Animals and God

[prisonplanet]

Hopefully this thread is OK in the OT forums. I know the non-orthodox general forum was removed, so maybe I'm wrong to post this here. If so, feel free to remove it, Roosh. I

Anyway,as a dog lover/owner who also works with dogs, I had a conversation recently with another dog lover/owner. One thing that bothered her about Christianity was the idea that animals do not go to Heaven. She was turned off by a sermon in which the pastor said that only humans have souls, so her dog was not going to Heaven (nor was he going to Hell).

I post this mostly just to start a conversation - anything relating to animals and God/Christianity, so feel free to post any thoughts along these lines.

To initiate, here are some things I discussed with this other dog owner.

For one, I don't have any answers, but I've nearly finished reading the Bible cover to cover, and I naturally tune in quite a bit with things relating to animals. Partly because I want to be able to have a knowledgeable conversation when working with Christian dog owners, and also because I just love animals, especially dogs. These are four main points of interest for me. Feel free to share counterpoints and disagreement, as again, I absolutely could be wrong.

1) It appears that animals know who God is, can hear his voice, and they obey him. I'm just going off memory here, so I only have two Biblical accounts. There is Noah and his ark. The animals filed in two by two. It wasn't Noah filing them in. He basically just opened the doors. God must have led them in. And it doesn't sound like he pushed or carried them in. They walked in on their own, suggesting they simply heard God tell them what to do and did it. The second is Jonah and the whale. There is a passage where after the three days in the belly of the whale, God tells the whale to spit out Jonah and so the whale does as commanded.

2) Animals obey man because God tells them to. Man was given dominion over animals. The general sentiment is that animals (let's say dogs) listen to their owner because to the dog, the man is like their God. This idea flips that - my dog knows who the real God is, but she obeys me because God said she was supposed to.

3) Far as I can tell, animals indeed do not have souls, so they not go to Heaven or Hell. This one may be obvious for some, for others it may be offensive, but it seems to be true. But there really is no reason to be sad about this. Animals seem to have no issue obeying God, so they obviously trust his CHARACTER. They know that he is a good God worthy of obeying, so the problem is with us not trusting him and his in his character.

4) The same way animals obey man because God said so is the same reason wives should submit to their husbands. Not because the husband is worthy, but because God says so. (Obviously the husband should also try to be worthy of her submission)

That's all I have. Just wanted to share this topic.

 

[prisonplanet]

The idea of animals knowing who God is gets really interesting to me. I sometimes look at my dog and think, in her mind, she knows that while she is lower than me on the hierarchy, that we are BOTH under God. It makes me wonder, does she ever think, I hope my master is going to church. I hope he's praying, etc.
And while I'm sure that on the normal day-to-day stuff, she simply goes about her day being an animal, looking for food, attention, warmth, a place to potty, etc, has she ever heard the voice of God? Like, an animal obviously doesn't have to be commanded to look for food, but what are some instances where we can imagine that God used an animal (commanded an animal( to do something in our lives, i.e., we assume rescue dogs and working dogs can be totally understood by science/biology, but what if there's something more? What if God tells a dog about a violent criminal or a child in need of being found?

 

[Sooth]

Humans are made in the image of God while everything else in creation is not.

Animals are bodies with no spirit or soul. They are just extremely advanced neural networks. Their brains work the same way as ours for processing physical information but they do not have the capacity to think - they can't sit on the end of the couch at night and ponder to themselves "did I have a good day today". Sometimes it appears that they can understand basic maths, logic, language etc but this is not the case. It will forever be the same with AI.

Animals still feel pain (something that AI never will), and it's immoral to torture an animal, but you can't murder an animal or an AI.

About animals in Heaven - I think when this question comes up there is an underappreciation for how good God / Heaven is.
When you enter Heaven all Truth is immediatly known to you, which includes the above (that animals are just animals) and the love of God and the other beings in Heaven is so supreme that your past pets are of little concern. Animals only give simulated love and once you're in Heaven you have the real deal.

 

[prisonplanet]

Animals are bodies with no spirit or soul. They are just extremely advanced neural networks. Their brains work the same way as ours for processing physical information but they do not have the capacity to think - they can't sit on the end of the couch at night and ponder to themselves "did I have a good day today".

Along these lines, it is my understanding that animals do not laugh or cry, which are trademarks of a soul (mind, will and emotion).

Animals still feel pain (something that AI never will), and it's immoral to torture an animal, but you can't murder an animal or an AI.

I heard somewhere that fish do not feel pain. If true I wonder why that is the case versus others.

 

[prisonplanet]

They can't sit on the end of the couch at night and ponder to themselves "did I have a good day today"

My sister used to tell me that her dog gets depressed. Before I was a Christian I just assumed it must be true that dogs get depressed. Now having a dog and my faith, I can understand why it seems that dogs get depressed. But I have been depressed, and I see now it is something animals just do not get. Depression is very much a matter of the soul and spirit. This picture of a dog kind of dwelling on their performance, you're right it simply doesn't exist. When I'm depressed, I'm usually feeling the weight of my sin and caught in a trap of sin, guilt, being overwhelmed, etc. A person can be depressed and nothing can seemingly shake him. My terrier is very expressive and she can put on the saddest of faces, but the second she thinks there's food or an opportunity to go outside, whatever state she was in is simply gone.

 

[RedLagoon]

Humans are made in the image of God while everything else in creation is not.

Animals are bodies with no spirit or soul. They are just extremely advanced neural networks. Their brains work the same way as ours for processing physical information but they do not have the capacity to think - they can't sit on the end of the couch at night and ponder to themselves "did I have a good day today". Sometimes it appears that they can understand basic maths, logic, language etc but this is not the case. It will forever be the same with AI.

Animals still feel pain (something that AI never will), and it's immoral to torture an animal, but you can't murder an animal or an AI.

About animals in Heaven - I think when this question comes up there is an underappreciation for how good God / Heaven is.
When you enter Heaven all Truth is immediatly known to you, which includes the above (that animals are just animals) and the love of God and the other beings in Heaven is so supreme that your past pets are of little concern. Animals only give simulated love and once you're in Heaven you have the real deal.

I thought Orthodoxy was neutral on the "animals have no soul" part? I find this subject interesting (it's been something on my mind recently) because when I look at my dog or cat I swear I can see a soul, not so much with the sheep and cows in the fields. Can anyone with more spiritual prowess than me chime in?

 

[get2choppaaa]

Dogs are social animals that were bred from wolves to serve a purpose.

All dogs come from wolves. I don't assume a wolf has a soul nor would I think they'd be associated with heaven.


Dogs had to learn to read a master's emotional state, and they have been bred, some breeds more than others, to interact with humans.

Part of the thing of breeding was to select traits that are amenable to different uses. Some for hunting (labradors/, some are aggressiveness towards animals (pit bulls) some towards people (Cane Corso's which are responsible for more fatalities and bites than any dog) Sheppard (blue heeler) catch dogs (black mountain cur) ECT ECT...

I love my American Bulldog, he's a part of our family. He's 150 lbs of fun...great with my kids, super protective of the family, great with other animals except stray dogs and cats ECT. But I don't think there's any chance he'll be in Heaven, and I am fine with that.

Someone asked my priest about this once, asking about their dog since they siad they would be sad if they went to heaven and their Dog wasnt there, he said something to the effect of "If you went to heaven and felt something was missing....would you be in heaven?" As in "Don't you recognize God knows what you do and dont need in heaven?" Atleast that's what I took from it.

 

[prisonplanet]

I sometimes forget that dogs being bred from wolves is a real thing and does not automatically mean that we subscribe to Darwinism, that there's a difference between natural selection and artificial selection.

 

[get2choppaaa]

I sometimes forget that dogs being bred from wolves is a real thing and does not automatically mean that we subscribe to Darwinism, that there's a difference between natural selection and artificial selection.

Yeah i went down the rabbit hole on all that when I was looking for my bulldog.

Im gonna get a female and start a breeding program here in the next year.

If you want some real interesting conversation about dogs and animals in general this guy Vito Alu is a really interesting fella. My dog has one of his bitches as a dame and the sire goes back to a famous Johnson bulldog.



When you get dogs with papers and get pedigree crazy you really realize that the are indeed just engineered animals, no different than chickens cows ect.

 

[OrthoSerb]

I see this question coming up quite frequently on various internet sites. This article is fairly balanced and decent on the topic.

Marina Biryukova. The Blessed and Dumb

What is the place of the animals in God’s universe? How are we supposed to perceive them? Are Christians expected to love and have pity on them?

orthochristian.com

The article links the temptation in the West to end up with an unbalanced focus on animals to the fact that the interaction with an obedient pet (particularly a dog) that is fixated and dependent on us is more gratifying that the struggle to love people who may even deliberately disrespect, disobey and hurt us. Or easier than the struggle to fulfill Christ's commandments to deny ourselves and become Christ-like. So instead of struggling to love God and our neighbour we take the easy way out and allow the affection for the animal to crowd out things which should be our primary focus. Instead of things being in their proper God-ordained place we have an unbalanced hierarchy created where animals are given the significance and attributes of humans based on the fact that they make the individual feel a certain way.

I think there's also a level of self-deception involved because all the while such people can even convince themselves that their love for animals is actually one of their principle virtues and that it even makes them more loving and superior to other people. In reality many of these people are using animals to fill a hole that can and should only be filled by communion with our neighbours and God. Instead of using say loneliness as an indication that something is not quite right and that they must struggle to establish relationships with their neighbour and God, the pet becomes a means of shoving the underlying problem under the carpet and masking the lack of true fullfillment. And once the animal has this unnatural significance in the hierarchy of values, priorities and relationships then the logical conclusion is such people can't imagine an eternity without their beloved pet. I personally like animals but when I see the level of iniquity in the world and how far some people are from God, it is of almost no concern to me what's going to happen to animals. We have people made in the image of God utterly under the influence of demonic powers. It seems to me that someone who is worrying about whether their pet will be with them in heaven is either oblivious to the spiritual reality around them or is so selfish that they are more concerned with their own gratification and status in heaven than they are with their fellow man heading for perdition. Not to mention that the image they have of heaven is one that conforms to their own preconcieved notions. Almost no space or trust is left for God, nor is there the humility to accept that our eyes and ears cannot even conceive of what God has prepared and that it is a mystery. We want a guarantee that God is going to provide exactly what we've decided is logical and desirable for Him to provide. That's the generally the spirit I sense when I've read questions to priests on this topic previously (for clarity, I'm not saying these are the beliefs or motivations for anyone on this thread). And it seems to be a purely modern and Western phenomenon. Interestingly a co-worker told me recently that a Muslim family on his street have a dog who they place on its own prayer mat when they are doing their prayers. There's obviously no historical or theological basis for this in Islam but these Muslims have obviously been more influenced by their environment than they realise. The same goes for Christians in the West, even some Orthodox ones.

I can't remember where I read it, but I recall in one of the books published by the Monastery of St John the Baptist in Essex they mention that when St Sophrony was compiling his famous book St Silouan the Athonite he intentionally left out some material relating to animals in the English translation. He sensed that Westerners would not be able to readily digest what to superficial eyes could be viewed as a dismissive stance towards animals (or rather a lower place for them than Westerners assign them by default). He didn't want this material to detract attention from the rest of the book or to discourage Westerners who were not ready for hard food. Taking a look online I've found the following from St Sophrony on the topic and I think this may be part of what was left out (or at least in the spirit of what was left out):

“We often see people so attached to animals that they are even friends with them. This the Staretz Silouan considered to be a perversion of the order established by God and contrary to the normal state of man…

In the whole of the New Testament there is not a single instance of the Lord paying attention to animals, though He, of course, loved every living thing. Attaining to…perfection of human nature, in the image of the Man-Christ, is the task set before us, appropriate to our nature as created in the likeness of God, and therefore affection and attachment to animals, so the Staretz thought, debases the human form of being. In this respect he writes,

Some people attach themselves to animals but in so doing they grieve the Creator, for man is called to love the One God. It is wrong to have a passion for animals – one must only commiserate with all living things.

He would say that all things were created to serve man, and so, when necessary, everything could be made use of but, at the same time, man was obliged to care for all creation. Therefore, harm done unnecessarily to an animal – to plant life, even – gainsays the law of grace. But attachment to animals likewise goes against the Divine commandment, since it diminishes love for God and one’s neighbor.”

Anyone who genuinely loves mankind, and in his prayers weeps for the whole world, cannot attach himself to animals.”

Personally I don't find this stance harsh at all. It just shows how unbalanced things have become that people cannot understand that there are levels to the spiritual life and so they set themselves very low targets, not realising the magnitude of what God has called them to.

 

[Optimus Princeps]

Someone asked my priest this and he said that he thinks they do go to paradise, there's trees, flowers and other life there as well.

 

[FisherOfMen]

I did a deep dive on Christian history at one point. As most of you probably know, the difference between the rampaging Jews before the Babylonian Captivity and the philosophical Jews after the Babylonian Captivity is their exposure to Zoroastrianism. Arguably, Jewish religious philosophy (including of Christ's time) is more influenced by Zoroaster than by Moses, in terms of God/World/Love/Good/Evil. Cyrus was a messiah after all.

That said, Zoroastrians literally believe dogs are THE sacred animal (they get buried with full human rites), but also believe everything God created has a soul, which will be joining in the final battle against evil at the end of time.

The Bible itself is utterly silent on the animal/soul subject (in fact, OT is silent on whether humans survive death, aside from witches raising shades), so I'm not sure why Orthodoxy has a position on it at all, unless someone got a revelation after year 33 that I don't know about (educate me if so!). It mostly seems to be theorized upon from the fall in the garden (and that animals didn't "sin" there), and not based on anything more than "sounds about 'aight."

 

[Dr Mantis Toboggan]

Humans are made in god's image. Dogs have a unique ability to bond with humans (plenty of individual examples of other species that can do this as well, but dogs are the only species I'm aware of where 100% of individuals are capable of it).

We can't know--hopefully all of us will find out one way or the other someday--but I like to think all animals but especially dogs will have a place in the new earth, if perhaps not in Heaven. 6-7 years ago I was going through an awful phase of my life, wasn't living as a Christian at the time, frankly was suicidal and probably the only or at least primary reason I didn't eat my Glock was my GSD mix who was insanely intelligent, emotive, you name it. He passed away year before last but not until he got to be a part of a complete family with my wife and first daughter (I was single when I adopted him). God knows best of course but I find it hard to wrap my mind around the idea that He would allow such a creature to be destroyed permanently.

 

[Akaky Akakievitch]

Someone asked my priest this and he said that he thinks they do go to paradise, there's trees, flowers and other life there as well.

Intuitively that makes more sense to me, although I explore some different possibilities below.

God knows best of course but I find it hard to wrap my mind around the idea that He would allow such a creature to be destroyed permanently.

As animals are not rational and so therefore are not guilty of sin, in the same way as mankind, then I would assume they automatically are taken to heaven, by default, as with victims of abortion who are completely innocent or other individuals that fall into that category, e.g. severely disabled or mentally retarded etc.

This subject probably falls into the realm of theologumena or 'theological opinions' (it's also termed as "probable truths"), so without any substantial dogma on the issue ever being produced, it will always be a matter of speculation. There are some things that we cannot know for certain about God's true objectives and the reasoning behind them, it's important to remind ourselves of that. But we can discuss them of course.

It seems like Heaven will be an extension of Paradise/Eden, as much as we can talk about these things with severe limitations of course, and if Paradise was full of peaceful and loving creatures serving Adam in the Garden, then why not in Heaven alongside redeemed mankind?

I suppose we must consider the body and the soul, in this context, and what retains a body in the New Jerusalem and what doesn't. Man will have a resurrected body, but animals will not be raised up from the dead in the same way, I suppose. It's arguable they don't have a soul, but it's undeniable that dogs and horses in particular have deep, personal connections to their owners, some reporting on how it's nigh on telepathic when they are well-adjusted to their dog at home or horse while riding (i've not experienced it to that degree myself but it's common enough among others)

Recently I've been noticing the robins tweeting and chirping as the sun goes down, it is happening quite early around 5 o clock, as we are in the early winter months of course (I'm in the UK), but I had an immediate impression that the sweetness of their chirping and the natural innocence of that sound gave me a "type" or perhaps even an "icon" of Paradise, through listening to their joyful melody, a surviving relic of that perfect time before the Fall, throughout all these broken centuries, and an encouraging signal of the world to come.

It's a daily reminder while hearing their chirping that God made everything Good -- in fact, very Good. Animals in general can be a reminder of this, if we can try to steer away from the biological/evolutionary paradigm, the 'survival of the fittest', where although you can sense the secularised scientists are in admiration of their natural beauty, they also constantly distract one from any deeper spiritual significance, going on and on about how many babies they have, or when their mating seasons are, or how they kill for food etc. Instead we could try to see it through a spiritual lens of witnessing one of God's unique creations in a multitude of such and how it relates to our salvation.

However, perhaps Heaven will be so overwhelmingly beautiful, that the present majesty of the animals will not even stand in comparison to the glory of God in His Kingdom. During Noah's Flood, probably 95+% of animals and plants were erased in that first purification, arguably a 'type' of the Last Judgment, so what's not to say after Christ's Second Coming, He will purify everything on earth with fire and only save the one Lost Sheep, mankind, as he is the only creature worth saving? As we are the only ones explicitly made in His image, verified through Scripture, Revelation and Church tradition? I can see it from that angle as well.

If animals are here to serve us, then they should aid in our salvation, as with the angels, but without an ability to pass from earth to heaven, it might be an impassable juncture for the animals, as fatalistic as it seems (remembering our cushiony affection for animals in the West as well). In this sense, the angels are already prepared to serve us in the Kingdom, but the animals may not share in this eternal destiny. We have Guardian angels but not Guardian animals, so they don't seem to have the same divine purpose and perhaps may always remain earthly, and therefore may not survive the events of the Last Judgement.

 

[Phronema]

People tend to project human qualities like love and friendship to their pets. Dogs are called "a human's best friend" and are said to "love unconditionally". This reduces love to something emotional and passive. The dog has no interest in the moral state of its human companion. It is only interested in what is good or bad for its own well-being. Ideally, each dog is bred to perform a certain function and is kept in a cage. Nowadays I hear they even sleep in people's beds.

 

[An0dyne]

Animals are not robots. They have emotions and spirits. In fact, even the plants have a type of this. St. Maximus highlights the distinction:

“The Human Soul has three powers, first, the power of nourishment and growth; second, that of imagination and instinct; third, that of intelligence and intellect. Plants share only in the first of these powers; animals share in the first and second only; and men share in all three” (Philokalia Vol. 2, “Third Century on Love,” p.88, v. 32. Eds. Palmer, Sherrard, and Ware. Faber & Faber, 1979).

St. Paul tells us that *all creation“ groans with birth pains waiting for the revelation of the sons of God (Roman’s 8). St. John in the Apocalypse quotes the Lord, saying, “Behold, I make all things new.” All things. St. John says in the Gospel, “God so loved the world,” being understood as cosmos. The cosmic or physical order, distinct from the perfect spiritual order, was loved by God. So He took man, the pinnacle and head of the created order, into Himself in the Incarnation and is removing the sin *of the entire cosmos.* Death is the wage of sin. Christ will has utterly destroyed death. All things will participate in that; just as all things participated in the fall of the first Adam, they will participate in the Rising of the Second.

 

[Phronema]

Animals are not robots. They have emotions and spirits. In fact, even the plants have a type of this. St. Maximus highlights the distinction:

“The Human Soul has three powers, first, the power of nourishment and growth; second, that of imagination and instinct; third, that of intelligence and intellect. Plants share only in the first of these powers; animals share in the first and second only; and men share in all three” (Philokalia Vol. 2, “Third Century on Love,” p.88, v. 32. Eds. Palmer, Sherrard, and Ware. Faber & Faber, 1979).

Yes, in animals an emotional component is added to the basic attraction/repulsion of simpler life forms.

No, animals are not robots. Robots are constructed while animals need to grow. Nevertheless, instinctual behavior is passive and reactive.

True love is active and directs the will toward the Good. The Good is determined by the intellect and acted upon by the will. Emotions follow from that.

 

[MilvianForce]

I am of the belief that God knows all of His creations and all of His creations are aware of His existence. How they interact with Him, I have no clue.

 

[Road2Damascus]

I don't think God abandons them, but I am not well versed on the official doctrine.

 

[RedLagoon]

I've met many more animals than humans that should qualify for heaven. I don't know how Orthodoxy looks at it as I'm not in the church yet but that's just my experience.

The great Dane I grew up with pulled me through some hard times and the cats I have now keep my house pest free and they are the kindest creatures you could imagine for my children. Is there a cat and dog heaven?