Post: #1

Considering this is now a relationship subforum I think it would be useful to have a thread with the purpose of defining the essentials to having, and maintaining a healthy relationship. A discussion on this can help equip us with the knowledge and better instill the mindset required to navigate relationships.

Naturally, most of what we learn is through trial and error. Hindsight also teaches. Let’s take advantage that we can learn from each other’s experience to save each other time and frustration. There’s been a lot of advice on the matter in the forum over the years. But it’s been spread out, hence the need for a thread I believe that has it all together.

To get this started, I’ll share four things I learned from my last LTR. Feel free to read on if you’d like. But here’s a shortlist and divider in case you want to skim through then add your own input to the discussion.

- Always be willing to lose her
- Never say I love you first
- You will need to compromise, but *how* you compromise is key
- You can mold her (her beliefs and habits)

***

I’ll start my list with two points that are not my own, but from Heartiste. I believe these two are arguably the most important rules to a healthy relationship, as I followed them well and it helped me establish a good frame going into it, which I believe helped prevent a lot of problems that would have resulted.

1) Always be willing to lose her

By far the most important LTR advice for men in my opinion. Whether you’re trying to plan the second date, continuing to see her after your first night together, 3 months in, a year in… In the back of your mind, you need to firmly believe that if you were to lose her – for any reason at all – you would be okay. It may make you sad, but it wouldn’t be a tragedy, and perhaps it would be for the best.

There’s a mindset associated with this rule. Because when you inevitably get into some conflicts down the line, you’re not trying to get through them with desperation. Rather, you can have a frame where you can take a moment to think about what to compromise and more importantly what you won’t compromise – and you’ll put your foot down when necessary and not be shaken. Essentially, “my way or the highway” done reasonably. Done correctly, she’ll sense that you’re truly not afraid of losing her, and perhaps realize that it could be her that’s afraid to lose you if she doesn’t compromise – which increases her respect and attraction for you.

I'll make a note on compromising later because that’s a valuable lesson in itself.

2) Never say I love you first

A shorter point on this than before. I can’t put this any better than Heartiste did originally on the importance of not telling her you love her first. She needs to feel like she can’t help it anymore, and profess her feelings to you in a vulnerable moment where she gives in in a loss of control. This is the moment where she feels won over by you and realizes you’re the color in her life. This and more.

This moment where she gives in is essential for a relationship to proceed in a good direction. If you're less experienced with relationships and haven't followed this rule before, be patient, and don't break. There are precursors to this moment that let you know you're on the right direction (conversations about where is this going, her telling you she misses you, and so on, the basics).

A big reason I believe a lot men get the short end of the stick in relationships is because they *enter* it with a poor frame, by going against both of the above rules. Not much more to say on this except that following the above allows you to have an excellent starting point for progressing into a meaningful relationship.

3) You will need to compromise, but *how* you compromise is key

Reading too much into game may have you believe that an alpha never compromises, or that’s the moment he turns into a beta… This is not realistic, unless you’re dating a woman whose value is extremely low compared to yours. If you’re dating an attractive girl, there will be arguments and tugs of war on things – some important, others trivial – where it essentially comes down to compromise.

I think there are two things from what I've noticed that are crucial for you to not lose in these moments. First, is that your value has to be at the very least equal to hers – NOT objectively, but in her eyes. Her perception is what matters most. If you followed the rule of letting her say I love you first and it was an intensely emotional moment for her, and the signs since then are still positive then you’re doing well, because a woman only falls in love with a man whose value she sees above hers.

Second, is how you compromise. This part is harder, and I haven’t fully grasped it yet, though I’ve learned a lot. I think it’s a combination of having the right conviction and set of principles. Some things where compromises come into play may be on important things, or trivial nonsense, but it all matters. Lacking good examples at the moment as I’m focused on the point but, you will have to tell her NO on some things that you won’t compromise on for whatever reason. This is basic. But you’ll be tested by her pleading, or even her cries, and you’ll have to be firm.

Other times, you’ll have to compromise and do something for her that you probably wouldn’t do in most cases – but she is your woman and considering the extent of what she does for you (as she should) then it’s out of reciprocation, which is a more positive lens to place over the topic of compromise.

An essay could be written on this so will keep that brief and to the point, I’ll still be contemplating it further. A takeaway point on this is, you should *never* feel like you're compromising more than her. Just as it should feel like she's slightly (at the very least) more invested in the relationship than you.

4) You can mold her

Lastly for now, this is something I learned throughout the course of my last 1.5 year relationship. To an extent, a woman can change, and will change, if you make that demand upon her in a reasonable, tactful, and gradual way. First things first – what she can’t change is her personality. If you struggle with this (as I did somewhat in my past LTR) then this alone could tear apart your relationship. But let’s focus on what can be changed – which are primarily her habits, opinions, and beliefs.

There’s a reason you don’t talk about politics when meeting a girl, for instance. But unless she’s a diehard feminist (truly rare), it’s alright if she leans left in her views. It’s alright if her opinions are different than yours. Even if she’s career oriented already in her early 20’s, it’s not something to worry too much about, rather to keep in mind. I’ve seen that, assuming she’s late in her teens or under 25, women are generally not fixed yet in their beliefs. Women after all are more impressionable.

On the point that concerns you. IF you have her love and commitment – and you present your viewpoints to her in a tactful and gradual way, you should find that she starts to skew in your direction. She starts to adopt some of your beliefs, at least in part. You may not fully agree on politics (not essential anyway, what’s important is not having completely opposite viewpoints). But on some other important things… Like her focusing on her career first, family second… This can be changed – again, assuming she is sufficiently invested in you. With tact, you can present to her arguments that will have her understand your points, slowly causing her to adopt them as her own. For example, how women who focus on their career first end up childless and unhappy (of course, not delivered so bluntly). How women who first focus on family, and later career are more content in the long run. How the cold truth is that women have 10 years to sort out their family ambitions, and the rest of their life for their career. Ultimately, you need to first have your beliefs set in stone on whatever important matter, and present it to her appropriately and in doses. This is how her opinions and beliefs can be changed in the context of your relationship.

Next is her habits. A shorter point on this, but similar tone on what’s been mentioned. Not that you should be dating a girl completely addicted to social media and external attention... but if you see her wasting a lot of time with this or it being a problem, you can nip the bad habits overtime. Gradually present your viewpoints, and reinforce good habits. For eg. If you don’t like that she hangs out with a girlfriend who has a drinking problem (and is probably a bad influence) you can essentially cut that person from her life, having that be her choice, by convincing her there’s nothing good to be gained from it in the right way. You can reinforce good habits in turn, such as going with you to the gym to commit to a healthier lifestyle. This way you’re getting rid of a bad habit and replacing it with a good one. This was just one quick example, but the principle can be applied in many areas.

The point here is that done the right way, you can indeed mold her to a great extent – assuming it’s not changing her traits, and that you have her love and commitment.

I think suggesting otherwise or that it's not possible is foolish. A case in point is how women change men they're dating all the time. You can bet she's going to be trying to change you, too. But that goes back to compromises. The point is, you can indeed mold her, more than you may think. Water takes the shape of the glass it fills.

In my relationship, I saw a list of bad habits in the beginning. A couple of toxic friends, intentions of going to a club to dance, instagram use, being friendly with orbiters (who are obviously trying to be her friends… sarcasm), not cooking at all, and more. Overtime, she cut off her bad friends and orbiters, quit instagram (seeing it was a waste of time, who knew), started cooking for us and learned to enjoy it (need to reward good behavior too.. can literally do it with good sex), lost 10 pounds and got in good shape, grew out her hair, and more.

It's important to stress that it's a gradual process with this. But since you'll only be exploring this option in an LTR, you have time.

I could go on (and I already did longer than intended) but that’s enough for now. I may add more thoughts later.

So, what have you learned from your relationships, that you would consider an essential rule or set of rules to follow, or lessons to ensuring a healthy LTR?

Post: #2

good points! I also have one live your life as though she isn't part of it ....

That doesn't mean that you should ignore or dismiss her. Just don't let her hold you back when you make decisions.

"should I go out with my buddies, hmmm what will she say"

NO

"I'll go out with my buddies"

...

Post: #3

Quote:a woman only falls in love with a man whose value she sees above hers.

Most important thought in the post, in my opinion.

Post: #4

A healthy relationship is basically one where you remain with a SMV that is higher than most men she comes across and one where she is surrounded by peers that would shame acts of cheating and she knows she would get ostracized from the community if she did something.

The female homo sapiens is one of the most primitive animals on planet Earth, so it's important to have that self-interest there because that's the only reason a woman will stay faithful with you for life.

As you go through life and meet enough people, she'll eventuallly come across someone she'll have more desire and attraction for than you.
If you only rely on the woman's so called morality to prevent here from fucking that guy and cuck you, you're being delusional.

The rest is all fucking bullshit.


This is Chad and Stacy.



Thanks to Chad's high SMV things will always be pretty good between them. Even regardless that he cheats a bit on her on the side, she can deal with it as long as he's low-key. Besides that she also loves to tell friends the story when Chad brought her to Burger King, put an onion ring on her finger and first said he loves her.

This is Joe



Things are not good between him and his Stacy. They argue all the time and lately Stacey has started to spend all weekends with her friends going out partying and meeting some male friend called Chad while leaving Joe at home with his Xbox. Joe can't believe it, because after all, he applied the "Never say I love you first"-rule and he has read 800 books on different relationship techniques.

Being high SMV is what matters in life.

Post: #5

Not saying I love you first is crucial. It drove my gf mad and she finally did. I told her I had a lot of love for her and then two weeks later I told her that I loved her. Not trying to do any mindgames, I was just taken by surprise a bit and wanted to make sure I did love her.

I'll add that having the same values is key. I don't see any relationship with an open-boarders champoning abortion-supporting girl lasting long at all, or even worth getting into

Post: #6

I would add that a woman's virginity is very important. There's something about it that makes them more pleasant to be around, and more likely to follow your lead. Women that sleep around are also repulsive.

At the very least, the only man they can sleep with before you is a long-term boyfriend. But even then, it becomes easier for them to lie, and riskier for you. I guess it would have to be a judgement call and getting to know them.

Post: #7

I did all of the above in the OP and yet it failed.
It is clear that when you become comfortable in the rs, you have only a small window of time to fix it before she starts losing attraction to you and shit starts going downhill.

The other thing that I have not tried as I've never been a husband or a father, but I think plays a big part is that, if you're in a LTR you should commit within 2 years and have kids/start family (marriage or not) because otherwise the woman will start having doubts about your or get bored and lose sight of the couple's goals. Leaving the evolutionary purpose of (especially younger women) (temporarily) unfulfilled for to long is a recipe for disaster as they get more and more sucked in other priorities such as the evil absurdities of careers/jobs/and most importantly other losers-orbiters that she might be swindled by.

Post: #8

(12-02-2019 11:51 PM)randomA Wrote:  I did all of the above in the OP and yet it failed.
It is clear that when you become comfortable in the rs, you have only a small window of time to fix it before she starts losing attraction to you and shit starts going downhill.

The other thing that I have not tried as I've never been a husband or a father, but I think plays a big part is that, if you're in a LTR you should commit within 2 years and have kids/start family (marriage or not) because otherwise the woman will start having doubts about your or get bored and lose sight of the couple's goals. Leaving the evolutionary purpose of (especially younger women) (temporarily) unfulfilled for to long is a recipe for disaster as they get more and more sucked in other priorities such as the evil absurdities of careers/jobs/and most importantly other losers-orbiters that she might be swindled by.

This. I think all of us here are guilty of having been in a relationship lasting 2+ years, and it going absolutely nowhere. If we look back at why it failed, we can pinpoint it to the relationship staying stagnant. If we are truthful with ourselves, we mainly looked at LTRs as a means of sexual release. Everything else was secondary. In short, LTRs facilitated a sterile lifestyle while inhibiting man's physical and mental growth. Instead of spending our youth raising our SMV in order to catch a high SMV to settle down and have a family with, we instead settled for a girl who pleased us sexually. Most of us stopped working on ourselves and as a result, our SMV went down, hence the woman in the relationship failed to see us in the same light as at the start of the relationship.

As no more mr soyboy pointed out, SMV reigns. if men cease to work in improving his SMV, or at least, keep it from lowering, then the woman will start going astray. I think it's no coincidence Men let themselves go once they enter a relationship where they get their sexual desires met. They have no further biological drive in order to improve. You get to fullfill your carnal needs while avoiding the responsibility of creating a home and raising a family as the result of sex. Why would young men work towards something better? As per our current culture, being in a sterile relationship is the End goal.

I think it is very important for men NOT to enter a serious relationship until he is financially stable, and mentally mature.Also, that serious relationship should be oriented towards marriage/children. That way, you will naturally vet your future wife for any redflags, as you do not want a crazy/broken woman being the mother of your children.

Post: #9

(12-02-2019 07:04 PM)No More Mr. Soy Boy Wrote:  Things are not good between him and his Stacy. They argue all the time and lately Stacey has started to spend all weekends with her friends going out partying and meeting some male friend called Chad while leaving Joe at home with his Xbox. Joe can't believe it, because after all, he applied the "Never say I love you first"-rule and he has read 800 books on different relationship techniques.

Being high SMV is what matters in life.

Yes, it's important to have a high SMV if you want high SMV girls. Your example however is flawed, because you're describing a relationship where the man has already completely lost frame. So of course she's gonna be receptive to the attractive guys she meets while she's out.

Quote: A healthy relationship is basically one where you remain with a SMV that is higher than most men she comes across ...

As you go through life and meet enough people, she'll eventuallly come across someone she'll have more desire and attraction for than you.

Agreed that it's important for you to have a higher SMV than her based on her perception. This is a prerequisite to gaining her love and ultimately devotion.

But your point on other men is utterly false, unless we're talking about average relationships... Where the woman has a nice boyfriend, she likes him, and she tells her girlfriends about how sweet he is.

Now if we're talking about the relationships we should be striving for – healthy ones by our definition, it's going to be a different story. With a woman's true love and devotion, *you* are the Chad.

Again – a woman only falls in love with a man whose value she sees is higher. This, plus a variety of factors, including time, shared memories, bonding, and so on. Combine these ingredients and you have a woman under the illusion that you're the best she can get. And you better believe it, because if you don't, overtime the facade will fall.

This is what matters.

(12-02-2019 11:51 PM)randomA Wrote:  I did all of the above in the OP and yet it failed.
It is clear that when you become comfortable in the rs, you have only a small window of time to fix it before she starts losing attraction to you and shit starts going downhill.

So it's possible that you did have her love, but it faded overtime, possibly due to your complacency or some other factor. It's an assumption as it's impossible to know your situation properly of course.

The point is to not become comfortable in the relationship. And the best way to do that is to have something going for you that is much greater than the relationship you have with her. This is why it's so important so be focused on yourself at all times, and your mission, as Heartiste puts it.

That's one thing. But others too:
- Staying fit
- Dressing sharp
- Having social events that don't involve her
- Not compromising on time with good friends
- Occasionally causing jealousy – flirting with girls in front of her, reciprocating their eye contact. Don't be actively looking at attractive girls when you're out with her, but do be on the lookout for their eye contact. When you notice one of them checking you out, you better not break that eye contact. You may get into an argument with your girl over this but it will be worth it

That's just a few points, there's more on the matter elsewhere.

Point is that yes – never get comfortable.

Quote:The other thing that I have not tried as I've never been a husband or a father, but I think plays a big part is that, if you're in a LTR you should commit within 2 years and have kids/start family (marriage or not) because otherwise the woman will start having doubts about your or get bored and lose sight of the couple's goals.

I don't have any experience here but the point you're touching on is a good one. I'm also starting to think that you have to have an action plan behind an LTR. Need to determine early on if she's a serious prospect for something more. She should pass that test with flying colors if you're to proceed beyond a few months. Any doubt and she can be dropped, or an LTR shouldn't be part of the discussion.

Post: #10

(12-03-2019 03:57 PM)Nascimento Wrote:  Again – a woman only falls in love with a man whose value she sees is higher. This, plus a variety of factors, including time, shared memories, bonding, and so on. Combine these ingredients and you have a woman under the illusion that you're the best she can get. And you better believe it, because if you don't, overtime the facade will fall.

I agree with this, but in the west there are so many factors working against you. Usually she sees herself a few points higher than reality would support. The you-go-girl culture has made her think men are optional. Beta orbiters are at record levels. Male thirst is off the charts.

For her to truly believe you are the best she can get, you're going to have to be way above her in SMV. That's why you should date women who are overweight and/or very plain looking. No one wants to hear that, but it's true.

Think about the final sentence in the quoted paragraph. You have to truly believe that you are well above her in SMV, for the long term. That means there will be many moments when you think to yourself, "What am I doing with her?" Sometimes others will tell you that you could do a lot better. Yes, you could, but a more attractive partner would not feel that admiration and devotion necessary to make the family stable.

To build a family in the modern west, you need insurance, and the best insurance is a large SMV difference.

Go find you a 4.

Post: #11

(12-03-2019 03:57 PM)Nascimento Wrote:  Agreed that it's important for you to have a higher SMV than her based on her perception. This is a prerequisite to gaining her love and ultimately devotion.

But your point on other men is utterly false, unless we're talking about average relationships... Where the woman has a nice boyfriend, she likes him, and she tells her girlfriends about how sweet he is.

Now if we're talking about the relationships we should be striving for – healthy ones by our definition, it's going to be a different story. With a woman's true love and devotion, *you* are the Chad.

Again – a woman only falls in love with a man whose value she sees is higher. This, plus a variety of factors, including time, shared memories, bonding, and so on. Combine these ingredients and you have a woman under the illusion that you're the best she can get. And you better believe it, because if you don't, overtime the facade will fall.

This is what matters.

My point is just that I don't think these kind of rules "never say you love her first" really matters. I'm sure there have been billions of relationships that worked well regardless that man said he loved the woman first but I know for fact that there are few relationships that have worked well when the woman perceives your SMV to not be anything special.

i used to focus on things like that all the time to make sure I acted according to the rules of game but there's rarely any context and it usually just makes things worse. If you listen to these PUAs you will hear them have lots of rules like that. How you can't touch a girl before you've opened her or that you can't text within 16.5 h after the number close.

And then you're made to believe that it didn't work with her because you sent that text after only 14 h and so on, when the reality is that she didn't think you have high SMV.

There are also factors like how much she values the word "love" or if you said you love her first in a cheeky, almost jokingly way which just makes it easier for her to starting using the word "love" instead of "like". I believe it's a non-issue. If you ask many old couples today I don't think many of them will even remember who said "I love you" first.

(12-03-2019 05:24 PM)WombRaider Wrote:  I agree with this, but in the west there are so many factors working against you. Usually she sees herself a few points higher than reality would support. The you-go-girl culture has made her think men are optional. Beta orbiters are at record levels. Male thirst is off the charts.

For her to truly believe you are the best she can get, you're going to have to be way above her in SMV. That's why you should date women who are overweight and/or very plain looking. No one wants to hear that, but it's true.

Think about the final sentence in the quoted paragraph. You have to truly believe that you are well above her in SMV, for the long term. That means there will be many moments when you think to yourself, "What am I doing with her?" Sometimes others will tell you that you could do a lot better. Yes, you could, but a more attractive partner would not feel that admiration and devotion necessary to make the family stable.

To build a family in the modern west, you need insurance, and the best insurance is a large SMV difference.

Go find you a 4.

That's a hard black pill to swallow but I believe you're completely right, unfortunately.
If not, most us here would probably already be in a relationship but we can only get women on that level to truly commit and I think most guys would rather choose to go MGTOW than to settle for a 4.

Just to sleep with a 4 has in itself become increasingly difficult for the average man. When a girl have had ONS with celebs and handsome guys who've just fucked them on a drunk night out they obviously start to perceive themselves as almost being on that level.

Post: #12

(12-03-2019 07:14 PM)No More Mr. Soy Boy Wrote:  My point is just that I don't think these kind of rules "never say you love her first" really matters. I'm sure there have been billions of relationships that worked well regardless that man said he loved the woman first but I know for fact that there are few relationships that have worked well when the woman perceives your SMV to not be anything special.

i used to focus on things like that all the time to make sure I acted according to the rules of game but there's rarely any context and it usually just makes things worse. If you listen to these PUAs you will hear them have lots of rules like that. How you can't touch a girl before you've opened her or that you can't text within 16.5 h after the number close.

And then you're made to believe that it didn't work with her because you sent that text after only 14 h and so on, when the reality is that she didn't think you have high SMV.

There are also factors like how much she values the word "love" or if you said you love her first in a cheeky, almost jokingly way which just makes it easier for her to starting using the word "love" instead of "like". I believe it's a non-issue. If you ask many old couples today I don't think many of them will even remember who said "I love you" first.

I don't think many of those rules were meant to be used past the "fake it until you make it" learning stage. Sure, don't say I love you first until you have the emotional literacy to understand it, since an AFC might assume that throwing it out there at any time would raise his value because he said the L word. But the deeper meaning is to give your partner the thrill of earning the words in the relationship, and the more you learn, the more you know about when that time is outside of a cut and dry rule.

Post: #13

(12-03-2019 05:24 PM)WombRaider Wrote:  For her to truly believe you are the best she can get, you're going to have to be way above her in SMV. That's why you should date women who are overweight and/or very plain looking. No one wants to hear that, but it's true.

Come on. You can do better than this mentality.

Post: #14

(12-04-2019 12:13 AM)Nascimento Wrote:  Come on. You can do better than this mentality.

4s are the new 7s.

Post: #15

What is the SMV of an average 43 year old woman with two kids ?

4 ? .. maybe 5 ?

The average age of divorce for women is 43.

70% of divorces are initiated by women.

What does that tell you ?

Post: #16

(12-04-2019 10:18 AM)WombRaider Wrote:  

(12-04-2019 12:13 AM)Nascimento Wrote:  Come on. You can do better than this mentality.

4s are the new 7s.

Sure dude. Just don't complain when your LTR 4 boosted to a 7 boosts her own ego into thinking she's a 9 fit for a carousel ride.

Post: #17

(12-04-2019 10:18 AM)WombRaider Wrote:  

(12-04-2019 12:13 AM)Nascimento Wrote:  Come on. You can do better than this mentality.

4s are the new 7s.

I'm rich but average looking and I'm planning on getting a jaw surgery and possibly something done on my cheekbones. I think most average looking to ugly rich men are oblivious to the effect of their looks on their general SMVs. We can always do something against low natural SMVs. We know that modern women now have their own money so money is less significant than it was, causing physical attractiveness to become more important.

What I don't really get is that a lot of black-pilled guys are against having an attractive wife. Although an ugly wife can be a good wife and mother, you will feel disgusted and will not get good looking children. I truly believe that having good looking children is great in and of itself, especially if you are rich but not naturally good looking. Your future son could have 5 million dollars but if he's ugly because he has bad genes, I doubt he could succeed with women in the future.

Post: #18

Clearly I had excessive expectations to have a discussion of this caliber. But who knows, this may change. The amount of game-denialism so far in this thread is astounding.

Post: #19

(12-04-2019 11:18 AM)ErEsserman Wrote:  I'm rich but average looking and I'm planning on getting a jaw surgery and possibly something done on my cheekbones.

I'm surious about this and sent you a PM. You might not be able to reply until you have a higher post count, though.

Post: #20

(12-04-2019 11:35 AM)Nascimento Wrote:  Clearly I had excessive expectations to have a discussion of this caliber. But who knows, this may change. The amount of game-denialism so far in this thread is astounding.

I get what you're saying. I believe that game definitely works for decent looking guys, it's just not for ugly guys. The problem with PUA and a lot of the old school stuff is that there are some girls that, no matter how good your game is, are off limits if you look as ugly and feminine as the guy in the picture.
Do you think a guy with his looks would easily have sex with attractive girls in the US?

Post: #21

(12-04-2019 10:40 AM)kazimierzdabrowski Wrote:  Sure dude. Just don't complain when your LTR 4 boosted to a 7 boosts her own ego into thinking she's a 9 fit for a carousel ride.

Could happen, but what do you think your legit 7 is going to do -- and a lot sooner? Anyway, it's less likely if you're living in a small town in the Philippines, Indonesia, etc.

Post: #22

(12-04-2019 11:58 AM)ErEsserman Wrote:  Do you think a guy with his looks would easily have sex with attractive girls in the US?

That guy looks fine to me, no homo. Probably does OK with a certain demographic, but puts off a provider vibe that could attract dominant women and predators. I saw a guy similar to this the other day with a legit 8.5 former stripper.

Post: #23

(12-04-2019 11:18 AM)ErEsserman Wrote:  I'm rich but average looking and I'm planning on getting a jaw surgery and possibly something done on my cheekbones. I think most average looking to ugly rich men are oblivious to the effect of their looks on their general SMVs. We can always do something against low natural SMVs. We know that modern women now have their own money so money is less significant than it was, causing physical attractiveness to become more important.

https://heartiste.org/2014/07/17/study-l...do-to-men/

"Men are more viscerally aroused by female looks than are women by male looks. Men, therefore, can neither rely on their looks to get and keep women, nor excuse their failure with women based on their looks. Game, aka applied charisma, is about exploiting that soft space between a woman’s subjective assessment of her own arousal and her actual, primal arousal. As always, don’t listen to what women say, watch what they do. And nothing watches as closely as an MRI looking right into her friggin noggin."

Post: #24

(12-04-2019 11:35 AM)Nascimento Wrote:  Clearly I had excessive expectations to have a discussion of this caliber. But who knows, this may change. The amount of game-denialism so far in this thread is astounding.

Post: #25

(12-04-2019 12:10 PM)kazimierzdabrowski Wrote:  

(12-04-2019 11:18 AM)ErEsserman Wrote:  I'm rich but average looking and I'm planning on getting a jaw surgery and possibly something done on my cheekbones. I think most average looking to ugly rich men are oblivious to the effect of their looks on their general SMVs. We can always do something against low natural SMVs. We know that modern women now have their own money so money is less significant than it was, causing physical attractiveness to become more important.

https://heartiste.org/2014/07/17/study-l...do-to-men/

"Men are more viscerally aroused by female looks than are women by male looks. Men, therefore, can neither rely on their looks to get and keep women, nor excuse their failure with women based on their looks. Game, aka applied charisma, is about exploiting that soft space between a woman’s subjective assessment of her own arousal and her actual, primal arousal. As always, don’t listen to what women say, watch what they do. And nothing watches as closely as an MRI looking right into her friggin noggin."

This here. Looks are a foot in the door. They can help the early stages of an interaction. They can get you more leads. They can increase the room for error you have in the beginning.

But in the context of LTRs, looks are not nearly at the top of the priorities for a healthy relationship. Game, charisma, self-assurance, attitude... and ultimately how these play into your frame in the relationship is by far most important.

The good thing is that for guys who not in the top bracket of looks, is that you can still do things to get your foot in the door in the context I mentioned. These are obvious. Working out, dressing well are big ones.

But game and how you apply it is #1. As WIA said sometime ago, something I'll never forget – pretty boy has her eyes, player has her attention.

Also, to address some of the negative points made earlier. I have a good friend who is your stereotypical chad. Good looking at 6'5, 200lbs, college athlete with national accolades. Party lifestyle, huge social circle, and plenty of experience with the girls that come with all that.

He took a break from the hook ups and got into a LTR. Decent looking girl, though he could do better, but not that it matters. Just making a point to illustrate this (point) on SMV. She seemed nice, so I was happy for him because he seemed happy.

Long story short of that one, she cheated on him. Multiple times. All because he didn't have a good frame in the relationship. He was doing too much for her, which was a particular problem when it was things he didn't want to do. He stopped hanging out with his friends as much because she wanted more of his time (too much of it). Worst of all, he failed to properly (tactfully) restrain her when it came to the attention of her orbiters, and was very passive when it came to her doing things with her "friends".

All it took was a guy that was bold and pushing the right buttons a long game to seduce her once. Then again, and again. Compare him with my friend and on the surface, there's no contest. Objectively, my buddy was close to a 10. But in the eyes of the GF, he no longer was – again, it's a girl's perception of your value that matters most, for better or worse.

So let's put an end to the game-denialism here.