Are most married couples unhappy?

Your life then is the rarity; the exception, not the rule. Congrats.

As for the vast majority of men, their women's sex drive plunges approximately 18-36 months into the relationship. It's an extremely common issue been going on for thousands of years, immortalized in numerous songs, plays, movies, tv shows, etc. Women just stop pleasing their man at a certain point and go frigid.

It's a cliche for a reason.

A five-minute google search will yield you thousands of articles like these about women not having sex with their men anymore:





I would also suggest watching The Better Bachelor youtube channel. He talks in various videos about his ex-wife, about how she shut down sex after the initial "honeymoon" phase, and how he finally walked out after 6 years when she denied him sex and preferred to watch American Idol. He's not bitter about it, he just explains matter of factly that is how the vast majority of women are, and a man simply must move on when that occurs, because it won't get fixed (he's non-religious).

Sure but I could Google "women who were molested by their Uncle" and also conclude from that nearly all women are molested by their Uncles.

There is some degree of confirmation bias here, because you're asking people who have unhappy or failed relationships.

I'm sure lack of sex or non-enjoyment of sex is a HUGE part of why most men are unhappy in their relationships. That and nagging. I'm certainly not downplaying that or saying all your experiences are made-up. I just suggest talking to more not-unhappily married people. You may be surprised how many are just fine in that area.
 

Lionheart

Sparrow
Ultimately, this is the current dilemma that keeps coming back to (haunt) us. It's hard to get serious about a woman who is a reed in this culture's spiritual wind, flippin' and flappin at the will of other's not her husbands. And old, historically, to boot. Without reinventing more of the same conversation, it all boils down to the age at which the culture tries to connect people. If not on the younger side, you get less and less of the youth/fertility/beauty, and more and more of the cynical nature of women having been played, precisely because most were "playing" throughout their 20s.

Also, women care clueless as to the dynamic of their losing their SMV and men gaining it in turn, at age 30+. They aren't clueless that they are losing it, they are clueless of the double whammy of trying to sell a plummeting stock to others with stock that is surging ...
Maybe women aren't clueless that they are losing their SMV and that's why they are hypergamous.
 

R.G.Camara

Kingfisher
Sure but I could Google "women who were molested by their Uncle" and also conclude from that nearly all women are molested by their Uncles.

There is some degree of confirmation bias here, because you're asking people who have unhappy or failed relationships.

I'm sure lack of sex or non-enjoyment of sex is a HUGE part of why most men are unhappy in their relationships. That and nagging. I'm certainly not downplaying that or saying all your experiences are made-up. I just suggest talking to more not-unhappily married people. You may be surprised how many are just fine in that area.

You are strangely resistant to admitting that is a major problem despite all evidence, and I don't know why, outside of straight stubbornness or an urge to troll.

I'm happy for you not having this problem in your own life, but your denial of it being a large, on-going problem in human history is stiff-necked. When even St. John Chrysostom and St. Paul were exhorting women to yield to their husband's advances, you know that wifely sex drives with husbands was a continuous problem in a large number of marriages.
 

Thomas More

Hummingbird
You are strangely resistant to admitting that is a major problem despite all evidence, and I don't know why, outside of straight stubbornness or an urge to troll.

I'm happy for you not having this problem in your own life, but your denial of it being a large, on-going problem in human history is stiff-necked. When even St. John Chrysostom and St. Paul were exhorting women to yield to their husband's advances, you know that wifely sex drives with husbands was a continuous problem in a large number of marriages.
This reminds me of a somewhat topical story.

Valerie Bertinelli's character in the TV show One Day at a Time was getting married.

The show had a stag party for the groom. They had that one guy who was the super for the building, and a few other older dudes, who were talking about married life.

One of the older guys told the groom that if you put a penny in a jar every time you have sex during the first year, and take a penny out every time you have sex for the rest of the marriage, you'll never empty the jar.

I wonder how those TV show writers back in the 70s got so black pilled, what with growing up in the traditional 50s and 60s?
 

Garf

Pigeon
Your life then is the rarity; the exception, not the rule. Congrats.

As for the vast majority of men, their women's sex drive plunges approximately 18-36 months into the relationship. It's an extremely common issue been going on for thousands of years, immortalized in numerous songs, plays, movies, tv shows, etc. Women just stop pleasing their man at a certain point and go frigid.
18-36 months is approximately how long the infatuation phase of a relationship tends to last, after which your romanticised view of your partner starts to crumble. You more and more see your partner for who she really is and many couples struggle with accepting the actual flawed individual they are with, is it related to the decline in sexual attraction?

I once lost totally lost my interest in having sex with my partner for a couple of weeks. Then I started meditating regularly again and realised I was harbouring a lot of unacknowledged resentment towards her about several things, such as for having given up my freedom to be with her. After I worked through these feelings my attraction to her returned. Obviously this take two to work, but I think having a spiritually grounded relationship with regular contemplative practice is essential to maintain sexual attraction to each other, per David Deida.
 

bucky

Ostrich
18-36 months is approximately how long the infatuation phase of a relationship tends to last, after which your romanticised view of your partner starts to crumble. You more and more see your partner for who she really is and many couples struggle with accepting the actual flawed individual they are with, is it related to the decline in sexual attraction?

I once lost totally lost my interest in having sex with my partner for a couple of weeks. Then I started meditating regularly again and realised I was harbouring a lot of unacknowledged resentment towards her about several things, such as for having given up my freedom to be with her. After I worked through these feelings my attraction to her returned. Obviously this take two to work, but I think having a spiritually grounded relationship with regular contemplative practice is essential to maintain sexual attraction to each other, per David Deida.

Coolidge Effect is also a factor.
 

Garf

Pigeon
Novelty is a basis for sexual attraction, but its not the only basis. There is a deeper spiritual basis for sexuality that doesn't require novelty in the form a different woman.

IMHO the Coolidge Effect doesn't directly decrease desire for your partner, but it is one of the things that cause you to resent your partner, ie quietly cursing her for keeping you from pursuing other, novel, women.

Resentment is what kills the desire. But once you accept the fact that novel women in itself will never give you fulfilment (because every woman eventually ceases to be novel) then you can stop resenting your partner for restricting your pursuit of the novel.
 
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R.G.Camara

Kingfisher
This reminds me of a somewhat topical story.

Valerie Bertinelli's character in the TV show One Day at a Time was getting married.

The show had a stag party for the groom. They had that one guy who was the super for the building, and a few other older dudes, who were talking about married life.

One of the older guys told the groom that if you put a penny in a jar every time you have sex during the first year, and take a penny out every time you have sex for the rest of the marriage, you'll never empty the jar.

I wonder how those TV show writers back in the 70s got so black pilled, what with growing up in the traditional 50s and 60s?

Even with trad marriage you had this problem, which is why you needed the community and, especially, the pulpit, to constantly exhort wives to do their duty to their men. It really did take a village (sad I had to steal from Hillary for that one!).

But it was good for the community as a whole for wives to please their husbands. Otherwise, you got embittered or lazy husbands unwilling to do their duties to the communities---because why should they, when their needs weren't being satisfied---or, worse, you had husbands cheating on wives or leaving them, thus causing community strife and discord.
 

R.G.Camara

Kingfisher
18-36 months is approximately how long the infatuation phase of a relationship tends to last, after which your romanticised view of your partner starts to crumble. You more and more see your partner for who she really is and many couples struggle with accepting the actual flawed individual they are with, is it related to the decline in sexual attraction?

I once lost totally lost my interest in having sex with my partner for a couple of weeks. Then I started meditating regularly again and realised I was harbouring a lot of unacknowledged resentment towards her about several things, such as for having given up my freedom to be with her. After I worked through these feelings my attraction to her returned. Obviously this take two to work, but I think having a spiritually grounded relationship with regular contemplative practice is essential to maintain sexual attraction to each other, per David Deida.

I don't know about women, but for most men there's still a sexual attraction to their women for many years later, unless they blow up and get super fat or otherwise fall apart. It's women who turn off the sex, not men, by and large.
 

bucky

Ostrich
Coolidge Effect is about men not being interested in their women, not women denying sex to their men.

Sure, but I meant that it's a factor in less sex in marriage as the years go on. More so for some couples, less for others. Still, people always act like it's always the wife who wants less sex, never the husband and that's not true.

I've mentioned this before, but my wife generally wants sex more than I do. She'd be fine with every day, probably multiple times a day. We have small children so we can't do this anyway, but for me every day would be a bit too much, and it wasn't when we were first together. In other LTRs I've been in, I've also felt like nailing her less than once a day after a few years together. I never felt not attracted to her or (as someone above opined) resented her for it, I've always understood it as the price you pay if you want to be a one-woman guy, which I do, or at least the little angel on my shoulder does. The little devil on the other shoulder would like to see me out there "spinning plates" of course but I'm not going to do that for more reasons than I can list here, but the two biggest are that it would be bad for my kids and that I'm better than that.
 

Garf

Pigeon
Sure, but I meant that it's a factor in less sex in marriage as the years go on. More so for some couples, less for others. Still, people always act like it's always the wife who wants less sex, never the husband and that's not true.

I've mentioned this before, but my wife generally wants sex more than I do. She'd be fine with every day, probably multiple times a day. We have small children so we can't do this anyway, but for me every day would be a bit too much, and it wasn't when we were first together. In other LTRs I've been in, I've also felt like nailing her less than once a day after a few years together. I never felt not attracted to her or (as someone above opined) resented her for it, I've always understood it as the price you pay if you want to be a one-woman guy, which I do, or at least the little angel on my shoulder does. The little devil on the other shoulder would like to see me out there "spinning plates" of course but I'm not going to do that for more reasons than I can list here, but the two biggest are that it would be bad for my kids and that I'm better than that.
I mean your frequency of sex slightly declined compared to the beginning but it doesn’t sound like a dead bedroom by any means. Its totally normal to want to nail a partner the most frequently in the beginning of a relationship and for the frequency to decline slightly after some time, but the dead bedroom phenomena is something different I think.
 

bucky

Ostrich
I mean your frequency of sex slightly declined compared to the beginning but it doesn’t sound like a dead bedroom by any means. Its totally normal to want to nail a partner the most frequently in the beginning of a relationship and for the frequency to decline slightly after some time, but the dead bedroom phenomena is something different I think.

Definitely, and I'm definitely not saying the woman withholding sex isn't something that happens a lot. It obviously is. It might even be true that it happens to most husbands, I don't know. What I'm saying is that it's hardly a given. I believe that it's far less likely to happen to an exceptional man who's in the, let's say, top 20% of husbands all around, and I believe being in that top 20% is very achievable for men who are free thinking enough to be on a forum like RVF.

One of the biggest reasons guys on RVF are still often terrified of marriage is that they assume they're likely to end up like the typical, average American husband. In my opinion, almost all of us are better than that, or at least we realistically can be.
 

RoadKill

Sparrow
Sex hasn't really been an issue for me in my second marriage. Infidelity ended my first marriage, but that's because my ex didn't like the church life and she wanted a bad boy who was selfish instead of me. I'm no beta, but I was responsible, respectful and calculated. I think she was so messed up, she wanted someone to yell with.

Oh, and she wanted me to get into swinging. We're Christians and she would joke with me and mess with my head and say the neighbors were swingers; what did I think about that? Then when she realized I was not receptive, she would say she was just messing with my head. Just before we divorced, she took me to a bar that I had never been to and it ended up being a bar with straight and gay men and women. A dude hit on me. I never felt more uncomfortable in my life.

After we divorced, my step-daughter left her mom when she turned 18 and contacted me. She asked me if I knew her mom was a swinger. Apparently, after I was out of the picture and mid-life crisis man was in, they got into swinging.

My ex was really messed up. Sexually abused by her dad, raped and held as a sex slave for a week in an abandoned house before being found and rescued when she was 15 or 16. Was into coke and weed in her youth. The real messed up thing is that she got into the mental health profession and is a counselor now. She does it to mask her own mental instability.

For my current marriage, we've had dry spells and times when she was really aggressive. We had a pure dating relationship and didn't consummate the marriage until the the honeymoon night. The sex was aggressive the first few years, but after the son came and she got her college finished, it dried up quite a bit. Usually we go 2 to 3 weeks max between intimacy. Last year we were close to divorcing and she really stepped it up because she saw she was losing me. After things stabilized, she throttled back and now we're on an interval of once every one to two weeks.

It's pretty much maintenance for her in the sense of keeping me satisfied so I don't bail, but now it's the same old routine. There was a time, years ago, when she was anxious and she was on Ambient in order to sleep. I have to say, that was the happiest time in my marriage. It was like being married to a porn star. Like a really slutty and aggressive porn star. Then one day, her new doctor said it may cause dementia and Alzheimer's, so she stopped taking it. I wanted to punch that doctor in the face. I had a great thing going and he took it away from me. Now it's eeeeew, don't do that, eeeew, that's to trashy to wear, eeew, that's too freaky. I'm too classy for that... Oh please...

Women are generally motivated to have sex for the following reasons:
-To get a man
-To keep a man
-To have kids
-To steal a man

Unfortunately, neither of you will ever know how she's going to turn out until after you get married. If you have a worldly dating relationship, you may have an idea. If you have a pure dating relationship, you have no idea. It's a crap shoot.

Married couples, once you have kids, fall into a rut. Make sure you have a good hobby to keep you occupied.

RK
 
You are strangely resistant to admitting that is a major problem despite all evidence, and I don't know why, outside of straight stubbornness or an urge to troll.

I'm happy for you not having this problem in your own life, but your denial of it being a large, on-going problem in human history is stiff-necked. When even St. John Chrysostom and St. Paul were exhorting women to yield to their husband's advances, you know that wifely sex drives with husbands was a continuous problem in a large number of marriages.

You're missing the point of my posts. Let's clear some things up:

* I'm not downplaying it is a problem for many men; never denied that
* very cognizant of the religious writings you cite (although Google searches and pop songs are tenuous and not serious "evidence")
* you are making a very good distinction here by using the words WIFELY sex drives with HUSBANDS... something about the marriage contract may play on the female psyche

I see a lot of black-pill doom in this thread. So I'd like to give young men the hope that it is not inevitable that they will end up in a sexless marriage. You are doing the part of warning them that it is a possibility. We are engaged in a dialogue, not a fight.

Thinking about what I told you about my own life, and the husbands in my orbit, it's unlikely we were born with some special ability to find the only women who do not lose their sex drive. Especially in my case, with 3 women across disparate cultures and religions (1. Russian ethnicity & Orthodox religion & from Europe, 2. English/Scandinavian ethnicity & Mormon religion & from Western Canada, 3. French/Aboriginal/German ethnicity & agnostic & from Eastern Canada).

Perhaps some part in them not losing their sex drive was a result of my own attitude / actions / mentality, that could be useful to others. That's why I asked if the men who complain about the dead bedroom could go into more detail or are telling the whole story. Of course your point that the pulpit and the culture needs to exhort women would also help.

When I am 60 and my GF is 45, I figure I'll be less motivated to have sex than her, given my tools won't work nearly as well as they did in my 20s and given that 45 year old women are generally not that attractive. That is a far more pressing problem, in my opinion.
 
As for the vast majority of men, their women's sex drive plunges approximately 18-36 months into the relationship. It's an extremely common issue been going on for thousands of years, immortalized in numerous songs, plays, movies, tv shows, etc. Women just stop pleasing their man at a certain point and go frigid.

It's a cliche for a reason.

A five-minute google search will yield you thousands of articles like these about women not having sex with their men anymore:





I see you, I hear you, I believe you. But do we ever ask why this is? I'm a Christian (all my life, read through the Bible 7+ times, go to Church and meetings more than once per week, etc.), and to broadly generalize, the root cause of sexless marriages is due to a lack of submission from the wife AND a lack of love from the husband.


Ephesians 5:22-33

King James Version


22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;


I believe that both genders are at fault: women are not yielding as Scripture commands them, but are our men loving their women unconditionally and sacrificing ourselves for them? We might work and bring a paycheck, but how many guys bitch and moan when they don't get their orgasm? Excuse my language, but I hope you get my message. If we are dumping love into her, onto her, and around her, even when it seems like she is giving less than we give, I truly believe sex won't be an issue. Call me naive.
 

Thomas More

Hummingbird
I see you, I hear you, I believe you. But do we ever ask why this is? I'm a Christian (all my life, read through the Bible 7+ times, go to Church and meetings more than once per week, etc.), and to broadly generalize, the root cause of sexless marriages is due to a lack of submission from the wife AND a lack of love from the husband.


Ephesians 5:22-33

King James Version


22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;


I believe that both genders are at fault: women are not yielding as Scripture commands them, but are our men loving their women unconditionally and sacrificing ourselves for them? We might work and bring a paycheck, but how many guys bitch and moan when they don't get their orgasm? Excuse my language, but I hope you get my message. If we are dumping love into her, onto her, and around her, even when it seems like she is giving less than we give, I truly believe sex won't be an issue. Call me naive.

This is naive. There are huge number of women who have frozen out their husbands, who think he is a wonderful loving father and husband. They just don't love him 'that' way anymore.

As many have said above, a happy marriage is possible. However, your plan for being as loving as possible to your wife is not a solution to ensure a good sex life.

In fact, there is considerable experience that says this is beta, and it kills attraction, and being demanding and aloof will get better results.

If you go into marriage with the right kind of woman, and the right approach to being the best husband you can be, you can lower your risk of an unhappy marriage. However, the risk is still far higher than your risk of career failure, or unusually bad health, or other kinds of life misfortunes.
 
This is naive. There are huge number of women who have frozen out their husbands, who think he is a wonderful loving father and husband. They just don't love him 'that' way anymore.

That's why I called it a "broad generalization". If she doesn't love him 'that' way anymore, and thus freezes him out, she is not a submissive wife, and she is not guided by Biblical principles but by worldly ones.
 
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