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The 2019 Schism in the Manosphere
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ArloDash Offline
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The 2019 Schism in the Manosphere
A few years ago, I recall seeing people discussing how there was a schism in the manosphere.

Roosh was the one who brought this up, mentioning how he was branching away from the Red Pill and rebranding with Neomasculinity as the Reddit TRP slowly began to degenerate.

In 2019, however, I'd argue that there is a MUCH greater schism happening than ever before.

I first got into reading this content in 2016. It was a simpler time. Since then, I can say there are some clear divisions that have arisen within our space.

I'd say that the manosphere is now broken down into three sections: the God Pill, Extreme Lifestyle Gurus, the Moderates.

The God/Morality Pill. Self-explanatory. People who now denounced casual sex and hookup culture and advocate wholesome relations with women. Less emphasis on chasing wealth. This includes Roosh, Owen Benjamin, formerly JBP (who is no longer part of our community but helped to bring attention to this), and perhaps Mike Cernovich to a degree as he's started to distance himself from some of his old, more hardcore material.

Extreme Lifestyle Gurus: These are the guys who are talking about Lamborghinis, three girlfriends, and running cam studios. They market heavily on Instagram. They almost always live in Eastern Europe. This is mainly comprised of Andrew Tate (whose content I enjoy for shock value alone) and the people who are popping up in orbit of him. Max Tornow (former RSD) falls into this as well. I can see a few guys who will probably pop off soon that come from his circle soon as well.

The Moderates: This is the most far-reaching branch of TRP, the "centrists" if you will. This is not meant to denigrate these guys, as they're probably the most relatable of the entire sphere. I'm simply stating they don't veer quite as extreme as either group. Obviously, this group has the most people in it. Guys in this corner include Rollo Tomassi's crew, notably Richard Cooper (Entrepreneurs in Cars), Rian Stone, and others.

I'd say that between these three camps, that encompasses most people. But, it's a stark divide between the rhetoric from each camp. One group encourages you to find God, the other tells you to buy a $1000 course after sprinkling you with some decently actionable advice, and the last is where most guys begin their journey with this material.

On top of that, let's not forget how JBP, Joe Rogan and Mark Manson have all completely softened their messages to the point where they fit into normie subculture, and other guys have stopped producing content altogether.

Thoughts?
10-26-2019 04:07 PM
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MichaelWitcoff Online
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RE: The 2019 Schism in the Manosphere
Once you find and begin to read the Church Fathers, about 90% of the Manosphere becomes irrelevant.

Jewish convert to Orthodox Christianity and best-selling author of "On The Masons And Their Lies."
10-26-2019 04:24 PM
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infowarrior1 Offline
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RE: The 2019 Schism in the Manosphere
@MichaelWitcoff

The church fathers were some of the best "shitposters" just like our Lord himself.

What a contrast to faggy ned flanderian churchianity.
10-26-2019 08:47 PM
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RawGod Offline
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Post: #4
RE: The 2019 Schism in the Manosphere
(10-26-2019 04:24 PM)MichaelWitcoff Wrote:  Once you find and begin to read the Church Fathers, about 90% of the Manosphere becomes irrelevant.

The Church Fathers left a massive, discursive and uneven body of work. We're talking a library full. Just to understand Augustine, people study a lifetime.

Why would you recommend that secondary body of Christian texts over the Bible, especially here, where most posters are new to Christianity and struggle just to get a grip on the New Testament?

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(This post was last modified: 10-26-2019 09:01 PM by RawGod.)
10-26-2019 09:00 PM
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nek Offline
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RE: The 2019 Schism in the Manosphere
Who are the chuch fathers?

Civilize the mind but make savage the body.
10-26-2019 09:05 PM
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RawGod Offline
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RE: The 2019 Schism in the Manosphere
(10-26-2019 09:05 PM)nek Wrote:  Who are the chuch fathers?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Fathers

The Church Fathers were early leaders and saints of the Christian Church who wrote in Latin and Greek in the centuries after Christ. They did NOT write the Bible and their works are NOT considered canon or divinely inspired on the level of the Bible. Their works, as I mentioned, are voluminous and often considered difficult and the province of scholars or serious devotees. Some of the works are more accessible and useful for devotional purposes, but 90% of the works would be difficult to derive day to day value from, for the average believer today.

I say this not to disparage their work, but I'm concerned at the term bring thrown around on a forum where, as I said, many men here first need to get a grip on the main text of Christianity - the Bible. Augustine and Aquinas can come later - much later, for most.

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(This post was last modified: 10-26-2019 09:16 PM by RawGod.)
10-26-2019 09:16 PM
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MichaelWitcoff Online
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RE: The 2019 Schism in the Manosphere
There is no Bible without the Church Fathers, in the sense that the tricky passages were interpreted by them, in the sense that the beliefs of the ancient Church were dogmatized by them, in the sense that they were always looked to as living examples of Christian male formation, and in the sense that they were the ones who put the titles, chapters, and verses on what were otherwise scripta continua manuscripts without distinctions or any easy way to tell where you were in any given book or letter - not to mention that they were the ones who ultimately canonized Scripture in the first place. So yes the Bible is the primary Christian text. But it’s very easy to miss enormous sections and meanings and contexts without being guided by the Fathers who put it together for us in the first place.

The Bible without patristic guidance is why there are now something like 30-40,000 denominations of Protestantism, each and every one of which claims the Bible as sole authority and that they simply “believe the clear teachings of Scripture.” Every canonical Orthodox Church around the world has the exact same beliefs on all the major topics, because the Body of Christ is one and not many.

Technically speaking, the Nicene Creed was formulated before the Bible was canonized - and it remains the symbol of faith, unchanged, to this day. It is a formal expression of the Truth to which the Bible points, and each line of it is also directly from Scripture, and the Church owes the Fathers for putting it down on paper so all future generations would know what constitutes orthodox (correct) Christian belief.

Should we read from the Bible? Absolutely, every single day. But keep your understanding between the lines the Fathers drew, because they were drawn for your own spiritual safety in the first place. Hope that makes sense.

Jewish convert to Orthodox Christianity and best-selling author of "On The Masons And Their Lies."
(This post was last modified: 10-26-2019 09:28 PM by MichaelWitcoff.)
10-26-2019 09:23 PM
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RawGod Offline
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RE: The 2019 Schism in the Manosphere
I broadly agree with you Michael. Just wanted to add some perspective as my reading was that many posters here don't quite have straight the various strands of Christian tradition, who the Apostles were vs the Fathers, and so on.

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10-26-2019 09:45 PM
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MichaelWitcoff Online
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RE: The 2019 Schism in the Manosphere
That’s a fair point. Basically you have the Apostles, the men who knew Christ directly or almost directly, some of whom were the human authors through which the Holy Spirit wrote the New Testament.

Then you have the Apostolic Fathers, three first century bishops whose spiritual fathers were Apostles - St. Ignatius of Antioch, St. Polycarp of Smyrna, and St. Clement of Rome (Clement is mentioned in the Bible).

After that you have a number of other pillars of the faith from the second through 8th century, generally ending with St. John Damascene (though I’ve heard people talk about ‘modern Church Fathers’ as well), who are basically the ones who explored the highest tiers of theology and praxis and then formulated their opinions and thoughts on the faith. They didn’t agree with each other on everything, but the Orthodox believe that in the places where there was wide consensus, this is a good indication that Truth has been revealed.

There is also a big difference between dogma, doctrine, canon law, personal theological opinions, etc, but I’m talking about the guys who were largely responsible for spreading the faith and sharpening what exactly it means to follow it.

The reason this is important (or one of many I should say) is that everything’s built on what came before it, for 2,000 years of collected wisdom. We know what all the heresies are, what debates have already been had and settled, etc. Modern Protestantism, at least of the evangelical low-church kind, is utterly rootless and ignorant of Christian history - so what you see in that sphere is almost entirely the reiteration of ancient heresies, debates that were settled a thousand years ago, and “pastors” all trying to reinvent the wheel from scratch. There’s no need for any of it when you have what the Orthodox have, though that’s not to say that all Protestants are evil or bad or anything of that nature. It’s largely the doctrines, not the people, that range all the way from decently orthodox to outright falsehood.

My original point was simply that once you see what true men of God were like, there’s no reason to follow most (or any) of the secular Manosphere guys on the internet (except perhaps to learn specific skills).

Hope that clears up my intention with the post.

Jewish convert to Orthodox Christianity and best-selling author of "On The Masons And Their Lies."
(This post was last modified: 10-26-2019 09:59 PM by MichaelWitcoff.)
10-26-2019 09:51 PM
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VNvet Offline
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RE: The 2019 Schism in the Manosphere
(10-26-2019 04:07 PM)ArloDash Wrote:  Extreme Lifestyle Gurus: These are the guys who are talking about Lamborghinis, three girlfriends, and running cam studios. They market heavily on Instagram. They almost always live in Eastern Europe. This is mainly comprised of Andrew Tate (whose content I enjoy for shock value alone) and the people who are popping up in orbit of him. Max Tornow (former RSD) falls into this as well. I can see a few guys who will probably pop off soon that come from his circle soon as well.

Does anyone even watch these clowns?

Andrew Tate gets a couple thousand views on his videos, and he has an MLM/grifter vibe more than a manosphere vibe. His big problem is that he's not that intelligent, so his videos don't have much substance other than "look at my money" and "buy my course."

The real manosphere split is between guys that focus on societal issues (Roosh, Heartiste, Vox) and guys like Rollo that focus exclusively on women. And the guys that focus exclusively on women don't seem to have a very big audience anymore. Quite frankly, women aren't that interesting of a topic in the current political landscape.

We got much bigger problems.
(This post was last modified: 10-26-2019 10:06 PM by VNvet.)
10-26-2019 10:03 PM
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CynicalContrarian Offline
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RE: The 2019 Schism in the Manosphere
Hedonism is hollow.

I of course can not speak for Roosh.
Yet I would not be surprised if a major factor of his personal shift, is due to hedonism not being able to facilitate actual contentment / meaning / purpose.
Especially not in the long-term.

Quote:...Desensitized to everything
What became of subtlety?...

(This post was last modified: 10-26-2019 10:10 PM by CynicalContrarian.)
10-26-2019 10:09 PM
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Athanasius Offline
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RE: The 2019 Schism in the Manosphere
(10-26-2019 09:23 PM)MichaelWitcoff Wrote:  There is no Bible without the Church Fathers, in the sense that the tricky passages were interpreted by them, in the sense that the beliefs of the ancient Church were dogmatized by them, in the sense that they were always looked to as living examples of Christian male formation, and in the sense that they were the ones who put the titles, chapters, and verses on what were otherwise scripta continua manuscripts without distinctions or any easy way to tell where you were in any given book or letter - not to mention that they were the ones who ultimately canonized Scripture in the first place. So yes the Bible is the primary Christian text. But it’s very easy to miss enormous sections and meanings and contexts without being guided by the Fathers who put it together for us in the first place.

The Bible without patristic guidance is why there are now something like 30-40,000 denominations of Protestantism, each and every one of which claims the Bible as sole authority and that they simply “believe the clear teachings of Scripture.” Every canonical Orthodox Church around the world has the exact same beliefs on all the major topics, because the Body of Christ is one and not many.

Technically speaking, the Nicene Creed was formulated before the Bible was canonized - and it remains the symbol of faith, unchanged, to this day. It is a formal expression of the Truth to which the Bible points, and each line of it is also directly from Scripture, and the Church owes the Fathers for putting it down on paper so all future generations would know what constitutes orthodox (correct) Christian belief.

Should we read from the Bible? Absolutely, every single day. But keep your understanding between the lines the Fathers drew, because they were drawn for your own spiritual safety in the first place. Hope that makes sense.

While today's canon wasn't fully accepted by Nicaea, there was a mostly accepted canon long before then. There were a few disputed books and different areas had access to different materials given scattershot distribution those first several centuries when the church was underground and subject to persecution, but I know of no historic disagreement about the Gospels, Acts, Romans, etc. These books were in use as far back as we can go (e.g. the Muratorian fragment).

Wikipedia (SJWpedia) incorrectly defines Sola Scriptura as sole authority, but Infogalactic is more accurate: "Sola scriptura (Latin ablative, by Scripture alone) is the Christian doctrine that the Bible is the supreme authority in all matters of doctrine and practice. Sola scriptura does not deny that other authorities govern Christian life and devotion, but sees them all as subordinate to and corrected by the written word of God." To put it another way, the Bible is the word of God and thus the only infallible rule/standard of faith for the church. That's why all protestant denoms have their own confessions. The difference between sole and supreme is an important one.
10-26-2019 11:18 PM
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NoMoreTO Offline
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RE: The 2019 Schism in the Manosphere
I generally agree with OPs' analysis.

Lets separate the manosphere from Christianity. I like some of the points about the wisdom of the saints, but its' a separate idea to me. The manosphere conceptually breaks out loosely into red pill, black pill, abundance lifestyle, building status, pickup skills, politics, life philosophy, self improvement, and now also a Christian revival portion.

The manosphere deals with modern world, and male intelligence on how to navigate it. This is life experience, books, knowledge, following the lies. Yes the saints are wise and holy, but the manosphere is still a worldly place, dealing with worldly topics.

I'd guess the manosphere is largely western guys who know society is messed up, these guys lack community, often families, and they are looking for a solution, and digging into societies bigger problems such as politics, culture, feminism, SJWs, and trying to find solutions for themselves, which can be as practical as how to get a girl, to shutting down SJWs in the workplace, to the meaning of life.

Its only natural that Christianity will re-emerge to many who truly take stock of their lives, especially given that they are from historically Christian Cultures and backgrounds. Christians can read manosphere content and manosphere guys can read the Christian content. But after a while, the schism will indeed widen, as schisms do.

“Where the danger is, so grows the saving element.” ~ German poet Hoelderlin
(This post was last modified: 10-26-2019 11:32 PM by NoMoreTO.)
10-26-2019 11:29 PM
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BlastbeatCasanova Offline
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RE: The 2019 Schism in the Manosphere
I reckon if you spend your days studying and analyzing texts that were written hundreds of years ago you won't have time to be tempted into sin. Soul = saved
10-27-2019 10:56 AM
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debeguiled Offline
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RE: The 2019 Schism in the Manosphere
(10-26-2019 09:00 PM)RawGod Wrote:  
(10-26-2019 04:24 PM)MichaelWitcoff Wrote:  Once you find and begin to read the Church Fathers, about 90% of the Manosphere becomes irrelevant.

The Church Fathers left a massive, discursive and uneven body of work. We're talking a library full. Just to understand Augustine, people study a lifetime.

Why would you recommend that secondary body of Christian texts over the Bible, especially here, where most posters are new to Christianity and struggle just to get a grip on the New Testament?

Agreed.

Also, some people have had such horrific, often repeated, experiences with Christians and churches that there is no way they will ever go to a church again, and even if they did, plowing through the church fathers is less likely for them than hopping on an Elon Musk rocket an repopulating the moon.

It is a simple fact as well that reading that old style of writing is simply beyond what many people are capable of or willing to do.

And that doesn't make them any less Christian because of it. Sometimes I think that all the varied, complicated aspects of Christian theology were created by God to keep intellectuals out of everyone else's hair while they got on with loving their neighbor.

Saying stuff like this is essentially a silencing tactic, and is pretty dismissive, though not necessarily consciously.

Many of us owe a lot to the manosphere because before it came along, all we had were vague notions and unspoken personal experiences, and the simple fact that we came across other men out there, a lot it turns out, who had similar experiences to our own was immensely reassuring in the sense that we should have trusted our own perceptions and intuitions all along despite the fact that they went against the cultural narrative.

The OP is making an effort to define the current state of things, and that is to his credit.

There is no need to dismiss his efforts by appealing to the specific writings of a specific religion.

Let him speculate and let other people discuss. The Lord works in many ways, and it is incorrect to dismiss anything that doesn't have the explicit imprimatur of the church, especially when it is the churches themselves that drive many people to seek help elsewhere.

“That sig BTW is a very asinine anti-family anti-parent quote. You live in a country where 40% of children grow up without a biological father, yet somehow “the greatest burden a child must bear is the unlived life of its parents”? Sorry but this is fruity Boomer nonsense.”

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10-27-2019 12:43 PM
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RE: The 2019 Schism in the Manosphere
We are at a war for our countries and civilizations. If men of old where worried about women instead of defending their land, we wouldn't be having this "dilemma" right now. There would be nothing left to defend.

"Christian love bears evil, but it does not tolerate it. It does penance for the sins of others, but it is not broadminded about sin. Real love involves real hatred: whoever has lost the power of moral indignation and the urge to drive the sellers from temples has also lost a living, fervent love of Truth."

- Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen
10-27-2019 07:55 PM
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RE: The 2019 Schism in the Manosphere
Red-pill had a very narrow mission-statement. Reverse-engineer female nature and employ that knowledge to maximize your quality of life. Blue-pill is a state of ignorance about female nature and red-pill is a state of enlightenment. That's what it is. Nothing more, nothing less.

Two things made red-pill more political, the election of Donald Trump and the black hole of the #MeToo movement (which includes the wokification of Hollywood, Gillette ad, cancel culture and general feminist overreach).

Where before red-pill felt like a simple set of skills or techniques that men of any persuasion should learn for their own betterment and protection, now things are being framed more akin to a political party, a sort of bulwark against a creeping feminist dystopia.

I just think it's a lot easier to appeal to men of different backgrounds when it's about exchanging practical tips on how to get laid rather than that the solution to them feeling adrift in the battle of the sexes is to read Thomas Aquinas.

So when you look at it from a bird's eye view the NPC/SJWs are executing what looks like a pretty damn successful slash-and-burn through the culture-war and red-pill is on the run, splitting apart, purity-testing and purging their own communities.

The way things are going, it's only going to get worse, not better.
10-27-2019 08:42 PM
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RE: The 2019 Schism in the Manosphere
(10-27-2019 08:42 PM)questor70 Wrote:  I just think it's a lot easier to appeal to men of different backgrounds when it's about exchanging practical tips on how to get laid rather than that the solution to them feeling adrift in the battle of the sexes is to read Thomas Aquinas.

This is clearly the case but also shows us that what was "easier", and essentially an attempt at a hollow or quick fix, clearly couldn't last. Which is why we are talking about it right now.

As we've seen, just getting laid doesn't really help anybody. It just brings forth new challenges, some worse than the first.
(This post was last modified: 10-27-2019 10:39 PM by Kid Twist.)
10-27-2019 10:39 PM
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RE: The 2019 Schism in the Manosphere
(10-27-2019 08:42 PM)questor70 Wrote:  So when you look at it from a bird's eye view the NPC/SJWs are executing what looks like a pretty damn successful slash-and-burn through the culture-war and red-pill is on the run, splitting apart, purity-testing and purging their own communities.

...

The way things are going, it's only going to get worse, not better.

It's fairly easy when you have the entire establishment supporting you. Even then, it's still a house of cards held up by censorship and angry mobs. Just look at the comments or like/dislike ratio on any 'woke' YouTube video.

The takedown of Charlie Kirk by Nick Fuentes is a good example of how delicate their operation actually is.
10-27-2019 11:03 PM
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Post: #20
RE: The 2019 Schism in the Manosphere
Schisms don't matter much. The Red Pill is the basis of the knowledge including Game. How you apply it is up to you - you can become a Playboy or a church-going father who uses Game only on his wife and professionally.

The Manosphere never was uniform or a movement even if it appeared like that for a while because so many for a while were busy getting laid and applying, learning more Game. But even then there were the religious guys who used it in their marriage-oriented ways, there were the happily married men like Rollo who had no intention of cheating on their wives and then there was the majority of men who learned a bit of Game in order to find a girlfriend.

So long as you accept the Red Pill and the veracity, then you are part of 'sphere. The only schism that is relevant is between those who deny Game and end up going MGTOW, become Red Pill incels, furries or robot-fuckers. There is a chasm between those guys. Everyone else usually can get along fine as we agree on the basics.
10-28-2019 05:49 AM
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RE: The 2019 Schism in the Manosphere
@debeguiled

The manosphere helped me come to a deep understanding of scripture. And helped in my deprogramming process. My life was never the same afterwards.
10-28-2019 05:54 AM
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RE: The 2019 Schism in the Manosphere
(10-28-2019 05:54 AM)infowarrior1 Wrote:  @debeguiled

The manosphere helped me come to a deep understanding of scripture. And helped in my deprogramming process. My life was never the same afterwards.

Right.

There is no need to dismiss anything that isn't church related.

God's hand is working in all sorts of places.

“That sig BTW is a very asinine anti-family anti-parent quote. You live in a country where 40% of children grow up without a biological father, yet somehow “the greatest burden a child must bear is the unlived life of its parents”? Sorry but this is fruity Boomer nonsense.”

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10-28-2019 11:45 AM
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Post: #23
RE: The 2019 Schism in the Manosphere
(10-27-2019 10:39 PM)Kid Twist Wrote:  This is clearly the case but also shows us that what was "easier", and essentially an attempt at a hollow or quick fix, clearly couldn't last. Which is why we are talking about it right now.
As we've seen, just getting laid doesn't really help anybody. It just brings forth new challenges, some worse than the first.

From my perspective the problems in gender relations is macro-level and therefore calls out for a macro-level response. I say the following not to incite, but I have yet to see how the new God pill approach will realistically bring that about. At present it feels awfully like a strategic retreat to a sugarcoated flavor of MGTOW.
10-28-2019 01:10 PM
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Roosh Offline
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Post: #24
RE: The 2019 Schism in the Manosphere
^ God is not about receiving material benefits or ridding the world of evil. It's about your salvation. If you are not personally concerned about your salvation, don't hold your breath about any perceived future God pill benefit to an observer.

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10-28-2019 02:01 PM
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setian Offline
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Post: #25
RE: The 2019 Schism in the Manosphere
(10-28-2019 01:10 PM)questor70 Wrote:  From my perspective the problems in gender relations is macro-level and therefore calls out for a macro-level response. I say the following not to incite, but I have yet to see how the new God pill approach will realistically bring that about. At present it feels awfully like a strategic retreat to a sugarcoated flavor of MGTOW.

The manosphere has been plagued by a lot of disunity from its inception, as people disagreed on a variety of issues once they starting having more ambitious goals than just trying to pick up girls at clubs. It wasn't enough to just be opposed to feminism; we have to figure out what we're actually for. (It's like how Democrats are finding they can't really govern as long as all they have bringing them together is opposition to Trump.)

It was a nice experiment to see if game theory alone would be enough to get men united behind a common agenda for the necessary social reforms, but it didn't work. So, a larger, more comprehensive framework was needed. Neomasculinity was an attempt at that, but it didn't catch on, so now we move on to god theory.

People seem to need a religion of some sort, some set of principles that are accepted on faith to avoid constant arguments that would otherwise undermine the group's ability to function as a cohesive unit. People can quibble about epistemology, but in a world where evidence about the nature of man, our place in the universe, etc., are often ambiguous or hard to come by, the facts are sometimes less important than getting men united behind an approach that will work.
(This post was last modified: 11-16-2019 08:09 AM by setian.)
11-16-2019 07:46 AM
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