18 y/o girl in my church

get2choppaaa

Hummingbird
Orthodox
My father was 42 when he married my mother, who was 19 at the time. Admittedly, they are from the East and the marriage was arranged after my father asked her father. But it worked as in: the marriage lasted. They both settled in the West.

I think a 20 year age gap is considerably more difficult to pull off in the West not least because of the stigma attached, a stigma incidentally that doesn't attach to all kinds of degeneracy such as homosexuality and scantily clad barely legal girls walking the streets during summer. Funny that.

Not directed at post in quote...but general point:

Forgive me, but one point to make is:

Forget your father and his situation. Our parents world isn't our world at all.

A marriage now is not what it was 30 years ago societally...let alone legally.

A good question for people giving marriage advice online is:

are you married? How long? What's your age range? 1-5, 5, 10, 15 or 20 years in age difference?

And more importantly, how well off is the person giving advice? There folks on here who are married, who give sound advice... Then there is other folks who have no idea what the heck they are talking about who give advice like they know their ass from their elbow.... please don't listen to them.

Ask your priest first and foremost.

Me being divorced and remarried with 5 kids and making neay 200k a year in a very very very high stress job with an Uber subservient wife is much different than the me 3 years ago making 95k dating hot girls who out their career above ",us," and me still responsible for 2 kids. I have the life now most people on the forum want to say they have but won't for because it's too hard, and no body knows how to treat a woman such that they would give up their "me" self...

...as led zeppelin said: lots of people talk...but few of them know....

Listen... I'm a divorced - remarried guy. 5 kids, high six figure earnings guy... I've been in the military, seen economic ups and downs and know how the game works... Women can be your biggest boon and reason to strive (assuming God is no 1) or the biggest reason you're killing yourself to live...aka...die...

There are lots of good women in the west still... Many folks say here's not any good women in the west... But none are actively seeking there hypothetical women in their life by virtue or action. Maybe 1 in 300 men on this forum are congruent with the man they'd like to be

I know this because I see it in church every weekend. Weak men afraid of talking to women because they're scared of what a real chaste woman might do to their life and they are afraid of what that responsibility might do to them....

But again what do i know... Me and my old lady ate converts.....

Lots of women outside of orthodoxy that need strong men to guide them.

Most men are weak... And that i triggered the posers on this forum.

You can be a wretched chief sinner like myself... And still find The Way....but the women who want to be lead by you won't wait long.
 
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AHaytch

Sparrow
Non-Christian
Not directed at post in quote...but general point:

Forgive me, but one point to make is:

Forget your father and his situation. Our parents world isn't our world at all.

A marriage now is not what it was 30 years ago societally...let alone legally.

A good question for people giving marriage advice online is:

are you married? How long? What's your age range? 1-5, 5, 10, 15 or 20 years in age difference?

And more importantly, how well off is the person giving advice? There folks on here who are married, who give sound advice... Then there is other folks who have no idea what the heck they are talking about who give advice like they know their ass from their elbow.... please don't listen to them.

Ask your priest first and foremost.

Me being divorced and remarried with 5 kids and making neay 200k a year in a very very very high stress job with an Uber subservient wife is much different than the me 3 years ago making 95k dating hot girls who out their career above ",us," and me still responsible for 2 kids. I have the life now most people on the forum want to say they have but won't for because it's too hard, and no body knows how to treat a woman such that they would give up their "me" self...

...as led zeppelin said: lots of people talk...but few of them know....

Listen... I'm a divorced - remarried guy. 5 kids, high six figure earnings guy... I've been in the military, seen economic ups and downs and know how the game works... Women can be your biggest boon and reason to strive (assuming God is no 1) or the biggest reason you're killing yourself to live...aka...die...

There are lots of good women in the west still... Many folks say here's not any good women in the west... But none are actively seeking there hypothetical women in their life by virtue or action. Maybe 1 in 300 men on this forum are congruent with the man they'd like to be

I know this because I see it in church every weekend. Weak men afraid of talking to women because they're scared of what a real chaste woman might do to their life and they are afraid of what that responsibility might do to them....

But again what do i know... Me and my old lady ate converts.....

Lots of women outside of orthodoxy that need strong men to guide them.

Most men are weak... And that i clicked the posers on this forum.

You can be a wretched chief sinner like myself... And still find The Way....but the women who want to be lead by you won't wait long.

The OP was asking for advice regards an age gap; I gave him an anecdote here rather than advice. I'm certainly not in a position (currently) to expense advice.

However I do agree with you regards leading: if you cannot lead a woman you have little to no chance sustaining a relationship. The ability to lead becomes even more paramount the more pronounced an age gap.
 

TheosisSeeker

Robin
Orthodox Catechumen
I definitely think this forum is home to both excellent and shockingly bad advice. I think it's useful to see what the person giving you the sage advice you really wanted to hear posts in other threads and on other topics, before assuming you've received wise counsel.

It should ideally go farther than this. Yes, this is a forum that seems to have had a negative reputation in previous years. It is natural to fear 'outing' so to speak, as you don't know who the other person is, but to build a higher trust community, people need to be vetted. That's why, while this forum is great, real life relationships are key.
 

DavidKnight

Sparrow
Catholic
I definitely agree there are some trad fantasy projections in certain responses here which may warrant skepticism. While I can't speak to marriage, I recently dated a zoomer chick about a decade younger than me from a relatively conservative culture. The harsh truth is, her relative religiosity and the man's leadership will only go so far. Modern Christian (conservative) women will usually take their cues from the following influences in this order:

1. Social media, especially viral articles warning of "red flags" in men. These will range from the guy being too attached/kind/ready for marriage to him acting aggressive or excessively masculine. Holding her accountable for her own words and actions is a red flag to many such authors.
2. Close friends, who will be suspicious of you and probably convince her you are trying to take advantage of her youth/naivety.
3. Male friends or co-workers offering "supportive" advice as they attempt to replace you as her man.
4. You.
5. Her parents.

Not saying it's impossible, but I would talk to the girl and get a sense of whether she is an old soul or not. Occasionally women are different, but for the most part they plug into social media and conform, regardless of how outwardly religious they appear to be.
 

fireshark

Kingfisher
Other Christian
When I was 29 I was in a 2 year, multi-national LTR with a 19 year old college girl. There's pros and cons to a much younger woman. For me, the cons ultimately outweighed the pros, but never forget that every person is different, and while age is certainly not meaningless, it's not everything, either.

I see similarities with the girl I was with and the girl you are talking about here. She came from a supportive, structured, somewhat conservative family, and she was also showing rebellious or "wrong crowd" tendencies, and going with me was possibly part of that acting out. In the end we both grew out of it, but it was me who ended it when I got to know her well enough to realize that she simply wasn't the right woman for me. And yes, her youthfulness certainly clouded my judgement for awhile.
 

prisonplanet

Robin
Other Christian
The girl and her parents weren't in church again today. It seems to me, from their very sporadic attendance, as well as what I've picked up talking to them, that they are more "conservative" than "Christian." Conservative without Christ means almost nothing. I think my initial gut instinct is probably right - she's headed down a bad (albeit typical) path, and her parents realize that nothing short of her marrying a strong, mature Christian man who can take charge of her can deter it. They are right. The question is, do you want the job? I don't.

Using the team analogy, the man is the head of a household. When a man is single, while God should be team owner and manager, the man is team leader/star player. His wife should be a great, complimentary #2. A girl in her late teens/early 20s is like building your team using the draft rather than free agency (trading, I suppose, would be a sin, but analogies can't get too deep). Using the draft, you get raw prospects. You could hit big, or get a dud. This girl has all the makings of a bust. It's more her parents fault than hers, but that's life. This thread has been helpful to get me thinking if nothing else.

I would say that there is fair bit of Black Pill viewpoints in here. Several guys talked about all the potential problems, including her influences. That's all fair, although unlike the sports analogy, I think we should not leave God out of the discussion. While I don't want the job (i.e, I think I would rather wait for a gem to open up in free agency), with Christ all things are possible. It's not X's and O's with faith. There's plenty of room for miracles. As for her greatest influences, right now it's her parents. Ideally, it should be Jesus, and I will pray for that to happen.

Next should be her future husband. It would very likely have to be an older - I think much older - Christian male who takes total charge. The 18 y/o guy in my church who likes her, for example, would make a close friend to her, but that is not what she needs. Your team starts with two players. You want to really know yourself, so you know what you need in your #2. I don't need a draft pick, especially one with such question marks. Why? I am simply not developed enough, not strong enough. But that doesn't mean there isn't a man out there who fits the bill. Age is one factor, but there are many. I don't know what a complimentary #2 would look like, but I just gotta handle my business and trust that God, team owner and GM, will find the right one for me.
 

Optimus Princeps

Woodpecker
Orthodox Catechumen
When I was 29 I was in a 2 year, multi-national LTR with a 19 year old college girl. There's pros and cons to a much younger woman. For me, the cons ultimately outweighed the pros, but never forget that every person is different, and while age is certainly not meaningless, it's not everything, either.

I see similarities with the girl I was with and the girl you are talking about here. She came from a supportive, structured, somewhat conservative family, and she was also showing rebellious or "wrong crowd" tendencies, and going with me was possibly part of that acting out. In the end we both grew out of it, but it was me who ended it when I got to know her well enough to realize that she simply wasn't the right woman for me. And yes, her youthfulness certainly clouded my judgement for awhile.
Would you say that the biggest issues you had with her were related to the age gap, or just her personality and other things that are dependent on the individual?
 

fireshark

Kingfisher
Other Christian
Would you say that the biggest issues you had with her were related to the age gap, or just her personality and other things that are dependent on the individual?
Both. If I had met her when she was 22, it would have much more obvious what kind of person she is, and I wouldn't have been attracted to her beyond purely physical. Looking back, she was growing into that person the whole time, but as I said, I let youthfulness cloud my judgement. I personally wouldn't go for women younger than 22 except for in very specific circumstances. You need to be very world-wise and very experienced with women to know who she really is when she's a teenager / just hitting 20.
 

Stoyan

 
Banned
Orthodox
Maybe you can laugh at me, but as a young man, I am just unhappy that "old" men are getting the young girls, as a perceived kind of competition.
 

prisonplanet

Robin
Other Christian
Maybe you can laugh at me, but as a young man, I am just unhappy that "old" men are getting the young girls, as a perceived kind of competition.

You in your 20s? I was saying somewhere above how the culture, through statuary rape laws that don't factor in common sense, has set both young men and young women for failure. It forces men in their 20s to be overly cautious (or downright terrified) about dealing with girls around the age of 18. So young men up in establishments (bars, clubs, college, workplace, online dating, etc) where their only options are women their own age or older. These relationships are certain to be more fleeting and sinful.

One memory I have that still kind of stings in a "what might have been" department was when I was 21 and meeting a beautiful 15 y/o Christian girl. She was in love with me and I her, and I walked away out of fear of the age difference, and in subsequent years my life turned into evermore slavery to alcohol, fornication and porn. I understand the frustration of younger people but also remember, many of us older ones are feeling the long-term ramifications of the same societal breakdowns. I take responsibility for my part, but society totally sets us up for pair-bonding failure.

I suggest young Christian men start courting girls in their church, even if they are under 18. The culture calls that "grooming," but the culture is backwards. Right is wrong, down is up, shame the righteous, exalt the sinful, etc.
 

Stoyan

 
Banned
Orthodox
So young men up in establishments (bars, clubs, college, workplace, online dating, etc) where their only options are women their own age or older. These relationships are certain to be more fleeting and sinful.
I wouldn't date a woman who is more than a couple years older than me. Because, not every woman, but many women in the west have had multiple sexual partners by that time. I wouldn't want a non-virgin girl, because I don't want to get STDs.

I've read on the internet that in America, at least a certain percentage of girls, now have sex in middle school, which is totally unacceptable.

One memory I have that still kind of stings in a "what might have been" department was when I was 21 and meeting a beautiful 15 y/o Christian girl. She was in love with me and I her, and I walked away out of fear of the age difference, and in subsequent years my life turned into evermore slavery to alcohol, fornication and porn.
I would have taken her if I were you. Unfortunately I've never had an equally comparable chance in my life.

I suggest young Christian men start courting girls in their church, even if they are under 18.
I'll consider that, thanks. Although which churches have young girls, instead of old ladies? Maybe Mormons?
 

Optimus Princeps

Woodpecker
Orthodox Catechumen
One memory I have that still kind of stings in a "what might have been" department was when I was 21 and meeting a beautiful 15 y/o Christian girl. She was in love with me and I her, and I walked away out of fear of the age difference, and in subsequent years my life turned into evermore slavery to alcohol, fornication and porn. I understand the frustration of younger people but also remember, many of us older ones are feeling the long-term ramifications of the same societal breakdowns. I take responsibility for my part, but society totally sets us up for pair-bonding failure.

I suggest young Christian men start courting girls in their church, even if they are under 18. The culture calls that "grooming," but the culture is backwards. Right is wrong, down is up, shame the righteous, exalt the sinful, etc.
That's a good point and I remember a similar experience with a 17 year old that liked me when I was around 20, and I stayed away from her for the same stigma. It's a shame that our society is like this, it's set up to fail from every possible angle and to destroy natural man-woman relationships.
 

Parmesan

Kingfisher
Other Christian
The girl and her parents weren't in church again today. It seems to me, from their very sporadic attendance, as well as what I've picked up talking to them, that they are more "conservative" than "Christian." Conservative without Christ means almost nothing. I think my initial gut instinct is probably right - she's headed down a bad (albeit typical) path, and her parents realize that nothing short of her marrying a strong, mature Christian man who can take charge of her can deter it. They are right. The question is, do you want the job? I don't.

Using the team analogy, the man is the head of a household. When a man is single, while God should be team owner and manager, the man is team leader/star player. His wife should be a great, complimentary #2. A girl in her late teens/early 20s is like building your team using the draft rather than free agency (trading, I suppose, would be a sin, but analogies can't get too deep). Using the draft, you get raw prospects. You could hit big, or get a dud. This girl has all the makings of a bust. It's more her parents fault than hers, but that's life. This thread has been helpful to get me thinking if nothing else.

I would say that there is fair bit of Black Pill viewpoints in here. Several guys talked about all the potential problems, including her influences. That's all fair, although unlike the sports analogy, I think we should not leave God out of the discussion. While I don't want the job (i.e, I think I would rather wait for a gem to open up in free agency), with Christ all things are possible. It's not X's and O's with faith. There's plenty of room for miracles. As for her greatest influences, right now it's her parents. Ideally, it should be Jesus, and I will pray for that to happen.

Next should be her future husband. It would very likely have to be an older - I think much older - Christian male who takes total charge. The 18 y/o guy in my church who likes her, for example, would make a close friend to her, but that is not what she needs. Your team starts with two players. You want to really know yourself, so you know what you need in your #2. I don't need a draft pick, especially one with such question marks. Why? I am simply not developed enough, not strong enough. But that doesn't mean there isn't a man out there who fits the bill. Age is one factor, but there are many. I don't know what a complimentary #2 would look like, but I just gotta handle my business and trust that God, team owner and GM, will find the right one for me.
Obviously we have little info to go on tom judge how "bad" this girl is, but considering she is going to church with her parents at the age of 18 tells me she's probably still in a better position than most women her age. I can't imagine she is a completely lost cause yet. You mention waiting for a "gem", but what are the odds this sort of situation with a fertile young woman presents itself to you again? You might very well be right on your analysis, but if fatherhood is on your radar, I don't know how comfortable I would be waiting it out for a perceived better opportunity. There is a very good chance you won't find what you are looking for considering your age. An attractive girl going to church at 18 is frankly a rarity in itself. Most women you meet out and about are going to be far more broken than this girl is now.

I'm speaking from experience, and don't take this the wrong way, but I can't help but wonder if your conclusion here is a bit of a cope for being uneasy about the whole situation and not making a decision. I made many sort of rash justifications like this for not pursuing women in my youth. As potentially awkward as it may be, I don't think it would hurt to simply take her father aside briefly and explain your thoughts and what he thinks about taking her out. You might regret not at least investigating the opportunity more in the future.
 

Stoyan

 
Banned
Orthodox
That's a good point and I remember a similar experience with a 17 year old that liked me when I was around 20, and I stayed away from her for the same stigma. It's a shame that our society is like this, it's set up to fail from every possible angle and to destroy natural man-woman relationships.
What? That's only a 3 year age gap. Or only a 6 year age gap for @prisonplanet 's first example. Those are tolerable age gaps.

It's not like his current age gap, when he's like twice as old as that girl.
 

Stoyan

 
Banned
Orthodox
You might regret not at least investigating the opportunity more in the future.
For reference, I regret for not investigating an opportunity that came up a few years ago for me.

Of course, I never got to know the woman in my story. And of course since I never got to know her, she obviously didn't get a chance to love me, unlike @prisonplanet 's or @Optimus Princeps 's examples. It's just what I mean with just investigating the opportunity.

 

prisonplanet

Robin
Other Christian
I'll consider that, thanks. Although which churches have young girls, instead of old ladies? Maybe Mormons?

I really think any church. But go to extra functions. Church picnics, retreats. Volunteer at your church. Maybe the girl isn't a regular but she will be inspired by you to become one.
 

prisonplanet

Robin
Other Christian
What? That's only a 3 year age gap. Or only a 6 year age gap for @prisonplanet 's first example. Those are tolerable age gaps.

It's not like his current age gap, when he's like twice as old as that girl.

Oh for sure, those age gaps are nothing. The point is that by arbitrarily drawing this line at 18, and giving very little room to breathe, young men are too timid and miss out on what might have been great marriages.

My whole life might have changed had I married that girl, and obviously nobody would think twice about me being 38 married to a 32 year old, but back then there was serious stigma attached.
 
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