someone easier if they were running back and forth, than if they were running in a straight line? I’m not talking about going sideways but a little angle while getting to nearest cover. Regardless most people would freeze up and not do anything. I’ve actually almost been robbed and as soon as I realized what was going on a sprinted with like two or three zigs and got away, but I guess it didn’t work because some guy on the internet said so.

Yes.

Because you don't zig-zag enough to actually dodge bullets, and because running in a straight line to cover means they have fewer changes to actually hit you.

[Image: results-running-zigzag.jpg]

Besides which most of the time people's aim sucks. It's better to think of aim as being more like a "cone" (look at how shots scatter during drills) and unless you're moving fast enough to be going outside that cone then you aren't significantly improving your odds. Otherwise they're just as likely to miss their original aiming point and still hit you because you dodged that way. If you don't believe go ahead and actually try out zig-zag running in a gym with a camera, then look back at the film and tell me whether you think what you see would be effective. If you zig-zag substantially you might be slightly less likely to be hit, but the additional distance and lower speed of your travel means a lot more bullets will be coming at you

The most important thing is to break line of sight as quickly as possible so that there's fewer shots fired in the first place. Second most important thing is to minimize the silhoutte that you're presenting an opponent, but doing so in a meaningful way requires you to have some significant distance and/or cover.



Note: I am NOT one of those guys who was just "cleaning toilets in Iraq" as LDN so derisively puts it. At risk of putting some personal info out there I"m a purple heart holder. Didn't get that one from a gunshot but having it should be enough to dispel any notion that I was a desk jockey.
The percentage of fatal shots went way down with zig zagging. Regardless, the idea is still true that hitting a moving target is way harder, and gets harder the further away. Anyone with any shooting experience knows this inherently.
09-16-2019 01:34 PM
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El Chinito loco Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Street robberies and you: the basics
(09-16-2019 08:43 AM)Easy_C Wrote:  That's not how third world types do it. They whip out the gun, point it in your general direction, and start blasting as fast as they can pull the trigger. They aren't aiming particularly well because they don't actually understand how to operate a firearm beyond "pull the trigger and the bullets fly out". There is a reason that the military has the slang term "death blossom" which refers to how Taliban types (and the Africans that we officially aren't in brush wars with) fight by just spraying bullets out uncontrolled.

Hmmm interesting so it's not too different from American urban primates who shoot holding the firearm sideways while punctuating the recoil with punching motions and shouting expletives about "yo mama."
09-16-2019 01:46 PM
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Post: #25
RE: Street robberies and you: the basics
This is all assuming that the mugger's response to you running will always be just to start firing the gun. If he gives chase then just running as fast as possible is the better option.
09-16-2019 03:10 PM
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