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My wife doesn't love me anymore and I think we will get divorced. What should I do?
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RoastBeefCurtains4Me Offline
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Post: #51
RE: My wife doesn't love me anymore and I think we will get divorced. What should I do?
I haven't seen anybody here say this. You need to consider that she is the one who committed a deal breaker against you. Others have focused on the fact that she was not satisfied, and you should have gamed her more. This puts the ball in her court as far as approving of you or not. Many have said you should divorce, and they are right, but it comes off as cutting your losses because you failed to maintain her approval.

I say bullshit. Divorce her, because she failed to maintain your approval. You are a good man with prospects. Obviously you have prospects, because you now have a high paying job at 26. She is dissatisfied with you that you were not constantly dancing like a monkey to keep her entertained and turned on? She doesn't have the maturity and character to commit to the man she has married, and work to build a life together? She goes out on a date with a co-worker and gets starry eyed for him?

She is a shitty, worthless wife. Reject her. Remove her from your life. Punish her with your absence. Take from her the good life she could have looked forward to with you. Do not accept or even respond to her requests to take her back, which she will do when you follow this advice. She had her chance, and she blew it.

Do not put up with this. Dump her, break your lease and pay the early termination fee if necessary. Throw her out on her own, with whatever half of the savings she will get. Legally divorce her, then leave the country.

She deserves it.

I'm the tower of power, too sweet to be sour. I'm funky like a monkey. Sky's the limit and space is the place!
-Randy Savage
(This post was last modified: 11-19-2019 02:59 PM by RoastBeefCurtains4Me.)
11-19-2019 02:50 PM
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AntoniusofEfa Offline
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Post: #52
RE: My wife doesn't love me anymore and I think we will get divorced. What should I do?
^ This is the only thing OP can do now. Sooner or later she will file for divorce herself, or even worse, cuck him with someone else's kids.
(This post was last modified: 11-19-2019 03:03 PM by AntoniusofEfa.)
11-19-2019 03:02 PM
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Nascimento Offline
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Post: #53
RE: My wife doesn't love me anymore and I think we will get divorced. What should I do?
For many years, SnowHugger has been a good friend of mine. I'm very happy to see the amount of valuable insight, wisdom, and advice that's been shared. It's truly wonderful. The only thing greater was the willingness to help out a fellow man in a crisis. Moments like these make me very grateful to know there is a community like this we can turn to when tragedy falls.

It's going to hurt man, and it hasn't hit you yet. But honestly, it will be short term pain, long term gain. As has been mentioned, this could have been a lot worse, and there's a lot to be grateful for. This move will be taking your life in a completely new direction, with a lot of promise and little to worry about. You'll take your lessons learned, which you'll identify and understand in time, with you. You don't know this yet, but you'll do better than her, because you'll have learned from this among other experiences and will be in a better position than you were in when you first met this girl (remember how far you've come already since then?). If not for this, it will be because you can do better quite simply, and that I know and confirm.
11-19-2019 03:37 PM
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Post: #54
RE: My wife doesn't love me anymore and I think we will get divorced. What should I do?
If you just landed a 100k+ job I'd get out ASAP
11-19-2019 04:42 PM
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PainPositive Offline
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Post: #55
RE: My wife doesn't love me anymore and I think we will get divorced. What should I do?
Weird to see a bunch of Christian men yelling "divorce her, divorce her!"

Has anyone considered what God says about divorce or do we just let demons inside us dictate how to dissolve a marriage because it's "bad game" to try and work things out with your *Wife?

If she hasn't cheated yet you have no grounds for divorce. You need to find out if she's committed adultery first and foremost.

These calls for divorce are probably demonic in nature, don't listen to them. God only allows divorce in very few situations. (Adultery and death.) If you can, work things out with your wife. If she leaves you for another man then at least you're not at fault.

God hates divorce and it should be avoided at all costs. That sin will carry on to your next marriage and to your new wife.

Good luck man, if you ever need to talk PM me.
11-19-2019 05:12 PM
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Dr. Howard Away
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Post: #56
RE: My wife doesn't love me anymore and I think we will get divorced. What should I do?
(11-19-2019 02:50 PM)RoastBeefCurtains4Me Wrote:  I haven't seen anybody here say this. You need to consider that she is the one who committed a deal breaker against you....

She is a shitty, worthless wife. Reject her. Remove her from your life. Punish her with your absence. Take from her the good life she could have looked forward to with you. Do not accept or even respond to her requests to take her back, which she will do when you follow this advice. She had her chance, and she blew it.

Do not put up with this. Dump her, break your lease and pay the early termination fee if necessary. Throw her out on her own, with whatever half of the savings she will get. Legally divorce her, then leave the country.

She deserves it.

I agree with the course of action, get the job done but don't get wrapped up in hate or revenge. That course just eats you up, distracts you from going forward and appreciating the opportunity ahead.

Treat it like a job, concern yourself with getting concrete steps done like above..break lease, get legal paperwork done, get out. If its not giving you progress, don't get involved. For example, if you let yourself rage out into some tirade where you call her out like the slut like she is...she will just want to fight back and make the divorce more painful, or involve this new guy etc. Be cool in the transactions, direct your rage or sadness elsewhere. If the thinks she's getting what she wants she'll likely check the list of quickly as well.

My buddy just went through a fast divorce in which his ex wife hit him with a frivolous restraining order, saying that he had anger problems. He said he wasn't going to give them the pleasure of labeling him as that kind of person and putting him in jail over it. He went in there with his lawyer and got it done. She tried to antagonize him via his family, leaving notes at his house and generally being crazy. He did such a good job staying cool with it that part way through the process SHE petitioned the court to have the restraining order modified so he could communicate with her. He said no, keep it in place, its the only way I'll get this thing finished. Sure enough it worked.

Also, here is a speed pro tip you may need. Under Canadian law (and maybe Ontario as well?) a divorce requires a one year legal separation, UNLESS either party alleges cruelty or adultery. I used the adultery clause to accelerate my own divorce to just a few months. You may simply be able to just allege that she has started a relationship with this guy at work.

Why do the heathen rage and the people imagine a vain thing? Psalm 2:1 KJV
11-19-2019 05:14 PM
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Rotten Offline
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Post: #57
RE: My wife doesn't love me anymore and I think we will get divorced. What should I do?
Of course you need to divorce her. It's probably too late for Dread game, where you pretend not to be interested, don't make moves, turn down the first few moves that she makes, and flirt innocently with other women around your wife. This woman has already betrayed you.

The rule for divorces is generally that the first filer gets the best outcome. So, no matter what she does or says, file first.

Start to keep a journal of all of the misdeeds that she may have committed. The record will come in handy. In fact, gather all of your records.

Look at your money. The guidelines are that she gets half of the income in the marriage, but this question of what is her half of the income gets really tricky if she was a big spender during the marriage. The guys who get really burned during divorces are the guys who married somebody who spent a lot of money during the marriage. She'll want to keep all of her worthless crap and spent vacations and then ask for her half of the remainder (and if nothing's left, she'll want you to take on half of her debt). Your records of what she spent the money on could help you if this is the case. However, a judge's ruling would be based on what an anti-male feminist or "conservative" (same thing) thinks is fair, not on a technically correct allocation on resources.

Basically get as many records of everything as you can.

Then file first. If you want to be dishonest, you can pretend to "try to make it work" and pretend to be supportive beta bux while she seeks out new cock but pretends not to. This would give you enough time to get your records in order and file first. If she files first, you lose. If you file first, you've got a chance at a fair hearing.

There are no kids, and she's got a boyfriend already so that could save you from alimony.
11-19-2019 05:32 PM
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Post: #58
RE: My wife doesn't love me anymore and I think we will get divorced. What should I do?
(11-19-2019 05:32 PM)Rotten Wrote:  Of course you need to divorce her. It's probably too late for Dread game, where you pretend not to be interested, don't make moves, turn down the first few moves that she makes, and flirt innocently with other women around your wife. This woman has already betrayed you.

The rule for divorces is generally that the first filer gets the best outcome. So, no matter what she does or says, file first.

Start to keep a journal of all of the misdeeds that she may have committed. The record will come in handy. In fact, gather all of your records.

Look at your money. The guidelines are that she gets half of the income in the marriage, but this question of what is her half of the income gets really tricky if she was a big spender during the marriage. The guys who get really burned during divorces are the guys who married somebody who spent a lot of money during the marriage. She'll want to keep all of her worthless crap and spent vacations and then ask for her half of the remainder (and if nothing's left, she'll want you to take on half of her debt). Your records of what she spent the money on could help you if this is the case. However, a judge's ruling would be based on what an anti-male feminist or "conservative" (same thing) thinks is fair, not on a technically correct allocation on resources.

Basically get as many records of everything as you can.

Then file first. If you want to be dishonest, you can pretend to "try to make it work" and pretend to be supportive beta bux while she seeks out new cock but pretends not to. This would give you enough time to get your records in order and file first. If she files first, you lose. If you file first, you've got a chance at a fair hearing.

There are no kids, and she's got a boyfriend already so that could save you from alimony.

Reality check. This is a divorce in Canada, where no one cares who is at fault. OP is young, married for a short period of time and lives in an apartment and the wife also works outside the home.

This is not some old american hag that wants the pension, the lake house and full custody of the kids.

There are likely no material resources to argue over. OP would be wasting money on high priced attorneys and his own time to take a mid life crisis divorce protection approach.

Why do the heathen rage and the people imagine a vain thing? Psalm 2:1 KJV
11-19-2019 05:39 PM
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SnowHugger Offline
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Post: #59
RE: My wife doesn't love me anymore and I think we will get divorced. What should I do?
We're filing a joint divorce. Not sure what difference it would make to file separately.
11-19-2019 06:39 PM
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WombRaider Offline
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Post: #60
RE: My wife doesn't love me anymore and I think we will get divorced. What should I do?
(11-19-2019 05:12 PM)PainPositive Wrote:  Weird to see a bunch of Christian men yelling "divorce her, divorce her!"

Has anyone considered what God says about divorce or do we just let demons inside us dictate how to dissolve a marriage because it's "bad game" to try and work things out with your *Wife?

If she hasn't cheated yet you have no grounds for divorce. You need to find out if she's committed adultery first and foremost.

These calls for divorce are probably demonic in nature, don't listen to them. God only allows divorce in very few situations. (Adultery and death.) If you can, work things out with your wife. If she leaves you for another man then at least you're not at fault.

God hates divorce and it should be avoided at all costs. That sin will carry on to your next marriage and to your new wife.

Good luck man, if you ever need to talk PM me.

If you know anything about marriage and women then you'll know that she has committed adultery. As another poster noted, by the time even the slightest hint of feelings toward another dude comes out of her mouth, the deed has long been done.
11-19-2019 06:46 PM
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PainPositive Offline
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Post: #61
RE: My wife doesn't love me anymore and I think we will get divorced. What should I do?
^You know exactly zero about marriage or women. Never take marriage/women/relationship advice who calls himself womb raider.

Take it from me OP, womb raiders don't have your best interests at heart. They want you to be right there next to them "raiding wombs" and anything less than that is "beta, cucked, or bad game".

Don't take advice from pussy hounds about your marriage. If you follow that type of advice you'll be sad, alone, and asking women where to find the petshop at 55. Ever see a dude in his 60's doing daygame? It's sad.

You'd think after seeing all the young men who've been ruined from taking that advice people here would be a little less keen on giving it.

If your wife admits cheating you're free and clear to divorce her but otherwise you should think carefully about what to do. A divorce can have lasting effects on all your future relationships. Make sure you know what you're doing before you just divorce her over something other than adultery.
11-19-2019 07:26 PM
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Donfitz007 Offline
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Post: #62
RE: My wife doesn't love me anymore and I think we will get divorced. What should I do?
From my experience he’s right, once a woman shows YOU that she likes another guy it’s usually a way of saying “hey I fucked this guy and I liked it, u better act right or I’ll do it more often or leave”. So you need to find out right now if she cheated.
11-19-2019 07:34 PM
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SnowHugger Offline
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Post: #63
RE: My wife doesn't love me anymore and I think we will get divorced. What should I do?
She's made it clear she doesn't want to be together. I'm not sure what else I can do.
11-19-2019 07:39 PM
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MaceTyrell Offline
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Post: #64
RE: My wife doesn't love me anymore and I think we will get divorced. What should I do?
Time to bounce.
11-19-2019 07:42 PM
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Post: #65
RE: My wife doesn't love me anymore and I think we will get divorced. What should I do?
(11-19-2019 07:26 PM)PainPositive Wrote:  ^You know exactly zero about marriage or women. Never take marriage/women/relationship advice who calls himself womb raider.

Take it from me OP, womb raiders don't have your best interests at heart. They want you to be right there next to them "raiding wombs" and anything less than that is "beta, cucked, or bad game".

Don't take advice from pussy hounds about your marriage. If you follow that type of advice you'll be sad, alone, and asking women where to find the petshop at 55. Ever see a dude in his 60's doing daygame? It's sad.

You'd think after seeing all the young men who've been ruined from taking that advice people here would be a little less keen on giving it.

If your wife admits cheating you're free and clear to divorce her but otherwise you should think carefully about what to do. A divorce can have lasting effects on all your future relationships. Make sure you know what you're doing before you just divorce her over something other than adultery.

Unfortunately, my name is more aspirational than factual. And I know exactly what I'm talking about in this case. Having learned the hard way.

Also, the wife is never, ever going to admit to cheating. If he wants to be sure, he'll need to do some snooping. Probably a lost cause in this case, since from what he's saying, she doesn't view continuing the marriage as an option.
(This post was last modified: 11-19-2019 07:49 PM by WombRaider.)
11-19-2019 07:47 PM
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Post: #66
RE: My wife doesn't love me anymore and I think we will get divorced. What should I do?
(11-19-2019 07:47 PM)WombRaider Wrote:  
(11-19-2019 07:26 PM)PainPositive Wrote:  ^You know exactly zero about marriage or women. Never take marriage/women/relationship advice who calls himself womb raider.

Take it from me OP, womb raiders don't have your best interests at heart. They want you to be right there next to them "raiding wombs" and anything less than that is "beta, cucked, or bad game".

Don't take advice from pussy hounds about your marriage. If you follow that type of advice you'll be sad, alone, and asking women where to find the petshop at 55. Ever see a dude in his 60's doing daygame? It's sad.

You'd think after seeing all the young men who've been ruined from taking that advice people here would be a little less keen on giving it.

If your wife admits cheating you're free and clear to divorce her but otherwise you should think carefully about what to do. A divorce can have lasting effects on all your future relationships. Make sure you know what you're doing before you just divorce her over something other than adultery.

Unfortunately, my name is more aspirational than factual. And I know exactly what I'm talking about in this case. Having learned the hard way.

Also, the wife is never, ever going to admit to cheating. If he wants to be sure, he'll need to do some snooping. Probably a lost cause in this case, since from what he's saying, she doesn't view continuing the marriage as an option.

The fact that your aspirations are to "raid wombs" shows you know nothing. Why give advice when you're still on the degenerate "bang everything you can" mindset? Don't you know fornication advice or advice from those who aspire to fornicate wombs isn't valuable in the context of marriage and relationships?

OP here are three things you can do:

1. Ask her if she has had sex anyone besides you since you got married.
(she already told you she's attracted to another man so it shouldn't be hard to get it out of her if she did.)

2. If not, ask her if she'd be willing to go to marriage counseling before you divorce. A loss of attraction is fixable since women are slaves to their feelings and flip-flop from one emotion to another constantly. She can gain her attraction back for you as easily as she lost it if it's only because you got lazy.

3. Don't divorce her until you know she has committed adultery. If she hasn't don't agree to the divorce.
11-19-2019 08:07 PM
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Post: #67
RE: My wife doesn't love me anymore and I think we will get divorced. What should I do?
(11-19-2019 05:12 PM)PainPositive Wrote:  Weird to see a bunch of Christian men yelling "divorce her, divorce her!"

Has anyone considered what God says about divorce or do we just let demons inside us dictate how to dissolve a marriage because it's "bad game" to try and work things out with your *Wife?

If she hasn't cheated yet you have no grounds for divorce. You need to find out if she's committed adultery first and foremost.

These calls for divorce are probably demonic in nature, don't listen to them. God only allows divorce in very few situations. (Adultery and death.) If you can, work things out with your wife. If she leaves you for another man then at least you're not at fault.

God hates divorce and it should be avoided at all costs. That sin will carry on to your next marriage and to your new wife.

Good luck man, if you ever need to talk PM me.
Even if OP's marriage was a Christian marriage -- which it isn't -- she already has, according to the Bible, committed adultery. Adultery isn't only physical.
11-19-2019 08:13 PM
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Post: #68
RE: My wife doesn't love me anymore and I think we will get divorced. What should I do?
You'll find out about the cheating either when she admits it, during counselling, or when you refuse to divorce and she leaves you for the co-worker. None of these three things will harm you and you can leave the marriage clean this way without the weight and sin of divorce wounding your spirit and future relationships.
11-19-2019 08:16 PM
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Post: #69
RE: My wife doesn't love me anymore and I think we will get divorced. What should I do?
Let's say I refuse to divorce.
I'm still moving to the US for a better job.

How am I going to know anything?
She'll just file it on her own.
11-19-2019 08:20 PM
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Post: #70
RE: My wife doesn't love me anymore and I think we will get divorced. What should I do?
(11-19-2019 08:16 PM)PainPositive Wrote:  You'll find out about the cheating either when she admits it, during counselling, or when you refuse to divorce and she leaves you for the co-worker. None of these three things will harm you and you can leave the marriage clean this way without the weight and sin of divorce wounding your spirit and future relationships.

I don't mean to downplay your point of view. But OP has stated he isn't religious. I don't think he is concerned with the morality behind it, and maybe it's best not to try and force that upon him.
11-19-2019 08:23 PM
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Dr. Howard Away
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Post: #71
RE: My wife doesn't love me anymore and I think we will get divorced. What should I do?
(11-19-2019 08:20 PM)SnowHugger Wrote:  Let's say I refuse to divorce.
I'm still moving to the US for a better job.

How am I going to know anything?
She'll just file it on her own.

Don't. You will create an adversarial situation as she won't be able to file the paperwork without trying to track you down and serve you first.

She then has to show that was impossible, then the court will just grant her default judgement aka, the worst possible outcome for anything for you.

It will also make it harder for you to gain US permanent residence if you don't have divorce documents in the future.

Why do the heathen rage and the people imagine a vain thing? Psalm 2:1 KJV
11-19-2019 08:28 PM
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Post: #72
RE: My wife doesn't love me anymore and I think we will get divorced. What should I do?
It also looks like we need to be separated for a year before we can file for divorce.

If there's no adultery, I'll be in the US anyway. But still have to come back later to get it done.
11-19-2019 08:30 PM
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Post: #73
RE: My wife doesn't love me anymore and I think we will get divorced. What should I do?
Maybe it's not best to give the same old tired advice we've been hurting young men with for the last decade and encourage them to try and figure out God wants for them instead.

I'm not saying I know God's will for your life OP but I know he hates divorce. Even if you're not a believer, trying to save your marriage (if she hasn't cheated) is a good thing to do if possible. I'm sure you would rather stay with her if she hasn't cheated and was willing to try and work things out with you.

Don't let jaded old men like me stop you from at least doing some due diligence on the cheating thing and seeing if she's willing to work though your problems.

If she cheated move on immediately, if not then it's worth trying to salvage it.
11-19-2019 08:34 PM
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Post: #74
RE: My wife doesn't love me anymore and I think we will get divorced. What should I do?
(11-19-2019 08:07 PM)PainPositive Wrote:  
(11-19-2019 07:47 PM)WombRaider Wrote:  
(11-19-2019 07:26 PM)PainPositive Wrote:  ^You know exactly zero about marriage or women. Never take marriage/women/relationship advice who calls himself womb raider.

Take it from me OP, womb raiders don't have your best interests at heart. They want you to be right there next to them "raiding wombs" and anything less than that is "beta, cucked, or bad game".

Don't take advice from pussy hounds about your marriage. If you follow that type of advice you'll be sad, alone, and asking women where to find the petshop at 55. Ever see a dude in his 60's doing daygame? It's sad.

You'd think after seeing all the young men who've been ruined from taking that advice people here would be a little less keen on giving it.

If your wife admits cheating you're free and clear to divorce her but otherwise you should think carefully about what to do. A divorce can have lasting effects on all your future relationships. Make sure you know what you're doing before you just divorce her over something other than adultery.

Unfortunately, my name is more aspirational than factual. And I know exactly what I'm talking about in this case. Having learned the hard way.

Also, the wife is never, ever going to admit to cheating. If he wants to be sure, he'll need to do some snooping. Probably a lost cause in this case, since from what he's saying, she doesn't view continuing the marriage as an option.

The fact that your aspirations are to "raid wombs" shows you know nothing. Why give advice when you're still on the degenerate "bang everything you can" mindset? Don't you know fornication advice or advice from those who aspire to fornicate wombs isn't valuable in the context of marriage and relationships?

OP here are three things you can do:

1. Ask her if she has had sex anyone besides you since you got married.
(she already told you she's attracted to another man so it shouldn't be hard to get it out of her if she did.)

2. If not, ask her if she'd be willing to go to marriage counseling before you divorce. A loss of attraction is fixable since women are slaves to their feelings and flip-flop from one emotion to another constantly. She can gain her attraction back for you as easily as she lost it if it's only because you got lazy.

3. Don't divorce her until you know she has committed adultery. If she hasn't don't agree to the divorce.

Have you been marathoning on Dr. Phil? This is advice reads like it is from a DIY marital counselling book. It is terrible.

1. Ask her if she has had sex with anyone else - Retarded. Do you not understand the pride and embarrassment that she has to overcome to answer this question truthfully? I was an adulterer, I hated my wife and even when I got caught and still I only admitted to the things that she had 100% proof on and denied anything else happened...which it definitely did. She won't admit this, even if it is true, because it is too shameful.

2. Marriage Counselling - Marriage counselling does not work. It serves to let the woman rationalize why she is divorcing the man, and develop an exit strategy while the man is deceived with a false hope that something will change.

3. Don't divorce her until she admits adultery - She has already admitted it in as much as any woman who has not been presented with pictures, video, text or email evidence will do. Women talk in a sideways manner, which gives them plausible deniability. "I don't love you anymore" means "I have already broken up with you". "I have feelings for a coworker and have spent time alone with that person" means, at minimum, inappropriate text messages or pictures have been sent, we talked shit with each other over drinks and will be working together to find a way to get us both alone to bang soon.

This woman did not express remorse, she did not cry and apologize and ask for the OP's forgiveness, she did not suggest counselling or working on their marriage, OP didn't even catch her, she just coldly offered it up.

If you mentally break her down, to make her admit these things, she will hate you so much that she will want to divorce you even more. When I have dug for details in the past it has pushed more of a wedge between the woman and I, it did not lead to reconciliation, it just made the wounds worse.

I have been on both sides of this coin. Having 100% proof that your spouse or girlfriend cheated on you, just makes you feel stupid for not figuring out sooner and just makes you stress out over what other clues you may have missed. It does not help, and this woman has already offered up STRONG indicators and no remorse.

Painpositive, you are way off the mark with your advice in this situation.

Why do the heathen rage and the people imagine a vain thing? Psalm 2:1 KJV
11-19-2019 08:50 PM
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RE: My wife doesn't love me anymore and I think we will get divorced. What should I do?
(11-19-2019 08:07 PM)PainPositive Wrote:  The fact that your aspirations are to "raid wombs" shows you know nothing. Why give advice when you're still on the degenerate "bang everything you can" mindset? Don't you know fornication advice or advice from those who aspire to fornicate wombs isn't valuable in the context of marriage and relationships?

OP here are three things you can do:

1. Ask her if she has had sex anyone besides you since you got married.
(she already told you she's attracted to another man so it shouldn't be hard to get it out of her if she did.)

2. If not, ask her if she'd be willing to go to marriage counseling before you divorce. A loss of attraction is fixable since women are slaves to their feelings and flip-flop from one emotion to another constantly. She can gain her attraction back for you as easily as she lost it if it's only because you got lazy.

3. Don't divorce her until you know she has committed adultery. If she hasn't don't agree to the divorce.

Have you been married? Dealt with adultery? Been divorced? A few of your statements tell me you have not experienced that trifecta.

Infidelity is a very specific thing with very specific patterns. Those who've been victim to it know what I'm talking about. Here's what I can say:

-The facts here strongly suggest that she has had sexual intercourse with somebody else.
-Cheaters almost invariably forgo condoms, so there is some risk to staying with her another day (if he plans to have sex with his wife).
-Cheaters do not admit to cheating.
-If you have incontrovertible evidence of cheating, they will admit only to what you can prove. If you can prove she kissed the guy once, then that's all she ever did -- kissed the guy once. If you find a steamy text message, then that one message was the only one ever sent. And so on.
-Loss of attraction, on the part of a woman, is generally permanent -- not at all like you say.
-If I were going to do anything here short of divorce, it would be to set up some surveillance to prove whether she's cheating -- voice-activated recorder, GPS, etc. But in this particular case, I would say the ship has sailed regardless.
11-19-2019 08:55 PM
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