Post: #51

(11-30-2019 09:33 PM)WombRaider Wrote:  

(11-27-2019 11:45 PM)PixelFree Wrote:  Counter to this would be if I were to start a family with them soon their ability/motivation to do this drops a lot.

I wish guys at RVF, and everywhere else, would understand how untrue this statement is. Married women who have kids cheat all the frigging time. They break up their families all the frigging time. They introduce their kids to a series of boyfriends/stepfathers all the frigging time.

They aren't necessarily less inclined than anyone else to cheat/monkeybranch. They're perhaps more inclined.

Women get bored easily. Their beta provider (father of their kids) gets busy with work, he gets pudgy, he tries to make his wife happy, he believes her when she says he should do more housework. He becomes BORING. A lot of this is inevitable no matter how much game you think you have. The guy building a swingset is inherently less exciting than Chad on a Harley.

this is an extremely black pill to swallow. while it definitely feels true judging what happens around us, it would definitely mean that there is no point to ever settle down with any women in this life on this planet - because family life would inevitably make the man boring to the wife's eyes (reasonable) triggering all consequences you listed.

is there truly no win situation here than just being forever a lonely bachelor?

Post: #52

This is why I caution young men strongly to marry by 25. Because they can still reasonably get a girl who's fresh. By comparison a guy that's 40 who's looking for a decent girl in her mid 20s gets to try and find one in the five second period between her last relationship and her next one. As OP eludes to, anyone who thinks that attractive, celibate women at the height of their fertility simply sit around single for months and months have been watching too many romance movies. You get girls like that on the first bounce or not at all.

Unfortunately a lot of guys sympathise with the losers here who refuse to shit or get off the pot. The reality is that these two women were single at the three year mark when their infertile boyfriends failed to put a bun in the oven because staying in Never Never Land was more appealing.

And the MGTOW incel "man up" garbage can be disposed of, thank you.

As I've said elsewhere on the forum. Most marriages aren't ending in divorce so if you can't do better than the average chump marrying the average chumpette when you have this entire forum at your disposal then the problem isn't the world, it's you.

And anyone who "steals" a woman who wants kids from a man who doesn't wins my hearty applause. One of those people is acting under logos and the other is acting under globohomo. Stealing women from tribe globohomo is an act of valor which in ancient times would earn you a seat at the chieftains table.

I highly doubt God is shedding a tear for the two man-children about to be denied a 47th chance to get their act together, and in his eyes taking for honourable purposes a woman that is not married or at least engaged is not an act of theft or adultery because ownership has not yet been established under God.

Post: #53

(12-02-2019 04:34 PM)Augustus_Principe Wrote:  I'll add my two cents and say that if I were in your position, I would look for a single, under 23 y.o woman first before looking to commit to a desperate mid 20s woman trying to find a guilt-free feel-good way out of her current, sterile relationship. If your value is as good as you, and apparently these women are making it out to be, why not put that value to good use and try and find a younger woman with the least baggage possible?

This is certainly an interesting point, and something I've had a good think about.

It's also interesting to hear from someone from Hungary on this.

Here in Australia, I'm already pushing the limits with a 41 yo being with a 26 yo. Sure, I have had odd flashes of interest / potential from even younger women (22-23), but that's really starting to stretch it.

I'm fortunate that I pass for early 30's, and I'd say I'm an 8/10 for my age (possibly push a 9 if I lost a bit of weight). Most guys I know are blown away that I'm able to have something here with the 25/26 yo's and a 16 year age gap (and tell me I'm batting above my average). Under 23 is really another level. There are huge societal pressures to deal with here, the girl, her friends, her parents, society. I'm not saying it's impossible but that's seriously next level difficult.

FWIW, I've been on dates with 26 years olds in Ukraine and was instantly rejected once I told them my age. It might be easier in EE but certainly not a walk in the park.

BTW these women aren't desperate (I don't know why anyone would say this?). The are doing OK with their current BFs, they're just bored and (for all we know) these guys are 5+ years off marriage and kids. I think also at this age they start to look at a guy for more than just how fun he is and his looks, things like drive, family values and other long term considerations enter their thought process.

People on this thread seem to love to give 35+ year old women a hard time and shun them for being 'too picky' in their younger years, but in my personal experience, most women in this category are the result of these sterile relationships. Of course, there are also the 'too picky' bunch. It's a combination of things usually.

For example, I just met a 37 year old women who was in a relationship with a guy for 11 years (ELEVEN YEARS! - from ages 24 through to 35). The guy then left, met and impregnated a new women within 6 months. Obviously the guy was only hanging around in this stale relationship for lack of anything better to do, and now this woman is kinda stuffed.

Sure, we can blame the women here that she should have left earlier, but I think it's foolish to say this was all her fault. I'd place more blame on the guy in this situation.

Post: #54

(12-02-2019 11:55 PM)randomA Wrote:  

(11-30-2019 09:33 PM)WombRaider Wrote:  

(11-27-2019 11:45 PM)PixelFree Wrote:  Counter to this would be if I were to start a family with them soon their ability/motivation to do this drops a lot.

I wish guys at RVF, and everywhere else, would understand how untrue this statement is. Married women who have kids cheat all the frigging time. They break up their families all the frigging time. They introduce their kids to a series of boyfriends/stepfathers all the frigging time.

They aren't necessarily less inclined than anyone else to cheat/monkeybranch. They're perhaps more inclined.

Women get bored easily. Their beta provider (father of their kids) gets busy with work, he gets pudgy, he tries to make his wife happy, he believes her when she says he should do more housework. He becomes BORING. A lot of this is inevitable no matter how much game you think you have. The guy building a swingset is inherently less exciting than Chad on a Harley.

this is an extremely black pill to swallow. while it definitely feels true judging what happens around us, it would definitely mean that there is no point to ever settle down with any women in this life on this planet - because family life would inevitably make the man boring to the wife's eyes (reasonable) triggering all consequences you listed.

is there truly no win situation here than just being forever a lonely bachelor?

Of course theres a way to win - the first and most important step is to try. Thats still a step too far for the MGTOW, who refuses to play unless hes guaranteed to win. The only thing this philosophy guarantees is that their life will be empty, pointless and ultimately, a waste.

MGTOW reminds me of the critic from the man in the arena:

Quote:"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat."

Post: #55

(12-03-2019 12:57 AM)PixelFree Wrote:  

(12-02-2019 04:34 PM)Augustus_Principe Wrote:  I'll add my two cents and say that if I were in your position, I would look for a single, under 23 y.o woman first before looking to commit to a desperate mid 20s woman trying to find a guilt-free feel-good way out of her current, sterile relationship. If your value is as good as you, and apparently these women are making it out to be, why not put that value to good use and try and find a younger woman with the least baggage possible?

This is certainly an interesting point, and something I've had a good think about.

It's also interesting to hear from someone from Hungary on this.

Here in Australia, I'm already pushing the limits with a 41 yo being with a 26 yo. Sure, I have had odd flashes of interest / potential from even younger women (22-23), but that's really starting to stretch it.

I'm fortunate that I pass for early 30's, and I'd say I'm an 8/10 for my age (possibly push a 9 if I lost a bit of weight). Most guys I know are blown away that I'm able to have something here with the 25/26 yo's and a 16 year age gap (and tell me I'm batting above my average). Under 23 is really another level. There are huge societal pressures to deal with here, the girl, her friends, her parents, society. I'm not saying it's impossible but that's seriously next level difficult.

FWIW, I've been on dates with 26 years olds in Ukraine and was instantly rejected once I told them my age. It might be easier in EE but certainly not a walk in the park.

BTW these women aren't desperate (I don't know why anyone would say this?). The are doing OK with their current BFs, they're just bored and (for all we know) these guys are 5+ years off marriage and kids. I think also at this age they start to look at a guy for more than just how fun he is and his looks, things like drive, family values and other long term considerations enter their thought process.

People on this thread seem to love to give 35+ year old women a hard time and shun them for being 'too picky' in their younger years, but in my personal experience, most women in this category are the result of these sterile relationships. Of course, there are also the 'too picky' bunch. It's a combination of things usually.

For example, I just met a 37 year old women who was in a relationship with a guy for 11 years (ELEVEN YEARS! - from ages 24 through to 35). The guy then left, met and impregnated a new women within 6 months. Obviously the guy was only hanging around in this stale relationship for lack of anything better to do, and now this woman is kinda stuffed.

Sure, we can blame the women here that she should have left earlier, but I think it's foolish to say this was all her fault. I'd place more blame on the guy in this situation.

Perhaps desperate wasn't the best word to use. I should have said "Eager". I hear you though and understand what you're saying. You're from Australia and going by what i've heard about the place, I would agree that you are indeed in a good position with the women compared to other men there. All of the West is "sick" so what have to deal with the card's we're dealt with.

I'm in my early 30's. Thankfully I took care of myself during my youth(and still do) and can still pass for early-mid 20s. But I do understand how some girls, especially those in college, can seem turned off by the big age gap once they find out. This has sometimes been the case for me in the past, but other times, it wasnt an issue at all. it all depends on the girl at the end of the day.

Leonard has made good points on stealing a woman from a loser male. At the end of the day, it's up to you as we do not know all the details of your environment/life. If this is the best way to get an attractive, mid- 20s girl ready to settle down, go for it. You have info here no matter the choice. But either way, I think you'll be fine. As long as the girl is fertile, that's all that matters.

Post: #56

(12-02-2019 11:55 PM)randomA Wrote:  this is an extremely black pill to swallow. while it definitely feels true judging what happens around us, it would definitely mean that there is no point to ever settle down with any women in this life on this planet - because family life would inevitably make the man boring to the wife's eyes (reasonable) triggering all consequences you listed.

is there truly no win situation here than just being forever a lonely bachelor?

There aren't any guarantees. All you can do is mitigate the risks in as many areas as possible, and then give it a try if you think it's worthwhile. All of the factors are covered in depth here at RVF.

Screening. You want somebody not prone to worldy excess. Don't wife up a club lizard, or someone that spent a lot of time with the football team in high school. Her background and her attitudes are crucial.

Your SMV. It should be 2 to 3 points higher than hers. This mitigates her hypergamy. It bakes some dread game into the marriage. The net result is that people wonder why you're with a rather plain-looking woman.

Your actions. Don't supplicate to her. Don't fall for the old power grabs such as her nitpicking the way you load the dishwasher. Some say you need to "game your wife" and I don't like that concept much. But at least you need to not be a pushover.

Leverage. Women respond to leverage, not logic, fairness, justice, etc. (Despite red pill claims, I think men are the same way. But we're talking about women here.) The SMV difference mentioned above is part of this. If she depends on you economically, that's also good, but see below.

Environment/structural factors. If she depends on you economically, and you live in the west, then she actually has the leverage because of the laws and application thereof. But if you marry, say, a village girl in the the Philippines, and you live in her town, then it'll be very hard for her to replicate what you bring to the table and thus you have the leverage. But be aware that you give up leverage in some other areas, such as local language and culture, extended family support, property rights.

To gain in one area, you may lose in another. We have 40-year-old guys looking for 22-year-old wives, and that's good because such women may have low mileage and may not be economically established. However, you're also giving up enormous leverage in when you have that kind of age difference, as she has many, many options with hotter, younger, more exciting guys. (I, personally, would not even attempt this in my home country unless the woman was quite homely.) With a woman closer to your own age, you have more SMV leverage, but she might be high-mileage.

To me, the most important concept is to find someone who truly admires you and would have a hard time replacing you. For best results, that likely means leaving the thirsty west and setting up in a smaller third-world community. Alternatives might include living in a small Midwestern U.S. town with a woman who is overweight.

Drastic, but we live in strange times.

Post: #57

^This mindset invokes thoughts of razor blades and a warm bath.

PSA...Defeatism is a disease

There are winners and losers in life and by and large which one you are is overwhelmingly a choice.

First choice* to make is whether to live a life driven by desire (want to happen) or to let fear (dont want to happen).

One path is easier than the other.

Thats why there are and have always been far more losers in the world than winners


*Pro tip: No choice is a choice

Post: #58

(12-03-2019 02:17 PM)PapayaTapper Wrote:  ^This mindset invokes thoughts of razor blades and a warm bath.

Just learn to like third-world villages and/or fat girls, dude. Can't be that bad.

Post: #59

(12-03-2019 02:57 PM)WombRaider Wrote:  

(12-03-2019 02:17 PM)PapayaTapper Wrote:  ^This mindset invokes thoughts of razor blades and a warm bath.

Just learn to like third-world villages and/or fat girls, dude.Can't be that bad.

Fortunately I'll never have to know. I made my choice(s) long ago

Post: #60

(12-03-2019 12:57 AM)PixelFree Wrote:  For example, I just met a 37 year old women who was in a relationship with a guy for 11 years (ELEVEN YEARS! - from ages 24 through to 35). The guy then left, met and impregnated a new women within 6 months. Obviously the guy was only hanging around in this stale relationship for lack of anything better to do, and now this woman is kinda stuffed.

Sure, we can blame the women here that she should have left earlier, but I think it's foolish to say this was all her fault. I'd place more blame on the guy in this situation.

You're far more charitable than me. I blame her all day. She chose to be with a guy she couldn't get to commit. There were a ton of alternatives when she was younger but she thought she was above them. If you press her, she can probably name several men she wishes she had a second chance with.

Now she brings nothing to a marriage but a barren womb, thems the breaks, kid.

Post: #61

(12-03-2019 04:23 PM)Captainstabbin Wrote:  You're far more charitable than me. I blame her all day. She chose to be with a guy she couldn't get to commit. There were a ton of alternatives when she was younger but she thought she was above them. If you press her, she can probably name several men she wishes she had a second chance with.

I don't see how you can make that conclusion. We don't know.

Don't forget it was an 11 year period, from ages 24 to 35 for her. She was with a guy who she thought she was a good match for, and this was probably the case during the first ~5 years. Then, in the later years, after his value stayed the same / increased and hers dropped, he upgraded.

Both men and women have fallen for the lie that we can perpetually date and things will be OK.

She was tricked just as much as many of us have been.
She thought she was in a committed relationship.
She thought there was no rush to have kids.
Even if she did want them, she thought she'd scare the guy away if she raised the issue.
She thought they were a good match.
She thought he would eventually propose.
This is what the culture told her.

In my view, the guy 'used' her for sex and companionship during her best years because he was too weak/lazy to break it off earlier then discarded her once he could monkey-branch himself. On the other the hand, she should have set a time limit and done what's best for her with regards to her biological clock. This is why I think both are to blame.

How much wisdom and leadership can we expect from a 20-something?

I believe it's better for us to practice compassion here rather than the schadenfreude-type scorn that I've seen on other threads on the board.

Post: #62

(12-03-2019 06:38 PM)PixelFree Wrote:  I don't see how you can make that conclusion. We don't know.

Don't forget it was an 11 year period, from ages 24 to 35 for her. She was with a guy who she thought she was a good match for, and this was probably the case during the first ~5 years. Then, in the later years, after his value stayed the same / increased and hers dropped, he upgraded.

Both men and women have fallen for the lie that we can perpetually date and things will be OK.

That's probably the fundamental difference. After 11 years, she's not being lied to, she's being willfully ignorant.

Post: #63

(12-03-2019 06:38 PM)PixelFree Wrote:  I don't see how you can make that conclusion. We don't know.

But how do you know enough to automatically place more blame on the man then? It's like somehow we're just supposed to always have compassion for these women while putting the blame on the men?

I'm not buying it and I don't think anyone would like a society where women are always given a free pass to start looking for other men if they feel the relationship is not going in the direction or in the pace they hoped for.
What you do then is that you set a time limit, like you said, and then move on first. After that, you're free to see the market. It's simple.

Post: #64

(12-03-2019 11:49 PM)No More Mr. Soy Boy Wrote:  

(12-03-2019 06:38 PM)PixelFree Wrote:  I don't see how you can make that conclusion. We don't know.

But how do you know enough to automatically place more blame on the man then?It's like somehow we're just supposed to always have compassion for these women while putting the blame on the men?

I'm not buying it and I don't think anyone would like a society where women are always given a free pass to start looking for other men if they feel the relationship is not going in the direction or in the pace they hoped for.
What you do then is that you set a time limit, like you said, and then move on first. After that, you're free to see the market. It's simple.

Simple - because we are men. We are supposed to hold ourselves to a higher standard than women and children.

Post: #65

(12-03-2019 11:49 PM)No More Mr. Soy Boy Wrote:  

(12-03-2019 06:38 PM)PixelFree Wrote:  I don't see how you can make that conclusion. We don't know.

But how do you know enough to automatically place more blame on the man then? It's like somehow we're just supposed to always have compassion for these women while putting the blame on the men?

I'm not buying it and I don't think anyone would like a society where women are always given a free pass to start looking for other men if they feel the relationship is not going in the direction or in the pace they hoped for.
What you do then is that you set a time limit, like you said, and then move on first. After that, you're free to see the market. It's simple.

The real thing behind this is communication and boundaries, going both ways. It's something I'm going to focus on with any relationship in the future. If I can feel safe giving and receiving trust with someone it cuts a lot of the games out. However, it's not exactly a guarantee.
If these girls in the thread told their men "You never take me out anymore, and when you come over you act like a 50 year old after the kids moved out" they'd at least have a chance, slim as it is. But instead they probably don't know what's going wrong, and their women are preparing to swing to a new branch. Such is life.

Post: #66

(12-04-2019 12:15 AM)king bast Wrote:  

(12-03-2019 11:49 PM)No More Mr. Soy Boy Wrote:  

(12-03-2019 06:38 PM)PixelFree Wrote:  I don't see how you can make that conclusion. We don't know.

But how do you know enough to automatically place more blame on the man then?It's like somehow we're just supposed to always have compassion for these women while putting the blame on the men?

I'm not buying it and I don't think anyone would like a society where women are always given a free pass to start looking for other men if they feel the relationship is not going in the direction or in the pace they hoped for.
What you do then is that you set a time limit, like you said, and then move on first. After that, you're free to see the market. It's simple.

Simple - because we are men. We are supposed to hold ourselves to a higher standard than women and children.

Mein Gott, thankyou.

The meninist MGTOW movement increasingly smacks of that teenager with no friends who shouts "well I'm going to kill myself, and then you'll all be sorry you were so mean to me!"

"... I'm doing it! Last chance!"

"...I'm cutting my wrists! What do you think about that?! Huh?!"

"...Now you've gone and done it!!! I'm bleeding out!!! Prepare to suffer!!!"

Go and live in the third world?
With a fat chick?
Because you live in fear of being dumped by a woman so badly that you have to stack the deck so neatly in your favor?

I've seen these relationships and you know what happens? The dude gets dumped anyway. You know why? Because whether a woman is skinny or fat or rich or poor or educated or stupid, they AAAALLLLLLLL hate small, timid cowards. They cannot stand them. Even if they stuck with you for the cash they'll make your life a living hell while they henpeck you to a slow, pathetic death whereupon you have been worn down to a stub and utterly destroyed as a man. They don't sit around measuring relative SMVs. Their biological programming compels them to enslave cowards and mate with alphas. Such has it always been and so will it likely remain until the sun burns out.

I can only imagine these guys living through truly difficult times.

"This ration list is a joke! Stalin is an idiot to think that this is anything other than a starvation diet. Well I'll show him! When I've starved to death he will be denied my labor! THEN we'll see who gets the last laugh!"

Post: #67

(12-04-2019 01:26 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  Go and live in the third world?
With a fat chick?

I agree with the rest of your post, but I would say the reason guys leave the West for girls is because they don't want fat chicks.

Post: #68

(12-03-2019 12:57 AM)PixelFree Wrote:  FWIW, I've been on dates with 26 years olds in Ukraine and was instantly rejected once I told them my age. It might be easier in EE but certainly not a walk in the park.

Online dating is extremely skewed against men. Man has to find women in real life. If you built some attraction before telling your age then that will not be a blocker issue if you do not look like and behave like old.

I know it is extremely hard to meet women in real life. That was a struggle to myself and life even got worse since then: nowdays literally all women are constantly into their smartphones. Hard to fight against that trend.

Post: #69

(12-05-2019 04:51 AM)hkhathaj Wrote:  

(12-03-2019 12:57 AM)PixelFree Wrote:  FWIW, I've been on dates with 26 years olds in Ukraine and was instantly rejected once I told them my age. It might be easier in EE but certainly not a walk in the park.

Online dating is extremely skewed against men. Man has to find women in real life. If you built some attraction before telling your age then that will not be a blocker issue if you do not look like and behave like old.

I agree completely. I met her in real life, I think it's the only way. It was during our first date / meet up where she asked my age and then this happened (I do look and act much younger).

Even in Ukraine I thought online dating / Tinder was terrible. It's even worse in Australia.