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<blockquote data-quote="Blatlantlyblue" data-source="post: 1481367" data-attributes="member: 22523"><p>Prime Minister-</p><p></p><p>Ad "Again I'm not sure why Muslims constantly keep coming on this Christian forum. But hopefully if they do come, I want them to be corrected about Christianity and I hope that will help convert them to Christianity down the road."</p><p></p><p>Ok, I will just type this message and I will not continue in our discussion in the thread. I see - this forum is just for "Christians" just for people who have their "bubble" and dont care about Truth in itself. Then your choice. I have nothing againts it.</p><p></p><p>ad "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, <strong>Mighty God</strong>, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." Isaiah 9:6</p><p></p><p>Just one thing - Isaiah 9:6 is very bad argument. Christ has never said about himself that he<strong> is Everlasting Father</strong>! This statement is heretical according to your own doctrine. You are mingling hypostatic Persons of Godhead. Everlasting in this case is nevertheless wrong translation - everlasting is actually "age/ aion" see "everlasting hell/fire which is actually "aionos" which is not absolutely infinitely... S<strong>o the correct translation would be the "Father of (coming) Age".</strong></p><p></p><p>What about<strong> "Mighty God"?</strong> - w<strong>ell, when you are making some dogmatical/theological claims you should have basis in primary texts, otherwise it would be like making sharia norms/ theological claims from English translation of Quran. </strong>So in this case is Hebrew "god" - el, but just same noun is used in Ezechiel 31:11 (el =ruler) and in other places. So if claiming Messiah would be God according to this, then also Babylonian king would be God. <strong>Isaiah is calling Messiah "Mighty Ruler".</strong></p><p></p><p>Food for thought:</p><p>Just one another example of how your own translated Scriptures are corrupted - Your main prayer - Lords prayer:</p><p>"Give us this day our daily bread" - In original greek - "....ton arton epiousion..." Daily= epiousion in this translation. Ousia = essence, Epi = over. <strong>Not daily in ephemeral sense but super/over-essential/; supersubstantialem in latin. So Over any created essence/substance/nature.</strong> Ousia is also the term which is used for Trinitarian dogmatic vocabulary - Trinity is homo-ousion (one-essence).</p><p></p><p>Bible (Tanakh) has not been written in Greek so - before you would make some theological claims, go firstly into Hebrew Bible, learn jewish understanding of the things and stop with interpreting of the jewish religious text with greek pagan eyes.</p><p></p><p>ad Blade Runner:</p><p>"What's more, even beyond the times in which he says he is YHWH (ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν), or in other places where it is translated "I am He" (he is also giving the name of God there) the entire biblical narrative is about the Jews wanting to put Christ to death for "making himself God". "</p><p></p><p> Yes of course it would be suitable argument IF these narrations will not be ONLY in the Gospel of John and we know that Jesus these "Iam ..." statements has never said.</p><p></p><p>ad "The question is, by what authority or reasoning do they claim such a thing? If the Gospel of Peter or Judas are true (hint hint: they aren't) on what basis are they reliable or legitimate, as opposed to other gospels? Of course, we only get 1 liners from guys like you that neither tell us why you claim what you claim nor by what authority. As a result, the honest person will grade you a failure, since you failed not even once, but twice."</p><p></p><p>There is 200 years history of field and textual work on New Testament canon in Europe and North America and of course I will not propose here the reasons for Iam claiming that half (maybe even more) of the NT canon is forgery, it is up to you to find out! These claims neverthless are not mine, 98% of academics agrees on that (catholics, protestants, ateist, agnostics...), just fundamentalistic protestants who believe that Earth has 6000 years and is flat do not agree.</p><p>At this place I can tell you at least that 1, 2 Timothy; 1 Titus; 2 Peter; Letter of James; Letter to Hebrew; Apocalypse and so on are all forgeries. Many church authors in primitive Church considered some of them forgeries too (foundator of biblistics - Origenes; Didymus the Blind; Dionysios of Alexandria and so on...)</p><p></p><p>Ad Muhammed - I am not a muslim so I cannot write an apology for him, but I would say that thing is not as simple as you put it. Try to read some muslim sources. I would suggest these 2 books:</p><p></p><p>[URL unfurl="true"]https://www.bookdepository.com/Muhammad-Martin-Lings/9781594771538?ref=grid-view&qid=1622615407480&sr=1-1[/URL]</p><p></p><p>[URL unfurl="true"]https://www.bookdepository.com/Islam-Destiny-Man-Gai-Eaton/9780946621477?ref=grid-view&qid=1622615429289&sr=1-1[/URL]</p><p></p><p>and a little bit of prophetic grace of Muhammad: [MEDIA=youtube]YpJUOTSdvCg:68[/MEDIA]</p><p></p><p>ad "Jesus he problem is that Jesus Christ is the antithesis in every way to that man, so it's pretty hard to explain why he is a good example at all, when Christ himself is the perfect example of love, beauty, truth, power, and authority - without sin. "</p><p></p><p>Yea, well Quran actually states that Jesus was born miraculously from virgin and without "black spot" just as Mary, his mother. but You have to consider the fact, that Christ did not teach something "absolutelly unique", what he stressed and emphasized was the "heart of the Torah" (everything which Jesus teached can be found in the Old Testament), because at that time Jews fell just into external conducting of Torah prescribtions. He tried to make his listeners to focus on the essential things firstly and secondly on other things, just read Sermon on Mount. Jesus was himself a Law- observant Jew, just like apostles and first Christians. But on which basis stands Christic Deity statements? On prophecies? - well all Hebrew prophecies about Messiah can be interpreted in "jewish/islamic" consistent manner. On the miracles? - well read for instance the deeds of Elijah and his disciple Elisha in the Book of Kings ; On resurrection? - well then read about Rainbow body phenomenon in Tibetian Budddhism.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Blatlantlyblue, post: 1481367, member: 22523"] Prime Minister- Ad "Again I'm not sure why Muslims constantly keep coming on this Christian forum. But hopefully if they do come, I want them to be corrected about Christianity and I hope that will help convert them to Christianity down the road." Ok, I will just type this message and I will not continue in our discussion in the thread. I see - this forum is just for "Christians" just for people who have their "bubble" and dont care about Truth in itself. Then your choice. I have nothing againts it. ad "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, [B]Mighty God[/B], Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." Isaiah 9:6 Just one thing - Isaiah 9:6 is very bad argument. Christ has never said about himself that he[B] is Everlasting Father[/B]! This statement is heretical according to your own doctrine. You are mingling hypostatic Persons of Godhead. Everlasting in this case is nevertheless wrong translation - everlasting is actually "age/ aion" see "everlasting hell/fire which is actually "aionos" which is not absolutely infinitely... S[B]o the correct translation would be the "Father of (coming) Age".[/B] What about[B] "Mighty God"?[/B] - w[B]ell, when you are making some dogmatical/theological claims you should have basis in primary texts, otherwise it would be like making sharia norms/ theological claims from English translation of Quran. [/B]So in this case is Hebrew "god" - el, but just same noun is used in Ezechiel 31:11 (el =ruler) and in other places. So if claiming Messiah would be God according to this, then also Babylonian king would be God. [B]Isaiah is calling Messiah "Mighty Ruler".[/B] Food for thought: Just one another example of how your own translated Scriptures are corrupted - Your main prayer - Lords prayer: "Give us this day our daily bread" - In original greek - "....ton arton epiousion..." Daily= epiousion in this translation. Ousia = essence, Epi = over. [B]Not daily in ephemeral sense but super/over-essential/; supersubstantialem in latin. So Over any created essence/substance/nature.[/B] Ousia is also the term which is used for Trinitarian dogmatic vocabulary - Trinity is homo-ousion (one-essence). Bible (Tanakh) has not been written in Greek so - before you would make some theological claims, go firstly into Hebrew Bible, learn jewish understanding of the things and stop with interpreting of the jewish religious text with greek pagan eyes. ad Blade Runner: "What's more, even beyond the times in which he says he is YHWH (ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν), or in other places where it is translated "I am He" (he is also giving the name of God there) the entire biblical narrative is about the Jews wanting to put Christ to death for "making himself God". " Yes of course it would be suitable argument IF these narrations will not be ONLY in the Gospel of John and we know that Jesus these "Iam ..." statements has never said. ad "The question is, by what authority or reasoning do they claim such a thing? If the Gospel of Peter or Judas are true (hint hint: they aren't) on what basis are they reliable or legitimate, as opposed to other gospels? Of course, we only get 1 liners from guys like you that neither tell us why you claim what you claim nor by what authority. As a result, the honest person will grade you a failure, since you failed not even once, but twice." There is 200 years history of field and textual work on New Testament canon in Europe and North America and of course I will not propose here the reasons for Iam claiming that half (maybe even more) of the NT canon is forgery, it is up to you to find out! These claims neverthless are not mine, 98% of academics agrees on that (catholics, protestants, ateist, agnostics...), just fundamentalistic protestants who believe that Earth has 6000 years and is flat do not agree. At this place I can tell you at least that 1, 2 Timothy; 1 Titus; 2 Peter; Letter of James; Letter to Hebrew; Apocalypse and so on are all forgeries. Many church authors in primitive Church considered some of them forgeries too (foundator of biblistics - Origenes; Didymus the Blind; Dionysios of Alexandria and so on...) Ad Muhammed - I am not a muslim so I cannot write an apology for him, but I would say that thing is not as simple as you put it. Try to read some muslim sources. I would suggest these 2 books: [URL unfurl="true"]https://www.bookdepository.com/Muhammad-Martin-Lings/9781594771538?ref=grid-view&qid=1622615407480&sr=1-1[/URL] [URL unfurl="true"]https://www.bookdepository.com/Islam-Destiny-Man-Gai-Eaton/9780946621477?ref=grid-view&qid=1622615429289&sr=1-1[/URL] and a little bit of prophetic grace of Muhammad: [MEDIA=youtube]YpJUOTSdvCg:68[/MEDIA] ad "Jesus he problem is that Jesus Christ is the antithesis in every way to that man, so it's pretty hard to explain why he is a good example at all, when Christ himself is the perfect example of love, beauty, truth, power, and authority - without sin. " Yea, well Quran actually states that Jesus was born miraculously from virgin and without "black spot" just as Mary, his mother. but You have to consider the fact, that Christ did not teach something "absolutelly unique", what he stressed and emphasized was the "heart of the Torah" (everything which Jesus teached can be found in the Old Testament), because at that time Jews fell just into external conducting of Torah prescribtions. He tried to make his listeners to focus on the essential things firstly and secondly on other things, just read Sermon on Mount. Jesus was himself a Law- observant Jew, just like apostles and first Christians. But on which basis stands Christic Deity statements? On prophecies? - well all Hebrew prophecies about Messiah can be interpreted in "jewish/islamic" consistent manner. On the miracles? - well read for instance the deeds of Elijah and his disciple Elisha in the Book of Kings ; On resurrection? - well then read about Rainbow body phenomenon in Tibetian Budddhism. [/QUOTE]
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