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NoFap Under Attack By Harpy
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redbeard Online
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Post: #51
RE: NoFap Under Attack By Harpy
(11-23-2019 07:55 PM)infowarrior1 Wrote:  @MichaelWitcoff

Augustine's argument seems to discount the value of training young men to have self-control as the nofap movement seems successful in demonstrating.


Plus it appears his view of sexuality has been soiled by manichean influence as well as his previous sexual immorality. Thereby resulting in this strange madonna/whore complex.

Placing sexual passion outside wedlock rather than within wedlock where it belongs

Thankfully, the Catholic catechism is clear on this:

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_P85.HTM

Quote:2355 Prostitution does injury to the dignity of the person who engages in it, reducing the person to an instrument of sexual pleasure. the one who pays sins gravely against himself: he violates the chastity to which his Baptism pledged him and defiles his body, the temple of the Holy Spirit.139 Prostitution is a social scourge. It usually involves women, but also men, children, and adolescents (The latter two cases involve the added sin of scandal.). While it is always gravely sinful to engage in prostitution, the imputability of the offense can be attenuated by destitution, blackmail, or social pressure.

"Every saint has a past, every sinner a future."
11-24-2019 07:48 AM
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Harem Scarem Offline
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Post: #52
RE: NoFap Under Attack By Harpy
(11-23-2019 05:44 PM)porscheguy Wrote:  I can see both sides of the no fap threads argument. Is it kind of gay? Yes. Does it help some guys? Yes.

What I find most telling and perhaps a bit troubling is MSM/liberal backlash against no fap.

Why are they so afraid? Why do they perceive the movement as such a threat? Some have pointed out that the porn industry attacks on no fap are akin to Budweiser attacking AA.

FWIW, I’m not really a fan of porn censorship. I do think more should be done to shield children from it. I think the answer to porn is to discourage its use, not outright prohibition which never works.

But this all still begs the question. Why is big media so fearful? I can understand the porn industry backlash. But the MSM? At the end of the day, it ultimately boils down to money, or the loss of it. Could no fap be bigger than we realize?

It's amazing that within a century we went from "Fapping is bad, mmkay?" to "It's nobody's business if you fap" to "Citizen, have you performed your daily fapping quota today?" These things don't happen without an agenda.

I doubt banning porn would solve the issue (good luck enforcing a ban in the internet era), but the availability of all forms of porn for free is unprecedented in history. When we were kids, "porn" was just nudie magazines, and then there were adult cinemas in the seedier underbelly of society that most people never participate in. It was something done by creepy old men. You could watch a blue movie in roughly the same part of town you'd go and have sex with a prostitute. It was basically on the same level (only less satisfying, I can imagine).

I never even saw an actual porno until I was already 18 and I wanted to check out this YouPorn thing everyone was talking about. So before that I already had several years of puberty and being able to get off without having to see sex on the screen. Now it's over a decade later and everyone is far more connected, teenage children get started on this stuff far earlier. I don't even want to think about what kind of shell of a man I would have become if I had all the porn in the world available to me at the age of 14 or younger. I've often wondered how free porn streaming sites can be profitable. But in a way, it would be far more sinister if the MindGeek empire were not profitable, but continued to operate regardless because they served some higher purpose.

To me the demonisation of NoFap is far more about porn and the porn industry than just fapping itself, although avoiding masturbation altogether can also be good. Their audience has evolved from the tiny minority of people who actually went out of their way to buy porn videos, to basically everyone in the world. We now have a society where young men find it more and more difficult to get sex, in the midst of a thoroughly sexualised culture where sex is completely on the pedestal. Their whole business model depends on the frustration and despair of involuntarily celibate young men. They need us to pedestalise porn whores.

When I was reading up on the whole GirlsDoPorn fiasco, I realised there are whole websites dedicated to gossip about the personal and professional lives of porn whores, similar to celebrity news in the tabloids. Just like that "ultimate coomer" video that was posted, the guy with 10k reviews of porn movies to his name who goes to porn conventions to be a fanboy to porn whores he's not having sex with. This is just the most extreme example of a kind of pedestalisation that you see everywhere.

(11-23-2019 03:09 PM)MichaelWitcoff Wrote:  @Samseau, both St. Augustine and Thomas Aquinas thought prostitution should be legal. Their logic was essentially that while the act is a sin, its easy and legal availability would still be an overall net positive considering that a world full of men with pent-up sexual anxiety, with no available release, would cause worse effects on society. Basically they thought it should be legal to avoid the kind of "incel uprising" that you often hear "joked" about on the internet, and occasionally acted on by people like Elliot Rodgers. St. Augustine said without it, "the world would be convulsed with lust" - and Aquinas said that the government's job is to maintain peace and order, not to regulate morality. It's actually not a bad argument, since faithful Christians wouldn't be doing it anyway and those who do want to do such things find a way to regardless of legality. The problem with his argument though is that you could use the same logic to justify legal abortion, which I don't think he addressed since that wasn't as widespread in his time as it is in ours (but I could be wrong).

I'm not sure about it in policy terms (again, if banned, women would still find a way to sell their bodies), but in practical terms, it's very obvious what's happening in society today. Without a pressure valve, some people are going to explode. More Elliot Rodgers are going to happen as long as young men continue to get bombarded with sex while their actual access to it keeps getting reduced. The best thing would be a traditional society where a normal guy can get married young and have a fruitful marriage. Absent that, you'd need a variety of pressure valves. Let's take a look at some of those:

- Game: highly effective, but increasingly marginalised or outright criminalised, while women become ever more entitled due to mass pedestalisation.
- Marrying a woman from a more traditional society: feasible, but stigmatised ("All Eastern European girls are whores, go worship a Western girl with a 100+ notch count instead!").
- Prostitution: stigmatised even in places that have it in spades. Besides, a man who uses this as his main method to get his kicks will have his self-esteem impacted by the fact that he can only get it if he pays for it. Still, to me it's a lesser evil if a guy does this once as emergency treatment if the alternative is him shooting up a school and then himself.
- Porn and compulsive masturbation: covered already. Basically it compounds the individual's problem while increasing the amount of pedestalisation and female entitlement in society, so that it becomes ever harder for new generations of young guys.
- Find religion and beat the urges so that you neither fornicate nor masturbate, and you don't miss either of them: obviously great for the guys who can do this. However, I doubt this will ever be taken up massively barring massive cultural changes so that people get married at a younger age. Realistically, most young men will not be able to remain both unmarried, sexless, and free of masturbation until the age of 30-35.
(This post was last modified: 11-24-2019 10:28 AM by Harem Scarem.)
11-24-2019 10:26 AM
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Simeon_Strangelight Offline
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Post: #53
RE: NoFap Under Attack By Harpy
The psychos have attacked working out in the past, so nofap would be suspect to them too.

Guess government-mandated internet-porn in Israel is fine. For the goys porn is very welcome.
11-25-2019 07:11 AM
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d'Aversa Offline
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Post: #54
RE: NoFap Under Attack By Harpy
Honestly, there's not much we can do without being attacked now.

[Image: rYnBiSA.png]
(This post was last modified: 11-25-2019 07:27 AM by d'Aversa.)
11-25-2019 07:27 AM
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Athanasius Offline
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Post: #55
RE: NoFap Under Attack By Harpy
(11-25-2019 07:27 AM)dAversa Wrote:  Honestly, there's not much we can do without being attacked now.

[Image: rYnBiSA.png]

If this is for real it's a definite candidate for the Clown World thread.
11-27-2019 12:09 AM
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Post: #56
RE: NoFap Under Attack By Harpy
(11-23-2019 06:10 AM)MichaelWitcoff Wrote:  
(11-23-2019 05:42 AM)Vladimir Poontang Wrote:  
(11-22-2019 04:12 PM)Samseau Wrote:  "He who lusts with his eyes has committed adultery in his heart." - Jesus Christ

Likewise, "He who lusts after porn whores has committed whoring in his heart."

I don't think He meant that you can't feel something when you look at a woman. That would be impossible to avoid. I'm sure He must have meant don't plan to act on it. I think it's fine to look at a woman and be turned on, and I think it's fine to go out of your way to look at a woman to admire her. Life is hard enough as it is without having to constantly fight against the strongest urge.

Well, that verse "he who looks at a woman with lust" uses an ambiguous word for "woman" that also means "wife." So I think it's likely He was reiterating the commandment against adultery, saying that it's still adultery if you're sinning with another man's wife in your mind, rather than saying that feeling sexual desire towards an unmarried woman is wrong somehow. After all, there would be no reason to pursue or marry her if you didn't feel anything and the Biblical "Song of Solomon" is not exactly G-rated.

I've heard this argument before. Reminds me that I need to get back to learning Koine Greek someday because reading the New Testament in the original language is something I'd like to do before I die.

The "wife" interpretation makes sense and I hope it's true because I find it utterly impossible not to notice beautiful woman and at best extremely difficult to never indulge in a bit of imaging what might happen if I were still single. I'm not saying it's right or I'm right, but it seems acceptable for a normal, healthy, heterosexual man to do this, and I imagine that the real sin would come in making any plans to act on my desire for other women. Also, it seems obvious to me that committing adultery in your heart can't be as bad as actually doing it real life.

Who knows though. I'm seeing all of this through a glass, darkly.

Feminism in ten words: "Stop objectifying women! Can't you see I've hit the wall?" -Leonard D Neubache
11-28-2019 09:55 AM
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