Adventure or Money? and life options for those in their mid 20's. Advice please
- Thread starter WhatTheFuck
- Start date
Ice said:
You absolutely can weigh your 40s (or 50s, or 60s) against your 20s when talking about career priorities. Being realistic about things, for most men, whatever lifestyle choices they make involve making sacrifices. If you fuck around in your 20s partying/traveling you'll be unlikely to be retiring at 40. And vice versa, if you're working your balls off to retire at 40 its unlikely you'll be spending your 20s partying/traveling the world. The dream is of course finding something in the middle. A job thats fun, gives you enough time off to travel extensively, pays well, and develops your career. But that's a rare beast.
Most men absolutely will want to "socialise and fuck foreign girls when you're in your 40ies". But its a hell of a lot harder to do that in your 40s than in your 20s, regardless of financial success. Ignoring the possibilities of life getting in the way as mentioned above; socially, all of your friends will likely be married with kids by this stage, so off the scene. Girl-wise, is it possible to game 21 year old girls as a successful 45 year old? Absolutely. But its orders of magnitudes harder than doing so as a fit 25 year old. In the vast majority of party/travel environments I would not be betting on the older man in that 1v1.
Plus, 90% of people traveling the world/partying are aged 18-30. I just don't believe being surrounded by people 20 years younger than you would be half as much fun on any level, when compared to partying/traveling with your peer group. Aside from getting laid, its just much easier to make friends, have drunken conversations with randomers etc.
Interesting back and forth over the last few posts.
I suppose it comes down to knowing what you want out of life and how best to obtain it. Almost all life mistakes can be categorized as "didn't know what you truly wanted" or "didn't do the right things to get what you want". If your main goal in life is to party and fuck, then working your ass off to early retire at 40 is the wrong move. You'd be better off living a YOLO lifestyle as a bartender and hoping to OD by 40 so you can avoid the long term consequences.
That's why I don't think there's a universally right or wrong answer - only right or wrong answers for each individual. I tend to fall in wwt and Ice's camp, but I don't see anything wrong with zatara's perspective. All comes down to what you want out of life.
I suppose it comes down to knowing what you want out of life and how best to obtain it. Almost all life mistakes can be categorized as "didn't know what you truly wanted" or "didn't do the right things to get what you want". If your main goal in life is to party and fuck, then working your ass off to early retire at 40 is the wrong move. You'd be better off living a YOLO lifestyle as a bartender and hoping to OD by 40 so you can avoid the long term consequences.
That's why I don't think there's a universally right or wrong answer - only right or wrong answers for each individual. I tend to fall in wwt and Ice's camp, but I don't see anything wrong with zatara's perspective. All comes down to what you want out of life.
zatara said:
The problem is, this is very theoretical. Yeah you can work your balls off in your 20ies, but if you're gonna retire at 40 is far from certain. Many people work very hard in their 20ies and 30ies and don't necessarily get that far. As I mentioned above, you need very specific skills and talents for that.
Also, most people who really make a lot of $$$ by 40 never really considered to "just travel and fuck around" in the first place. They want to work and make $$$ and that's why they're successful at it.
If you're 25 and really want to travel, party, want a location-independent lifestyle, I really doubt that you will be able to make a top 1% career in wall street. Just from a personality perspective alone.
But of course there are exceptions.
I just think you need to follow the talents & interests that you have and build a long term career with that. You need to work with what you have. There are some people for whom that means a high-end job in finance and banking, and they will maybe retire at 40. But that is definitely a minority. But others can go down another career path, work hard, but also have fun in the process. You can easily party & travel in your 20ies & 30ies and at the same time build your skills and have a good career.
Peregrine said:
Yeah but that is exactly not what you should be doing. If you want to party and fuck as a lifestyle no problem, but don't hope to OD by 40 lol. Build your life up in that direction. Example: Kirill Was Here. He made a career exactly out of that lifestyle. If your talent really lies in partying and fucking, then try to build something around that lifestyle. It's also not easy, of course, but as a person who really likes to party and fuck you have a better chance at succeeding at that than having a top 1% career in wall street.
@Peregrine I completely agree with that. I can respect someone who prioritizes partying in their 20s, and does it right. Or I can equally respect someone who prioritizes their career in their 20s. I think both won't have regrets later in life - both have a goal, and they decide to chase it. But its the people who fall into the vague middleground who are never really sure what they want that suffer. Not much point slaving away in a job youre only 'meh' about 50 weeks a year to live the party lifestyle 2 weeks a year...
@Ice I absolutely agree retiring at 40 is far from realistic. I just think thats the goal a lot of men in their 20s set themselves when trying to justify working their balls off in their 20s - I've seen it posted here a lot for instance. So I used that as my example. I agree with almost everything else in your last 2 posts too, re: doing what you're good at (and not OD'ing at 40!) etc.
I just think its hard for most men to "easily party & travel in your 20ies & 30ies and at the same time build your skills and have a good career." - especially in the US. Most well paying jobs in the US don't give you more than a couple weeks leave a year at best, which just isn't anywhere near enough to properly experience life. That's why I always recommend people spend a few years post-college working as a barman, traveling the world etc. Doing that you obtain a good chunk of life experience that you likely never would otherwise, then can settle into the working world in your late 20s.
Essentially, my tl;dr is probably the working world will wait a few years - partying/travel will not. Better to maximise each in turn, than half-arse at both.
@Ice I absolutely agree retiring at 40 is far from realistic. I just think thats the goal a lot of men in their 20s set themselves when trying to justify working their balls off in their 20s - I've seen it posted here a lot for instance. So I used that as my example. I agree with almost everything else in your last 2 posts too, re: doing what you're good at (and not OD'ing at 40!) etc.
I just think its hard for most men to "easily party & travel in your 20ies & 30ies and at the same time build your skills and have a good career." - especially in the US. Most well paying jobs in the US don't give you more than a couple weeks leave a year at best, which just isn't anywhere near enough to properly experience life. That's why I always recommend people spend a few years post-college working as a barman, traveling the world etc. Doing that you obtain a good chunk of life experience that you likely never would otherwise, then can settle into the working world in your late 20s.
Essentially, my tl;dr is probably the working world will wait a few years - partying/travel will not. Better to maximise each in turn, than half-arse at both.
WalkingMan
Woodpecker
WestIndianArchie said:
"My real life hasn't started yet..."
WalkingMan
Woodpecker
Peregrine said:
No one should ever be hoping they OD by 40 for any reason. I would never wanna be that guy. You can be smart with your money while still being a bartender and making bartender money. Just like a pornstar can start his or her own adult video production studio and website.
Or they can waste their money on drugs and other frivolous things. It's up to them.
Peregrine said:
Or even worse: "Did what everyone else wanted and expected of him."
Unfortunately many men live under this category, especially in America. I have many old acquaintances just like this. Enslaved to their family, friends, spouse, girlfriend. A slave for those around him fighting against his own free will. These types are the perfect corporate paper pushers and are the co-workers you will have if you end up deciding to go the corporate slave route. Remember you are the sum of those you surround yourself with. I thought these losers would never effect me, but their grey, depressing masses inevitably do.
As for this debate.
If there is one piece of advice I always receive from all the older guys I meet (I'm in my 20s), is that I should cherish and not waste a moment of my youth. I took this as simple boilerplate life advice until recently when I experienced true freedom for the first time in my life.
I wasted a few years of my life in corporate management consulting slavery and I saw what happened to the guys that served longer sentences. They looked like shit and had horribly uninspiring and mediocre lives despite having a large number in a bank account under their name, a "title" and "job security" (whatever the fuck that actually means in 2016).
Long have I decided I would rather hustle to make $40k a year with basically unlimited freedom than make $80k trading in my time, freedom and sanity working back at my old corporate slave yard. Obviously I'm working to do way better than that money wise, but for now there is no realistic amount of money that makes the alternative life appealing to me.
There is no universally right answer, but for guys who are on this forum I think there probably is one and it's not the route of mediocrity.
RaulValdez739
Woodpecker
I'll weigh in since I'm also in my mid 20's.
It really comes down to what you want out of life. Do you want to be a corporate drone? Then by all means do a 9-5 job and have your two weeks of vacation. If you desire a Independent location lifestyle with ample travel opportunities, then choose the alternative paths to the independence you desire. You may not make alot of money in the alternative path but at the same time there are no guarantees if you choose a traditional path. Choose carefully and cherish your 20's. You are only young once.
It really comes down to what you want out of life. Do you want to be a corporate drone? Then by all means do a 9-5 job and have your two weeks of vacation. If you desire a Independent location lifestyle with ample travel opportunities, then choose the alternative paths to the independence you desire. You may not make alot of money in the alternative path but at the same time there are no guarantees if you choose a traditional path. Choose carefully and cherish your 20's. You are only young once.
People taking issue with my suggestions of ODing at 40 missed my point. It was intended to be illustrative. If you want to party, the worst possible path you could take is to grind away for XX years until you are (probably) 55 or 65 and too old to enjoy a good party. Even going full YOLO and dying at 40 is better. And WalkingMan, I disagree that no one should hope to OD by 40 for any reason. It's not what I want and it's obviously not what you want, but who are we to say that that's not the best way for a particular individual to enjoy their time on this earth? That's why it's so important for everyone to figure out what they want and how to get it. I highly recommend reading the first two sections of Ray Dalio's Principles for more on this topic.
Designate, I agree, with the caveat that a large enough salary can fund an early retirement. I'd rather have 40K with nearly no constraints than 80K in a corporate pen. But 200K? I could live like a pauper and squirrel away the rest. In not too long, I'd be financially independent, i.e. completely free with a reasonable lifestyle to boot.
Designate, I agree, with the caveat that a large enough salary can fund an early retirement. I'd rather have 40K with nearly no constraints than 80K in a corporate pen. But 200K? I could live like a pauper and squirrel away the rest. In not too long, I'd be financially independent, i.e. completely free with a reasonable lifestyle to boot.
worldwidetraveler said:
Not that the pay off was millions of dollars,
But that the pay off did not come for millions of people.
I thought that was obvious the way I wrote it.
The pay off - the house, the 2 cars, the wife/spouse, 2.5 kids - Millions and millions of people in the richest country in the world have not achieved this despite doing everything they were told to do to get it.'
When you have numbers like that, it's not individual choice or some sort of moral failing that RVF likes to apply to things it doesn't like.
It's systemic. It's bigger than choosing to be a civil engineer and not a electrical engineer.
No one with a history degree expects to be living with their parents in their mid 20's. A person with a business degree does not expect to be assistant managing an Enterprise Rental Car spot.
Most of you guys are young.
I remember when tech crashed and those newly minted CS degrees became hard sells. 2-3 years of not doing much, of doing Tech Support, and some guy younger than you gets to work at a start up because he graduated into a better economy.
Despite you knowing more. The unproven guy gets a phone call, and your resume just sits on monster, getting calls from insurance companies looking for salesmen.
I'm old enough to remember when the oil crash came too.
You guys don't really see how the ladder to success is not only broken, but an illusion.
The same matrix that exists when it comes to banging girls exists for making money.
What you've learned all of your life serves the society, not you personally.
WIA
WalkingMan
Woodpecker
Peregrine said:
Sure. I'll check it out.
I'm 25 almost 26, moved to vegas this week and got a place a block off the strip. I'm looking for a career here with my Econ Degree and customer service experience. I'm also looking to goto the night clubs here a few nights a week and party. I almost went the esl/travel route but decided I can international when I'm older and have better career experience.
WIA, I agree that it's systemic and that the same matrix exists for making money as the one that exists for banging girls. But are you saying that a young guy can't figure out the matrix for making money in the same way as he can for banging girls? I think the bar was raised for both, but young guys can still get paid and get laid if they hustle and leverage their individual abilities.
Edit: I agree that it's not a moral failing if you gave it an honest shot and get busted out by the dealer. Sometimes you manage to get to 20 and the dealer gets the card for 21. That's life.
Edit: I agree that it's not a moral failing if you gave it an honest shot and get busted out by the dealer. Sometimes you manage to get to 20 and the dealer gets the card for 21. That's life.
WestIndianArchie said:
I misread your original post. You are right, it should have been obvious.
The American dream doesn't exist the same way it was when you and I were younger. The days of getting any 4 year degree and getting a decent job have long been over.
I was in the middle of that tech crash you mentioned. I saw the contracts and jobs dried up and move over to India. Before the crash, I was able to throw out a resume and have people calling me up for 100 an hour contracts within hours. After, crickets.
That was the main reason I ended up working for myself and have been doing so for over a decade now. Those skills I learned from my time working on those large tech projects set me up for my own business.
Software will always be in demand. Even when things crash like they did those years back. I would say those kids with computer degrees that had to rough out that crash are probably doing pretty good right now if they stayed in the field.
After the crash, I started learning direct mail and salesmanship. Then I turned to the internet. It took a long time to gain all of those skills.
If it wasn't for that time in the tech field, I'm not sure where I would be. Maybe dead broke in Thailand with a bunch of kids... Which brings me back to my original point.
I disagree. I don't see how doing my own thing and enjoying the shit out of it is serving anyone but myself. I don't have sympathy for people who can't adapt.
Heres the thing about retiring by 35 which is a dream of a lot of people. The people doing it are almost exclusively couples. Why? Live on one income bank the other.
Saving $1,000 a month is a retirement plan not a retire by 35 plan. Add another 4k or so to that a month and you are in business for early retirement. For a single guy to save 5k a month hes probably gotta make atleast 120k a year before taxes and then live very minimalist. That is not going to be easy for most people.
You need a highly valued skill if you want to retire early.
I've battled the decision to walk away and party my brains out for 10 years travelling the world or work to the point where my investments will be sustainable to withhold the level of spending I wish to make. I chose to work. For me it's paying off. In most things in life there are going to be people who win and people who lose. It's a gamble for most people as to whether it pays off because most people are employees and that places some restriction on how much control of their destiny that they have.
I'd recommend just learning a skill you can do remotely after saving a modest investment portfolio. Spend 5 years save 100k. Invest it in a rental or equities etc. Don't touch it though and go live on your remote income. That seems the most practical way for people to get the best of both worlds to me.
Saving $1,000 a month is a retirement plan not a retire by 35 plan. Add another 4k or so to that a month and you are in business for early retirement. For a single guy to save 5k a month hes probably gotta make atleast 120k a year before taxes and then live very minimalist. That is not going to be easy for most people.
You need a highly valued skill if you want to retire early.
I've battled the decision to walk away and party my brains out for 10 years travelling the world or work to the point where my investments will be sustainable to withhold the level of spending I wish to make. I chose to work. For me it's paying off. In most things in life there are going to be people who win and people who lose. It's a gamble for most people as to whether it pays off because most people are employees and that places some restriction on how much control of their destiny that they have.
I'd recommend just learning a skill you can do remotely after saving a modest investment portfolio. Spend 5 years save 100k. Invest it in a rental or equities etc. Don't touch it though and go live on your remote income. That seems the most practical way for people to get the best of both worlds to me.
WestIndianArchie said:
You have mentioned between this thread and others now CS degrees and programming is a commodity.
Please do not scare guys away from something that makes young guys millionaires everyday and a profession that has recruiters calling your phone off the hook once you have one solid thing on your resume with an easy ability to make $120k+ with as little as 3 years experience if you work hard even with an education from a middling school, without needing any post-grad education or debt.
A lot of my lawyer friends or family friends are usually one of two camps: Don't really like their job, or they love it and have no life are unhealthy and are very dull people that bring work all the time.
I would be a talented programmer rather than a talented lawyer any day of the week for reference purely for the lifestyle. One has to do with reviewing rules and arguing about made up rules. The other is going to do unbelievable shit in our lifetime.
I am not talking about Facebook or Google jobs either. There are thousands of companies.
Not to mention the unlimited upside of creating a licensed product and scaling or selling out.
Is it worth even the added bonus of stable high paying employment that is worldwide remote capable? Or no dress code most places. Or the fact once you are good at programming you can do it pretty well hung over. Not the same if you need to be on the phone or in front of people presenting, I've had a face to face customer relation sales job with a tie - it's awful for the long haul.
Or the fact if you enjoy what you work on and are good it really isn't much different than playing a musical instrument or a puzzle game while getting paid.
Tech is invading everywhere we are the last job because we are the job killers. Save for whores.
Only advanced AI will have a chance at taking out the top 20% of programmers from having very lucrative jobs with tons of positions to choose from. At that point 50 years or more from now we won't having a working society anymore. It will be universal wage or death. For now, easy to be top 20% because at least 50% of programmers are horrible at dealing with people, clients, or managing other programmers, and they refuse to keep on top of their skills.