100 Hookers AMA
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Honestly i started this thread after downing half a bottle of Sangiovese, but i love the debate that's occured here and respect everyone who's put forward their views here.
Also glad that this has finally been moved to EE, although i wonder how many serious replies this thread would have gotten if i hadn't drunkenly posted in the Game section in the first place.
On my part, i'm already mentally preparing and saving up for a trip to Thailand, Phillipines, Brazil, Costa Rica...
Also glad that this has finally been moved to EE, although i wonder how many serious replies this thread would have gotten if i hadn't drunkenly posted in the Game section in the first place.
On my part, i'm already mentally preparing and saving up for a trip to Thailand, Phillipines, Brazil, Costa Rica...
How in the hell someone who has zero game can rationalize paying for sex is beyond me.
I've been out at night a ton and a few times run into hooks who have asked me to pay. My immediate reaction is always visceral.
Being asked to pay for sex is basically like the girl telling you "you could never have sex with someone like me". I laugh in her face and tell her you're wasting my time.
There is certainly something to be said for having the ability to land chicks on your own as fisto is explaining and defending over and over again. It's true, if you really can't do it yourself you're basically a dork ass loser.
The caveat is when you're 60+ old and grey and don't want to bang a 40 year old chick. That's where IMHO it becomes fuzzy.
That's the only time you can really rationalize paying, when fisto is 80 I would not knock him one bit for paying to smash a 25 year old.
On the flip side a guy who is 50 and under with his shit together has no reason to be paying, there are too many countries, too many options, were a successful 50 y/o is held in high esteem.
I've been out at night a ton and a few times run into hooks who have asked me to pay. My immediate reaction is always visceral.
Being asked to pay for sex is basically like the girl telling you "you could never have sex with someone like me". I laugh in her face and tell her you're wasting my time.
There is certainly something to be said for having the ability to land chicks on your own as fisto is explaining and defending over and over again. It's true, if you really can't do it yourself you're basically a dork ass loser.
The caveat is when you're 60+ old and grey and don't want to bang a 40 year old chick. That's where IMHO it becomes fuzzy.
That's the only time you can really rationalize paying, when fisto is 80 I would not knock him one bit for paying to smash a 25 year old.
On the flip side a guy who is 50 and under with his shit together has no reason to be paying, there are too many countries, too many options, were a successful 50 y/o is held in high esteem.
Why not? I'm glad you asked. Because growing food or buying it doesn't have anything to do with your inner game or social skills.
We are talking about a social development or backsliding and you are talking about botany.
I am speaking from the perspective that you are either taking a step forward in your game or a step backward. I believe paying for sex is a step backward.
And I think we can all agree, men that are wealthy resent women who want them just for their money (golddiggers) because they feel they are not appreciated for the man they are.
Your game = the man you are
your money = any man with money
We are talking about a social development or backsliding and you are talking about botany.
I am speaking from the perspective that you are either taking a step forward in your game or a step backward. I believe paying for sex is a step backward.
And I think we can all agree, men that are wealthy resent women who want them just for their money (golddiggers) because they feel they are not appreciated for the man they are.
Your game = the man you are
your money = any man with money
What about a split ratio with this kind of thing? 50/50? 70/30?
I can completely relate to both the OP and his way of thinking as well as seeing where Fisto is coming from.
Growing up in Canada I only ever had about 20 notches, all of them through girlfriends/ONS/online game.
My first experience with P4P was actually in the Dominican in 2011. I was partying at Mangu one night, was approached by what I would consider an easy 9, the offer was laid out, I was horny, I took it.
I spent a year living in Bangkok and I went with probably an 80/20 split there. I did a lot of online pipelining with TF and day game at the Mall Bang Kapi and got most of my bangs from there, as well as shoring quite a bit (usually when out solo) but sometimes you're just out with a group of buddies at Soi Cowboy/Nana getting trashed, one guy barfines one, then another, and then you find yourself just dropping the cash, taking a hottie to smash. There's no mistaking it for genuine affection or using my game to pull, it's a simple transaction, and I'm content to leave it at that. I get my nut, she leaves, my life goes on.
Am I most proud of my bangs that came from reading forums like this one and developing my own social skills? Absolutely 100%.
Do I feel any shame that I've engaged in a P4P scenario on occasion? Absolutely not 100%.
I can completely relate to both the OP and his way of thinking as well as seeing where Fisto is coming from.
Growing up in Canada I only ever had about 20 notches, all of them through girlfriends/ONS/online game.
My first experience with P4P was actually in the Dominican in 2011. I was partying at Mangu one night, was approached by what I would consider an easy 9, the offer was laid out, I was horny, I took it.
I spent a year living in Bangkok and I went with probably an 80/20 split there. I did a lot of online pipelining with TF and day game at the Mall Bang Kapi and got most of my bangs from there, as well as shoring quite a bit (usually when out solo) but sometimes you're just out with a group of buddies at Soi Cowboy/Nana getting trashed, one guy barfines one, then another, and then you find yourself just dropping the cash, taking a hottie to smash. There's no mistaking it for genuine affection or using my game to pull, it's a simple transaction, and I'm content to leave it at that. I get my nut, she leaves, my life goes on.
Am I most proud of my bangs that came from reading forums like this one and developing my own social skills? Absolutely 100%.
Do I feel any shame that I've engaged in a P4P scenario on occasion? Absolutely not 100%.
Sargon of Akkad
Kingfisher
Fisto said:
Please, both involve the use of skill as opposed to payment. The above differentiation doesn't hold water. This is not difficult to understand.
We are talking about gaining something through the use of skill and hard work as opposed to gaining something the easy way through direct payment. In both cases, the former (skill and hard work) is better and more gratifying, in neither case are the two mutually exclusive. In neither case does the latter assume an inability to do the former.
1.) The guy in question doesn't seem to care about learning game, but rather mere physical gratification. If that's all he's after, then so be it.
2.) You have yet to establish why paying for sex must automatically mean you can't get it any other way, or learn game simultaneously. And please don't start going on about 'self esteem' again. There is no such thing as an objective concept of shame.
Again, it's neither my nor your place to judge someone who finds paying for sex to be sufficient gratification.
Anything else and you're simply rationalizing a way to apply your own subjective and arbitrary concepts of shame to others. If they're getting what they want out of it and no one's harmed, why should you or I care?
Acute Angle
Woodpecker
Let's try this analogy: a guy has to move a load of bags of sand from one place to another. He can lift the bags and carry them, but it is not without effort. It will do him good to do it manually - make him stronger, fitter and possibly more attractive to women. It will also make him sweaty, tired and take longer than if he hired a forklift truck. Should he feel bad for hiring the forklift? Maybe.
But what if he'd already spent months shifting bags of sand? He'd already proved to himself that he could do it and got most of the physical and mental benefits. One day he's in a rush to do something else, but he has to shift those bags. So he takes a shortcut and hires a forklift. He won't do it every day, but today the forklift solution suits him. Should he think less of himself?
I'd say it depends how much ego he has invested in being the strong guy.
But what if he'd already spent months shifting bags of sand? He'd already proved to himself that he could do it and got most of the physical and mental benefits. One day he's in a rush to do something else, but he has to shift those bags. So he takes a shortcut and hires a forklift. He won't do it every day, but today the forklift solution suits him. Should he think less of himself?
I'd say it depends how much ego he has invested in being the strong guy.
Sargon - You don't get it. That's cool.
AA - Does the sandbag treat you like a chump for paying for sex? Does the sandbag act like it's enjoying you carrying it so you'll get done sooner?
What I'm saying is, all these alternative examples are not representative of dynamic of paying a woman to enter her body.
Vicious made the argument that I'm paying with my flattery or something when I bang a hooker for free. Well, in some ways it's validating the level of game you have because a woman that get's paid for sex is sleeping with you and it effects her livelihood in a negative way.
Sargon wants to talk about shame. Whatever, I won't go that far as to say "you should feel ashamed". I don't think that. I think that if you are working on yourself, working on getting better, and then you have to resort to paying for sex (again, there are no other representative examples of this dynamic) You are backsliding.
Guys like sargon like to act like they are robots on the internet the same way women like to pretend they can think rationally when asked what kind of guy they want. In both cases reality is different from theory.
Go out at night and at the after striking out, go get a hooker and tell me nothings hurt.
If we are holding ourselves to a higher standard, I see this as being a higher standard.
If you don't share my views, that's cool, but when I'm walking along bangkok and I see chumps paying girls that I fuck for free, I do look down on them.
Maybe that's a thought experiment some of you can do; Imagine walking down the street and you see a hooker that's in love with you and she's with some guy who acts like he's the shit for having a sexy girl. She glances over at you and rolls her eyes and you share this little smile because you know she's taking him for everything she can while she fucked you for free and maybe even paid for your cab home.
AA - Does the sandbag treat you like a chump for paying for sex? Does the sandbag act like it's enjoying you carrying it so you'll get done sooner?
What I'm saying is, all these alternative examples are not representative of dynamic of paying a woman to enter her body.
Vicious made the argument that I'm paying with my flattery or something when I bang a hooker for free. Well, in some ways it's validating the level of game you have because a woman that get's paid for sex is sleeping with you and it effects her livelihood in a negative way.
Sargon wants to talk about shame. Whatever, I won't go that far as to say "you should feel ashamed". I don't think that. I think that if you are working on yourself, working on getting better, and then you have to resort to paying for sex (again, there are no other representative examples of this dynamic) You are backsliding.
Guys like sargon like to act like they are robots on the internet the same way women like to pretend they can think rationally when asked what kind of guy they want. In both cases reality is different from theory.
Go out at night and at the after striking out, go get a hooker and tell me nothings hurt.
If we are holding ourselves to a higher standard, I see this as being a higher standard.
If you don't share my views, that's cool, but when I'm walking along bangkok and I see chumps paying girls that I fuck for free, I do look down on them.
Maybe that's a thought experiment some of you can do; Imagine walking down the street and you see a hooker that's in love with you and she's with some guy who acts like he's the shit for having a sexy girl. She glances over at you and rolls her eyes and you share this little smile because you know she's taking him for everything she can while she fucked you for free and maybe even paid for your cab home.
If a grown ass man did what needed doing to travel the world on his own dime then what the fuck should anybody care about what he does with his dick or money???If I was wealthy I wouldnt think twice about paying some bitch to pretend to love me for a night.I'd fuck porn starlets and A-List actresses exclusively.And quiet as kept there are lots of hollywood actress types selling pussy and fucking for favors.Whatever needs doing to get a nut off with out jackin' off or raping a broad I'm down!!!
Acute Angle
Woodpecker
Hmm, lots of assumptions there, Fisto. Every hooker sees her clients as chumps? No doubt some of them are. But ALL of them? They're paying her bills, helping her raise her kids maybe (or paying for the next heroin fix) - maybe some are valued clients that she treats with respect. Now, one man's hundred dollar bill is as good as anyone else's of course. Only a fool would see it otherwise. No man should think he's the shit when he's with a whore. But he wanted to fuck, just needed the physical release. He hands over the money and he can fuck. Wham, bam, done. It's not a challenge to his gaming skills, for sure, but that wasn't the aim of the day. The aim was to fuck a decent-looking woman with minimal effort.
Who cares what the sandbag thinks? Should you care? (Legit question - I haven't got a thought-out answer yet.)
Now, there are skills to be learned in handling sandbags. The correct grip, the balance, the swing onto the shoulder. Done well, it feels good (I used to throw peat bags around in a factory in my gap year, waaaay back). I don't seek to minimise the skills required or the benefits obtained by the lifter. But some days he just wants those fucking bags over there and not here and he doesn't have the time to be poetic about it. The forklift is expensive and noisy and belches fumes but it gets the job done quick and easy.
As for the sandbag pretending to enjoy it, haha, there the analogy breaks down. But do you seriously think that only whores pretend to enjoy it so you cum sooner? Some shores will do that. Some 'good' girls will do that sometimes. Some wives will do that regularly. And what part of you cares? Does your dick care? No, your ego cares.
No one wants to feel a chump, no one wants to feel like they've been taken. But the value a person extracts from a sexual transaction depends on the values, priorities and preconceptions that they bring into it, not just on the attitude of the other party.
Maybe the guy in your little vignette fully knows that he's being taken. But he plays along because it's more fun to enter into the illusion. Maybe he spent the time that you were shoring the same girl creating options plays and making a small fortune that will enable him to reach the next strata of society? No one knows. Some guys are idiots, for sure, but it's arrogance to assume that you've got their number just by looking at them for 5 seconds in the street.
Who cares what the sandbag thinks? Should you care? (Legit question - I haven't got a thought-out answer yet.)
Now, there are skills to be learned in handling sandbags. The correct grip, the balance, the swing onto the shoulder. Done well, it feels good (I used to throw peat bags around in a factory in my gap year, waaaay back). I don't seek to minimise the skills required or the benefits obtained by the lifter. But some days he just wants those fucking bags over there and not here and he doesn't have the time to be poetic about it. The forklift is expensive and noisy and belches fumes but it gets the job done quick and easy.
As for the sandbag pretending to enjoy it, haha, there the analogy breaks down. But do you seriously think that only whores pretend to enjoy it so you cum sooner? Some shores will do that. Some 'good' girls will do that sometimes. Some wives will do that regularly. And what part of you cares? Does your dick care? No, your ego cares.
No one wants to feel a chump, no one wants to feel like they've been taken. But the value a person extracts from a sexual transaction depends on the values, priorities and preconceptions that they bring into it, not just on the attitude of the other party.
Maybe the guy in your little vignette fully knows that he's being taken. But he plays along because it's more fun to enter into the illusion. Maybe he spent the time that you were shoring the same girl creating options plays and making a small fortune that will enable him to reach the next strata of society? No one knows. Some guys are idiots, for sure, but it's arrogance to assume that you've got their number just by looking at them for 5 seconds in the street.
I get the sandbags, I used to throw bails of hay. Lots of technique involved. It can be very rewarding work.
But my point in breaking down the analogy is that the sandbag doesn't care.
And let's look at the nature of women, when you walk into a strip club, do you really think those girls see you as anything more than a dollar sign? Sure I've banged strippers, but those girls are the exception not the rule.
These hookers, I guess you should experience them yourself, they look at sex like it's work.
And yes, just like strippers think you are a chump for paying for a lap dance, hookers think the same thing, As a rule, not as the exception.
Contrast that with having conversations about guys who pay for sex with hookers after you've shored them. Laying there, them telling you they meet good looking guys and they think it's so weird that these men need to pay for sex.
But my point in breaking down the analogy is that the sandbag doesn't care.
And let's look at the nature of women, when you walk into a strip club, do you really think those girls see you as anything more than a dollar sign? Sure I've banged strippers, but those girls are the exception not the rule.
These hookers, I guess you should experience them yourself, they look at sex like it's work.
And yes, just like strippers think you are a chump for paying for a lap dance, hookers think the same thing, As a rule, not as the exception.
Contrast that with having conversations about guys who pay for sex with hookers after you've shored them. Laying there, them telling you they meet good looking guys and they think it's so weird that these men need to pay for sex.
Acute Angle
Woodpecker
I can't understand why guys go to strip clubs and slip hard-earned money into the g-strings of high-mileage 7s. Not my thing at all. But if it rings their bell, who am I to look down upon them?
For a whore, sex is work. I understand. It's just work. A sexual service for money. It isn't a plea for understanding, or an attempt to bolster her ego, or a trap to get me to marry her. I can see why some guys value that directness and simplicity.
I don't know why a young, good-looking guy would pay for sex - I never did. But an older guy who has a lot on his plate, has fucked a ton of women for free and is occasionally weary of the seduction game - well, I completely understand it.
Life has many paths. None of us will walk them all. If I find myself strongly judging another's path I try to see why it gets to me so much. And usually I learn something.
I'm not advocating p4p for anyone - it's about as meaningful and rewarding as taking a shit. But I don't think we should universally shame guys for indulging in it. You want a shit, take a shit - who cares?
For a whore, sex is work. I understand. It's just work. A sexual service for money. It isn't a plea for understanding, or an attempt to bolster her ego, or a trap to get me to marry her. I can see why some guys value that directness and simplicity.
I don't know why a young, good-looking guy would pay for sex - I never did. But an older guy who has a lot on his plate, has fucked a ton of women for free and is occasionally weary of the seduction game - well, I completely understand it.
Life has many paths. None of us will walk them all. If I find myself strongly judging another's path I try to see why it gets to me so much. And usually I learn something.
I'm not advocating p4p for anyone - it's about as meaningful and rewarding as taking a shit. But I don't think we should universally shame guys for indulging in it. You want a shit, take a shit - who cares?
Confusing discussion. P4P once in a while (i.e. very rarely) is not an issue. But to do it all the time? If it's just a matter of money, why the hell even bother working out, eating well, having good logistics, daygame, night game...it's all pointless if I can just pick up a phone and call an 8 over. You can have a new one every week or every day, depending on your budget. Are people suggesting that the feeling you get from seducing a woman is equivalent to banging a girl you straight up paid for? That's what it's about, as feminist as it may sound, the feeling. If it's all the same, I can go to Phils/Thailand and pay for 96 girls and tell everyone I'm as good as Fisto, but no one here would believe that, nor should they.
If the argument is about pure P4P vs. not P4P, then I don't even see an argument (if you are otherwise physically able to do so, meaning you have time, etc.).
Another way to look at it: you bang a girl P4P....do you text a +1 to your friend?
If the argument is about pure P4P vs. not P4P, then I don't even see an argument (if you are otherwise physically able to do so, meaning you have time, etc.).
Another way to look at it: you bang a girl P4P....do you text a +1 to your friend?
@Fisto A man that pays for pussy simply values his time more. I think you're complicating it with the whole "low self esteem" bullshit.
I believe you can outsource sex much like anything. And a person with this belief and mindset is the opposite of putting pussy on a pedestal, this mindset in fact devalues pussy. Outsourcing doesn't just save money but as others have mentioned, time, forgoing b.s., dangerous places/situations you don't want to be in, faking interest in b.s. conversations, and a lot of other crap that comes with gaming chicks. And when you're bargaining $20 off the asking price, id say that demonstrates way more self assurance than you can reasonably get gaming a chick. After all, if you're worth was higher than hers, she would be gaming you and not the other way around.
According to Fisto's argument, buying girls drinks to get her drunk is a sign of low self worth. Same thing with spending $10 cover to get into a bar. Do you really like that bar that much? Do you really like hopping from club to club opening up new tabs and paying new covers? Maybe Fisto never spends $$ on women, I've seen very few men pull that off regularly. I admit i know of 2 guys with awesome game that rarely spend a dime on women but actually have the roles are reversed, but even they know its not something they can and will do indefinitely. They spend significantly less than the average person and for far better rewards. But its also at the sacrifice of much time, putting up with bullshit and psychologically damaged women, game, lying, etc.
I believe you can outsource sex much like anything. And a person with this belief and mindset is the opposite of putting pussy on a pedestal, this mindset in fact devalues pussy. Outsourcing doesn't just save money but as others have mentioned, time, forgoing b.s., dangerous places/situations you don't want to be in, faking interest in b.s. conversations, and a lot of other crap that comes with gaming chicks. And when you're bargaining $20 off the asking price, id say that demonstrates way more self assurance than you can reasonably get gaming a chick. After all, if you're worth was higher than hers, she would be gaming you and not the other way around.
According to Fisto's argument, buying girls drinks to get her drunk is a sign of low self worth. Same thing with spending $10 cover to get into a bar. Do you really like that bar that much? Do you really like hopping from club to club opening up new tabs and paying new covers? Maybe Fisto never spends $$ on women, I've seen very few men pull that off regularly. I admit i know of 2 guys with awesome game that rarely spend a dime on women but actually have the roles are reversed, but even they know its not something they can and will do indefinitely. They spend significantly less than the average person and for far better rewards. But its also at the sacrifice of much time, putting up with bullshit and psychologically damaged women, game, lying, etc.
Sargon of Akkad
Kingfisher
Menace said:
I don't think anyone's arguing that P4P is equally satisfying as non-P4P, or that it's 'all the same'. Of course it's not the same, just that if certain guys feel they're getting their needs sufficiently met by it, that's their decision and I'm not going to judge them for it.
Sargon of Akkad
Kingfisher
Fisto said:
I really could say the exact same thing about you.
Who cares? The people who pay for sex obviously don't.
After this kind of comment you try to tell me I'm the one who doesn't get it? There are plenty of representatives of this dynamic, you're just shoehorning some made-up idealistic notions into it. I understand what you mean about the woman wanting it. That's why I'm not into prostitutes, I can't enjoy sex with a woman without a sense of mutual lust.
However, what you don't seem to understand is that this feeling is neither objective nor universal. The fact that I'm not into P4P has more to do with the fact that it doesn't meet my own personal needs, but I'm not going to apply my own personal needs to others.
I tried it once several years ago. Not because I couldn't get it any other way, but because of oportunity and curiosity (e.g. would it be different that with a normal girl?, etc.). Didn't enjoy it; don't plan on doing it again, but did I feel "a part of myself die on the inside"? Did I feel pain from some irrevocable emptiness in the place that used to be my soul or some similar nonsense? Of course not. Tried it once, wasn't for me, moved on.
If somebody else likes that, however, it's not my concern to judge them.
I'll grant you that a guy who is paying for sex for no other reason that he can't get laid the other way, and additionally deludes himself into thinking the whores he's paying WANT it...is indeed a loser.
However, if he's doing it just because he wants to have fun and indulge in physical pleasure, doesn't care about game, and he fully understands the purely transactional nature of it, then I really don't care either way what he's doing. Is he someone I'd look up to? No. Is what he's doing equally satisfying as what I'm doing? Probably not. But am I going to judge him for it? Hell no.
Again, these are your subjective, made up standards that you're applying to other people who apparantly don't care about them.
Again, these are pointless hypothetical scenarios. I'd only call that guy a loser if he really believes she's into him (for something other than his money). If he knows it's bullshit but doesn't care, why should you or I?
A while back, Tariq Nasheed interviewed a similar dude who wrote a book called "Best Bang for Your Buck", and presented a very good argument (in contrast to Tariq's "Pimp" stance)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kB_I30btzFE
Here's his book:
http://www.amazon.com/Getting-ultimate-guide-traveling-ebook/dp/B00737IBFE/ref=pd_sxp_f_pt
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kB_I30btzFE
Here's his book:
http://www.amazon.com/Getting-ultimate-guide-traveling-ebook/dp/B00737IBFE/ref=pd_sxp_f_pt
Oh I've just seen that sargon replied. There is an objective standard, ALMOST ANYONE can pay for sex, not everyone can get laid on skill.
The fat slob with bacne on the computer can pay for sex. When you pay for sex you're just as good as him. And that hurts your inner game.
The fat slob with bacne on the computer can pay for sex. When you pay for sex you're just as good as him. And that hurts your inner game.
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