Apple challenging FBI demand to hack iphone
- Thread starter Dalaran1991
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Bill Brasky said:
This is more likely.
Apple might have good intentions but I don't believe them. This seed was sown years ago when they made everybody hooked to the tech. The Govt has been telling them to open up the tech years ago or they would be forced. This is nothing new from the terrorist attack in Cali, the Govt has been on phone makers necks since 2012 at least.
Who would have a better time escaping the tentacles of US law? .. Apple or South Korean Samsung who could tell the USA to go fuck off.
Maybe all of this is just to force Apple to being back the billions upon billions in cash it hides overseas.
eatthishomie
Pelican
RIslander said:
Wait until having normal testosterone levels becomes illegal, aka DEFCOCK 1.
To be honest I thought this was already a thing apple was doing for the U.S. government.
There were rumors years ago that various foreign intel agencies (China most notably) restricted their employees from carrying smartphones particularly iphones anywhere close to meetings or during operations.
The iphone really is a big giant bugging device. It can record loc in passive mode and i'm sure the mic and video can easily be triggered on/off remotely.
The safest thing to have is a late 90's flip with a burner sim if you're really paranoid about spying.
There were rumors years ago that various foreign intel agencies (China most notably) restricted their employees from carrying smartphones particularly iphones anywhere close to meetings or during operations.
The iphone really is a big giant bugging device. It can record loc in passive mode and i'm sure the mic and video can easily be triggered on/off remotely.
The safest thing to have is a late 90's flip with a burner sim if you're really paranoid about spying.
Apple and Tim Cook aren't doing this because they care about actual human beings, just look at their sourcing component factories. They're doing it to protect from lawsuits. Apple has outsourced so much to China that any back door will be immediately used by the Chinese to steal everyone's info, and unlike OPM, Apple's users can sue.
Plus, once the back door gets to the FBI, Israel will be able to steal the info as well. So you have two countries that look at the US as a piggy bank to be robbed, with one even having the legal team to steal Apple's war chest from the coming lawsuits. Good spin by Timmy to play the empathy card though.
Plus, once the back door gets to the FBI, Israel will be able to steal the info as well. So you have two countries that look at the US as a piggy bank to be robbed, with one even having the legal team to steal Apple's war chest from the coming lawsuits. Good spin by Timmy to play the empathy card though.
The FBI is not asking for a backdoor to be programmed in. (That wouldn't work here since the iPhone is already programmed and locked.)
The FBI is asking Apple to develop a program or method to unlock one specific iPhone so they can get the contents, and already have a valid warrant for the search. Apple could develop a new iOS that would connect to one of the ports and get the information, and not be used unless there is a valid search warrant. Also, they would need to have the iPhone to connect to. My understanding is that this iOS solution would not work over the internet.
I believe that the FBI is in the right here, and constitutional. While the FBI will have to pay expenses to develop the program, Apple is going to need to comply with the court order.
As an example of why I think Apple needs to comply with this valid search warrant, lets assume that instead of being data on a iPhone, it was documents in a safe deposit box at a bank. The FBI gets a search warrant for the safe deposit box and its contents, but the bank refuses to allow the FBI into the vault, claiming that if they did so it would endanger the privacy of their customers because of the possibility that they could someday search other boxes with the tool.
Now, in the hypothetical of the safe deposit box, would anyone think that the bank had the right or duty to refuse to obey a valid search warrant on these grounds? I would put it to you that the answer is no. The argument that the government could use the tool (key for the safe deposit box or program for the iphone) to access anyone's content is possible in both situations, but in the safe deposit box, no one would argue or expect that the bank would have the right/duty to prevent the box from being searched.
Apple is acting like they somehow are exempt from complying with valid court orders because it is something that involves their technology so they should get a 'pass' on valid and constitutional court orders.
I expect that while Tim Cook and Apple may whine for a while, that it will escalate to the point that they will need to comply.
The FBI is asking Apple to develop a program or method to unlock one specific iPhone so they can get the contents, and already have a valid warrant for the search. Apple could develop a new iOS that would connect to one of the ports and get the information, and not be used unless there is a valid search warrant. Also, they would need to have the iPhone to connect to. My understanding is that this iOS solution would not work over the internet.
I believe that the FBI is in the right here, and constitutional. While the FBI will have to pay expenses to develop the program, Apple is going to need to comply with the court order.
As an example of why I think Apple needs to comply with this valid search warrant, lets assume that instead of being data on a iPhone, it was documents in a safe deposit box at a bank. The FBI gets a search warrant for the safe deposit box and its contents, but the bank refuses to allow the FBI into the vault, claiming that if they did so it would endanger the privacy of their customers because of the possibility that they could someday search other boxes with the tool.
Now, in the hypothetical of the safe deposit box, would anyone think that the bank had the right or duty to refuse to obey a valid search warrant on these grounds? I would put it to you that the answer is no. The argument that the government could use the tool (key for the safe deposit box or program for the iphone) to access anyone's content is possible in both situations, but in the safe deposit box, no one would argue or expect that the bank would have the right/duty to prevent the box from being searched.
Apple is acting like they somehow are exempt from complying with valid court orders because it is something that involves their technology so they should get a 'pass' on valid and constitutional court orders.
I expect that while Tim Cook and Apple may whine for a while, that it will escalate to the point that they will need to comply.
MKDAWUSS said:
Apparently not.
The FBI needs Apple to develop a modified iOS (Apple iPad/iPhone operating system) and directly connect to the phones USB port to bypass the lock code. I expect it will take some time to develop the program but looks like it is the only way to get around the lock code at the moment.
Apple is also objecting on the ground that once they develop the program (modified iOS) that it will somehow 'get out there' and usable by anyone to break iPhones. Of course, the real problem, and only way that could happen is if they have terrible security and/or their employees betray them, both of which could be prevented or fixed.
EvanWilson said:
In the real world, the FBI would use their new toy to access every iPhone they got their hands on and make up reasons for a warrant after the fact for any phone they found interesting stuff on.
weambulance said:
In my comparison of a safe deposit box at a bank, no one worries or is concerned that the FBI is going around looking in safe deposit boxes without warrants and without anyone knowing. The problem is why is an iPhone somehow treated as deserving a higher level of protection or even exclusion from valid court issued search warrants and ever being searched?
Apples current view seems to be that anything in an iPhone can never, ever be search for any reason, and valid court issued search warrants should be ignored. Is that what an iPhone is for? A place to put data and documents, or ways to plan crimes and no one can ever search them, i.e. iPhones are exempt from all court issued search warrants?
Don't rely too much on your analogy. How is the FBI supposed to just waltz into a bank vault, owned by a private party, with physical and electronic security in place, without anyone noticing?
Suppose the FBI has this iPhone cracking tool from Apple. Then, if the FBI even detains someone for questioning, they can take the cell phone, image the file system while said person is being questioned (having confiscated the phone "for security reasons"), give the phone back, and use whatever tool they have to crack the file system without even having possession of the original phone anymore.
If the FBI has a search warrant for that phone, fine, they can search it, in the same way if your bank refused access the FBI could enter with force and pay a locksmith to bypass the relevant security to get to the contents. They cannot compel the vault/lock makers to give them master keys to the vaults and safe deposit boxes of all banks in perpetuity just in case some bank someday refuses to cooperate.
The FBI crime lab has been complicit in fabricating evidence or outright lying about the results of their analyses in ways that led to the convictions and, in some cases, executions of innocent people over the last several decades. Why on earth would any sane person trust such an organization to follow the law?
Suppose the FBI has this iPhone cracking tool from Apple. Then, if the FBI even detains someone for questioning, they can take the cell phone, image the file system while said person is being questioned (having confiscated the phone "for security reasons"), give the phone back, and use whatever tool they have to crack the file system without even having possession of the original phone anymore.
If the FBI has a search warrant for that phone, fine, they can search it, in the same way if your bank refused access the FBI could enter with force and pay a locksmith to bypass the relevant security to get to the contents. They cannot compel the vault/lock makers to give them master keys to the vaults and safe deposit boxes of all banks in perpetuity just in case some bank someday refuses to cooperate.
The FBI crime lab has been complicit in fabricating evidence or outright lying about the results of their analyses in ways that led to the convictions and, in some cases, executions of innocent people over the last several decades. Why on earth would any sane person trust such an organization to follow the law?
Thing is a safe deposit box doesn't hold any where near as much information as an iPhone.
I don't know what they're going to do here, I think they will comply in some fashion - however I think it will be under the strict supervision of Apple. Meaning FBI will have to Apple headquarters.
I don't know what they're going to do here, I think they will comply in some fashion - however I think it will be under the strict supervision of Apple. Meaning FBI will have to Apple headquarters.
RIslander said:
Not true in the slightest. More than 99% of the use of surveillance has been in prosecuting domestic offenses such as victimless crimes. When is the last time a full-blown terrorist attack was foiled by NSA dragnet surveillance? The very last group that will ever be caught out by this stuff is a terrorist group. Their whole modus operandi is avoiding states uncovering their plots before they execute them.
The purpose of government surveillance is to protect and project it's own power upon the citizenry at large. It doesn't affect you until one day you want to do something perfectly ethical which the state is against (such as hiding a fleeing Jew in your basement), at which point your trust of the government becomes your noose.
HectorLavoe
Woodpecker
Government agencies already have direct access to Apple user data under the PRISM surveillance program, to think otherwise is naive at this point in the game.
HectorLavoe said:
This isn't about transmitted data- of course Apple (and the telcom and thus Gov) has information about the data sent/received, and that has already been turned over/accessed.
The FBI wouldn't be asking for Apple to hack the phone (which they can't) if they could do it themselves. As of a couple years ago, the data on the iphone is encrypted when in a locked state. Photos, notes, etc- stuff "in" the phone is inaccessible if the device is encrypted. No one can break that standard of hardware encryption yet.
This is why the FBI is asking or trying to force Apple to create the next iOS with a backdoor- there isn't a way to get in right now.
It has been reported that NSA, CIA, GCHQ are all struggling with the wider use of encryption in the last couple years- this is exactly why governments want to pass laws/mandate back doors be put in. Because encryption works.
It's not necessarily that they can't break the encryption, but that it's a resource intensive process. They want to have backdoors so they don't have to spend a big chunk of their computing capability breaking into some guy's phone just so they can see pictures of his kids, what music he listens to, and last week's grocery list.
Alpha_Romeo
Kingfisher
Perhaps the FBI/US govt could focus its resources and do a better job of keeping terrorists out so these kind of questions and scenarios don't have to be entertained.
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