2018/2019 Bear Market

edlefou

Woodpecker
This isn't Volcker having the balls to push interest rates into the stratosphere in the 70s to get runaway inflation under control.

The Fed's monetary policy is supposed to adjust interest rates in order to keep inflation under control, provide liquidity, and keep the economy from overheating.

This guy decided to jack up interest rates when the current inflation rate is fine and the markets tanked.

At best the rate hike was a mistake, at worst it was a politically-motivated move to fuck with Trump.
 

Arado

Pelican
Gold Member
RDF said:
Arado said:
1) The Fed is tightening via QT-balance sheet reductions
2) Fed Interest rate rises remain on the table,

They may still change their stance given the 6% correction since their announcement. The fed obviously shifts its tone quite often, and although Powell has stated that he will not use the fed as a vehicle to bail out the stock market, if the correction continues to be this violent he will have to reconsider.

Arado said:
5) 10 years since the end of the last bear market so we are at or near the end of the business cycle

True. But why can't there just be a slow period of ~2-3% returns until the P/E ratios catch up to historical levels, and then the market rallies again?

Arado said:
6) Corporate leverage and debt way too high, record 250+$ Trillion worldwide debt, including 1.5 trillion student debt in the US

I agree with this being a ticking time bomb. But student debt and sovereign debt have been high as hell for many years. What makes you think that NOW is when the bubble pops? You could've made this exact same statement in 2013, and missed out on 50% returns.

Arado said:
10) Skyrocketing fiscal deficit eating up any excess liquidity
11) International economic slowdown and bear market started earlier this year

Same as above. We were running a huge fiscal deficit with Obama, and the stock market roared. And in 2016 the world economy also slowed. No major effect on the markets.

I actually agree with many of the things you pointed out, but no one thing has a direct correlation to market movement.

The truth is, nobody knows what is going to happen to the markets. However, the one thing I have learned is that it is good to be cautious when everybody seems to be on one side of the boat. The past week, there has been as much pessimism as I have heard in many years ("the market is crashing, run for cover!"). This suggests to me that it is a decent time to buy, if only for a relief rally.

RDF, appreciate your input on my points. Here are some followup thoughts. I'm going to sound like a broken record droning on and on about the fed, but I really think Central Bank actions are key.

Fed Policy Reversal

Once it appears that the Fed will lower interest rates or stop the drawdown of the balance sheet, then I would be happy to reconsider my position. You can easily buy back into whatever index fund you were in once the policy announcement is made. You may not profit from the rally that will occur that day, but you will benefit from the subsequent expansions. For now though there is no evidence of a dramatic reversal in Fed policy.

Can't returns just be lower for the next few years?

Excluding inflation or a massive tech bonanza, the average returns over the next 10 years will probably be 2 or 3% so I agree with you there. However, if you look at a historical chart of the S&P, that is quite rare. What is more common are sharp declines in the indexes prior to and and during recessions.

The indexes usually don't just muddle along - smart money flocks to bonds and treasuries if they can get nearly the same returns with much less risk. However, people holding 401Ks and those who preach "time in the market is better than timing the market" are left holding the bag when the smart money gets out - the average guy gets screwed.

If you lose 50% of your portfolio's value, you need a subsequent 100% return to get back to just the original value. Likely to happen with post-crash Fed stimulus, but no guarantee that you won't lose a ton of value to inflation by then.

Why is debt all of a sudden a problem now? What about 2013?

Simple - from October 2012 till October 2014 - the time period you mention above, the Federal Reserve increased the size of the balance sheet from 2.8 trillion dollars to 4.5 trillion dollars during QE3.

fed%20balance%20sheet%20vs%20es%20DB.jpg


Why isn't the impact of a worldwide slowdown similar to the one in 2015/2016?

Again, in 2015/2016 there was massive monetary stimulus from the ECB and BOJ to prop up the markets. This is the only thing that propped up assets once the Fed reserve stopped QE. In 2015, the Fed raised rates by a measly 25 basis points and the markets still freaked out until they were saved by ECB/BOJ.

47769140-15092108444392734.jpg


Other thoughts

I'm actually banking on a relief rally at least so that people can get their bearings and I can sell off the rest of my positions without taking too much of a loss. I forgot one point that I didn't mention earlier:

12) Yield curve inversion of the 2 and 5 year treasury bonds. 2 and 10 year spread is also extremely thin so could also invert in the near future. This is a very consistent recession indicator.

Obviously no one knows what is going to happen, but (as an extreme example) anyone that bought into the market in July 2000 didn't recover their value until October 2015. Dividends made up some of the difference, but were canceled out by inflation.

Peter Schiff has to be right eventually!
 

redpillage

 
Banned
Gold Member
TheFinalEpic said:
nek said:
TheFinalEpic said:
Play volatility. It's been historically low since pretty much Trump got into office, good time to be selling options, long volatility indexes, looking into forex, etc.

I thought you couldn't invest in the VIX directly?

There are numerous volatility instruments, and you can use options on the VIX directly.

Incorrect. The VIX is not a derivative to anything. What you CAN do is to trade options on the VX futures and several IV exchange traded products (ETPs). They are however not perfectly correlated with the VIX (a computed index) which makes matters a bit more complex.
 

redpillage

 
Banned
Gold Member
Deepdiver said:
FYI Example SPY Calls at 3:21PM EDT 21/Dec/2018
Symbol LastPrice$ Change$ Change% Qty  PriceWhenAdded DateAdded TotalGain$ TotalGain% Value $

SPY Mar 29 19 $260 Call 4.30 -0.83 -16.18% 1 5.70 12/20/2018 -188.00 -32.98% 430.00
SPY Mar 29 19 $270 Call 1.57 -1.03 -39.62% 1 2.72 12/20/2018 -115.00 -42.28% 157.00
SPY Jan 18 19 $290 Call 0.03 0.01 50.00% 1 3.35 05/08/2018 -332.00 -99.10% 3.00
SPY Jan 18 19 $300 Call 0.01 -0.01 -50.00% 1 1.35 05/08/2018 -134.00 -99.26% 1.00

I will be buying some 260 and 270 Calls for the Run back up to MW4 at 2600

Don't do that. See those percentages in your option chain segment? That's implied volatility which will get crushed on the way up and massively affect your premiums. What you CAN do instead is to grab an in the money (ITM) debit spread (look it up) that renders you somewhat vega neutral. Also, you don't want to buy January puts as theta burn (time value depreciation) will start going exponential. Unless you really know what you're doing don't ever buy any options that have less than 30 days until expiration.

Good luck ;-)
 

Shinebox

 
Banned
Going from 2.25 to 2.5 isn't some kind of gaff. In a decent economy, this is a nothingburger. The fact that people are trying to bully Powell into changing his course is the proof that his course is correct. Push that shit to five tomorrow and let's get this circus over with. Pull-off the band-aid. Can't fight gravity or math. The day of reckoning will come.

edlefou said:
This isn't Volcker having the balls to push interest rates into the stratosphere in the 70s to get runaway inflation under control.

The Fed's monetary policy is supposed to adjust interest rates in order to keep inflation under control, provide liquidity, and keep the economy from overheating.

This guy decided to jack up interest rates when the current inflation rate is fine and the markets tanked.

At best the rate hike was a mistake, at worst it was a politically-motivated move to fuck with Trump.
 

Arado

Pelican
Gold Member
Shinebox said:
Going from 2.25 to 2.5 isn't some kind of gaff. In a decent economy, this is a nothingburger. The fact that people are trying to bully Powell into changing his course is the proof that his course is correct. Push that shit to five tomorrow and let's get this circus over with. Pull-off the band-aid. Can't fight gravity or math. The day of reckoning will come.

edlefou said:
This isn't Volcker having the balls to push interest rates into the stratosphere in the 70s to get runaway inflation under control.

The Fed's monetary policy is supposed to adjust interest rates in order to keep inflation under control, provide liquidity, and keep the economy from overheating.

This guy decided to jack up interest rates when the current inflation rate is fine and the markets tanked.

At best the rate hike was a mistake, at worst it was a politically-motivated move to fuck with Trump.

Interest rates are abnormally low given the current levels of unemployment. Look over the last few decades of interest rates.

[img=630x360]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...l_funds_rate_history_and_recessions.jpg[/img]

We go up a tiny nudge and there are rumors of the President wanting to fire the Fed Chief. That is madness. The mistake was keeping them near zero for so long.

If the economy can't handle a less than 1% real interest rate (accounting for inflation) then it's further proof that this entire recovery has been built on a house of cards and funny money. Savers have been getting the shaft in order to let corporations, the government, and irresponsible consumers go on a debt binge for the last decade. The party has to end at some point. The longer we delay the more pain we will have in the future as an even bigger debt bubble bursts.

Not to mention that without higher rates then the Fed has less room to maneuver when the recession hits.
 

Shemp

 
Banned
>>Isn't anything around 30% a depression?

1962 and 1969 declines were close to 30%, depending on how you measure. Economy was far more robust then than now. 1973-1974 decline was accompanied by recession, but hardly depression, and over 40% market decline. 40% off 2900 = 1740, which is not really cheap for the SP500, more like fair price. Remember how leveraged many of these stocks are. Any decline whatsoever in earnings before interest will be multiplied when it comes to shareholder earnings.
 

semibaron

Kingfisher
The Black Knight said:
It should be a big, BIG warning to everyone that the largest economy in the world, which has had cheap debt (low interest rates/free money when accounting for inflation) for around a decade, can't handle a modest increase in interest rates without having a major panic attack.

The entire world economy has been propped up on cheap debt and there is gong to be a crash of epic proportions sometime in the near future.

Some major areas of concern:

1. Entire sectors like the tech sector for example, basically can't function without access to cheap debt. Anyone who has worked in tech can tell you about the many joke companies that still exist with tons of revenue but haven't been profitable for years. That bullshit can only last in a world with cheap debt. Silicon Valley culture has been drunk for long time on keeping alive non-sustainable business models. A reckoning is coming.

2. Emerging markets are having massive currency issues. What happens if they default due to weak currency/strong dollar? What happens to their ability to purchase exports?

Over $200 billion of USD-denominated bonds and loans issued by emerging market governments and companies will come due during the remainder of 2018, according to the Wall Street Journal. About $500 billion will come due in 2019. They will need to be paid off or refinanced.

https://seekingalpha.com/article/4199297-rise-u-s-dollar-haunts-emerging-market-debt

3. The EU, fiscally speaking, is a disaster. It's a realistic possibility that Italy could pull the pin any day, leave the Euro to get control of their country back (they have not benefited at all from the Euro), and blow up the EU/Euro in the process. Politically, Hungary and other countries might quit the EU eventually after getting bullied and stripped of their EU power because they won't bend the knee to globalist migration bullshit. Shit, look at the whole Yellow Vest deal recently. The EU has an economy around the size of the USA and is hot and ready to pop from multiple directions.

4. Brexit? - Hard exit/soft exit? Who knows.

5. Muller investigation ending with bullshit charges and/or Democrat overt coup originating from the House? - Very real possibilities.

6. Entitlement spending in US federal/state/local governments is going to explode over the next decade as we hit Peak Baby Boomer. Federal SS/Medicare/Medicaid spending is 2 TRILLION dollars or thereabouts right now. Federal revenues are around 3.5 Trillion. And interest rates are going up = debt payment expenses are going to increase.

7. China Trade War - The largest economies in the world in a overt fiscal war is a real possibility.

8. China internal issues/housing/debt - 1 in 5 apartments/housing units in urban areas (need to double check the urban areas bit) in China are unoccupied and much of the populace holds their overall net worth in housing; including 2nd and 3rd properties. The gov't has been propping up the housing market to keep the house of cards together. What happens if China has their own version of a housing related financial crisis?

This is just a sampling of how many fucked up things are floating around out there in the the overall world economies right now that could trigger a major economic crash. We honestly need a hard reset back down to reality, one that should have occurred in 2008-2009 (which was postponed), but I'd be wary of being invested in the market right now.

I feel like if you buy now, you're basically buying right before the financial 2008 crisis or the dot com crash. Sure, you could make some gains but why not just wait it out a bit longer and catch the amazing bargain prices when the REAL freaking out starts.


Great analysis.

The only point I disagree is that you shouldn't invest now. We are living in a very globalised world, in which financial crisis can spread fast.

Imagine one of your points raised above, for example the implosion of the EU, happens, then this will by itself trigger many other effects. Maybe Japan with ~250% debt to GDP and an ageing population will implode next. By then a lot of smaller countries would collapse as well, finally reaching your own country of residence.

In such a worst case scenario, the majority companies will run some sort of emergency plan (laying of employees, reducing factory output) or even go straight into bankruptcy. I highly doubt, that national currencies like the Japanese Yen or the US Dollar will be worth anything in such a scenario. More likely we would face civil war.

Therefore, take the chance and invest now. Because if we are going to run into a crash, it is going to be the biggest one the world has ever seen and by then I worry about my security and how to secure food rather than some $$$.
 

Arado

Pelican
Gold Member
semibaron said:
Great analysis.

The only point I disagree is that you shouldn't invest now. We are living in a very globalised world, in which financial crisis can spread fast.

Imagine one of your points raised above, for example the implosion of the EU, happens, then this will by itself trigger many other effects. Maybe Japan with ~250% debt to GDP and an ageing population will implode next. By then a lot of smaller countries would collapse as well, finally reaching your own country of residence.

In such a worst case scenario, the majority companies will run some sort of emergency plan (laying of employees, reducing factory output) or even go straight into bankruptcy. I highly doubt, that national currencies like the Japanese Yen or the US Dollar will be worth anything in such a scenario. More likely we would face civil war.

Therefore, take the chance and invest now. Because if we are going to run into a crash, it is going to be the biggest one the world has ever seen and by then I worry about my security and how to secure food rather than some $$$.

I'm not sure about the above strategy. Cash is a risk free 2% return right now, while assets are declining in value. Once the Fed starts up the printing presses then the USD will decline but for now, it should be ok. Other than gold, there aren't many other assets that investors flee to during a financial crisis other than dollars and treasuries.

I'm glad you brought up Japan though - how is it that their Central Bank has crashed interest rates and run the printing presses like crazy and the Yen has maintained its value? This is the only thing making me hold off on totally writing off the dollar once QE4 starts up again. 250 debt to GDP ratio is nuts, with a declining population they can't hope of ever paying that back.

If you think this is a world-ending type of crash, then gold, guns, farmland, medicine, and water are your best assets, not mutual funds or ETFs or condos.
 

edlefou

Woodpecker
The Fed should have built more comfort before escalating.

Even moreso given the volatility in the stock market over the last few months.

As long as inflation and unemployment are under control and the economy isn't growing too fast there's no reason the Fed couldn't have waited a couple more months before the next increase.

There's always a crash around the corner and it's the Fed's job to avoid it and make a soft landing for the economy, i.e., build comfort, get the pussy wet, slide it in.

Based on the market's reaction, most agree. The Fed moved too quick and got some ASD.

Arado said:
Shinebox said:
Going from 2.25 to 2.5 isn't some kind of gaff. In a decent economy, this is a nothingburger. The fact that people are trying to bully Powell into changing his course is the proof that his course is correct. Push that shit to five tomorrow and let's get this circus over with. Pull-off the band-aid. Can't fight gravity or math. The day of reckoning will come.

Interest rates are abnormally low given the current levels of unemployment. Look over the last few decades of interest rates.

We go up a tiny nudge and there are rumors of the President wanting to fire the Fed Chief. That is madness. The mistake was keeping them near zero for so long.

If the economy can't handle a less than 1% real interest rate (accounting for inflation) then it's further proof that this entire recovery has been built on a house of cards and funny money. Savers have been getting the shaft in order to let corporations, the government, and irresponsible consumers go on a debt binge for the last decade. The party has to end at some point. The longer we delay the more pain we will have in the future as an even bigger debt bubble bursts.
 

bobmjilica

Sparrow
Guys get into short ETF's.
Invested in a ton today and just got 6% return on em. All went very green and basically followed the same pattern. Do some research on what ETF's to buy, and when to buy and sell. There may be an upcoming rally soon. There will be more crashes as well. These ETF's are easy money at this point.
 

MrLemon

 
Banned
edlefou said:
There's always a crash around the corner and it's the Fed's job to avoid it

Are you kidding? The Fed wants a bigger crash. They are orchestrating the entire thing. No, I'm not even conspiracy-theorizing. It's just very clear. They want it to crash because they are trying to kill off Trump. Plus the press is screaming doom every microsecond.
 

Johnnyvee

Ostrich
Other Christian
MrLemon said:
edlefou said:
There's always a crash around the corner and it's the Fed's job to avoid it

Are you kidding? The Fed wants a bigger crash. They are orchestrating the entire thing. No, I'm not even conspiracy-theorizing. It's just very clear. They want it to crash because they are trying to kill off Trump. Plus the press is screaming doom every microsecond.

I`m not sure they want a crash, but rather a long and steady recession that last all the way until election day in 2020. In an isolated sense Powell and the Fed are doing the right thing, but is it about politics rather than economics?
 

kamoz

Kingfisher
Gold Member
Johnnyvee said:
MrLemon said:
edlefou said:
There's always a crash around the corner and it's the Fed's job to avoid it

Are you kidding? The Fed wants a bigger crash. They are orchestrating the entire thing. No, I'm not even conspiracy-theorizing. It's just very clear. They want it to crash because they are trying to kill off Trump. Plus the press is screaming doom every microsecond.

I`m not sure they want a crash, but rather a long and steady recession that last all the way until election day in 2020. In an isolated sense Powell and the Fed are doing the right thing, but is it about politics rather than economics?

Bingo. The last thing the Deep State wants is a true "crash" or "dollar crisis" that doomsdayers like Peter Schiff keep rambling about. I was concerned about this a couple years ago but when they kept flipping out over the slightest dip and changing their story, then I was like ok these people are full of shit.

By truly crashing the economy you provide an opportunity for said nation to restart anew. Maybe for somewhere like Greece or Venezuela it doesn't matter, but the United States of Fucking America is a different story. We still have the most powerful military by far, millions of citizens armed, and Donald J. Trump as our commander-in-chief. Let's say a real crash does happen. My bet is that Trump tries to make some ballsy moves (i.e. question the Fed's existence and purpose) - he's already starting to blame the Fed and pull troops back home. Sure the Deep State can assassinate him. But you better bet there are people in the military and citizens that will take action. There is already a very real movement ongoing in France. Things can spiral out of the Deep State's control very quickly.

The slow burn recession is most likely. Maybe on par with 08 or even not as severe. However, the media will make every effort to make it SEEM like it's horrendous. That way, people don't feel so much pain in reality so as to be prompted to take meaningful action, but might get convinced when it comes to election day. One thing I already know they will try to pull is to whip out the "real" unemployment numbers if and when the recession begins in earnest and companies start laying off. We've known for years how full of shit these numbers are, and Trump himself repeatedly brought them up during his campaign. But we've seen how reckless the media is when they throw stuff out, so they will depend on people's short memory regarding this subject. Unemployment numbers will seemingly explode only because they're counting it differently. And the board is set on social media to try and prevent this information from reaching the masses like in the Great Meme War.
 
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