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Episcopal Church Alternative
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bobmjilica Offline
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Episcopal Church Alternative
Does anyone have experience with the Anglican Church in North America (or other similar groups that split with the Episcopal Church over their acceptance of women priests and sodomy)? I was baptized in the Episcopal church and am not sure if I'm ready to convert to Orthodoxy or TLM Catholicism. It seems like they are pro traditional marriage, anti-zionist, and do not have women as priests. They also read the KJV Bible, instead of these fringe Bibles that some leftist and Zionist 'Christian' groups read. Any thoughts?
12-11-2019 11:43 PM
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BigFellow Offline
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RE: Episcopal Church Alternative
(12-11-2019 11:43 PM)bobmjilica Wrote:  Does anyone have experience with the Anglican Church in North America (or other similar groups that split with the Episcopal Church over their acceptance of women priests and sodomy)? I was baptized in the Episcopal church and am not sure if I'm ready to convert to Orthodoxy or TLM Catholicism. It seems like they are pro traditional marriage, anti-zionist, and do not have women as priests. They also read the KJV Bible, instead of these fringe Bibles that some leftist and Zionist 'Christian' groups read. Any thoughts?
12-14-2019 08:40 AM
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BigFellow Offline
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RE: Episcopal Church Alternative
I was raised Episcopalian so I have taken a look at that and visited a number of splinter Anglican churches. I liked the liturgy and style of the Episcopal church, but I deplore its liberalism.

There is a lot of diversity and not much unity among these splinter Anglican churches. What frustrates me is that most of these churches tend to be contemporary in style, or they go to the opposite extreme and start reverting more towards Roman Catholicism.

I went to one of these Anglican churches that was contemporary and had a woman preach. On the other hand, many of them address the pastor as "Father," which makes me somewhat uncomfortable. If someone can convince me that Sola Scriptura is wrong, then I wouldn't be as uncomfortable. But if we're going to espouse Sola Scriptura, we don't have a basis for addressing the priest as Father.

Lately I have been exploring a Lutheran church that is part of the Missouri Synod. It bothers me that they practice closed communion, which most Anglican churches don't do. However, there is at least a lot of unity and it is a relatively large denomination. It is liturgical so it isn't all that different in style from an Episcopal church.
12-14-2019 08:50 AM
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Emperor Constantine Offline
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RE: Episcopal Church Alternative
The difference between the ACNA and the Episcopal Church basically boils down to the wrongness of homosexual marriage and abortion. Other than that, the ACNA is very similar. They have a similar liturgy, use the inadequate new lectionaries, ordain women, etc. (There are ACNA clergy who preach against women's ordination, but their denomination practices it.)

Another option is the continuing Anglicans, a group of denominations that continue to use the 1928 prayer book, are theologically orthodox, and only ordain men. The Anglican Catholic Church, the Anglican Province of Christ the King, and several others. The ACC has a parish locator that shows both their own and other continuing parishes. I regret that I haven't lived near one so I can't give you a real review. If you do find one you can attend I'd definitely be interested to hear how it goes.

There is also western rite Orthodoxy, basically conservative Episcopalian parishes that changed teams to Eastern Orthodox but kept their BCP liturgy (slightly modified). The Antiochian WR parishes are listed here and the ROCOR ones are listed here. They use Eastern theology and canon law, just with Anglican worship services.

Both the WR Orthodox and the continuing Anglicans are pretty small groups, so you might have no luck finding anything within driving distance. It's worth checking, though.
12-14-2019 02:49 PM
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MichaelWitcoff Offline
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RE: Episcopal Church Alternative
The reason that the Orthodox (and Catholics) refer to priests as “Father” is because, as far as we can tell, there is no point in Christian history at which people did not call their priest Father. Nobody in all of the ancient Church ever thought about it, or wrote about it, as something new and controversial. And there is a Biblical basis, too: St. Paul says that he became a father to his spiritual children.

“In Christ Jesus I became your father through the Gospel.” - 1 Corinthians 4:15

So even from a purely Sola Scriptura perspective, there is a Biblical precedent for using the honorary title “Father” to refer to someone who guides you in the Gospel.

Jewish convert to Orthodox Christianity and best-selling author of "On The Masons And Their Lies."
(This post was last modified: 12-14-2019 09:48 PM by MichaelWitcoff.)
12-14-2019 09:46 PM
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SoyGoy Offline
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RE: Episcopal Church Alternative
(12-14-2019 09:46 PM)MichaelWitcoff Wrote:  The reason that the Orthodox (and Catholics) refer to priests as “Father” is because, as far as we can tell, there is no point in Christian history at which people did not call their priest Father. Nobody in all of the ancient Church ever thought about it, or wrote about it, as something new and controversial. And there is a Biblical basis, too: St. Paul says that he became a father to his spiritual children.

“In Christ Jesus I became your father through the Gospel.” - 1 Corinthians 4:15

So even from a purely Sola Scriptura perspective, there is a Biblical precedent for using the honorary title “Father” to refer to someone who guides you in the Gospel.

Respectfully, the KJV version of 1 Corinthians 4:15 does not have any mention of Paul calling himself a "father"... (((they))) pulled a bit of a fast one by adding that into the newer watered-down translations...

1 Corinthian 4:15 (KJV)
Quote:For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

Note the context... "through the gospel"... How many "priests" do you know who place the true gospel message/Scripture over manmade non-biblical traditions like "sunday service", doing the "sign of the cross" and wearing a golden tammuz idol/cross on their body/temple?

Matthew 3:29
Quote:And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

"one" is one.
(This post was last modified: 12-14-2019 10:14 PM by SoyGoy.)
12-14-2019 09:59 PM
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RE: Episcopal Church Alternative
The above is a silly response. No wonder he got banned. Of course, the next line of St. Paul (verse 16) is "therefore, be imitators of me." Which means, be a father like I am to you, as I have begotten you --- that's why RSV and all the others translate it the way they do.

I find all the sola stuff literally nutso. I better go pluck my eye out, God told me to. Oh wait, first I better eat his body and drink his blood. Oh wait, they don't take that part literally.

Hmm, seems like they make up all these "traditions" as they go along. Interesting ...

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12-17-2019 11:35 PM
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debeguiled Offline
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RE: Episcopal Church Alternative
(12-17-2019 11:35 PM)Kid Twist Wrote:  The above is a silly response. No wonder he got banned. Of course, the next line of St. Paul (verse 16) is "therefore, be imitators of me." Which means, be a father like I am to you, as I have begotten you --- that's why RSV and all the others translate it the way they do.

That verse from Matthew is a pretty clear directive from Jesus not to call earthly men spiritual fathers.

I think God did this because the natural inclination of the human being is to forget about God and focus on ourselves and each other.

He knows we are going to do it anyway, he is just trying to slow us down a bit and remind us who is in charge.

Calling someone father leads to the temptation of following them more than you follow Jesus.

Paul even warned about this impulse:

1 Corinthians 11-15

Quote:My brothers and sisters, some from Chloe’s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas b ”; still another, “I follow Christ.”

Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul? I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15so no one can say that you were baptized in my name.

This is at best a minor doctrinal dispute. Some traditions use the honorific "Father" and some don't. As long as you keep your attention on what is important, and don't get waylaid by titles and honors, this doesn't seem like something that should be a big deal.

“That sig BTW is a very asinine anti-family anti-parent quote. You live in a country where 40% of children grow up without a biological father, yet somehow “the greatest burden a child must bear is the unlived life of its parents”? Sorry but this is fruity Boomer nonsense.”

911
12-18-2019 02:11 PM
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Kid Twist Offline
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RE: Episcopal Church Alternative
I agree with your sentiment.

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12-19-2019 12:09 AM
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MichaelWitcoff Offline
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RE: Episcopal Church Alternative
St. Jerome, commenting on the "call no man father" verse, mentioned some Christians - primarily Egyptian and other Eastern monastics - had a tradition of calling each other "Father." The way he described it makes it sound like it wasn't something he, himself, was participating in, as he used that example to show that sometimes Christians did use the honorary title "father" and it seems he would have referenced his own territory if it was something the West was doing at the time. So perhaps I was wrong, and that it really isn't something that was being done everywhere from the very beginning.

He does make the point, however, that even in those cases their "fatherhood" is based on their being reflections of God's wisdom and has nothing to do with the men themselves. So it is more like "the Father" is teaching through them, rather than that they as individuals are in charge of the teachings. Which seems like it should be dependent on those men teaching properly in the first place.

Jewish convert to Orthodox Christianity and best-selling author of "On The Masons And Their Lies."
(This post was last modified: 12-19-2019 12:31 AM by MichaelWitcoff.)
12-19-2019 12:26 AM
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Radu Anghel Offline
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RE: Episcopal Church Alternative
(12-14-2019 08:50 AM)BigFellow Wrote:  I was raised Episcopalian so I have taken a look at that and visited a number of splinter Anglican churches. I liked the liturgy and style of the Episcopal church, but I deplore its liberalism.

There is a lot of diversity and not much unity among these splinter Anglican churches. What frustrates me is that most of these churches tend to be contemporary in style, or they go to the opposite extreme and start reverting more towards Roman Catholicism.

I went to one of these Anglican churches that was contemporary and had a woman preach. On the other hand, many of them address the pastor as "Father," which makes me somewhat uncomfortable. If someone can convince me that Sola Scriptura is wrong, then I wouldn't be as uncomfortable. But if we're going to espouse Sola Scriptura, we don't have a basis for addressing the priest as Father.

Lately I have been exploring a Lutheran church that is part of the Missouri Synod. It bothers me that they practice closed communion, which most Anglican churches don't do. However, there is at least a lot of unity and it is a relatively large denomination. It is liturgical so it isn't all that different in style from an Episcopal church.

https://russian-faith.com/explaining-ort...rBsW1tASXE
12-19-2019 05:09 AM
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Radu Anghel Offline
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RE: Episcopal Church Alternative
(12-18-2019 02:11 PM)debeguiled Wrote:  
(12-17-2019 11:35 PM)Kid Twist Wrote:  The above is a silly response. No wonder he got banned. Of course, the next line of St. Paul (verse 16) is "therefore, be imitators of me." Which means, be a father like I am to you, as I have begotten you --- that's why RSV and all the others translate it the way they do.

That verse from Matthew is a pretty clear directive from Jesus not to call earthly men spiritual fathers.

I think God did this because the natural inclination of the human being is to forget about God and focus on ourselves and each other.

He knows we are going to do it anyway, he is just trying to slow us down a bit and remind us who is in charge.

Calling someone father leads to the temptation of following them more than you follow Jesus.

Paul even warned about this impulse:

1 Corinthians 11-15

Quote:My brothers and sisters, some from Chloe’s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas b ”; still another, “I follow Christ.”

Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul? I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15so no one can say that you were baptized in my name.

This is at best a minor doctrinal dispute. Some traditions use the honorific "Father" and some don't. As long as you keep your attention on what is important, and don't get waylaid by titles and honors, this doesn't seem like something that should be a big deal.

https://russian-faith.com/explaining-ort...rBsW1tASXE
12-19-2019 05:11 AM
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bobmjilica Offline
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RE: Episcopal Church Alternative
I agree with this sentiment for the most part. Ultimately its a very minor issue though, and it wouldn't be a deal breaker for me to be referring to the priests as 'father'. I would just respect the customs, and trust the greater process.
(12-18-2019 02:11 PM)debeguiled Wrote:  
(12-17-2019 11:35 PM)Kid Twist Wrote:  The above is a silly response. No wonder he got banned. Of course, the next line of St. Paul (verse 16) is "therefore, be imitators of me." Which means, be a father like I am to you, as I have begotten you --- that's why RSV and all the others translate it the way they do.

That verse from Matthew is a pretty clear directive from Jesus not to call earthly men spiritual fathers.

I think God did this because the natural inclination of the human being is to forget about God and focus on ourselves and each other.

He knows we are going to do it anyway, he is just trying to slow us down a bit and remind us who is in charge.

Calling someone father leads to the temptation of following them more than you follow Jesus.

Paul even warned about this impulse:

1 Corinthians 11-15

Quote:My brothers and sisters, some from Chloe’s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas b ”; still another, “I follow Christ.”

Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul? I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15so no one can say that you were baptized in my name.

This is at best a minor doctrinal dispute. Some traditions use the honorific "Father" and some don't. As long as you keep your attention on what is important, and don't get waylaid by titles and honors, this doesn't seem like something that should be a big deal.
01-01-2020 05:51 PM
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Spectrumwalker Offline
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RE: Episcopal Church Alternative
OP, if you wanna chat over message in private about the Anglican Catholic Church you can send me a PM. I'm ex Anglican and know a thing or two about a thing or two. I was baptized as an infant in the Anglican Catholic Church. They put me in a funny looking dress and dunked me in a bird water fountain against my will when I was still spitting out Gerber baby food let alone knowing anything about Jesus. I left a long time ago for a host of reasons. At least when I was in it they were definitely more on the conservative side, but what they believe about the Bible made me shake my head. A church can be conservative but still believe in nonsense just as bad as liberals ones. I'm no fan of Catholocism and it's protestant offshoots or orthodoxy so you may not like what I gotta say if that's the road you're on. But I'll refrain from saying anything further as it may not go over well in this thread and I don't wanna get burned at the stake. I do enjoy it around here. Angel

Dreams are like horses; they run wild on the earth. Catch one and ride it. Throw a leg over and ride it for all its worth.
Psalm 25:7
https://youtu.be/vHVoMCH10Wk
(This post was last modified: 01-02-2020 02:56 AM by Spectrumwalker.)
01-02-2020 02:22 AM
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