33 Things Christian Men Should Know About Women

[Kentucky Gent]

Most young men, in general, ARE frittering. Frittering away their noontime, suppertime, choretime too! (One might say.)

They are reacting rationally to the MMP (marriage market place). This is something most, if not all, women never get. That's how men approach things - rationally and logically. Not saying women never do, but that your thinking is much more emotional than men's, most of the time.

There is a vast difference between a) frittering away your youth; and b) trying to find a wife when you're young, getting thwarted at every turn, and then deciding "Screw it, the women arent interested. I might as well make the best of the situation." Aaron Clarey (and others) makes a living from young men going through scenario (b).

Because of the asymmetry in courtship, where women get pursued and men must do the pursuing, and the fact that most young women will get pursued by lots of men, I don't think women can ever fully grasp how difficult the MMP is for men.

 

[EntWife]

This is called anecdotal evidence. It is not statistically valid. You don't know enough people to draw conclusions based only on what you observe in your personal life.

The manosphere is not just some people saying something. It is massive, and I'd bet dollars to little green donuts you haven't seen much of it. But that's just the beginning. Plummeting marriage rates correlate directly to the rise of feminism, and there isn't really much else out there that correlates as well, so it's probably causation. And we can see the data not just from the US but across Western Civ. It just isn't rational to base your opinion on only the people you know while ignoring an approximately 2-billion person data set.

Then you've got the divorce-industrial complex that is heavily skewed against men, and the fact that 70% of divorces are initiated by the woman, which combined create a virtual minefield and literal "no man's land" that young men have to be willing to cross to get married. And they can see a system stacked against them, which means they have to be and are much more cautious about tying the knot than previous generations.

Your previous comment that I was replying to wasn't about statistics. Statistics don't show if young men really want to get married and settle down but are prevented from doing so by women's choices.

Statistics do show that men are forming bad habits - multiple short-term relationships, low marriage rate, high rates of drug use, and sky-high pornography use and masturbation rates.

Men are not getting married as much anymore, but their behavior is not cautious. Men and women are moving in together, acquiring bills together, and having children together out of wedlock, then breaking up over whatever, with less thought than I put into buying embroidery supplies.

 

[Kentucky Gent]

The very sad thing I've observed along my own path through existence is that all of the most marriageable women I've known (beautiful and virtuous, didn't mess around, married young) were snapped up by men who wanted to put exactly one or two babies in them and then get a vasectomy.

Often this was not discussed before marriage, the women just assumed their to-be husbands were on board with the traditional standard, and the young men rode those assumptions all the way to the altar, hung the framed copy of the LDS "The Family: A Proclamation to the World" on the wall - and then a few years down the road it's "we can't afford more children" or "but I want your body all to myself again."

The "hottest" girls I knew from way back ended up divorced after two children because their husbands insisted on some kind of indefinite/permanent birth control thereafter.

My friends and I circa-twenty-years-ago would like to know the location of the hidden stash of young men who want big families. Even in the very pro-natal Mormon church, these were rare. My friends and I joked about how we wished women could have babies together, because we all wanted tons of babies ASAP and it was incredibly difficult to find a young man who didn't want you to be on some kind of birth control for the first couple of years of the hypothetical marriage "and then we'll see."

Most of the men I've known to actually WANT large families, are middle-aged-and-older men who did plenty of frittering in their youth and have come around to an understanding of what they've been trading away and what they could have had instead. They were not DENIED anything when they were young; they chose the "shiny" path of material and sensory gratification because it looked like a better deal to them than the "old ways" that would saddle them with obligation and place restrictions on their liberty.

"Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free" was the mantra that preceded the question of "Where have all the good women gone?"

Kind of like how "A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle" was the precursor to "Where have all the good men gone?"

Both sexes have been targeted wholesale with propaganda designed to undermine family formation.

We live in a world where many people will only come to see the truth through the sorrow and heartache of having been deceived.

I feel for those young people who have earnestly spent their youth preparing for and seeking marriage, and find themselves lacking suitable available options. What I wish for young men AND women who find themselves in this position to realize, is that they are in that position partly because they themselves are rare.

Maybe a lot of what I say comes across as trying to point the finger back at men, but my point is not "well look at how bad most men are."

It's just this: If you are a young person who truly desires to follow the "old ways," marry young, raise a large family for the Glory of God, etc. -- please understand that you are a very rare person, seeking another very rare person.

If you (man or woman) assume that you are basically typical of your own sex (that is to say, that MOST of your peers also want these good things for good reasons), and that it's only the opposite sex that is mostly wayward... this will not equip you to understand and relate to those rare people of the opposite sex who ARE seeking the same things you are.

"I'M the statistically disadvantaged/victimized one because I am (my own sex). Finding a good spouse should have been easy for you because you are (the opposite sex), and most of (my own sex) are highly qualified for and actively seeking marriage. So what's wrong with you that you haven't settled down with one of your countless available options yet???" is the mindset that seems to develop from these sorts of assumptions, and it is a mindset that serves nobody but Satan.

I didn't know there was an active hen party when I replied. So I am getting multiple women all making the same anecdotal evidence mistake, plus this comment, which is longer than some short stories. I read fast and type fast, but this is too much to keep up with.

Good night all!

 

[PineTreeFarmer]

As an active laying hen, I pray for the wellbeing of the flock.

 

[EntWife]

I didn't know there was an active hen party when I replied. So I am getting multiple women all making the same anecdotal evidence mistake, plus this comment, which is longer than some short stories. I read fast and type fast, but this is too much to keep up with.

Good night all!

You haven't provided any evidence for your previous claims that men are not forming bad habits and that they want to get married but are prevented from doing so by the bad behaviour of women.

 

[Number one bummer]

You should hear my husband talk about the men around here who lay around and expect their girlfriends to support them and the children. Then they break up and move in with someone else. The children are living with various unrelated people who both mom and dad bring into their households. There's often drugs involved.

What your husband is talking about is the welfare/criminal underclass. Hardly representative of more than 10-15% of the population. The fact is, 70% of men 20-34 are not married, only a fraction of that number are "deadbeats" with "baby mammas" or drug issues.

Both sexes have been targeted wholesale with propaganda designed to undermine family formation.

The subversion of women has come from: the 19th amendment, forced entry into workforce, promotion of getting useless degrees while acquiring "family stunting" student debt, addiction to attention through social media, distorted standards through previously mentioned unwarranted attention, online dating, and feminism creating consumer incentives that only serve globalist/banking business interests.

Men have been subverted by: the loss of breadwinning jobs, lack of quality women, drugs, and ghetto culture.

Those two are not the same.

It's just this: If you are a young person who truly desires to follow the "old ways," marry young, raise a large family for the Glory of God, etc. -- please understand that you are a very rare person, seeking another very rare person.

Women are the selective sex, a woman with traditional values has limitless options when it comes to marrying young and starting a family. This supported by the fact there has never been a movement built around women finding good men, the way this and other manosphere forums started.

I did find an appropriate family member.

Nobody here is marrying their cousin. Sorry.

Statistics do show that men are forming bad habits - multiple short-term relationships,

Women initiate most divorces and breakups. This is an effect and not a cause.

low marriage rate,

Women are the selective sex. For men, this is an effect and not a cause.

high rates of drug use,

Women use mind altering prescription drugs at double the rate that men do.

and sky-high pornography use and masturbation rates.

There have never been more unmarried or celibate men. This is an effect, not a cause.

I understand the good-faith arguments here, like the older women in my family, there is limited useful advice when it comes to modern women and courting. Most women on this forum are no doubt blessed in being statistical outliers.

 

[infowarrior1]

Most men are not "frittering away their youth". They want to get married, but it is not on the table for them because most young and even 30+ year-old women are more interested in their careers and sleeping around with bad boys.

Getting married young is still on the culture menu for women, and probably always will be. But it is not a menu option for young men anymore.

No, women are forming bad habits, men are just searching for options that are actually available to them, instead of the pipe dream of marrying young and having a big family, which is denied to them because of the choices of women.

Both can be true. A minority of more attractive men being promiscuous are spiritually damaging themselves. And a greater proportion of men is as you say.

@EntWife is correct in a minority of cases statistically speaking among men. But as has been posted earlier there are substantial rates of virginity among men up to 30% and more generally abstaining from relationships.

A possible way to pair economic viability and marrying young is an age gap to a certain extent. All else being equal.

Ever since the 2008 financial crisis it may also have contributed because it's not so easy for men to get income and property since then.

 

[Optimus Princeps]

I did find an appropriate family member.

Did the women's argument just devolve to admitting they married their cousin... Lol I mean cmon can we not address the elephant in the room with the devolution of this discourse?

 

[EntWife]

What your husband is talking about is the welfare/criminal underclass. Hardly representative of more than 10-15% of the population. The fact is, 70% of men 20-34 are not married, only a fraction of that number are "deadbeats" with "baby mammas" or drug issues.


The subversion of women has come from: the 19th amendment, forced entry into workforce, promotion of getting useless degrees while acquiring "family stunting" student debt, addiction to attention through social media, distorted standards through previously mentioned unwarranted attention, online dating, and feminism creating consumer incentives that only serve globalist/banking business interests.

Men have been subverted by: the loss of breadwinning jobs, lack of quality women, drugs, and ghetto culture.

Those two are not the same.


Women are the selective sex, a woman with traditional values has limitless options when it comes to marrying young and starting a family. This supported by the fact there has never been a movement built around women finding good men, the way this and other manosphere forums started.


Nobody here is marrying their cousin. Sorry.


Women initiate most divorces and breakups. This is an effect and not a cause.

Women are the selective sex. For men, this is an effect and not a cause.

Women use mind altering prescription drugs at double the rate that men do.

There have never been more unmarried or celibate men. This is an effect, not a cause.

I understand the good-faith arguments here, like the older women in my family, there is limited useful advice when it comes to modern women and courting. Most women on this forum are no doubt blessed in being statistical outliers.

I don't understand how men who pride themselves on their rationality and use of logic don't see that both men and women are making choices that cause the current problems with regards to marriage and family formation.

Women being the "selective sex" doesn't mean that women alone are responsible for all of it. Men are also selective. Unless you would just marry any woman who wanted you? Presumably, there are some women you would refuse for marriage, or even fornication.

Traditional women do not have "limitless options". I have personally seen young men choose "hot" sluts over objectively prettier, traditional women - because traditional women expect marriage, faithfulness, babies, provision, responsibility, etc. Plus the quality of young men, in general, is low because men are also harmed by the spiritual degradation of our society. It isn't only women who are damaged by that.

Women do initiate more divorces, but typically both spouses contribute to the breakdown of the marriage. I'd like to see no-fault divorce ended so people would have to stick it out, but then there might be more false allegations in order to get that divorce. It's really the people who need to change; the law is secondary to that.

And yes, the men my husband is talking about are usually from the welfare and criminal classes. Both classes are much larger than they used to be. The men themselves have made personal choices that caused that. They aren't automatons or chess pieces being moved around by women.

The men have agency too.

 

[PineTreeFarmer]

Did the women's argument just devolve to admitting they married their cousin... Lol I mean cmon can we not address the elephant in the room with the devolution of this discourse?

I'm kidding. Kind of.

 

[infowarrior1]

Did the women's argument just devolve to admitting they married their cousin... Lol I mean cmon can we not address the elephant in the room with the devolution of this discourse?

Oh no.

 

[infowarrior1]

I don't understand how men who pride themselves on their rationality and use of logic don't see that both men and women are making choices that cause the current problems with regards to marriage and family formation.

Women being the "selective sex" doesn't mean that women alone are responsible for all of it. Men are also selective. Unless you would just marry any woman who wanted you? Presumably, there are some women you would refuse for marriage, or even fornication.

Traditional women do not have "limitless options". I have personally seen young men choose "hot" sluts over objectively prettier, traditional women - because traditional women expect marriage, faithfulness, babies, provision, responsibility, etc. Plus the quality of young men, in general, is low because men are also harmed by the spiritual degradation of our society. It isn't only women who are damaged by that.

It speaks to a greater need for proper matchmaking and searching further afield. That plus Prayer. When Abraham's servant searched for a wife for Isaac he prayed and went looking before finding Rebekah. Although widening the search to older men(within reasonable limits of course) will help too given the quality of young men. Its likely more of them would have it together.

Women do initiate more divorces, but typically both spouses contribute to the breakdown of the marriage. I'd like to see no-fault divorce ended so people would have to stick it out, but then there might be more false allegations in order to get that divorce. It's really the people who need to change; the law is secondary to that.

And yes, the men my husband is talking about are usually from the welfare and criminal classes. Both classes are much larger than they used to be. The men themselves have made personal choices that caused that. They aren't automatons or chess pieces being moved around by women.

The men have agency too.

We all have a tendency towards sin. But the current environment makes it worse. Now that the incentives towards a stable marriage is being attacked culturally and legally. There is thereby more single motherhood. Leading to more "Bastards". Leading to more criminality and wickedness.

Otherwise good Husbands and Fathers are abstaining from marriage because of the legal risks. Or those who will never marry again since their traumatic divorces. Yes character does play a role. But we do know that in the past when the Law was more sane and uninfluenced by activists that divorces are less even when there is false allegations to help break up the marriage.

Its like the existence of walls. People may pass walls but walls still reduce passage.

Again it seems that this fallen culture and corrupt government is much more of a mission field. In regards to the legal issues and larger cultural forces beyond our control. Again we must Pray about it.

 

[Optimus Princeps]

delete- duplicate

 

[Optimus Princeps]

I'm kidding. Kind of.

 

[Iodine]

I am married to a secular woman. What do I do now? She does not give me any peace of mind but we have two children.

 

[PineTreeFarmer]

I am married to a secular woman. What do I do now? She does not give me any peace of mind but we have two children.

Pray for her and set a good example. It's easy to be critical of her, but are you structuring your shared time around appropriate behaviors?

 

[EntWife]

I am married to a secular woman. What do I do now? She does not give me any peace of mind but we have two children.

That's a tough situation. St. Paul says that if she's willing to live with you, you should stay because you might, by your example, bring her to Christ. Plus you don't want to abandon your children to her influence and the influence and possible abuse from whatever men might come after you.

 

[LuriaDuP]

On item #11 (Beautiful women live in another world). This is very true. I like math and probabilities; they have the ability to cut through the bull and get to the point. Women are just as susceptible to value distributions as men. Yes, there are notable exceptions that differ between men and women, because, men and women are different. For instance, IQ in women concentrates around the mean average, so, less completely stupid females (left tail end) and less highly intelligent females (right tail end), whereas, males are more widely distributed along this scale. In terms of looks or, if you will, a composite sexual attractiveness quotient, I'm unaware of any concentrations around means etc, but, regardless, just like anything else desirable, for every attractive female, there are several more unattractive ones, and even more when you include the average cohort. Attractive females get endless perks and, perhaps most of all, attention. How does this make the unattractive or average female feel? Well, they feel dismayed over this, and then what? They succumb to jealousy and envy and become disillusioned with, what they'll say is "the system" or "society", thus, they end up creating things like feminism and ardently support things like "equality". This is some vain attempt to obtain parity with their attractive counterparts, but its futile. Enough time passes being left out and treated poorly by others, namely their female peers, but of course, men, and they're ripe for radical ideas that aim to burn the world down. This is how feminists are made.

 

[LuriaDuP]

Hi! Mean and average are different things, but both tend to refer to central tendencies in data distribution. So most data curves concentrate around the average or mean. In this case, the difference in curves for men and women with regard to IQ is not huge around the average/mean/etc, and if anything the average woman looks to have a higher IQ than the average man. I’m in the bit of the women’s curve that tapers in a way that looks like it tends toward null probability, but definitely is a non-zero number. Where are you?

Regarding the second bit of your post,

 

[LuriaDuP]

The problem solves itself. Who gives the attention to the more conventionally attractive women, rather than average women? Who even decides what is conventially attractive? If it as you postulate, and men give the balance of power to attractive women which makes unconventionally attractive women jealous, then it seems to be a failure on the part of the men with regard to acknowledging realistic partnerships, assuming that men also are subject to the same conventional attractiveness standards as women. You’re probably a average looking guy (optimistic 6/10) - if you feel slighted by 10/10 women, why blame average looking women (6/10) for feeling slighted by dudes of the same attractiveness level who seem to think they can do better?