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Yes to God, No to Religion?
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mote Offline
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Post: #51
RE: Yes to God, No to Religion?
(02-06-2020 10:29 PM)Athanasius Wrote:  
(02-06-2020 07:12 AM)mote Wrote:  
(02-05-2020 08:37 PM)Athanasius Wrote:  When someone says there are grains of truth in all religions, I say "says who?" How have you decided where to pick and choose to assemble your religion?
This same question can be asked of the founder of every Religion since the dawn of time.

Christianity being no exception.

No, because those who believe the Scriptures believe them 'as is' and that this is revealed word from God. Now of course there are different interpretations of the word, but Christians that that word is God-breathed. It's a body of revealed word. People who piece together 'a little bit of this, little bit of that' are putting together things no one ever claimed went together. It's a sheer act of autonomy. There's a difference.

Except Jesus came along and called into question the Judaic scriptures, picking and choosing what he wanted to discard and keep, despite these scriptures being 'God-breathed'.

Which is exactly what the founder of every religion has done since the dawn of time.

Quote:
Quote:Does that mean there was no TRUTH or salvation for the 100 billion humans born before Jesus?

Christ came "in the fullness of time," but man has always had knowledge of God, even if he saw through the glass darkly. Rom 1:20-21: "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened."
This waffle doesn't even begin to answer my question.
(This post was last modified: 02-07-2020 05:07 AM by mote.)
02-07-2020 04:53 AM
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MichaelWitcoff Offline
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Post: #52
RE: Yes to God, No to Religion?
^ Actually, what Jesus said about the Old Testament is "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished."

Jewish convert to Orthodox Christianity and best-selling author of "On The Masons And Their Lies."
02-07-2020 03:54 PM
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debeguiled Offline
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Post: #53
RE: Yes to God, No to Religion?
That is one of the most paradoxical scriptures. It seems that jot and tittle mean something different to J. than they do to us.

“That sig BTW is a very asinine anti-family anti-parent quote. You live in a country where 40% of children grow up without a biological father, yet somehow “the greatest burden a child must bear is the unlived life of its parents”? Sorry but this is fruity Boomer nonsense.”

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02-07-2020 05:39 PM
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MichaelWitcoff Offline
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Post: #54
RE: Yes to God, No to Religion?
They refer to certain parts of the Hebrew letters.

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02-07-2020 06:05 PM
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Athanasius Offline
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Post: #55
RE: Yes to God, No to Religion?
(02-07-2020 04:53 AM)mote Wrote:  Except Jesus came along and called into question the Judaic scriptures, picking and choosing what he wanted to discard and keep, despite these scriptures being 'God-breathed'.

No, he didn't call them into question. He called extra-Biblical rabbinic traditions into question and explained the spirit and fullness of certain passages in the OT. Thus, adultery is still a sin, but to add to its fulness and true intent even looking upon a woman with lust violated that commandment.

Quote:Does that mean there was no TRUTH or salvation for the 100 billion humans born before Jesus?
Quote:Christ came "in the fullness of time," but man has always had knowledge of God, even if he saw through the glass darkly. Rom 1:20-21: "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened."
Quote:This waffle doesn't even begin to answer my question.

It's not a "waffle." God says in this passage that no man is free from guilt and that man has always had the ability to acknowledge God. Moses and the patriarchs lived long before Jesus directly and yet were saved by faith in God and his promised messiah. As to that proverbial guy on a desert island who never heard the Bible, he is guilty too but may respond to God with such faith that he has. How exactly that plays out, I leave to God as it is not fully explained to us.
(This post was last modified: 02-07-2020 06:47 PM by Athanasius.)
02-07-2020 06:44 PM
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Leonard D Neubache Offline
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Post: #56
RE: Yes to God, No to Religion?
Okay, here's a question to anyone who feels the need to ask "Yes to God, No to Religion?".

On a personal level what exactly are you trying to achieve?

Omnipresent supergalactic one-ness?

God demands of Man responsibility. God demands of Woman vulnerability. These are their curse and blessing alike. Libertianism is to Man as Feminism is to Woman.
02-08-2020 02:24 AM
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Samseau Offline
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Post: #57
RE: Yes to God, No to Religion?
(02-03-2020 11:38 PM)Enhanced Eddie Wrote:  
Quote:Focus on the New Testament

This.

Jesus raised religion to a completely new standard with the Sermon on the Mount, Matthew 5-7.

Anything in the old testament that contradicts the Sermon on the Mount is invalid for us.

I would contend that Jesus does not contradict anything in the old testament, he merely clarifies parts of it or corrects parts that were lost to time. For example, the Eye for the Eye commandment actually being, "Love thy enemy," was something lost to time, and the adultery clause including even lusting after a woman was a clarification.

(02-05-2020 03:36 AM)RawGod Wrote:  The man who reads a variety of religious texts privately without committing is simply not doing what those texts teach. A private, secret practice of Christianity is directly contradicted by the Bible. So be a humanistic scholar if you like, flipping through the pages with a cup of tea when you feel like it. But that's not being a Christian.

A private, secret practice of Christianity is directly commanded by Christ, so you may want to rethink your position here.

Matthew 6:

Quote:“Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.

2 “So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 3 But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4 so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

Prayer

5 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

Being private and secretive, and doing God's commands solely for the pleasure of God, is a major lesson from Christ.

I reconcile these passages with the ones like "Be a light upon a hill," by concluding that while we are do work as much as we can in private, not to be afraid of going public if there is no other choice.

Contributor at Return of Kings. You can follow me on Gab.
02-08-2020 07:23 AM
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Post: #58
RE: Yes to God, No to Religion?
(02-07-2020 06:05 PM)MichaelWitcoff Wrote:  They refer to certain parts of the Hebrew letters.

I didn't mean literally. I meant something more like, he was using it as a metaphor for something else.

Like this.


(02-08-2020 07:23 AM)Samseau Wrote:  I would contend that Jesus does not contradict anything in the old testament, he merely clarifies parts of it or corrects parts that were lost to time. For example, the Eye for the Eye commandment actually being, "Love thy enemy," was something lost to time, and the adultery clause including even lusting after a woman was a clarification.

Jesus always seemed to say things that people took literally but he meant spiritually, from the heart. Like "born again" or referring to the temple but meaning himself.

I think jot and tittle is a metaphor for the full spirit of commands, and not that we should carry forward Mosaic laws for all things like food etc..

“That sig BTW is a very asinine anti-family anti-parent quote. You live in a country where 40% of children grow up without a biological father, yet somehow “the greatest burden a child must bear is the unlived life of its parents”? Sorry but this is fruity Boomer nonsense.”

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02-08-2020 12:45 PM
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MichaelWitcoff Offline
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Post: #59
RE: Yes to God, No to Religion?
It's definitely one of the more cryptic passages in terms of clear meaning. Usually for these things I go to the Church Fathers and see how they interpreted it. Here's what some of them thought about that verse, Matthew 5:18.

Augustine: "For, if even those things which are added for completion are fulfilled, much more are those things fulfilled which are sent in advance as a commencement. Then, as to what He says, One iota or one tittle shall in nowise pass from the law, nothing else can be understood but a strong expression of perfection, since it is pointed out by means of single letters, among which letters iota is smaller than the others, for it is made by a single stroke; while a tittle is but a particle of some sort at the top of even that. And by these words He shows that in the law all the smallest particulars even are to be carried into effect."

Chromatius: "He fulfilled the law at the time by completing the sacrifices of the law and all the examples prefigured in himself … by accepting a body. Certainly he fulfilled the law at the time he confirmed with evangelical grace the precepts of the law he had given. He proceeds to demonstrate he had come to fulfill the law: “Until heaven and earth pass away, not one iota, not a dot, shall be lost from the law until all is accomplished.” Therefore we know from Christ’s teaching how true and divine is the preaching of the law. The Lord reveals that not a single iota or a dot will be lost."

Jerome: "We are promised a new heaven and a new earth, which the Lord God will make. If new ones are to be created, the old ones will therefore pass away. As for what follows, “Not one iota, not a dot, shall be lost from the law until all is accomplished,” this literally shows that even what is considered least important in the law is full of spiritual sacraments, and it is all summed up in the gospel."

John Chrysostom: "Now what He says is like this: it cannot be that it should remain unaccomplished, but the very least thing therein must needs be fulfilled. Which thing He Himself performed, in that He completed it with all exactness. And here He signifies to us obscurely that the fashion of the whole world is also being changed. Nor did He set it down without purpose, but in order to arouse the hearer, and indicate, that He was with just cause introducing another discipline; if at least the very works of the creation are all to be transformed, and mankind is to be called to another country, and to a higher way of practising how to live."

Theophylact: "The "amen" is an assurance, meaning, "Yes, truly I say unto you." . He indicates here that the world passes away and undergoes a change in form. He is saying, therefore, that while the universe subsists, not the least letter of the law will pass away. Some say that the "jot" [i.e. the Greek letter iota] and the "tittle" [i.e. accent mark] signify the ten commandments of the law; others say that they indicate the Cross, for the iota is the upright beam of the Cross, and the accent, the transverse beam. Christ is saying, therefore, that everything that was spoken concerning the Cross will be fulfilled."

So it seems even the ancient Church had a wide variety of interpretations, but they all had the generally similar meaning that all the "little things" are full of big meaning and importance. I like to use the Catena app for such things, if anyone's curious where I found these. It's a free app where you can click on a verse and, more often than not, patristic commentary from a wide variety of sources will pop up. Very helpful and saves countless hours of poring over texts to find their thoughts on specific verses. Also has a desktop version: https://catenabible.com/

Jewish convert to Orthodox Christianity and best-selling author of "On The Masons And Their Lies."
(This post was last modified: 02-08-2020 03:51 PM by MichaelWitcoff.)
02-08-2020 03:50 PM
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Simeon_Strangelight Offline
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Post: #60
RE: Yes to God, No to Religion?
I understand that people don't feel that they fit a certain religion. You either keep on looking and may consider a smaller path or you go your own way implementing certain parts of certain religions. Though most doing that kind of thing will just drift around on the ocean.

The few higher God-seekers who later turned saints were able to go deep into the higher consciousness sometimes even while staying in the outer religions of Christianity or even Islam. Sure - at times they were espousing ideas so very different, that it would seem like a different religion, but still they remeind true to the outer religion in word and praise.
02-09-2020 05:01 AM
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Post: #61
RE: Yes to God, No to Religion?
Personally I think it's sad that everyone here immediately dismisses everything that doesn't fit their Christian views... I'm more "god fearing" then most devoted Christians I know. Their words are hollow, they don't practice what their scriptures says, hell most even haven't read their scriptures and just baptize their kids without thinking. I've read the bible, I still read it, as like I read other scriptures from other faiths even scriptures that are heretical/apocryphal.

I also gave my godchild a bible and her parents thought I was ridiculing them... I was not, they had her baptized so they should read her the scriptures... I really believe that and I said that to them, still they weren't convinced not sure if they ever opened the book... edit: yes I'm a godfather of a christian child, I went to the church for the baptizing ritual and did like I was a Christian while I've left the church more then a decade ago. I treated everyone and everything with my uppermost respect.

I haven't baptized my own child but if he wants to learn something about Christianity I will show him where he can find what he wants to know. If he ever decides to become a true Christian I will be sad but I will support him in his decision.

Anyway do you really think Jesus would dismiss non-christians like me? HE WOULD NOT!!! He would embrace us with his divine love like he embraced all the sinners he did during his lifetime... Still I don't think I'm a sinner not at all... I'm just someone with a great eagerness to study/learn about spirituality and religion in all it's forms because in my view they are all rays of the light of god. Whatever he/she/it may be...
(This post was last modified: 02-10-2020 02:30 AM by Meliorare93.)
02-10-2020 02:27 AM
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Openears Offline
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Post: #62
RE: Yes to God, No to Religion?
I was raised Lutheran, and our family pastor is a hero of mine. This pastor has been a family friend for over 30 years, giving much and asking little along the way. Recently retired, cancer has taken hold and is quickly stealing his time away. A full life behind him, he still dies young. A athlete, father, husband, pastor, and more his dedication and focus on honorable priorities made his mind and body strong. If anyone can carry the weight of such a disease it's him. I feel most sad for whom he leaves behind, especially his wife. Still, I only feel happy when I think of him, he is one of the few men who really won the game of life. He has lived what he preached, though just a man he surely made mistakes. He is the best example of a christian man I will ever know. His dedication to christian values, and great love for others are what made him special.

I had a conversation with a Catholic man yesterday, and since have found myself asking the OP's same question in a more specific way. He ended our short talk explaining he felt only one absolute truth could be. He told me only his specific religion as a Catholic was the absolute truth. Absolute correctness is a core pillar of his faith, and he said without it everything else could fall into question.

I was left to wonder how has his religion changed in time, and how it may in the future. His religion is experienced by him in a unique way, different even from other Catholics within his own church. So where does correctness stop and start? Can a Lutheran and a Catholic both be right? If that is true, what are the shared beliefs that matter? Would he believe my Lutheran hero is going to hell? Does he just feel spiritually superior as a Catholic, while my Lutheran friend led a far more Christ like life?
(This post was last modified: 02-10-2020 03:58 AM by Openears.)
02-10-2020 03:55 AM
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MichaelWitcoff Offline
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Post: #63
RE: Yes to God, No to Religion?
^ Many Catholics will respond to that question by quoting St. Augustine, who once wrote that "Outside the Church there is no salvation." They present that quote as if St. Augustine were commenting on various groups calling themselves Christian, when in fact he was more likely referring to the difference between his time as a Catholic and his time as a pagan and a very worldly man. The same Saint also wrote, in a different context, that "God hath some whom the Church hath not, and the Church hath some whom God hath not." At the end of the day, no man is the judge of others' souls, and we have no say in what God may or may not do with them in His mercy. Personally I've found at least as many Protestants to accuse others of going to Hell as I have Orthodox or Catholics saying the same. I'm not sure what Roman Catholicism officially teaches on this post-Vatican 2, but as far as I know the Orthodox stance is that we know the sure path to God, even if we don't know what He might do with people outside of that path, so to find that path and reject it is a serious error. We should rely on the known means of salvation rather than assuming He'll have mercy on us for rejecting it and going down a different path instead.

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02-10-2020 04:05 AM
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mote Offline
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Post: #64
RE: Yes to God, No to Religion?
(02-07-2020 06:44 PM)Athanasius Wrote:  It's not a "waffle." God says in this passage that no man is free from guilt and that man has always had the ability to acknowledge God. Moses and the patriarchs lived long before Jesus directly and yet were saved by faith in God and his promised messiah. As to that proverbial guy on a desert island who never heard the Bible, he is guilty too but may respond to God with such faith that he has. How exactly that plays out, I leave to God as it is not fully explained to us.

Their is a huge difference between the bold and the claim(absolute) we are discussing:

Quote:But the TRUTH is in Jesus Christ. Without Him there is no salvation. And that's that.
02-11-2020 07:59 AM
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Post: #65
RE: Yes to God, No to Religion?
(02-07-2020 03:54 PM)MichaelWitcoff Wrote:  ^ Actually, what Jesus said about the Old Testament is "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished."

Yes, I know that passage.
But, I doubt very much Jesus said or meant, as it doesn't make any logical sense against the other things said by Jesus.
If he indeed did say something along those lines, it was probably to avoid playing into the hands of the haters who he knew would accuse him of heresy.

There is marked difference between the 'peace and love' teachings of Jesus and the unforgiving, brutality and vengefulness of the Old Testament.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_c..._the_Bible
02-11-2020 08:08 AM
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Post: #66
RE: Yes to God, No to Religion?
(02-05-2020 12:25 AM)Sherman Wrote:  The Bible actually has several deep verses that should be taken literally and constitute the basis for a lifetime practice of interior work. However, there are very few Christians who take those versus seriously or see them as applying to them, and do this at their own peril.

Here is one of the biggest:

“Judge not, that ye be not judged.”

Judgment is hard to overcome, especially in the West, which tends to be highly judgmental. We make hundreds of judgments throughout the day, and it takes serious effort to reduce judgment and replace it with discernment. It’s a lifetime practice. Judgment is the root cause which opens the door so that the evils of the world (including lust) can get inside you.

A church is an organization that provides concrete structures to explain spiritual truths to everyday people. The sacraments and rituals are pointers to the truth and not the truth. Being a member of a church and going through the motions or taking sacraments doesn’t save you from anything. That would be magic, which Christianity categorically rejects. You have to do the interior work.

This is one of the most misused verses in the Bible. It's a warning against hypocrisy, not against judgement itself. Here's the context.

7 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

Notice Jesus doesn't forbid us from removing the speck from our brothers eye. We should be careful about how we judge others, not stop casting any judgements.

Paul judged the Corinthians by calling them hypocrites, Peter says to judge and reject false teachings (including false teachers), Jesus says that many will come claiming to be Christ but to be not deceived. We would rightly judge anyone claiming to be Christ as a deceiver.

We need to make lots of judgments of others as Christians. What pastors or priests we choose to follow, church to go to, who are in fellowship with, etc. For example, how do we know Joel Osteen is a bad pastor and a bad example to Christians? We judge him.

We are allowed to judge others but we aren't allowed to be hypocrites and should expect to be held to the same standard we hold others.
02-11-2020 11:10 PM
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Sherman Offline
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Post: #67
RE: Yes to God, No to Religion?
(02-11-2020 11:10 PM)PainPositive Wrote:  
(02-05-2020 12:25 AM)Sherman Wrote:  The Bible actually has several deep verses that should be taken literally and constitute the basis for a lifetime practice of interior work. However, there are very few Christians who take those versus seriously or see them as applying to them, and do this at their own peril.

Here is one of the biggest:

“Judge not, that ye be not judged.”

Judgment is hard to overcome, especially in the West, which tends to be highly judgmental. We make hundreds of judgments throughout the day, and it takes serious effort to reduce judgment and replace it with discernment. It’s a lifetime practice. Judgment is the root cause which opens the door so that the evils of the world (including lust) can get inside you.

A church is an organization that provides concrete structures to explain spiritual truths to everyday people. The sacraments and rituals are pointers to the truth and not the truth. Being a member of a church and going through the motions or taking sacraments doesn’t save you from anything. That would be magic, which Christianity categorically rejects. You have to do the interior work.

This is one of the most misused verses in the Bible. It's a warning against hypocrisy, not against judgement itself. Here's the context.

7 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

Notice Jesus doesn't forbid us from removing the speck from our brothers eye. We should be careful about how we judge others, not stop casting any judgements.

Paul judged the Corinthians by calling them hypocrites, Peter says to judge and reject false teachings (including false teachers), Jesus says that many will come claiming to be Christ but to be not deceived. We would rightly judge anyone claiming to be Christ as a deceiver.

We need to make lots of judgments of others as Christians. What pastors or priests we choose to follow, church to go to, who are in fellowship with, etc. For example, how do we know Joel Osteen is a bad pastor and a bad example to Christians? We judge him.

We are allowed to judge others but we aren't allowed to be hypocrites and should expect to be held to the same standard we hold others.

No, it’s about judgment, not hypocrisy. The Bible also says “Beware of False Profits…”. Is this a judgment? Not necessarily. You can discern that someone is a “False Profit” without judging them. Judgment is roughly discernment + condemning, which pulls you into emotionality, which always opens the door for the world to get inside you. Or “be a lamb among the wolves”. Does this require judgment? No. It requires a quite observation of what is happening. You are fully aware of danger, but you are objective, and detached from emotionality. And if you judge, you will also be judged by the same standard you used to judge someone else. That means you will always get a bad deal because your standard is based on limited knowledge whereas God’s standard is based on perfect information. In other words, if you judge – you are playing God - and as a punishment you will be judged by your own lousy standards.

Rico... Sauve....
(This post was last modified: 02-12-2020 12:19 AM by Sherman.)
02-12-2020 12:18 AM
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Post: #68
RE: Yes to God, No to Religion?
Does freewill, alongside variation in life experience, environment, and intellect stand in formation to challenge the correctness of a specific religion? Men of good intention have freewill, and in a complex system can overarching Christian values prove freewill impossible to constrain by one denomination? We find ourselves answering each other with scripture, knowing other men see the truths they tell in the unique light of their personal experience.

Personally I have been spending a lot of time thinking about the Catholic and the Lutheran men I mentioned above. It is within the small details that a great question is found. I know this is a bit nit-picky but it is just something I've failed to work through on my own. Both are good men, and both live their faith.

I have been getting hung up on the concept that one of two truths must be:

1. There is a specific and correct path to salvation, and some men choose the wrong path. These misguided men can live more Christ-like lives, and do more good than some of the men who have chosen "the correct path." We see this concept take shape in the presence of similar, but distinctly different paths. Men with much in common, specifically the shared goal of being good Christians. Though we cannot truly judge other men, we are able to observe them.

Example: I know a Lutheran man who is a hero of mine, and lives a selfless life dedicated to god. He was a pastor, and my family has known him for roughly 30 years, he has proven his character and loving nature over time. I also know a Catholic man, whom I also love, but his beliefs would clash with the Lutheran's despite living a more self-centered life. The Catholic man spends much of his time building his own life for himself, while the Lutheran has lived in service of others.

Both follow Christ, but one may have the wrong beliefs. What if the Lutheran is wrong, but did more good? What if he fails to meet all requirements for salvation the Catholic knows?

2. There are more than one correct paths to salvation, specifically more than one correct denomination. Then what specific things to these paths share that matter to God? Which denominations are acceptable to God? Where does this kind of flexibility begin and end?

Does anyone else see value in this question? I believe this is at root a fault of man, and important to answer. It is a question of faith Vs Religion.
(This post was last modified: 02-12-2020 01:13 AM by Openears.)
02-12-2020 12:36 AM
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Openears Offline
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Post: #69
RE: Yes to God, No to Religion?
^To add greater context, the Lutheran Pastor was married with children during his career. As I understand the Catholic church would not recognize the Lutheran as "within the church" unless he converted to Catholicism. In which case, that lack of celibacy in particular would be forgiven.

Just affirming one way I believe this conflict to be real, not hypothetical.
(This post was last modified: 02-12-2020 02:43 AM by Openears.)
02-12-2020 01:45 AM
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PainPositive Offline
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Post: #70
RE: Yes to God, No to Religion?
(02-12-2020 12:18 AM)Sherman Wrote:  
(02-11-2020 11:10 PM)PainPositive Wrote:  
(02-05-2020 12:25 AM)Sherman Wrote:  The Bible actually has several deep verses that should be taken literally and constitute the basis for a lifetime practice of interior work. However, there are very few Christians who take those versus seriously or see them as applying to them, and do this at their own peril.

Here is one of the biggest:

“Judge not, that ye be not judged.”

Judgment is hard to overcome, especially in the West, which tends to be highly judgmental. We make hundreds of judgments throughout the day, and it takes serious effort to reduce judgment and replace it with discernment. It’s a lifetime practice. Judgment is the root cause which opens the door so that the evils of the world (including lust) can get inside you.

A church is an organization that provides concrete structures to explain spiritual truths to everyday people. The sacraments and rituals are pointers to the truth and not the truth. Being a member of a church and going through the motions or taking sacraments doesn’t save you from anything. That would be magic, which Christianity categorically rejects. You have to do the interior work.

This is one of the most misused verses in the Bible. It's a warning against hypocrisy, not against judgement itself. Here's the context.

7 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

Notice Jesus doesn't forbid us from removing the speck from our brothers eye. We should be careful about how we judge others, not stop casting any judgements.

Paul judged the Corinthians by calling them hypocrites, Peter says to judge and reject false teachings (including false teachers), Jesus says that many will come claiming to be Christ but to be not deceived. We would rightly judge anyone claiming to be Christ as a deceiver.

We need to make lots of judgments of others as Christians. What pastors or priests we choose to follow, church to go to, who are in fellowship with, etc. For example, how do we know Joel Osteen is a bad pastor and a bad example to Christians? We judge him.

We are allowed to judge others but we aren't allowed to be hypocrites and should expect to be held to the same standard we hold others.

No, it’s about judgment, not hypocrisy. The Bible also says “Beware of False Profits…”. Is this a judgment? Not necessarily. You can discern that someone is a “False Profit” without judging them. Judgment is roughly discernment + condemning, which pulls you into emotionality, which always opens the door for the world to get inside you. Or “be a lamb among the wolves”. Does this require judgment? No. It requires a quite observation of what is happening. You are fully aware of danger, but you are objective, and detached from emotionality. And if you judge, you will also be judged by the same standard you used to judge someone else. That means you will always get a bad deal because your standard is based on limited knowledge whereas God’s standard is based on perfect information. In other words, if you judge – you are playing God - and as a punishment you will be judged by your own lousy standards.

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(This post was last modified: 02-12-2020 08:02 AM by PainPositive.)
02-12-2020 07:55 AM
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pitbullowner Offline
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RE: Yes to God, No to Religion?
(02-05-2020 12:25 AM)Sherman Wrote:  The Bible actually has several deep verses that should be taken literally and constitute the basis for a lifetime practice of interior work. However, there are very few Christians who take those versus seriously or see them as applying to them, and do this at their own peril.

Here is one of the biggest:

“Judge not, that ye be not judged.”

Judgment is hard to overcome, especially in the West, which tends to be highly judgmental. We make hundreds of judgments throughout the day, and it takes serious effort to reduce judgment and replace it with discernment. It’s a lifetime practice. Judgment is the root cause which opens the door so that the evils of the world (including lust) can get inside you.

A church is an organization that provides concrete structures to explain spiritual truths to everyday people. The sacraments and rituals are pointers to the truth and not the truth. Being a member of a church and going through the motions or taking sacraments doesn’t save you from anything. That would be magic, which Christianity categorically rejects. You have to do the interior work.

This bible verse is so very constantly taken out of context.

I grew up in an extremely legalistic church of Christ and we had to memorize bible verses. There's always a follow up to that verse that noone ever talks about


Quote: For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and [a]by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.

I can judge all i want, but every measurement of judgement i use , will be judged back at me at the same level of harshness by our father in Heaven . So...if you're not able to have that level of harshness thrown at you, then don't judge that way accordingly.

It's a verse about maturity and being able to take what you are dealt in regards to the affairs of dealing with people.

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(02-15-2020 12:26 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  The reality is that the only thing protecting the degenerates is the government. We talk about "law and order" but that's a trite concept when your government is Lawful-Evil rather than Lawful-Good in order to put it in a blunt albeit nerdy way.
02-12-2020 08:07 AM
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Sherman Offline
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Post: #72
RE: Yes to God, No to Religion?
(02-12-2020 08:07 AM)pitbullowner Wrote:  
(02-05-2020 12:25 AM)Sherman Wrote:  The Bible actually has several deep verses that should be taken literally and constitute the basis for a lifetime practice of interior work. However, there are very few Christians who take those versus seriously or see them as applying to them, and do this at their own peril.

Here is one of the biggest:

“Judge not, that ye be not judged.”

Judgment is hard to overcome, especially in the West, which tends to be highly judgmental. We make hundreds of judgments throughout the day, and it takes serious effort to reduce judgment and replace it with discernment. It’s a lifetime practice. Judgment is the root cause which opens the door so that the evils of the world (including lust) can get inside you.

A church is an organization that provides concrete structures to explain spiritual truths to everyday people. The sacraments and rituals are pointers to the truth and not the truth. Being a member of a church and going through the motions or taking sacraments doesn’t save you from anything. That would be magic, which Christianity categorically rejects. You have to do the interior work.

This bible verse is so very constantly taken out of context.

I grew up in an extremely legalistic church of Christ and we had to memorize bible verses. There's always a follow up to that verse that noone ever talks about


Quote: For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and [a]by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.

I can judge all i want, but every measurement of judgement i use , will be judged back at me at the same level of harshness by our father in Heaven . So...if you're not able to have that level of harshness thrown at you, then don't judge that way accordingly.

It's a verse about maturity and being able to take what you are dealt in regards to the affairs of dealing with people.

The teachings of Jesus are extremely difficult to do, Like not judging or loving your enemy. That is why prideful men twist and manipulate the words so they are more pleasing to the human ego. Every time you judge someone it augments pride. Judgment is a spiritual act. The log in your eye and the speck in the other persons eye – in other words, when you point a finger, 3 are pointing back at you. So, change your own heart first. You achieve nothing by pointing at the other fellow. The more difficult interpretation is the correct interpretation.

Rico... Sauve....
02-12-2020 12:29 PM
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debeguiled Offline
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Post: #73
RE: Yes to God, No to Religion?
(02-11-2020 11:10 PM)PainPositive Wrote:  
(02-05-2020 12:25 AM)Sherman Wrote:  The Bible actually has several deep verses that should be taken literally and constitute the basis for a lifetime practice of interior work. However, there are very few Christians who take those versus seriously or see them as applying to them, and do this at their own peril.

Here is one of the biggest:

“Judge not, that ye be not judged.”

Judgment is hard to overcome, especially in the West, which tends to be highly judgmental. We make hundreds of judgments throughout the day, and it takes serious effort to reduce judgment and replace it with discernment. It’s a lifetime practice. Judgment is the root cause which opens the door so that the evils of the world (including lust) can get inside you.

A church is an organization that provides concrete structures to explain spiritual truths to everyday people. The sacraments and rituals are pointers to the truth and not the truth. Being a member of a church and going through the motions or taking sacraments doesn’t save you from anything. That would be magic, which Christianity categorically rejects. You have to do the interior work.

This is one of the most misused verses in the Bible. It's a warning against hypocrisy, not against judgement itself. Here's the context.

7 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

Notice Jesus doesn't forbid us from removing the speck from our brothers eye. We should be careful about how we judge others, not stop casting any judgements.

Paul judged the Corinthians by calling them hypocrites, Peter says to judge and reject false teachings (including false teachers), Jesus says that many will come claiming to be Christ but to be not deceived. We would rightly judge anyone claiming to be Christ as a deceiver.

We need to make lots of judgments of others as Christians. What pastors or priests we choose to follow, church to go to, who are in fellowship with, etc. For example, how do we know Joel Osteen is a bad pastor and a bad example to Christians? We judge him.

We are allowed to judge others but we aren't allowed to be hypocrites and should expect to be held to the same standard we hold others.

A lot of this confusion could be cleared up if a clear distinction were made between 'judging' and 'assessing.'

Of course we are meant to assess the world around us and act accordingly.

Standing in judgment is something else entirely as it makes inroads into a prideful world view. It is the opposite of 'there but for the grace of God go I.'

Most people who say not to judge have conflated the two words and believe that any considered opinion that isn't one hundred percent positive to be standing in judgment.

You might as well make no distinctions of any kind ever.

“That sig BTW is a very asinine anti-family anti-parent quote. You live in a country where 40% of children grow up without a biological father, yet somehow “the greatest burden a child must bear is the unlived life of its parents”? Sorry but this is fruity Boomer nonsense.”

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02-12-2020 01:00 PM
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Post: #74
RE: Yes to God, No to Religion?
^There’s a lot of good stuff in the Bible and good rules to life by but in the tumultuous modern times we live in, “love your enemy” sounds like some real cuck shit to me. The leftists and (((elites))) want our kind subjugated at best and annihilated at worst. The ISIS jihadists who despise Christians and Western culture aren’t much better. The time to “love your enemy” was a long time ago, if at all. Why show love and mercy to someone who would stomp your existence out in the blink of an eye if given the chance? (Mark Potok and his chart tracking white population decline in the US comes to mind). This is anti-survival. This is one of the tenets of Christianity that I’ve failed to understand, you could say that I’m looking at it from a surface level and not deep enough but it still doesn’t make sense to me. Christianity is going to need another reformation focusing on personal strength and defending itself from nefarious forces if it wants to survive the next several decades. I guess the crusaders, the Inquisition and other Christians of old conveniently forgot about “love your enemy” when they slaughtered heretics and burned witches at the stake.
02-12-2020 01:12 PM
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Openears Offline
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Post: #75
RE: Yes to God, No to Religion?
^ Just a thought.

What if different men with different interpretations both serve God as he intended them to? Is it possible each word in each verse is meant to be most true to us each as individuals? Would God not need both forgiving men, and men of war? This idea would allow the complexities of reality to be accounted for such as, life experience, environment, intellect, etc

Is searching for the one true interpretation assuming his word has a lesser value?
(This post was last modified: 02-12-2020 01:30 PM by Openears.)
02-12-2020 01:23 PM
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