A Honeymoon From Hell

What caused my now estranged "Orthodox" wife to act the way she did?

  • Being in immigration jail for half a day (my Father's pick)

    Votes: 1 3.1%
  • It was pre-planned - likely a lover (wife's version)

    Votes: 18 56.3%
  • Something else? please elaborate

    Votes: 15 46.9%

  • Total voters
    32
I think this was God’s punishment for Sloth and Lust and I am grateful. I even called my wife “my Pubishment” a few times down in Mexico
I am glad you saw reason. I've seen and been in similar scenarios myself. When it comes to the crazies God has a miraculous way of letting you know. It hurts a bit the first time but it gets better. True wisdom comes from our experiences.
 

Viktor Zeegelaar

Pelican
Orthodox Inquirer
Yeah you are right, I ignored them out of a scarcity mindset of wanting to get married and already having invested too much into the relationship as we were already married and met each other's parents. Some of the were

-"I do not want to be a housewife"
-"You cannot tell me what to do like yoga or fitness"
-Trying to postpone the honeymoon
-Favorite TV show being the degenerate "Grey's Anatomy"
-Saying she wants to adapt to American culture

-Last one was Day 2 at the Honeymoon when she said that "Feminism is good and has erased all stereotypes."

I took a risk and don't blame anyone but myself. Figured I could train her. Guess gambling is my weakness.
Yep this was not a risk but a kamikaze buddy. Learn from it and the lesson here is that anything that starts with game is secular and leads to a disastrous outcome.
 

SingularityOne

Robin
Orthodox
Thanks for the kindness. I did try to bringing up the fact that we were married yet she said "documents mean nothing!" Would love to hear details about your own experience Brother.
(1/2)
So essentially, we met on FB on an Orthodox Christian singles site. We had like 5 or 6 FaceTime's before she said she wanted to meet me in person, so we scheduled a date to do so. I was unsure if I was attracted to her before meeting in person even though we had like day-long FaceTime's at points. I knew we had a connection even though I wasn't sure about how things would go. She revealed to me that she was raped violently when she was around 16 on a FaceTime before we met in person. She said that she felt it was necessary for me to know this before we met in person. This was at like the 4th or 5th FaceTime I believe. She said that she only got enough therapy to get what she needed after the rape (rape kit) and then didn't get any more therapy after that. I asked her if she would be willing to get therapy with someone if they were married and she said she would be willing. She said she just didn't want to do therapy alone. We talked about expectations and wants/needs we had for a relationship with whoever we were going to be with (protector/provider and nurturer/helpmeet). We shared commonalities on pretty much everything. I was still trying to convince myself I was physically attracted to her prior to meeting her though. We met in a place 2/3 hours away from both of our towns because we were long-distance. We got separate hotel rooms and hung out when we got there. We watched a movie and then eventually started making out. We had been flirting via text and FaceTime too about giving each other massages, so we also did that. I wasn't thinking and went too far and we did everything except things below the belt that first night. She was all for it, but I justified to myself that it wasn't that bad to go that far. We then played chess, went bowling, etc. over the next few days we were visiting each other... however, we got more and more physically intimate (still above the belt). I asked her to be my girlfriend and she happily agreed. The second to last day we were being intimate and she got triggered into a trauma response due to something I had said to her when we were playfully being intimate and then she explained to me the entire rape experience in detail. This kinda gave me secondary trauma because of the horrible things that happened to her by that man. I just held her and really felt sad and angry as she told me this. It's hard for me to remember the rest of the night. Then on the last day that we were staying together, we stayed in the same bed and I woke up in the middle of the night and randomly had the urge (which I followed through with, much to my dismay after the fact) to heavy-pet her. She went along with it. I struggled with that because I finally was feeling as if I crossed a boundary and had been sexual with her past what was proper prior to marriage. So, she left the next morning and drove back home.
When I got back home I talked to my spiritual father about everything that had happened and he shared with me what would be best for me to do in the future. When I told her about my moving the boundary back she felt shamed by me in the way I did it (essentially I was flirting with her and sent her a picture of her underwear that she had given me and then she flirted back with me and then I called her to tell her I wanted to move the boundary back to being not as sexual (essentially what would be appropriate if I was with her family with her). She then was distant for a day and then texted me saying that she just wanted me to be consistent with her. So I promised her that I would and that was what I honestly wanted anyways. We kept flirting, but she and I then planned a trip to visit her family. Between this next visit, she told me that she loved me and she got me a really fantastic gift with a bunch of things that hinted at what her family was like and random things she thought I'd like. I thought that her telling me she loved me was pretty soon, but I thought/did love her because I chose to and I told her that I loved her back as well. Fast forward to me meeting her family... I had a great time and her family was really generous. We played a bunch of games and hung out, went to dinner, and did an escape room, etc. On the first night when I got in, we were physically intimate, but we held the boundary that I had set which was no clothes off and just making out. She wanted to go further and I essentially told her that when she pushed to go further I felt disrespected and she essentially cried when she couldn't go further because she said it was difficult. Each night she wanted to be intimate and I essentially caved to going to second base above the clothing because I didn't see that as that bad. I told her that I wanted to marry her on the second to last night of our visit and she said she wanted to marry me as well. We both shared why that was from each of our perspectives and we even talked over dinner about rings, etc. After this visit, I was feeling great and everything. We had already had a 3rd trip set up for her to visit me after this trip. Between this trip and the final one she essentially broke down once on facetime saying that she wanted to go further sexually and she really couldn't communicate well what she was feeling or wanting so I was having to ask so many questions to figure that out. It was exhausting, but I didn't care because I loved her. I think it all had to do with the trauma anyways... So we established a new boundary of nothing below the belt, but everything else was okay. She got an AirBnB because my roommate didn't want a girl staying at our apartment as it was small. This irritated me, but I offered to pay for half of the AirBnB for her, but she said it was okay, so I didn't. When she got in town everything was great. I had a standup comedy show planned for us and we did that. We were going to go to Church the next morning, but she got sick and stayed home while I went to Liturgy. On the way back I got her stuff for her cough and even prior to Liturgy got her dayquil and the like. When I got back she asked me if I still was attracted to her and loved her when she was sick like that and I said yes. We then later that day went to the park because she was feeling better and we played some chess, and then she saw some people dancing (and she's a dancer so we had danced some and we both enjoyed it), so we went over and she danced with me and also (primarily actually) with other dancers at the park because I was a noob and didn't really know how to dance that well. So I just watched for. a majority of the time while she danced with other guys. She looked like she was having fun, so I did;t want to break frame. I started to feel jealous, but I combated those thoughts with prayer. Fast forward to the next day, we had an argument because of some miscommunication and I essentially was being wishywashy about what I was doing for lunch. She was working and I just went to go to the gym and went to get lunch as well. The gym was closed so I came back and I got a bit sick because of some anxiety I was having. But, she said that she felt like her family was so hospitable to me and I wasn't being a provider like I had originally said I would be. She also told me that I hadn't paid her for half of the hotel room from our first visit that I thought I had paid for and I told her I'd pay for it... but she said that it was okay and that I didn't have to. Being in grad school I was doing my best, but that wasn't my intention at all to not be a provider. I fell into not paying my part there on the first trip by accident, but it was noted. That night I had clients and then we went out on a date to a pool bar and the played pool and some other games. I thought it went well. We went back home ad we got intimate again and played truth or dare. As we were playing we started getting intimate again and she wanted to go below the belt on me and I told her no... this triggered a trauma response in her because she felt out of control and I stayed with her and I didn't know what to do. I just put my hand on her and told her that I'd stay with her until she fell asleep. She said that it would be worse if she woke up and I wasn't there... so I left her and went out to my bed out in the living room of the airbnb because I thought she wanted me to leave, but also, I told her that I wouldn't be staying the night with her as a part of the boundary after our first visit when I had established the boundary and I wanted to be consistent for her by not staying with her that night in her bedroom. Looking back, I could have stayed with her by pulling a chair up and holding her hand... but I messed up and didn't do that and made a mistake. After this night is when I started to break frame and all went downhill. After this night she told me in the morning she didn't sleep at all that entire night and that it was the second-worst night she had ever experienced next to the night she was raped. She physically and emotionally distanced from me for the next 3 days. We hung out with my friends that Tuesday night and then went out with a friend of mine and his girlfriend. She was very physically and emotionally distant from me the entire time on those nights except for in small moments where things seemed normal... but then she got distant again. I started getting really anxious, but I was more passive about it all because I felt like I was walking on eggshells now. She kept asking me where I was at through all of this and I just told her that I missed her joy and I wished she'd bring that back. When I asked her where she was at, she essentially said to me she was still figuring it out. This gave me a lot of anxiety and led me to keep asking her "do you still love me, and telling her that when she said that "she was still figuring it out" I felt like she was going to leave me. This distance made me angry one night and she told me that she perceived that I was angry and I just told her I was not angry, but sad that things were the way they were. I then hugged her and she just looked really sad and stoic without emotion. Stone cold. The next day after she was done working I told her that I could go for the night if she needed space, but then she sprung on me that she wanted to wait to get engaged until I was out of grad school. we had planned to get engaged the next month on a trip that I had already bought plane tickets for (non-refundable). But, this trip was still on (or so I thought) and I told her that that was fine so as to give her space and not force anything. That evening we got a couples massage. She said that she was irritated because I was saying that we couldn't take our clothes off in front of each other, but we could get a couples massage...? I thought she'd enjoy it but I got complaints. She said thank you afterwards, but that was when it started to get weird... that night she wanted to be intimate again and get down into lingerie and she wanted me to go below the belt on her. She asked me if I wanted to see her in her underwear that I had seen at the couples massage earlier, but I said "if she wanted to," but then she said "that's what every girl wants to hear" in an irritating way so then I just told her I wanted to see her in her lingerie and that I desired her. She told me she had "shaved for me" and everything. I told her that I wouldn't go below the belt with her and told her that I wanted to, but that I wouldn't... she pouted and got irritated and that's how the night ended. I was super confused because she had been emotionally and physically distant for the prior days and this was a complete back and forth. Fast forward to the next day. My parents came in the next day as they were planning to meet her and we all seemed to have a great time. Everything seemed back to normal. A little distance from her emotionally and physically, but nothing as noticeable as those 3 days prior. We played cards, went to dinner, hung out with my family for two and a half days. She said that she didn't want to be physical anymore those nights when my parents were in and just looked sad each time it was just her and me. When my parents were around she was either stoic or happily talking with them.
 

SingularityOne

Robin
Orthodox
(1/2)
So essentially, we met on FB on an Orthodox Christian singles site. We had like 5 or 6 FaceTime's before she said she wanted to meet me in person, so we scheduled a date to do so. I was unsure if I was attracted to her before meeting in person even though we had like day-long FaceTime's at points. I knew we had a connection even though I wasn't sure about how things would go. She revealed to me that she was raped violently when she was around 16 on a FaceTime before we met in person. She said that she felt it was necessary for me to know this before we met in person. This was at like the 4th or 5th FaceTime I believe. She said that she only got enough therapy to get what she needed after the rape (rape kit) and then didn't get any more therapy after that. I asked her if she would be willing to get therapy with someone if they were married and she said she would be willing. She said she just didn't want to do therapy alone. We talked about expectations and wants/needs we had for a relationship with whoever we were going to be with (protector/provider and nurturer/helpmeet). We shared commonalities on pretty much everything. I was still trying to convince myself I was physically attracted to her prior to meeting her though. We met in a place 2/3 hours away from both of our towns because we were long-distance. We got separate hotel rooms and hung out when we got there. We watched a movie and then eventually started making out. We had been flirting via text and FaceTime too about giving each other massages, so we also did that. I wasn't thinking and went too far and we did everything except things below the belt that first night. She was all for it, but I justified to myself that it wasn't that bad to go that far. We then played chess, went bowling, etc. over the next few days we were visiting each other... however, we got more and more physically intimate (still above the belt). I asked her to be my girlfriend and she happily agreed. The second to last day we were being intimate and she got triggered into a trauma response due to something I had said to her when we were playfully being intimate and then she explained to me the entire rape experience in detail. This kinda gave me secondary trauma because of the horrible things that happened to her by that man. I just held her and really felt sad and angry as she told me this. It's hard for me to remember the rest of the night. Then on the last day that we were staying together, we stayed in the same bed and I woke up in the middle of the night and randomly had the urge (which I followed through with, much to my dismay after the fact) to heavy-pet her. She went along with it. I struggled with that because I finally was feeling as if I crossed a boundary and had been sexual with her past what was proper prior to marriage. So, she left the next morning and drove back home.
When I got back home I talked to my spiritual father about everything that had happened and he shared with me what would be best for me to do in the future. When I told her about my moving the boundary back she felt shamed by me in the way I did it (essentially I was flirting with her and sent her a picture of her underwear that she had given me and then she flirted back with me and then I called her to tell her I wanted to move the boundary back to being not as sexual (essentially what would be appropriate if I was with her family with her). She then was distant for a day and then texted me saying that she just wanted me to be consistent with her. So I promised her that I would and that was what I honestly wanted anyways. We kept flirting, but she and I then planned a trip to visit her family. Between this next visit, she told me that she loved me and she got me a really fantastic gift with a bunch of things that hinted at what her family was like and random things she thought I'd like. I thought that her telling me she loved me was pretty soon, but I thought/did love her because I chose to and I told her that I loved her back as well. Fast forward to me meeting her family... I had a great time and her family was really generous. We played a bunch of games and hung out, went to dinner, and did an escape room, etc. On the first night when I got in, we were physically intimate, but we held the boundary that I had set which was no clothes off and just making out. She wanted to go further and I essentially told her that when she pushed to go further I felt disrespected and she essentially cried when she couldn't go further because she said it was difficult. Each night she wanted to be intimate and I essentially caved to going to second base above the clothing because I didn't see that as that bad. I told her that I wanted to marry her on the second to last night of our visit and she said she wanted to marry me as well. We both shared why that was from each of our perspectives and we even talked over dinner about rings, etc. After this visit, I was feeling great and everything. We had already had a 3rd trip set up for her to visit me after this trip. Between this trip and the final one she essentially broke down once on facetime saying that she wanted to go further sexually and she really couldn't communicate well what she was feeling or wanting so I was having to ask so many questions to figure that out. It was exhausting, but I didn't care because I loved her. I think it all had to do with the trauma anyways... So we established a new boundary of nothing below the belt, but everything else was okay. She got an AirBnB because my roommate didn't want a girl staying at our apartment as it was small. This irritated me, but I offered to pay for half of the AirBnB for her, but she said it was okay, so I didn't. When she got in town everything was great. I had a standup comedy show planned for us and we did that. We were going to go to Church the next morning, but she got sick and stayed home while I went to Liturgy. On the way back I got her stuff for her cough and even prior to Liturgy got her dayquil and the like. When I got back she asked me if I still was attracted to her and loved her when she was sick like that and I said yes. We then later that day went to the park because she was feeling better and we played some chess, and then she saw some people dancing (and she's a dancer so we had danced some and we both enjoyed it), so we went over and she danced with me and also (primarily actually) with other dancers at the park because I was a noob and didn't really know how to dance that well. So I just watched for. a majority of the time while she danced with other guys. She looked like she was having fun, so I did;t want to break frame. I started to feel jealous, but I combated those thoughts with prayer. Fast forward to the next day, we had an argument because of some miscommunication and I essentially was being wishywashy about what I was doing for lunch. She was working and I just went to go to the gym and went to get lunch as well. The gym was closed so I came back and I got a bit sick because of some anxiety I was having. But, she said that she felt like her family was so hospitable to me and I wasn't being a provider like I had originally said I would be. She also told me that I hadn't paid her for half of the hotel room from our first visit that I thought I had paid for and I told her I'd pay for it... but she said that it was okay and that I didn't have to. Being in grad school I was doing my best, but that wasn't my intention at all to not be a provider. I fell into not paying my part there on the first trip by accident, but it was noted. That night I had clients and then we went out on a date to a pool bar and the played pool and some other games. I thought it went well. We went back home ad we got intimate again and played truth or dare. As we were playing we started getting intimate again and she wanted to go below the belt on me and I told her no... this triggered a trauma response in her because she felt out of control and I stayed with her and I didn't know what to do. I just put my hand on her and told her that I'd stay with her until she fell asleep. She said that it would be worse if she woke up and I wasn't there... so I left her and went out to my bed out in the living room of the airbnb because I thought she wanted me to leave, but also, I told her that I wouldn't be staying the night with her as a part of the boundary after our first visit when I had established the boundary and I wanted to be consistent for her by not staying with her that night in her bedroom. Looking back, I could have stayed with her by pulling a chair up and holding her hand... but I messed up and didn't do that and made a mistake. After this night is when I started to break frame and all went downhill. After this night she told me in the morning she didn't sleep at all that entire night and that it was the second-worst night she had ever experienced next to the night she was raped. She physically and emotionally distanced from me for the next 3 days. We hung out with my friends that Tuesday night and then went out with a friend of mine and his girlfriend. She was very physically and emotionally distant from me the entire time on those nights except for in small moments where things seemed normal... but then she got distant again. I started getting really anxious, but I was more passive about it all because I felt like I was walking on eggshells now. She kept asking me where I was at through all of this and I just told her that I missed her joy and I wished she'd bring that back. When I asked her where she was at, she essentially said to me she was still figuring it out. This gave me a lot of anxiety and led me to keep asking her "do you still love me, and telling her that when she said that "she was still figuring it out" I felt like she was going to leave me. This distance made me angry one night and she told me that she perceived that I was angry and I just told her I was not angry, but sad that things were the way they were. I then hugged her and she just looked really sad and stoic without emotion. Stone cold. The next day after she was done working I told her that I could go for the night if she needed space, but then she sprung on me that she wanted to wait to get engaged until I was out of grad school. we had planned to get engaged the next month on a trip that I had already bought plane tickets for (non-refundable). But, this trip was still on (or so I thought) and I told her that that was fine so as to give her space and not force anything. That evening we got a couples massage. She said that she was irritated because I was saying that we couldn't take our clothes off in front of each other, but we could get a couples massage...? I thought she'd enjoy it but I got complaints. She said thank you afterwards, but that was when it started to get weird... that night she wanted to be intimate again and get down into lingerie and she wanted me to go below the belt on her. She asked me if I wanted to see her in her underwear that I had seen at the couples massage earlier, but I said "if she wanted to," but then she said "that's what every girl wants to hear" in an irritating way so then I just told her I wanted to see her in her lingerie and that I desired her. She told me she had "shaved for me" and everything. I told her that I wouldn't go below the belt with her and told her that I wanted to, but that I wouldn't... she pouted and got irritated and that's how the night ended. I was super confused because she had been emotionally and physically distant for the prior days and this was a complete back and forth. Fast forward to the next day. My parents came in the next day as they were planning to meet her and we all seemed to have a great time. Everything seemed back to normal. A little distance from her emotionally and physically, but nothing as noticeable as those 3 days prior. We played cards, went to dinner, hung out with my family for two and a half days. She said that she didn't want to be physical anymore those nights when my parents were in and just looked sad each time it was just her and me. When my parents were around she was either stoic or happily talking with them.
(2/2)
She left on the last day and then she texted me when she got back safely and then that was it. After that day for the next few weeks, there was probably one back and forth texting convo each day alongside our one to two facetimes and playing games on those facetimes each week for two weeks between the next visit and the last one. She seemed happy on the phone calls that we randomly had and said she taught her parents some of the games we had played with my parents on our prior visit. The week before the breakup we were on a facetime call playing a game in the evening and I then brought up that something seemed off and she then shared that she feels alone and controlled in the relationship. I told her that I didn't want that at all and we talked back and forth about that until she said she needed to go to bed. I was really anxious after that conversation and then asked her if she wanted to get counselling with me. Considering we were planning on getting married and all that, I thought it was okay to ask her that. She responded in the evening and said she wasn't wanting to do that with me and started to get really short with me via texting and really formal with me. That Saturday she broke up with me saying that she felt disconnected and insecure in the relationship and told me she didn't see a future with me. She said she didn't see me as fulfilling the protector and provider role and I was really confused as to why that was the case. I only think now, looking back on things, is that was because I emotionally reacted too much to her after the trauma response on the last trip and left her the night of her trauma response. I was utterly confused and didn't know why this happened why it did fully because she was terrible at talking about her inner life. Probab;y due to the trauma. I begged her and everything, but to no avail. I asked her if we could still do our trip to sort things out, but she said no. I then hung up the facetime by telling her "Christ is Risen" because Pascha was the next day. I was anxious still and had no closure. I called her via phone a couple more times to figure things out and ask her what could be done to salvage things but to no avail. She got stone-cold and everything. I gave up and was anxious for the rest of the day. I texted her that next Monday and told her I thought our love was stronger than this, but she told me she just forgave me and held no hard feelings against me, but that that doesn't mean that we should continue the relationship.
Long and the short of it... I'm still trying to process what happened and why things happened how they did... but my first response to you is how I have come to rationalize things. Some things may have been left out from her or my side due to my memory being shot, but this is my story with the persons I most recent;y thought I'd marry. I've learned a lot from the experience... mainly that God is my stability and strength, not my woman. I was idolizing her to a place only where God should be. When my idol was shaken, I was shaken. She is impermanent. I was emotionally reactive and wasn't rooted in God. I was in sin and reacted from my passions. I'm growing through this pain. It's refining and hard. But, I know God allowed this to happen so I could grow stronger as a man in Him. This is my punishment, but I believe this (click link below):

 
(2/2)
She left on the last day and then she texted me when she got back safely and then that was it. After that day for the next few weeks, there was probably one back and forth texting convo each day alongside our one to two facetimes and playing games on those facetimes each week for two weeks between the next visit and the last one. She seemed happy on the phone calls that we randomly had and said she taught her parents some of the games we had played with my parents on our prior visit. The week before the breakup we were on a facetime call playing a game in the evening and I then brought up that something seemed off and she then shared that she feels alone and controlled in the relationship. I told her that I didn't want that at all and we talked back and forth about that until she said she needed to go to bed. I was really anxious after that conversation and then asked her if she wanted to get counselling with me. Considering we were planning on getting married and all that, I thought it was okay to ask her that. She responded in the evening and said she wasn't wanting to do that with me and started to get really short with me via texting and really formal with me. That Saturday she broke up with me saying that she felt disconnected and insecure in the relationship and told me she didn't see a future with me. She said she didn't see me as fulfilling the protector and provider role and I was really confused as to why that was the case. I only think now, looking back on things, is that was because I emotionally reacted too much to her after the trauma response on the last trip and left her the night of her trauma response. I was utterly confused and didn't know why this happened why it did fully because she was terrible at talking about her inner life. Probab;y due to the trauma. I begged her and everything, but to no avail. I asked her if we could still do our trip to sort things out, but she said no. I then hung up the facetime by telling her "Christ is Risen" because Pascha was the next day. I was anxious still and had no closure. I called her via phone a couple more times to figure things out and ask her what could be done to salvage things but to no avail. She got stone-cold and everything. I gave up and was anxious for the rest of the day. I texted her that next Monday and told her I thought our love was stronger than this, but she told me she just forgave me and held no hard feelings against me, but that that doesn't mean that we should continue the relationship.
Long and the short of it... I'm still trying to process what happened and why things happened how they did... but my first response to you is how I have come to rationalize things. Some things may have been left out from her or my side due to my memory being shot, but this is my story with the persons I most recent;y thought I'd marry. I've learned a lot from the experience... mainly that God is my stability and strength, not my woman. I was idolizing her to a place only where God should be. When my idol was shaken, I was shaken. She is impermanent. I was emotionally reactive and wasn't rooted in God. I was in sin and reacted from my passions. I'm growing through this pain. It's refining and hard. But, I know God allowed this to happen so I could grow stronger as a man in Him. This is my punishment, but I believe this (click link below):

People who go through traumatic experiences so young are often emotionally and mentally unsound. Especially sexually and spiritually.
It's hard to salvage a strong relationship from that. Happy you tried. Was this during the conversion process or when you were Orthodox
 

SingularityOne

Robin
Orthodox
People who go through traumatic experiences so young are often emotionally and mentally unsound. Especially sexually and spiritually.
It's hard to salvage a strong relationship from that. Happy you tried. Was this during the conversion process or when you were Orthodox
Yeah, I had hope. Thought I could endure it. It was really sad. But, I take some of the blame for it falling apart. It’s hard to accept that first part of what you say even though I know it to be true. It’s hard to balance compassion with anger.
This was after I had been Orthodox for 2 years. It was my pride and lust that got the best of me. Didn’t think I could fall, but I did. Major learning experience.
 

Philosopher

Kingfisher
Orthodox
(1/2)
So essentially, we met on FB on an Orthodox Christian singles site. We had like 5 or 6 FaceTime's before she said she wanted to meet me in person, so we scheduled a date to do so. I was unsure if I was attracted to her before meeting in person even though we had like day-long FaceTime's at points. I knew we had a connection even though I wasn't sure about how things would go. She revealed to me that she was raped violently when she was around 16 on a FaceTime before we met in person. She said that she felt it was necessary for me to know this before we met in person. This was at like the 4th or 5th FaceTime I believe. She said that she only got enough therapy to get what she needed after the rape (rape kit) and then didn't get any more therapy after that. I asked her if she would be willing to get therapy with someone if they were married and she said she would be willing. She said she just didn't want to do therapy alone. We talked about expectations and wants/needs we had for a relationship with whoever we were going to be with (protector/provider and nurturer/helpmeet). We shared commonalities on pretty much everything. I was still trying to convince myself I was physically attracted to her prior to meeting her though. We met in a place 2/3 hours away from both of our towns because we were long-distance. We got separate hotel rooms and hung out when we got there. We watched a movie and then eventually started making out. We had been flirting via text and FaceTime too about giving each other massages, so we also did that. I wasn't thinking and went too far and we did everything except things below the belt that first night. She was all for it, but I justified to myself that it wasn't that bad to go that far. We then played chess, went bowling, etc. over the next few days we were visiting each other... however, we got more and more physically intimate (still above the belt). I asked her to be my girlfriend and she happily agreed. The second to last day we were being intimate and she got triggered into a trauma response due to something I had said to her when we were playfully being intimate and then she explained to me the entire rape experience in detail. This kinda gave me secondary trauma because of the horrible things that happened to her by that man. I just held her and really felt sad and angry as she told me this. It's hard for me to remember the rest of the night. Then on the last day that we were staying together, we stayed in the same bed and I woke up in the middle of the night and randomly had the urge (which I followed through with, much to my dismay after the fact) to heavy-pet her. She went along with it. I struggled with that because I finally was feeling as if I crossed a boundary and had been sexual with her past what was proper prior to marriage. So, she left the next morning and drove back home.
When I got back home I talked to my spiritual father about everything that had happened and he shared with me what would be best for me to do in the future. When I told her about my moving the boundary back she felt shamed by me in the way I did it (essentially I was flirting with her and sent her a picture of her underwear that she had given me and then she flirted back with me and then I called her to tell her I wanted to move the boundary back to being not as sexual (essentially what would be appropriate if I was with her family with her). She then was distant for a day and then texted me saying that she just wanted me to be consistent with her. So I promised her that I would and that was what I honestly wanted anyways. We kept flirting, but she and I then planned a trip to visit her family. Between this next visit, she told me that she loved me and she got me a really fantastic gift with a bunch of things that hinted at what her family was like and random things she thought I'd like. I thought that her telling me she loved me was pretty soon, but I thought/did love her because I chose to and I told her that I loved her back as well. Fast forward to me meeting her family... I had a great time and her family was really generous. We played a bunch of games and hung out, went to dinner, and did an escape room, etc. On the first night when I got in, we were physically intimate, but we held the boundary that I had set which was no clothes off and just making out. She wanted to go further and I essentially told her that when she pushed to go further I felt disrespected and she essentially cried when she couldn't go further because she said it was difficult. Each night she wanted to be intimate and I essentially caved to going to second base above the clothing because I didn't see that as that bad. I told her that I wanted to marry her on the second to last night of our visit and she said she wanted to marry me as well. We both shared why that was from each of our perspectives and we even talked over dinner about rings, etc. After this visit, I was feeling great and everything. We had already had a 3rd trip set up for her to visit me after this trip. Between this trip and the final one she essentially broke down once on facetime saying that she wanted to go further sexually and she really couldn't communicate well what she was feeling or wanting so I was having to ask so many questions to figure that out. It was exhausting, but I didn't care because I loved her. I think it all had to do with the trauma anyways... So we established a new boundary of nothing below the belt, but everything else was okay. She got an AirBnB because my roommate didn't want a girl staying at our apartment as it was small. This irritated me, but I offered to pay for half of the AirBnB for her, but she said it was okay, so I didn't. When she got in town everything was great. I had a standup comedy show planned for us and we did that. We were going to go to Church the next morning, but she got sick and stayed home while I went to Liturgy. On the way back I got her stuff for her cough and even prior to Liturgy got her dayquil and the like. When I got back she asked me if I still was attracted to her and loved her when she was sick like that and I said yes. We then later that day went to the park because she was feeling better and we played some chess, and then she saw some people dancing (and she's a dancer so we had danced some and we both enjoyed it), so we went over and she danced with me and also (primarily actually) with other dancers at the park because I was a noob and didn't really know how to dance that well. So I just watched for. a majority of the time while she danced with other guys. She looked like she was having fun, so I did;t want to break frame. I started to feel jealous, but I combated those thoughts with prayer. Fast forward to the next day, we had an argument because of some miscommunication and I essentially was being wishywashy about what I was doing for lunch. She was working and I just went to go to the gym and went to get lunch as well. The gym was closed so I came back and I got a bit sick because of some anxiety I was having. But, she said that she felt like her family was so hospitable to me and I wasn't being a provider like I had originally said I would be. She also told me that I hadn't paid her for half of the hotel room from our first visit that I thought I had paid for and I told her I'd pay for it... but she said that it was okay and that I didn't have to. Being in grad school I was doing my best, but that wasn't my intention at all to not be a provider. I fell into not paying my part there on the first trip by accident, but it was noted. That night I had clients and then we went out on a date to a pool bar and the played pool and some other games. I thought it went well. We went back home ad we got intimate again and played truth or dare. As we were playing we started getting intimate again and she wanted to go below the belt on me and I told her no... this triggered a trauma response in her because she felt out of control and I stayed with her and I didn't know what to do. I just put my hand on her and told her that I'd stay with her until she fell asleep. She said that it would be worse if she woke up and I wasn't there... so I left her and went out to my bed out in the living room of the airbnb because I thought she wanted me to leave, but also, I told her that I wouldn't be staying the night with her as a part of the boundary after our first visit when I had established the boundary and I wanted to be consistent for her by not staying with her that night in her bedroom. Looking back, I could have stayed with her by pulling a chair up and holding her hand... but I messed up and didn't do that and made a mistake. After this night is when I started to break frame and all went downhill. After this night she told me in the morning she didn't sleep at all that entire night and that it was the second-worst night she had ever experienced next to the night she was raped. She physically and emotionally distanced from me for the next 3 days. We hung out with my friends that Tuesday night and then went out with a friend of mine and his girlfriend. She was very physically and emotionally distant from me the entire time on those nights except for in small moments where things seemed normal... but then she got distant again. I started getting really anxious, but I was more passive about it all because I felt like I was walking on eggshells now. She kept asking me where I was at through all of this and I just told her that I missed her joy and I wished she'd bring that back. When I asked her where she was at, she essentially said to me she was still figuring it out. This gave me a lot of anxiety and led me to keep asking her "do you still love me, and telling her that when she said that "she was still figuring it out" I felt like she was going to leave me. This distance made me angry one night and she told me that she perceived that I was angry and I just told her I was not angry, but sad that things were the way they were. I then hugged her and she just looked really sad and stoic without emotion. Stone cold. The next day after she was done working I told her that I could go for the night if she needed space, but then she sprung on me that she wanted to wait to get engaged until I was out of grad school. we had planned to get engaged the next month on a trip that I had already bought plane tickets for (non-refundable). But, this trip was still on (or so I thought) and I told her that that was fine so as to give her space and not force anything. That evening we got a couples massage. She said that she was irritated because I was saying that we couldn't take our clothes off in front of each other, but we could get a couples massage...? I thought she'd enjoy it but I got complaints. She said thank you afterwards, but that was when it started to get weird... that night she wanted to be intimate again and get down into lingerie and she wanted me to go below the belt on her. She asked me if I wanted to see her in her underwear that I had seen at the couples massage earlier, but I said "if she wanted to," but then she said "that's what every girl wants to hear" in an irritating way so then I just told her I wanted to see her in her lingerie and that I desired her. She told me she had "shaved for me" and everything. I told her that I wouldn't go below the belt with her and told her that I wanted to, but that I wouldn't... she pouted and got irritated and that's how the night ended. I was super confused because she had been emotionally and physically distant for the prior days and this was a complete back and forth. Fast forward to the next day. My parents came in the next day as they were planning to meet her and we all seemed to have a great time. Everything seemed back to normal. A little distance from her emotionally and physically, but nothing as noticeable as those 3 days prior. We played cards, went to dinner, hung out with my family for two and a half days. She said that she didn't want to be physical anymore those nights when my parents were in and just looked sad each time it was just her and me. When my parents were around she was either stoic or happily talking with them.
Seems like after you became intimate with her, should have not pulled back as sex is addictive for her and it is difficult for her to go without-just like you.
 

SingularityOne

Robin
Orthodox
Seems like after you became intimate with her, should have not pulled back as sex is addictive for her and it is difficult for her to go without-just like you.
Yeah, I was very back and forth on sexual intimacy. My fidelity to God was more important to me though, that’s why I established the boundary after the first trip (although I regret the way that I did that). Part of me regretted moving the boundary back after the first trip, but I know it was for the best in that I was feeling guilty and know that it wasn’t best for my spiritual health. I learned that emotional intimacy is intertwined with sexual intimacy, but they are separate things. If they get intermingled too fast in the relationship, then things go to shit and you lose cognitive, emotional, and spiritual intimacy in that Christ and His Church aren’t kept in the center of the relationship. It was a weakness of my lack of strength of restraint as well. As a man I am to be a master of my own flesh. I let it master me, and I also let her become an idol in the place of God. Never again will I let that happen. However, I know I have the inclination to fall again. I think I’m going to be much more vigilant going forward... unless I fall into pride again, which blinded the hell out of me... and great was my fall due to my attachments to the things that were/are impermanent.

Sex is good, but outside of its propor context I’ve tasted how “bad” it can be in a relationship outside of marriage. It lets the woman control you. The only power a woman has over a man is what he gives to her... and the only power she has is when man has sex with her. Man is the gatekeeper of commitment, woman (should be) is the gatekeeper of sex. If the man holds his list at bay and is restrained, then he holds the power of both and the woman is honored and loved. Ultimately, we want to be known by the other and to know the other, when sex enters the equation before marriage... this mutual knowledge gets distorted and you may make the decision to marry for the wrong reasons.

For curiosity’s sake and for us to help each other be sharpened as men... what do you believe are the right reasons to marry (or even be in a relationship for that matter)?
 

unit414

Robin
Yeah, I was very back and forth on sexual intimacy. My fidelity to God was more important to me though, that’s why I established the boundary after the first trip (although I regret the way that I did that). Part of me regretted moving the boundary back after the first trip, but I know it was for the best in that I was feeling guilty and know that it wasn’t best for my spiritual health. I learned that emotional intimacy is intertwined with sexual intimacy, but they are separate things. If they get intermingled too fast in the relationship, then things go to shit and you lose cognitive, emotional, and spiritual intimacy in that Christ and His Church aren’t kept in the center of the relationship. It was a weakness of my lack of strength of restraint as well. As a man I am to be a master of my own flesh. I let it master me, and I also let her become an idol in the place of God. Never again will I let that happen. However, I know I have the inclination to fall again. I think I’m going to be much more vigilant going forward... unless I fall into pride again, which blinded the hell out of me... and great was my fall due to my attachments to the things that were/are impermanent.

Sex is good, but outside of its propor context I’ve tasted how “bad” it can be in a relationship outside of marriage. It lets the woman control you. The only power a woman has over a man is what he gives to her... and the only power she has is when man has sex with her. Man is the gatekeeper of commitment, woman (should be) is the gatekeeper of sex. If the man holds his list at bay and is restrained, then he holds the power of both and the woman is honored and loved. Ultimately, we want to be known by the other and to know the other, when sex enters the equation before marriage... this mutual knowledge gets distorted and you may make the decision to marry for the wrong reasons.

For curiosity’s sake and for us to help each other be sharpened as men... what do you believe are the right reasons to marry (or even be in a relationship for that matter)?
You are a strong, Godly man with more self-control than I had when younger. I admire you.
 

SingularityOne

Robin
Orthodox
You are a strong, Godly man with more self-control than I had when younger. I admire you.
Glory to God, I appreciate your kindness. I’m right there with you on self-control though. I’m no saint. I made mistakes and shouldn’t have, but I choose to get back up and learn from them because that’s all I can do. After the breakup I bemoaned my fate and wallowed in self-pity... that’s where I realized I was truly not-strong. Thankfully God has shown me where my strength lies through all of this... and it’s in Him. Still making my way down that path to fully realize that existentially, but whenever and however that happens, let the Lord’s Will be done in us brother.
 
Glory to God, I appreciate your kindness. I’m right there with you on self-control though. I’m no saint. I made mistakes and shouldn’t have, but I choose to get back up and learn from them because that’s all I can do. After the breakup I bemoaned my fate and wallowed in self-pity... that’s where I realized I was truly not-strong. Thankfully God has shown me where my strength lies through all of this... and it’s in Him. Still making my way down that path to fully realize that existentially, but whenever and however that happens, let the Lord’s Will be done in us brother.
I think we all have made grave mistakes at one point in life brother. But this is why the Catholic church is so insistent on being wary of occasions of sin. Occasions of sin in our society are ever pernicious and present. I'd argue that it takes a strong man in faith to navigate. I'm not certain how strong I'd be in some of the stories I've read. Lust and pride are very powerful sins in the modern world
 

SingularityOne

Robin
Orthodox
I think we all have made grave mistakes at one point in life brother. But this is why the Catholic church is so insistent on being wary of occasions of sin. Occasions of sin in our society are ever pernicious and present. I'd argue that it takes a strong man in faith to navigate. I'm not certain how strong I'd be in some of the stories I've read. Lust and pride are very powerful sins in the modern world
Yeah, we are in this together. Being in the world but not of it is difficult, but refining. He works all things for good for those who love Him and are called according to His purpose of communion with Him, as well. Please be praying for me man.
 

NickK

Woodpecker
Orthodox
and then she saw some people dancing (and she's a dancer so we had danced some and we both enjoyed it), so we went over and she danced with me and also (primarily actually) with other dancers at the park because I was a noob and didn't really know how to dance that well. So I just watched for. a majority of the time while she danced with other guys. She looked like she was having fun, so I did;t want to break frame. I started to feel jealous, but I combated those thoughts with prayer. Fast forward to the next day, we had an argument because of some miscommunication
I think that was it buddy. You left your future wife dancing with random guys while you acted all cool about it.
You should have intervened. Forcefully if necessary.
 

Augustus_Principe

Woodpecker
(2/2)
She left on the last day and then she texted me when she got back safely and then that was it. After that day for the next few weeks, there was probably one back and forth texting convo each day alongside our one to two facetimes and playing games on those facetimes each week for two weeks between the next visit and the last one. She seemed happy on the phone calls that we randomly had and said she taught her parents some of the games we had played with my parents on our prior visit. The week before the breakup we were on a facetime call playing a game in the evening and I then brought up that something seemed off and she then shared that she feels alone and controlled in the relationship. I told her that I didn't want that at all and we talked back and forth about that until she said she needed to go to bed. I was really anxious after that conversation and then asked her if she wanted to get counselling with me. Considering we were planning on getting married and all that, I thought it was okay to ask her that. She responded in the evening and said she wasn't wanting to do that with me and started to get really short with me via texting and really formal with me. That Saturday she broke up with me saying that she felt disconnected and insecure in the relationship and told me she didn't see a future with me. She said she didn't see me as fulfilling the protector and provider role and I was really confused as to why that was the case. I only think now, looking back on things, is that was because I emotionally reacted too much to her after the trauma response on the last trip and left her the night of her trauma response. I was utterly confused and didn't know why this happened why it did fully because she was terrible at talking about her inner life. Probab;y due to the trauma. I begged her and everything, but to no avail. I asked her if we could still do our trip to sort things out, but she said no. I then hung up the facetime by telling her "Christ is Risen" because Pascha was the next day. I was anxious still and had no closure. I called her via phone a couple more times to figure things out and ask her what could be done to salvage things but to no avail. She got stone-cold and everything. I gave up and was anxious for the rest of the day. I texted her that next Monday and told her I thought our love was stronger than this, but she told me she just forgave me and held no hard feelings against me, but that that doesn't mean that we should continue the relationship.
Long and the short of it... I'm still trying to process what happened and why things happened how they did... but my first response to you is how I have come to rationalize things. Some things may have been left out from her or my side due to my memory being shot, but this is my story with the persons I most recent;y thought I'd marry. I've learned a lot from the experience... mainly that God is my stability and strength, not my woman. I was idolizing her to a place only where God should be. When my idol was shaken, I was shaken. She is impermanent. I was emotionally reactive and wasn't rooted in God. I was in sin and reacted from my passions. I'm growing through this pain. It's refining and hard. But, I know God allowed this to happen so I could grow stronger as a man in Him. This is my punishment, but I believe this (click link below):


First of all, glory to God for you not committing the act of fornication during this relationship. With all of the petting, flirting, make out sessions and sexual text, it was only through the strength God gave you that you did not cave in to fornicate with this woman.

That being said, stories like this are why I now understand why Traditional Catholicism is so strict when it comes to courtship. When I read and heard about the rules and and
boundaries during courtship, I was surprised, since I even heard by most priest that intimate kissing was a sin since it was an act we took pleasure in. Not only that, but it leads us to more serious sins. At most, in a courtship, you should give each other a “friendly” hug and a peck kiss. Stories like this only highlight why we should not dare to get into any sort of romantic intimacy, regardless if there is sexual intimacy or not.

I believe she got upset with you because she figured out she could not control you. To be honest, I can see why she thought you were not consistent and sending her mixed messages. On the one hand, you were flirting with her, then even going as far as petting her, being intimate, sleeping in the same room, etc. on the other hand, you pull away because your soul is warning you, then setting “boundaries”, even though you yourself were playing with fire. She let her nature take control and then thought “how could a man, doing all of this NOT want to fornicate/do sexual things”...The lesson here is that you DO NOT engage in any sort of intimacy, even if you’re able to avoid fornication. All it does is heighten your lust and the woman’s, and it is understandable that after her feelings of lust were ramped up to 10 and you pulled back, she felt hurt.

Rape victims also feel the need to have control over the person their dating sexually because it gives them power and helps them cope. I’m sure this has a lot to do with it as well, but I’m not even going to go into that because you pushed too far in the first place. Next time, be consistent. It seems God has given you the strength to avoid serious mortal sins, but regardless, I would recommend you search online for rules during courtship in order for you to learn how to act accordingly. Thank you for sharing your story. Stories like this help men see what to avoid.
 

NickK

Woodpecker
Orthodox
First of all, glory to God for you not committing the act of fornication during this relationship.
Well... I admit he did show a lot of restrain not to complete the act having gone so far, but let's be honest, it was fornication. The best move would be to limit the interaction a lot earlier. Like in the holding hands and hugs phase, as you said.
 

Eusebius Erasmus

Pelican
Orthodox
No, we dated 7 years ago. I picked her up in Moscow by using Day Game and asking about her phone. Were a couple for a year and had intimacy on and off. When returned to US 5 years ago, was engaged to another girl but still kept in touch with her by Whatsapp and video when the prior engagement broke.

This, in my opinion, is the main problem.

If you trust in God and you're mature enough, then you wouldn't date for 7 years before marriage. You should have gotten engaged within one year of dating, and then married within 2 years.

If a woman truly loves you, then she will want to marry you, instead of waiting for 7 years.

I am sorry to hear of your story OP, and I hope you are okay. This sucks.
 
Top