Read The Forum Rules: We have a clear set of rules to keep the forum running smoothly. Click here to review them.

Post Reply 
How do you deal with (not debate with, what's the point) disingenuous people?
Author Message
Vladimir Poontang Offline
Ostrich
****

Posts: 1,929
Joined: Feb 2017
Reputation: 32
Post: #1
How do you deal with (not debate with, what's the point) disingenuous people?
I'm shocked at how far disingenuous, intellectually dishonest people (or lefties, but I repeat myself) will go to avoid conceding or admitting when they're wrong, or having an honest debate. They'll use every trick in the book. There's no point in debating them in terms of trying to change their minds or getting them to see things differently, it's a waste of time, you'll never get anywhere.

But, I wonder if it's possible to put them in a position where they look stupid, and they know they look stupid, and you can sit back and enjoy watching them try to reconcile the contradictions in their arguments. Especially on forums.

That's not how we do things in Russia, comrade.

Inspired Expat - Expat Lifestyle Discussion : https://inspiredexpat.forumotion.com/
Useful Links : http://inspiredentrepreneur.weebly.com/
03-10-2020 04:07 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 5 users Like Vladimir Poontang's post:
Nineteen84, Emancipator, Davidovich, Bitter End, Thriller
kel Offline
Kingfisher
***

Posts: 592
Joined: Dec 2019
Reputation: 2
Post: #2
RE: How do you deal with (not debate with, what's the point) disingenuous people?
I've said elsewhere: shame and mocking. If someone wants a real debate, have it. But, you will be able to discern very quickly people who are arguing from bad faith and are just trying to "win" by muddying the issue. Such a person will not respond to logical argumentation, because determining truth and things we can do to improve the state of the world is not their goal. Power is. So, all you can do is mock and shame them. Go hard. It's sad, it's not rewarding in the way an honest debate is, but you can't turn performative bullshit into an honest debate and proceeding as though it were an honest debate is like playing chess with a chicken who's just pecking at the pieces.

You have to recognize a lost cause for what it is. Your choices are to avoid the frustration all together, or just shame and mock them to make an example of them for others watching.
03-10-2020 04:30 PM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 4 users Like kel's post:
Nineteen84, Emperor Constantine, wannable alpha, Emancipator
Vladimir Poontang Offline
Ostrich
****

Posts: 1,929
Joined: Feb 2017
Reputation: 32
Post: #3
RE: How do you deal with (not debate with, what's the point) disingenuous people?
But how do you do that on a forum where you're vastly outnumbered and where you can get banned easily? My friend wants to know.

I do agree by the way. It's pointless trying to have an honest discussion with some people. They will not be reasoned with.

That's not how we do things in Russia, comrade.

Inspired Expat - Expat Lifestyle Discussion : https://inspiredexpat.forumotion.com/
Useful Links : http://inspiredentrepreneur.weebly.com/
(This post was last modified: 03-10-2020 04:37 PM by Vladimir Poontang.)
03-10-2020 04:36 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
kel Offline
Kingfisher
***

Posts: 592
Joined: Dec 2019
Reputation: 2
Post: #4
RE: How do you deal with (not debate with, what's the point) disingenuous people?
In that situation I don't know what you could do, really. Other than playing dumb. Parrot the party line, but carefully use your phrasing or some offhand fact to "drop a redpill" (ugh) where you can. Restate the official position in such a way that shows the inherent contradiction, but do it such that it sounds like you're earnestly supporting the cause. Pass it off as an honest mistake. You're one of the good guys!

(this only works if you haven't already shown your power level, of course)

Maybe give us a specific example to work through.
03-10-2020 04:49 PM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 1 user Likes kel's post:
Syberpunk
estraudi Offline
Kingfisher
***
Gold Member

Posts: 533
Joined: Aug 2013
Reputation: 4
Post: #5
RE: How do you deal with (not debate with, what's the point) disingenuous people?
Never figured this out myself. I got banned twice off of twitter and it just has not been worth the effort to try to figure out how to get my thoughts out of my head on a medium where the medium and it's user are looking to ban you for any and everything

If anything it makes YOU the outsider. That one person to avoid(digitally speaking).
Clown World For Sure.

I doubt it. Remember that your lower level, millenial leftist isn't good at critical thinking. They're largely like trained dogs who emote in response to programmed cues like the word "racism" and "socialism". Easy_C

"The savage lives within himself while social man lives outside himself and can only live in the opinion of others, so that he seems to receive the feeling of his own existence only from the judgement of others concerning him."--Jean Jacques Rousseau
03-10-2020 04:50 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 2 users Like estraudi's post:
Latan, Thriller
Rush87 Offline
Ostrich
****

Posts: 2,635
Joined: Jun 2014
Reputation: 26
Post: #6
RE: How do you deal with (not debate with, what's the point) disingenuous people?
The moral high ground is a wonderful place of power if you truly have it.

Wanting to make someone look stupid is simply a waste of your time. Deliver your point and move on. You have more important things to do.
(This post was last modified: 03-10-2020 05:22 PM by Rush87.)
03-10-2020 05:19 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Repo Offline
Hummingbird
*****

Posts: 3,420
Joined: Feb 2015
Reputation: 24
Post: #7
RE: How do you deal with (not debate with, what's the point) disingenuous people?
No, there are people like that across the political spectrum, even some on this site. Arguing with them is pointless because they always find a way to twist your words and set up straw man arguments, and bombard you with sources that clearly even they haven’t read. Sometimes you casually skim one of their posts and think they sound like they know what their talking about, but the second they start talking about something that you have true expertise in you realize their completely full of it and just making stuff up. I think part of it is to get an ego boost and feel accomplished, rather than to actually get to the truth.

The best thing you can do is chuckle to yourself when you see their posts, and realize there’s a bunch of us sitting on the sideline also rolling our eyes.
03-10-2020 05:33 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 5 users Like Repo's post:
Syberpunk, gework, Vladimir Poontang, Nineteen84, Emancipator
Easy_C Online
Crow
*****

Posts: 4,804
Joined: Oct 2014
Reputation: 31
Post: #8
RE: How do you deal with (not debate with, what's the point) disingenuous people?




Short answer: you cant personally. The only effective way to do that is with what he calls "organized force". You need to have enough backing on your side going in that the people doing it can be pushed back on so hard that they decide it's not worth it to persist and go home.
03-10-2020 06:01 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 1 user Likes Easy_C's post:
Vladimir Poontang
Easy_C Online
Crow
*****

Posts: 4,804
Joined: Oct 2014
Reputation: 31
Post: #9
RE: How do you deal with (not debate with, what's the point) disingenuous people?
Also relevant.

To both this thread and a thread about a certain other "influencer" who is known for CONSTANTLY doing one of the things in this list by rambling on about his own superior IQ.



03-10-2020 06:03 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
El Chinito loco Offline
Crow
*****
Gold Member

Posts: 4,740
Joined: Aug 2013
Reputation: 73
Post: #10
RE: How do you deal with (not debate with, what's the point) disingenuous people?
(03-10-2020 05:19 PM)Rush87 Wrote:  [align=justify]The moral high ground is a wonderful place of power if you truly have it.

This doesn't work when everyone is delusional and believe they have the moral high ground. This is especially true in online debates. This is why I don't really engage in this sort of thing anymore. It's as you said..a waste of time.

Social media and other large platforms like reddit serve as echo chambers for the most retarded blue pill ideologies imaginable.

Reddit in particular is hilariously stupid.
(This post was last modified: 03-10-2020 06:23 PM by El Chinito loco.)
03-10-2020 06:23 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 2 users Like El Chinito loco's post:
Syberpunk, Neo2
Maurice Ravel Offline
Pigeon

Posts: 22
Joined: Feb 2020
Reputation: 0
Post: #11
RE: How do you deal with (not debate with, what's the point) disingenuous people?
Why do you care?

You can show them the way, but as you said, they won't listen and you can't force them to. I'd say just let it go.
03-10-2020 06:24 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
PapayaTapper Away
Crow
*****
Gold Member

Posts: 5,460
Joined: Mar 2014
Reputation: 153
Post: #12
RE: How do you deal with (not debate with, what's the point) disingenuous people?
Just agree with me all the time and you'll be fine. That way if i change my mind you'll still be right

[Image: im-smart-yo-3686.png]

_______________________________________
- Does She Have The "Happy Gene" ?
-Inversion Therapy
-Let's lead by example


"Leap, and the net will appear". John Burroughs

"The big question is whether you are going to be able to say a hearty yes to your adventure."
Joseph Campbell
03-10-2020 06:33 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Vladimir Poontang Offline
Ostrich
****

Posts: 1,929
Joined: Feb 2017
Reputation: 32
Post: #13
RE: How do you deal with (not debate with, what's the point) disingenuous people?
(03-10-2020 05:33 PM)Repo Wrote:  they always find a way to twist your words and set up straw man arguments

I'm not twisting your words. Why are you saying that? Why?

That's not how we do things in Russia, comrade.

Inspired Expat - Expat Lifestyle Discussion : https://inspiredexpat.forumotion.com/
Useful Links : http://inspiredentrepreneur.weebly.com/
03-10-2020 06:43 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 1 user Likes Vladimir Poontang's post:
Repo
Nineteen84 Offline
Pelican
****
Gold Member

Posts: 1,662
Joined: Apr 2012
Reputation: 6
Post: #14
RE: How do you deal with (not debate with, what's the point) disingenuous people?
(03-10-2020 06:03 PM)Easy_C Wrote:  Also relevant.

To both this thread and a thread about a certain other "influencer" who is known for CONSTANTLY doing one of the things in this list by rambling on about his own superior IQ.




Doesn't work for me. Have you got a fresh link?
03-10-2020 09:08 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
pitbullowner Offline
Kingfisher
***

Posts: 554
Joined: May 2016
Reputation: 4
Post: #15
RE: How do you deal with (not debate with, what's the point) disingenuous people?
Aversion and passive aggressive mockery,....I'm not even that good at being passive aggressive, but when these disingenuous dudes/chicks realize i'm being passive aggressive with them, they nearly get physical. I have the mindset of old school "I'll take you out to the shed and whoop that a**" and they realize it, and cool off...then they say something snide.
I also never give them any personal information or entertain their presence other than a hi/bye type of social interaction. minimize any and all time you get with these people.

Your actions speak louder than your words, son.
-My father, R.I.P.

My Twitter handle
My Telegram Channel


(02-15-2020 12:26 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  The reality is that the only thing protecting the degenerates is the government. We talk about "law and order" but that's a trite concept when your government is Lawful-Evil rather than Lawful-Good in order to put it in a blunt albeit nerdy way.
(This post was last modified: 03-10-2020 09:15 PM by pitbullowner.)
03-10-2020 09:15 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Emperor Constantine Online
Robin
*

Posts: 184
Joined: May 2019
Reputation: 2
Post: #16
RE: How do you deal with (not debate with, what's the point) disingenuous people?
Milo’s advice in Dangerous is to calmly laugh at them and saying “That’s not an argument” when they call you racist/sexist/whatever else.

Vox Day has said that you need to trash argumentative leftists rhetorically, since that’s the only language they understand. Then afterwards, you can explain the dialectic for any smart people who happen to be watching.

By the waters of Babylon, there we sat down and we wept, when we remembered Zion.
03-10-2020 10:16 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 2 users Like Emperor Constantine's post:
gework, Syberpunk
wannable alpha Offline
Sparrow

Posts: 94
Joined: Dec 2016
Reputation: 1
Post: #17
RE: How do you deal with (not debate with, what's the point) disingenuous people?
I have a leftist friend IRL who makes insane arguments. What I have noticed is that making indirect personal attacks is the only thing that will shut him up. I will probably cut him off soon since life is too short to argue with malicious idiots.
03-11-2020 01:56 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 2 users Like wannable alpha's post:
kel, Syberpunk
ScannerLIV Offline
Sparrow

Posts: 105
Joined: Oct 2017
Reputation: 0
Post: #18
RE: How do you deal with (not debate with, what's the point) disingenuous people?
Just sip a whiskey, agree and amplify, then drop a nuke with your blatant counter argument, then watch them become emotional semi physically handicapped retarded and have a laugh

Not recommended with your coworkers

Then have a laugh and be smug about your obviously superior intellectual prowess

The end
03-11-2020 02:17 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Emancipator Offline
Ostrich
****
Gold Member

Posts: 2,694
Joined: Jan 2013
Reputation: 26
Post: #19
RE: How do you deal with (not debate with, what's the point) disingenuous people?
On another online medium?

You make another profile and mock them via agree and amplify. Outflank

Bring in the shitpost brigade.

Mother Nature is a bitch & Father Time has an undefeated record
"If you watch cinderella backwards, its about a woman who learns her place." --Kbell

demographics is destiny
03-11-2020 02:35 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
The Catalyst Offline
Pelican
****

Posts: 1,353
Joined: Sep 2016
Reputation: 6
Post: #20
RE: How do you deal with (not debate with, what's the point) disingenuous people?
I skimread the title and thought it said indigenous people Laugh
03-11-2020 08:20 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 1 user Likes The Catalyst's post:
Vladimir Poontang
Sombro Offline
Ostrich
****

Posts: 2,081
Joined: Dec 2012
Reputation: 18
Post: #21
RE: How do you deal with (not debate with, what's the point) disingenuous people?
Weeding out disingenuous people from your life is a slow but necessary process.

The best frame: The other guy has the burden of persuading you, not the other way around.

Trust me, you'll sleep better with this mindset.
03-11-2020 11:19 AM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 1 user Likes Sombro's post:
gework
gework Offline
Pelican
****
Gold Member

Posts: 1,553
Joined: Apr 2017
Reputation: 78
Post: #22
RE: How do you deal with (not debate with, what's the point) disingenuous people?
People have varying value structures. By and large you'd need to shift the underlying value structure to change their mind. For example a intelligent, resentful minimum wage worker is probably only going to change their ideas about socialism if they set up a successful business or land a demanding job.

Having an investment in what others think leads to ingenuous debate. You have to respect that they make their own mind up. Imagine some commie badgering you to accept the revolution because of X, Y, Z. Don't be that guy. It also suggests the other person is of higher status if it's you actively trying to change their mind. You need to be curious on their position. Ask them why they think that, how they feel about this. This actually give you a lot of ammo in potentially changing their mind. And you'll be surprised how poor people's reasons for their ideas are.

If the other person is being ingenuous to you, remain calm, don't sink to their level of getting angry, trying to force your opinions on them etc. It's better optics for you.

In the thread of the above two, the master is Jesse Lee Peterson:





He is able to very calmly get people into a pickle and reveal things they'd rather hide with simple whys and hows. He is also so laid back and assured in what he's saying that he is able to slip in a lot of really splitting stuff. This is a good one:





Not many people can have someone spill so much close to the bone psychological material with a few sentences. "A child's mother is God."

You need to be able to quickly identify and then be very aware of those who are using emotional manipulation against you. This is a negative feminine or left wing trait, which are harder to identify and combat than explicit or masculine, right wing traits. Things to look out for is if the person makes it uncomfortable to say what you want to say, if they are quick to extrapolate or insert into what you say and if they are quick to think you are bad.

Once you identify such a person you'll find they are sophists who use all manner of dishonest, manipulative and non-arguments against you.

The easiest thing to look out for is sophistry. Use of deciving arugments. Often used as a counter so they can ignore your argument. The counter is usually an attack on you as a person: you're bad or stupid. Some examples

"That's a sweeping statement isn't it."
"You can't just rely on statistics."
"You're not an expert on the subject."
"Even if its true, I don't know why you'd feel the need to say it."
"I know people who would be very upset if they heard you say that."
"Toughen up." , i.e. if you don't like the spread of the far-left you should just shut up and not say anything. But conversely the left are warranted to be very upset and hysterical over their grievances.
"What are we taking away from this? That women are shallow and out of control?"
"Is this an objection to her as an individual or as a woman?"
"You need to realise that." <- Not actual sophistry

Maybe the worst I've heard is:

"Why would you need a counter argument?"

[Image: 3pQWp4HyW7lh_640x360.jpg]

They are able to reel these and others out to anything you say.

For the statement: "Afghans in Finland are 40 times more likely to be prosecuted for sexual offences than Finns." (Finland Police) you can insert any of the above sophist lines verbatim or slightly modified. If you are not on your feet and aware you may not find it easy to respond. Particularly as they are trying to induce you to feel stupid and bad for reporting a fact. So when speaking to such people you need to very consciously process everything they say and take them to task, calmly on their sophistry.

You will find that by calmly pointing out that the sophist is ignoring your argument and instead making attacks on you will likely anger them. I think this is because the left modus is emotional manipulation to induce your submission. The left are not used to loosing this battle and it makes them very angry or unsettled.

The sophist cries out in pain as he hits you.

Quote:People in darkness do not want to come to the light lest they are exposed.
(This post was last modified: 03-11-2020 12:48 PM by gework.)
03-11-2020 12:35 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[-] The following 2 users Like gework's post:
Vladimir Poontang, Thriller
Syberpunk Offline
Pelican
****
Gold Member

Posts: 1,525
Joined: Oct 2017
Reputation: 20
Post: #23
RE: How do you deal with (not debate with, what's the point) disingenuous people?
(03-10-2020 04:49 PM)kel Wrote:  In that situation I don't know what you could do, really. Other than playing dumb. Parrot the party line, but carefully use your phrasing or some offhand fact to "drop a redpill" (ugh) where you can. Restate the official position in such a way that shows the inherent contradiction, but do it such that it sounds like you're earnestly supporting the cause. Pass it off as an honest mistake. You're one of the good guys!

(this only works if you haven't already shown your power level, of course)

Maybe give us a specific example to work through.

Agree and amplify to a ridiculous degree, where you are making yourself laugh, take to its logical extreme.



03-11-2020 12:43 PM
Find all posts by this user Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply 


Forum Jump:


User(s) browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)

Contact Us | RooshV.com | Return to Top | Return to Content | Mobile Version | RSS Syndication