Absolutely best takedown/argument against gun control
- Thread starter tenderman100
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Prufrock said:
This isn't really a fair comparison. If you would have provided number of homocides made with guns your argument would make more sense.
The biggest mistake I see gun control advocates make is assuming that any amount of gun legislation in the USA besides total ban and confiscation will have any impact on gun availability. (It worked SO well with weed.) This is especially relevant to suicidal mass murderers since they have every intention of making a mockery of law and life. Ban and confiscation is tantamount to tyranny to the American people. This won't happen without a real fight unless we feminize and socialize more.
People that argue the citizens can't fight the army are ignorant of even the history that has happened in their lifetime (Afghanistan, etc.). Also, anyone who doesn't live in fear and contempt of their government (the heavily armed people who answer to no one) has been brain washed as I see it.
The abolition of gun free zones and putting armed personnel in schools are no brainers to me. Every government facility where gun violence is expected(courts,etc.) has armed guards. If schools have become a place where violence is expected then we need guns there. More guns is the only answer. Armed protection is good enough for a judge but not your child. It's laughable.
People that argue the citizens can't fight the army are ignorant of even the history that has happened in their lifetime (Afghanistan, etc.). Also, anyone who doesn't live in fear and contempt of their government (the heavily armed people who answer to no one) has been brain washed as I see it.
The abolition of gun free zones and putting armed personnel in schools are no brainers to me. Every government facility where gun violence is expected(courts,etc.) has armed guards. If schools have become a place where violence is expected then we need guns there. More guns is the only answer. Armed protection is good enough for a judge but not your child. It's laughable.
Sure, lets arm teachers! That way any pissed off student can just grab it and start shooting kids....
which would lead to a regulation mandating teachers keep their guns locked and stored in a safe place.....
which would lead to "give me a minute Mr. Gunman, I need to get my gun".
Let's not forget, the gun industry will make a killing (revenue-wise) from arming schools.
which would lead to a regulation mandating teachers keep their guns locked and stored in a safe place.....
which would lead to "give me a minute Mr. Gunman, I need to get my gun".
Let's not forget, the gun industry will make a killing (revenue-wise) from arming schools.
Guns can be produced that can only be fired by one person. They are called smart guns. Besides, it doesn't need to be every or any teacher in order to make schools more intimidating targets. Remember, mass shooters are mostly cowards. They don't want a fight. If they know armed resistance awaits them then they'll have incentive to avoid that place. A small number (2-3)of armed people might be enough.
Cattle Rustler said:
Have you even tried to remove a weapon from a holster? Not to mention most angry kids would forget about the safety unless they've used a weapon before. Smart locking weapons bring ignored here.
The British during revolutionary america banned gunpowder and weapons imports and start confiscating weapons in 1774-1776. A part of me wants to see some tyranny placed onto our gun control friends. They need to see what the feeling of being neutered is like.
Good read on how the Brits tried to control America with gun control http://www.davekopel.org/2A/LawRev/american-revolution-against-british-gun-control.html
The EPA also closed down the last American lead pewter. All bullets are imported now. Any American that desires to limit gun ownership does not deserve the rights and privileges afforded by the constitution simply on the premise that they're useless deadweight in defending the very doctrine that promotes those rights.
Most anti-gun types have never fired one and don't know jack shit about guns. And if that's the case, I don't care about your ignorant opinions on the issue. Goes double if you think we can legislate away guns in America. (Conversely, I've met people who are knowledgeable and dislike guns, but we generally end up agreeing after awhile.)
I don't think that arming teachers is the right solution. I'll admit that guns do create a "culture of fear" for those who are unfamiliar with them. It also takes away from the teacher's role as an educator. Other than fixing the societal issues at the root of these shootings, the next best move would be a school marshal or police liaison officer. But then money is a factor.
I don't think that arming teachers is the right solution. I'll admit that guns do create a "culture of fear" for those who are unfamiliar with them. It also takes away from the teacher's role as an educator. Other than fixing the societal issues at the root of these shootings, the next best move would be a school marshal or police liaison officer. But then money is a factor.
This is my opinion based on my experience, and that opinion is, if you're going to be using the arm teachers/students/yourself argument, it doesn't hold much weight with me, here's why:
I have a background in law enforcement and I switched career paths a few years ago and am currently working in education at a major city public school. I still have my conceal and carry license, but I would never take a gun outside the home except to the range for practice (it's something fun I do with the bros from time to time). I've been in a lot of situations, at no point when I wasn't in uniform would a weapon have made a positive difference.
Conceal and Carry: If you've taken any weapon training you know it takes time to draw and fire your weapon. Even someone trained and ready takes enough time to draw as it takes an attacker to move roughly 21ft. The question then becomes, when was the last time you were attacked by someone standing 21ft away from you? You could always fire on an attacker after they jump/rob/assault you (assuming they didn't take your weapon away in the process), but have fun explaining in court why you shot someone whose back was turned. Conceal and Carry is mostly a feel good measure to make people feel safe.
Arming teachers: I've worked at schools where a stern look and a change in vocal tone is enough to bring students to the brink of tears. I'm currently working at a school where 1/30 students has had experience with juvenile corrections before turning their thirteenth birthday. School is just a place for them to stay warm in winter and get a free lunch. These kids aren't the ones I'd be worried about concerning weapons in school, it's the hangers on who feel the need to impress them that would worry me. The ones who start fires, assault teachers, destroy property, etc... These are the kids who sit there all day long thinking of ways to raise hell. They're going to be the ones who try to get their hands on a school provided weapon. We already have one officer in the building all through the day, and two others that usually stop in while on patrol. These officers have had kids try to snatch their weapons before, and they will again. Remember, these aren't adults, sometimes logic doesn't even factor into the decision process.
What about locking the weapons up? Sounds like a good plan, until you actually work in an understaffed school where you're running around doing lunch duty, doing the bus line, directing traffic between classes, dealing with fights, injured/sick students/a myriad range of behavior problems and suddenly you're on the opposite side of the school from the weapons when you need one while every teacher/staff member/student in your path is freaking out, and you may encounter the shooter on your way. If the shooter attends the school, they'll probably know where the guns are and either a)steer clear of the area, or b)head straight for it.
Most active shooters kill themselves when confronted: False. More shooters get taken down by law enforcement. Not by much, however. Forty six percent to forty. Source
Another note, in a high stress situation, your perception of the situation changes. If you've ever been in a violent situation you'll know that sometimes you miss people shouting in your ear because a threat had your complete and undivided attention. Officers entering a school to see someone running down the hall with a weapon in hand might be overridden with emotion and fire on an armed staff member trying to confront the shooter. Have fun keeping your job and your mental state intact after that.
Current teacher training (at least where I've worked, can't speak for everywhere) has teachers instructed to enter lock down mode if a code red alert goes out. Lock the doors, cover up the windows, turn off the lights, and wait for the all clear. With my background, that would be my plan regardless. There's roughly one hundred schools in my district, some of these schools lack education basics like books in the school library. I'm not sure where the funding would come from to train and equip teachers to confront an active shooter, but without a serious increase in the budget I'd put it super low on the list of priorities.
I have a background in law enforcement and I switched career paths a few years ago and am currently working in education at a major city public school. I still have my conceal and carry license, but I would never take a gun outside the home except to the range for practice (it's something fun I do with the bros from time to time). I've been in a lot of situations, at no point when I wasn't in uniform would a weapon have made a positive difference.
Conceal and Carry: If you've taken any weapon training you know it takes time to draw and fire your weapon. Even someone trained and ready takes enough time to draw as it takes an attacker to move roughly 21ft. The question then becomes, when was the last time you were attacked by someone standing 21ft away from you? You could always fire on an attacker after they jump/rob/assault you (assuming they didn't take your weapon away in the process), but have fun explaining in court why you shot someone whose back was turned. Conceal and Carry is mostly a feel good measure to make people feel safe.
Arming teachers: I've worked at schools where a stern look and a change in vocal tone is enough to bring students to the brink of tears. I'm currently working at a school where 1/30 students has had experience with juvenile corrections before turning their thirteenth birthday. School is just a place for them to stay warm in winter and get a free lunch. These kids aren't the ones I'd be worried about concerning weapons in school, it's the hangers on who feel the need to impress them that would worry me. The ones who start fires, assault teachers, destroy property, etc... These are the kids who sit there all day long thinking of ways to raise hell. They're going to be the ones who try to get their hands on a school provided weapon. We already have one officer in the building all through the day, and two others that usually stop in while on patrol. These officers have had kids try to snatch their weapons before, and they will again. Remember, these aren't adults, sometimes logic doesn't even factor into the decision process.
What about locking the weapons up? Sounds like a good plan, until you actually work in an understaffed school where you're running around doing lunch duty, doing the bus line, directing traffic between classes, dealing with fights, injured/sick students/a myriad range of behavior problems and suddenly you're on the opposite side of the school from the weapons when you need one while every teacher/staff member/student in your path is freaking out, and you may encounter the shooter on your way. If the shooter attends the school, they'll probably know where the guns are and either a)steer clear of the area, or b)head straight for it.
Most active shooters kill themselves when confronted: False. More shooters get taken down by law enforcement. Not by much, however. Forty six percent to forty. Source
Another note, in a high stress situation, your perception of the situation changes. If you've ever been in a violent situation you'll know that sometimes you miss people shouting in your ear because a threat had your complete and undivided attention. Officers entering a school to see someone running down the hall with a weapon in hand might be overridden with emotion and fire on an armed staff member trying to confront the shooter. Have fun keeping your job and your mental state intact after that.
Current teacher training (at least where I've worked, can't speak for everywhere) has teachers instructed to enter lock down mode if a code red alert goes out. Lock the doors, cover up the windows, turn off the lights, and wait for the all clear. With my background, that would be my plan regardless. There's roughly one hundred schools in my district, some of these schools lack education basics like books in the school library. I'm not sure where the funding would come from to train and equip teachers to confront an active shooter, but without a serious increase in the budget I'd put it super low on the list of priorities.
InternationPlayboy
Crow
To Luring, you're basically saying that homicide rates aren't linked to gun possession, so either way the map still seems to confirm that you can still have high homicide rates with no guns.
Look around us. The government is spying on it's citizens. They already have so much power. Would you want them to be the only ones with arms as well? I know I don't. Not to mention part of the way we gained our independence was because of armed citizens. In the American revolution, civilians played a roll in gunning down the British.
Look around us. The government is spying on it's citizens. They already have so much power. Would you want them to be the only ones with arms as well? I know I don't. Not to mention part of the way we gained our independence was because of armed citizens. In the American revolution, civilians played a roll in gunning down the British.
Shotgun Styles said:
Malekhit..you are canadian? Marc Lapine and Ecole Polytechnique gets brought up every other day among other Canadian School Shootings
[Draft post removed by moderator.]
Cattle Rustler said:
Lets not start making ridiculous arguments to try to prove your point. Everything you said is taken to the extreme.
Arm one or two teachers, with the gun in a lock box in their desk.
Hardly makes it so any student can grab their gun and start shooting people.
It also takes all of ten seconds or less to get the gun, so again your point of "wait a second while I get my gun" is invalid.
Don't let the students know which teachers are armed, keep the gun in a lockbox in their desk. Easy as that.
Will it stop all school shootings? No. But it will definitely help stop some, and I'd guess quite a bit. And less people would die once the gunmen was met with opposition.
SheriffBart said:
This is one of the best argument against gun control IMO. The day they make guns illegal or if the government were to confiscate them would not mean the end of guns. On the contrary what would happen is the only people who would now own guns besides law enforcement would be criminals since they dont care about the legal ramifications of owning/carrying a gun and as criminals have access to getting them on the black market.
Guns will never go away any attempst to restrict(make illegal) gun ownership just gives criminals more power over regular citizens who are left defenseless without the ability to protect themselves.
Consider some of the most dangerous cities(i.e. chicago) in the US are also places with the some of strictest gun laws.
Malekhit
Woodpecker
Prufrock said:
USA have over 89 guns per capita soooooo its almost double to any other country in the world therefore your argument is invalid....
We also don't talk about homicide but school shootings.... also these are homicide by using everything from sticks to guns, so it just irrelevant to the topic subject.
Malekhit
Woodpecker
wiscanada said:
I'm Polish Canadian. You linked 6 shootings which 2 were in 70's 1 were in 80's and 2 were in 2000 which latest one was in 2006. so in period of 40 years you had only 6 shootings...
Ohh well lets compare Canadian school shootings to USA school shootings. I Can't even count because every year you have so many of them, here is the link enjoy scrolling down. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States
here is Malasian proverb "An ant across the ocean is seen, but not the elephant nearby."
houston said:
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