A Honeymoon From Hell

What caused my now estranged "Orthodox" wife to act the way she did?

  • Being in immigration jail for half a day (my Father's pick)

    Votes: 1 2.8%
  • It was pre-planned - likely a lover (wife's version)

    Votes: 21 58.3%
  • Something else? please elaborate

    Votes: 17 47.2%

  • Total voters
    36
This, in my opinion, is the main problem.

If you trust in God and you're mature enough, then you wouldn't date for 7 years before marriage. You should have gotten engaged within one year of dating, and then married within 2 years.

If a woman truly loves you, then she will want to marry you, instead of waiting for 7 years.

I am sorry to hear of your story OP, and I hope you are okay. This sucks.
You are probably right.
Also, OP states he met her "While doing PUA ins 2013 in Russia" While he later started to transition into a God-fearing Christian, she did not. This is not to criticize OP but it seems this relationship never had solid foundations to start with.
 
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So essentially, we met on FB on an Orthodox Christian singles site. We had like 5 or 6 FaceTime's before she said she wanted to meet me in person, so we scheduled a date to do so. I was unsure if I was attracted to her before meeting in person even though we had like day-long FaceTime's at points. I knew we had a connection even though I wasn't sure about how things would go. She revealed to me that she was raped violently when she was around 16 on a FaceTime before we met in person. She said that she felt it was necessary for me to know this before we met in person. This was at like the 4th or 5th FaceTime I believe. She said that she only got enough therapy to get what she needed after the rape (rape kit) and then didn't get any more therapy after that. I asked her if she would be willing to get therapy with someone if they were married and she said she would be willing. She said she just didn't want to do therapy alone. We talked about expectations and wants/needs we had for a relationship with whoever we were going to be with (protector/provider and nurturer/helpmeet). We shared commonalities on pretty much everything. I was still trying to convince myself I was physically attracted to her prior to meeting her though. We met in a place 2/3 hours away from both of our towns because we were long-distance. We got separate hotel rooms and hung out when we got there. We watched a movie and then eventually started making out. We had been flirting via text and FaceTime too about giving each other massages, so we also did that. I wasn't thinking and went too far and we did everything except things below the belt that first night. She was all for it, but I justified to myself that it wasn't that bad to go that far. We then played chess, went bowling, etc. over the next few days we were visiting each other... however, we got more and more physically intimate (still above the belt). I asked her to be my girlfriend and she happily agreed. The second to last day we were being intimate and she got triggered into a trauma response due to something I had said to her when we were playfully being intimate and then she explained to me the entire rape experience in detail. This kinda gave me secondary trauma because of the horrible things that happened to her by that man. I just held her and really felt sad and angry as she told me this. It's hard for me to remember the rest of the night. Then on the last day that we were staying together, we stayed in the same bed and I woke up in the middle of the night and randomly had the urge (which I followed through with, much to my dismay after the fact) to heavy-pet her. She went along with it. I struggled with that because I finally was feeling as if I crossed a boundary and had been sexual with her past what was proper prior to marriage. So, she left the next morning and drove back home.
When I got back home I talked to my spiritual father about everything that had happened and he shared with me what would be best for me to do in the future. When I told her about my moving the boundary back she felt shamed by me in the way I did it (essentially I was flirting with her and sent her a picture of her underwear that she had given me and then she flirted back with me and then I called her to tell her I wanted to move the boundary back to being not as sexual (essentially what would be appropriate if I was with her family with her). She then was distant for a day and then texted me saying that she just wanted me to be consistent with her. So I promised her that I would and that was what I honestly wanted anyways. We kept flirting, but she and I then planned a trip to visit her family. Between this next visit, she told me that she loved me and she got me a really fantastic gift with a bunch of things that hinted at what her family was like and random things she thought I'd like. I thought that her telling me she loved me was pretty soon, but I thought/did love her because I chose to and I told her that I loved her back as well. Fast forward to me meeting her family... I had a great time and her family was really generous. We played a bunch of games and hung out, went to dinner, and did an escape room, etc. On the first night when I got in, we were physically intimate, but we held the boundary that I had set which was no clothes off and just making out. She wanted to go further and I essentially told her that when she pushed to go further I felt disrespected and she essentially cried when she couldn't go further because she said it was difficult. Each night she wanted to be intimate and I essentially caved to going to second base above the clothing because I didn't see that as that bad. I told her that I wanted to marry her on the second to last night of our visit and she said she wanted to marry me as well. We both shared why that was from each of our perspectives and we even talked over dinner about rings, etc. After this visit, I was feeling great and everything. We had already had a 3rd trip set up for her to visit me after this trip. Between this trip and the final one she essentially broke down once on facetime saying that she wanted to go further sexually and she really couldn't communicate well what she was feeling or wanting so I was having to ask so many questions to figure that out. It was exhausting, but I didn't care because I loved her. I think it all had to do with the trauma anyways... So we established a new boundary of nothing below the belt, but everything else was okay. She got an AirBnB because my roommate didn't want a girl staying at our apartment as it was small. This irritated me, but I offered to pay for half of the AirBnB for her, but she said it was okay, so I didn't. When she got in town everything was great. I had a standup comedy show planned for us and we did that. We were going to go to Church the next morning, but she got sick and stayed home while I went to Liturgy. On the way back I got her stuff for her cough and even prior to Liturgy got her dayquil and the like. When I got back she asked me if I still was attracted to her and loved her when she was sick like that and I said yes. We then later that day went to the park because she was feeling better and we played some chess, and then she saw some people dancing (and she's a dancer so we had danced some and we both enjoyed it), so we went over and she danced with me and also (primarily actually) with other dancers at the park because I was a noob and didn't really know how to dance that well. So I just watched for. a majority of the time while she danced with other guys. She looked like she was having fun, so I did;t want to break frame. I started to feel jealous, but I combated those thoughts with prayer. Fast forward to the next day, we had an argument because of some miscommunication and I essentially was being wishywashy about what I was doing for lunch. She was working and I just went to go to the gym and went to get lunch as well. The gym was closed so I came back and I got a bit sick because of some anxiety I was having. But, she said that she felt like her family was so hospitable to me and I wasn't being a provider like I had originally said I would be. She also told me that I hadn't paid her for half of the hotel room from our first visit that I thought I had paid for and I told her I'd pay for it... but she said that it was okay and that I didn't have to. Being in grad school I was doing my best, but that wasn't my intention at all to not be a provider. I fell into not paying my part there on the first trip by accident, but it was noted. That night I had clients and then we went out on a date to a pool bar and the played pool and some other games. I thought it went well. We went back home ad we got intimate again and played truth or dare. As we were playing we started getting intimate again and she wanted to go below the belt on me and I told her no... this triggered a trauma response in her because she felt out of control and I stayed with her and I didn't know what to do. I just put my hand on her and told her that I'd stay with her until she fell asleep. She said that it would be worse if she woke up and I wasn't there... so I left her and went out to my bed out in the living room of the airbnb because I thought she wanted me to leave, but also, I told her that I wouldn't be staying the night with her as a part of the boundary after our first visit when I had established the boundary and I wanted to be consistent for her by not staying with her that night in her bedroom. Looking back, I could have stayed with her by pulling a chair up and holding her hand... but I messed up and didn't do that and made a mistake. After this night is when I started to break frame and all went downhill. After this night she told me in the morning she didn't sleep at all that entire night and that it was the second-worst night she had ever experienced next to the night she was raped. She physically and emotionally distanced from me for the next 3 days. We hung out with my friends that Tuesday night and then went out with a friend of mine and his girlfriend. She was very physically and emotionally distant from me the entire time on those nights except for in small moments where things seemed normal... but then she got distant again. I started getting really anxious, but I was more passive about it all because I felt like I was walking on eggshells now. She kept asking me where I was at through all of this and I just told her that I missed her joy and I wished she'd bring that back. When I asked her where she was at, she essentially said to me she was still figuring it out. This gave me a lot of anxiety and led me to keep asking her "do you still love me, and telling her that when she said that "she was still figuring it out" I felt like she was going to leave me. This distance made me angry one night and she told me that she perceived that I was angry and I just told her I was not angry, but sad that things were the way they were. I then hugged her and she just looked really sad and stoic without emotion. Stone cold. The next day after she was done working I told her that I could go for the night if she needed space, but then she sprung on me that she wanted to wait to get engaged until I was out of grad school. we had planned to get engaged the next month on a trip that I had already bought plane tickets for (non-refundable). But, this trip was still on (or so I thought) and I told her that that was fine so as to give her space and not force anything. That evening we got a couples massage. She said that she was irritated because I was saying that we couldn't take our clothes off in front of each other, but we could get a couples massage...? I thought she'd enjoy it but I got complaints. She said thank you afterwards, but that was when it started to get weird... that night she wanted to be intimate again and get down into lingerie and she wanted me to go below the belt on her. She asked me if I wanted to see her in her underwear that I had seen at the couples massage earlier, but I said "if she wanted to," but then she said "that's what every girl wants to hear" in an irritating way so then I just told her I wanted to see her in her lingerie and that I desired her. She told me she had "shaved for me" and everything. I told her that I wouldn't go below the belt with her and told her that I wanted to, but that I wouldn't... she pouted and got irritated and that's how the night ended. I was super confused because she had been emotionally and physically distant for the prior days and this was a complete back and forth. Fast forward to the next day. My parents came in the next day as they were planning to meet her and we all seemed to have a great time. Everything seemed back to normal. A little distance from her emotionally and physically, but nothing as noticeable as those 3 days prior. We played cards, went to dinner, hung out with my family for two and a half days. She said that she didn't want to be physical anymore those nights when my parents were in and just looked sad each time it was just her and me. When my parents were around she was either stoic or happily talking with them.
I really commend you for what you are trying to do, marry without first fornicating, but in our decayed society this is extremely difficult.

I can give you two insights:

1. Women cannot tolerate being rejected sexually. This is biological and they cannot help it. So if you get a woman going, via kissing, touching etc. and she decides to let you have her totally and you have two choices - go all the way or break up with her. If a woman gives herself to a man in this way and he does not take her, I think it breaks her ability to bond with that man. She will end up feeling humiliated, hurt and angry. Something below consciousness will decide there is something wrong with you.


2. If you want to marry without fornicating first you will need to find a woman who is already very committed to traditional Christian life. All secular women will insist on sex before marriage - even very conservative, "good girl" types. Most secular women will want the sex for pleasure like men. But even those who are not driven by pleasure will be afraid that unless they have sex first that they might "marry the wrong guy". They will be afraid that after marriage they might find themselves unable to bond with their husband. So they will insist on testing that bonding first - before marriage. This is a matter of not trusting God enough. So if you want to do this the way God intended you will need to first find a woman that has this kind of trust in God.

If you want to make this happen, you're going to have to find a woman who is already for example going to TLM veiled. Then enter into a short, completely chaste courtship, and marry quickly. Historically courtship and engagement was short, and people married young to avoid breaking their commitment to chastity.
 

SingularityOne

Robin
Orthodox
I really commend you for what you are trying to do, marry without first fornicating, but in our decayed society this is extremely difficult.

I can give you two insights:

1. Women cannot tolerate being rejected sexually. This is biological and they cannot help it. So if you get a woman going, via kissing, touching etc. and she decides to let you have her totally and you have two choices - go all the way or break up with her. If a woman gives herself to a man in this way and he does not take her, I think it breaks her ability to bond with that man. She will end up feeling humiliated, hurt and angry. Something below consciousness will decide there is something wrong with you.


2. If you want to marry without fornicating first you will need to find a woman who is already very committed to traditional Christian life. All secular women will insist on sex before marriage - even very conservative, "good girl" types. Most secular women will want the sex for pleasure like men. But even those who are not driven by pleasure will be afraid that unless they have sex first that they might "marry the wrong guy". They will be afraid that after marriage they might find themselves unable to bond with their husband. So they will insist on testing that bonding first - before marriage. This is a matter of not trusting God enough. So if you want to do this the way God intended you will need to first find a woman that has this kind of trust in God.

If you want to make this happen, you're going to have to find a woman who is already for example going to TLM veiled. Then enter into a short, completely chaste courtship, and marry quickly. Historically courtship and engagement was short, and people married young to avoid breaking their commitment to chastity.
Yeah, that’s all good information. Thanks for taking the time to help. It’s a less for the next one. Just trying to integrate the experience into my life as a character building experience to grow from instead of not learning and falling into the same things in the future. I’ll probably be more vigilant and prudent next time around, God willing.
 

Philosopher

Kingfisher
Orthodox
This, in my opinion, is the main problem.

If you trust in God and you're mature enough, then you wouldn't date for 7 years before marriage. You should have gotten engaged within one year of dating, and then married within 2 years.

If a woman truly loves you, then she will want to marry you, instead of waiting for 7 years.

I am sorry to hear of your story OP, and I hope you are okay. This sucks.
Thanks, I am all right, have more time now to develop my business and study scripture/philosophy. Agree with your advice - I broke up with her after the first year of dating. Was engaged to another girl in between.
 

Philosopher

Kingfisher
Orthodox
Yeah, I was very back and forth on sexual intimacy. My fidelity to God was more important to me though, that’s why I established the boundary after the first trip (although I regret the way that I did that). Part of me regretted moving the boundary back after the first trip, but I know it was for the best in that I was feeling guilty and know that it wasn’t best for my spiritual health. I learned that emotional intimacy is intertwined with sexual intimacy, but they are separate things. If they get intermingled too fast in the relationship, then things go to shit and you lose cognitive, emotional, and spiritual intimacy in that Christ and His Church aren’t kept in the center of the relationship. It was a weakness of my lack of strength of restraint as well. As a man I am to be a master of my own flesh. I let it master me, and I also let her become an idol in the place of God. Never again will I let that happen. However, I know I have the inclination to fall again. I think I’m going to be much more vigilant going forward... unless I fall into pride again, which blinded the hell out of me... and great was my fall due to my attachments to the things that were/are impermanent.

Sex is good, but outside of its propor context I’ve tasted how “bad” it can be in a relationship outside of marriage. It lets the woman control you. The only power a woman has over a man is what he gives to her... and the only power she has is when man has sex with her. Man is the gatekeeper of commitment, woman (should be) is the gatekeeper of sex. If the man holds his list at bay and is restrained, then he holds the power of both and the woman is honored and loved. Ultimately, we want to be known by the other and to know the other, when sex enters the equation before marriage... this mutual knowledge gets distorted and you may make the decision to marry for the wrong reasons.

For curiosity’s sake and for us to help each other be sharpened as men... what do you believe are the right reasons to marry (or even be in a relationship for that matter)?
Wanting to start a family. I don’t think the girl itself matter all that much as ing as she is pious and obedient and you like her.
 

Philosopher

Kingfisher
Orthodox
You are probably right.
Also, OP states he met her "While doing PUA ins 2013 in Russia" While he later started to transition into a God-fearing Christian, she did not. This is not to criticize OP but it seems this relationship never had solid foundations to start with.
Agreed, like others have said it was an unfounded risk even thiugh she was a nominal Christian (going to church occasionally) but in the end you can’t wife up a ho
 

SingularityOne

Robin
Orthodox
All women are like that. Yes you can manage them by getting them to follow the Orthodox faith -i failed clearly.
A woman saint is not like that. There are women Saints. Look for women who embody the Holy Spirit and yearn for the Lord.
We, as men, have responsibility to restore our likeness to God that we retain being made in His image. We are to struggle to trust God and discern His will and live it to the best of our ability... to fall and get back up until we die and learn what God’s mercy wills and allows in our lives.
That is what a woman is looking for. Embody the qualities of the Holy Spirit through prayer, in repentance, towards humility and then this failure will be fruitful.
I’m right alongside you brother. I fail everyday. Some days worse than others. But, thank God He allows all for the benefit of our salvation... we just have to trust that that’s the case and yearn to discern His will with wise counsel while trusting His Providence.
 

Philosopher

Kingfisher
Orthodox
Am
A woman saint is not like that. There are women Saints. Look for women who embody the Holy Spirit and yearn for the Lord.
We, as men, have responsibility to restore our likeness to God that we retain being made in His image. We are to struggle to trust God and discern His will and live it to the best of our ability... to fall and get back up until we die and learn what God’s mercy wills and allows in our lives.
That is what a woman is looking for. Embody the qualities of the Holy Spirit through prayer, in repentance, towards humility and then this failure will be fruitful.
I’m right alongside you brother. I fail everyday. Some days worse than others. But, thank God He allows all for the benefit of our salvation... we just have to trust that that’s the case and yearn to discern His will with wise counsel while trusting His Providence.
amen
 

Philosopher

Kingfisher
Orthodox
Update: she said said she was sorry and than asked me to help her with rent. I said the time to apologize was in Mexico and that she should ask for money whoever she is sleeping with instead of me. That made her upset and shut her up.
 

SingularityOne

Robin
Orthodox
Update: she said said she was sorry and than asked me to help her with rent. I said the time to apologize was in Mexico and that she should ask for money whoever she is sleeping with instead of me. That made her upset and shut her up.
Good. No contact. She doesn’t sound like a high quality woman. Become the high quality man in Christ and you will find others that are way better for you brother!
 

griffinmill

Kingfisher
I have no real insight to offer, there will be better advice given by others here, but what you have detailed here is confirmation for me on what I have witnessed from - and heard about - Russians in the past. I had a very brief relationship with my first (and only) Russian a few years ago, and she was the only girl in my past who I would classify as borderline evil. Not to disparage all from a particular race or nationality, but there is something about Russian women that is very cynical, calculating and mercenary. I would never in a million years consider marrying one. Much like my relationship, this has been a valuable lesson for you too.
 

Philosopher

Kingfisher
Orthodox
I have no real insight to offer, there will be better advice given by others here, but what you have detailed here is confirmation for me on what I have witnessed from - and heard about - Russians in the past. I had a very brief relationship with my first (and only) Russian a few years ago, and she was the only girl in my past who I would classify as borderline evil. Not to disparage all from a particular race or nationality, but there is something about Russian women that is very cynical, calculating and mercenary. I would never in a million years consider marrying one. Much like my relationship, this has been a valuable lesson for you too.
Yeah, I am greatful for the lesson
 

Philosopher

Kingfisher
Orthodox
I have no real insight to offer, there will be better advice given by others here, but what you have detailed here is confirmation for me on what I have witnessed from - and heard about - Russians in the past. I had a very brief relationship with my first (and only) Russian a few years ago, and she was the only girl in my past who I would classify as borderline evil. Not to disparage all from a particular race or nationality, but there is something about Russian women that is very cynical, calculating and mercenary. I would never in a million years consider marrying one. Much like my relationship, this has been a valuable lesson for you too.
Ironically-have another Russian ex begging me to marry her LOL
 

SingularityOne

Robin
Orthodox
What about on her birthday in August? She did congratulate me on my birthday.
Pray and ask for discernment from wise, godly men you respect. I would say though, that if she left you and you want her then don't reach out. If you left her and you think she is a quality woman that you want to marry, then reach out. What are your thoughts?
 

Philosopher

Kingfisher
Orthodox
Pray and ask for discernment from wise, godly men you respect. I would say though, that if she left you and you want her then don't reach out. If you left her and you think she is a quality woman that you want to marry, then reach out. What are your thoughts?
I suppose she left me when she left the hotel and got her own. I did stonewall her when she acted up and demanded her own room, which she argued was me "forcing her to leave."

When I told her "to ask for money whoever she is sleeping with and leave me alone" she acted as if I tried to "hurt her."

She obviously has her own point of view, I think Roosh's article about complaining is very relevant here. Don't think it would have mattered if I got her everything she asked for, as her complaining comes from internal insecurity. She obviously turned out unready for marriage or even a serious relationship. Her comment about wanting "to have fun" for a few years are the best indicator of this, she even told this to my Mother, saying that I am too serious.
 
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