Are vegetable oils safe to eat?

Don Quixote

Ostrich
Orthodox Inquirer
But it's often multiple countries in one bottle. That seems suspicious to me. It's tough to find single origin olive oil in supermarkets.
Walmart has the California brand which is probably a safe bet in terms of purity and origin. I am not a huge fan of the mild flavor of their normal variety though so I actually got their blend, which has a more potent flavor. I think it's still pretty safe though. Otherwise, maybe amazon has some good single origin ones. I think the Greek ones that are not huge brands are probably ok.

You have to be careful with all major brands, particularly of Italian origin. I am even suspicious of these labels suggesting proof of purity (National Olive Oil Association). These "associations" were created by the major olive oil brands who then charge a ridiculous fee to be a member, and only the major brands can of course afford to be the members of their own club. These were the brands that were accused of adulterating their product so they created this fake organization to make them seem more legit. I don't see any third party independent lab analysis, and they give a bunch of excuses as to why they don't provide that.

There are stories of people going to prison in Italy for adulterating this stuff, but in the U.S. where the laws are more relaxed, they can get away with it. Apparently the same Colavita in Italy that is pure is not pure in the U.S., and apparently the mob is behind the adulteration in the olive oil industry in Italy. Can't verify that but I remember reading it somewhere. If you go to Colavita's website now their CEO addresses the issue not with proof but just by offering his good will and begging us to trust him.

Perhaps it is legit, I don't know. I actually like the taste of Colavita. But the point is that sometimes you can't even trust these associations. You will have to pretty much look at the color (is it dark green?) and taste. I prefer a very pungent flavor because even if it's a strong and not a mild oil at least I am pretty sure it is pure.

The study at UC Davis which generated all this controversy is somewhat questionable as it was funded by the California olive industry who was in direct competition with the Italian producers. So who knows. Very murky waters. Still I think going by taste and visuals is smart, and I do think that California brand is decent.
 
Last edited:

frankunderwood

Pigeon
Protestant
But remember that many of the golden and silver era bodybuilders died early of massive heart attacks. It's unnatural to consume that much fat and animal protein constantly. It's also unnatural to walk around with so much muscle mass, and to take all those drugs...but that's another issue for another thread.

If living the longest possible life is your goal, then perhaps a diet of steamed string beans and water will get you there. But you will be very thin and weak. Similarly, if you want to be as big and strong as possible it will shave some years off your life. The choice is yours.

So our diets should be balanced.
Lean meats, fish, nuts, seeds, fresh fruit, fresh vegetables, some grains, some dairy. Just avoid processed food, sugar and soy and you are good to go.

I disagree with the "don't eat any plant oils ever!" crowd. Many studies have shown the Mediterranean diet to be one of the healthiest, and its adherents live the longest. It relies heavily on olive oil. The problems arise when things are overly processed. Just as important is what the oil is stored in -- fat can leech up the BPA and other chemicals from plastic, especially when heated by sunlight. Go for glass.

- Canola is not even a real plant so it's out. Geese won't touch canola in the fields.
- Vegetable oil no way
- Coconut is ok, but it's almost pure saturated fat. It is possible to consume too much.
- Butter is similar to coconut oil, though a little less saturated fat. Ok but not too much.
- Avocado is ok
- Sunflower is ok in my experience. I don't consume high amounts of it.
- Cold pressed, extra-virgin olive is great (but not for high heat cooking)
- Beef fat and pork lard are ok. They are not as high in saturated fat as butter & coconut oil

When it comes to the old school bodybuilders you can't say that the protein and saturated fat is what made them have heart attacks since they also took steroids often made for animal consumption and HGH witch is known to enlarge the heart.

If large amounts of saturated fats and protein is bad for you then how do you explain the lack of heart diesese in the Tokelau who have a diet of coconut and fish, where coconut makes up 63% of their caloric intake meaning that 48% of their calories are saturated fat from coconuts. Or how do you explain the Maasai warriors whom also don't have any heart diesease and are on a diet of only meat, milk and blood?

The link between fat consumption and heart disease is a myth going back to the early 50s when Ancel Keys faked his 6 country study by cherrypicking the countries he used from the total dataset to get the result he wanted. This has later become basis for the whole low fat high sugar craze witch happened at the same time as there were a huge increase in obisety.

obese.gif

iu
iu


I agree that the meditiranian diet is way better than the SAD diet, but that might just as well be because they don't consume as much processed junk and the really toxic vegitable oils like canola, safflower, corn oil and so on instead of it being healthy in and of itself. The problem is that we are comparing it with one of the worst diets you could be on.

I'll end the post with this graph, it speaks for itself don't you think?
Saturated-Fat-and-Vegetable-Oils-Versus-Heart-Disease-USA.jpg
 

Barefaced

Sparrow
Other Christian
But it's often multiple countries in one bottle. That seems suspicious to me. It's tough to find single origin olive oil in supermarkets.
Not only multiple countries, but multiple continents!

I got the Bragg brand (known for their apple cider vinegar) at the supermarket; it is listed as being 100% sourced from Greece, specifically Crete.
I use it sparingly and mostly stick to virgin coconut oil and butter. Done with canola, soy and all that garbage.
 

Early Bird

Woodpecker
Catholic
Walmart has the California brand which is probably a safe bet in terms of purity and origin. I am not a huge fan of the mild flavor of their normal variety though so I actually got their blend, which has a more potent flavor. I think it's still pretty safe though. Otherwise, maybe amazon has some good single origin ones. I think the Greek ones that are not huge brands are probably ok.

You have to be careful with all major brands, particularly of Italian origin. I am even suspicious of these labels suggesting proof of purity (National Olive Oil Association). These "associations" were created by the major olive oil brands who then charge a ridiculous fee to be a member, and only the major brands can of course afford to be the members of their own club. These were the brands that were accused of adulterating their product so they created this fake organization to make them seem more legit. I don't see any third party independent lab analysis, and they give a bunch of excuses as to why they don't provide that.

There are stories of people going to prison in Italy for adulterating this stuff, but in the U.S. where the laws are more relaxed, they can get away with it. Apparently the same Colavita in Italy that is pure is not pure in the U.S., and apparently the mob is behind the adulteration in the olive oil industry in Italy. Can't verify that but I remember reading it somewhere. If you go to Colavita's website now their CEO addresses the issue not with proof but just by offering his good will and begging us to trust him.

Perhaps it is legit, I don't know. I actually like the taste of Colavita. But the point is that sometimes you can't even trust these associations. You will have to pretty much look at the color (is it dark green?) and taste. I prefer a very pungent flavor because even if it's a strong and not a mild oil at least I am pretty sure it is pure.

The study at UC Davis which generated all this controversy is somewhat questionable as it was funded by the California olive industry who was in direct competition with the Italian producers. So who knows. Very murky waters. Still I think going by taste and visuals is smart, and I do think that California brand is decent.
The mafia is involved with most commercial Italian olive oil unfortunately, and it can be hard to verify purity. If you are lucky enough to have family or friends in the Italian countryside to ship some to you directly then you won't have to worry about that.

There are some great smaller brand options available from Spain & Greece as well.
 

Early Bird

Woodpecker
Catholic
When it comes to the old school bodybuilders you can't say that the protein and saturated fat is what made them have heart attacks since they also took steroids often made for animal consumption and HGH witch is known to enlarge the heart.
Yes and no. Yes, the drugs were obviously bad (though they didn't take nearly as much back then as they do today) but excess protein and fat is hard to digest and puts strain on the body. This is why typically people eat less protein as they get older and shift to more heart-healthy diets and exercise (at the expense of reduced muscle mass). You should aim to get lighter as you age, as this is easier on your heart and joints. Also many cancer survivors eliminate meat and dairy from their diets. But I understand what you're saying.
I am very in tune with my body from being health conscious for so long, and I can feel my own breathing become more laboured if I consume too much saturated fat in a day. Everything needs to be balanced. Just my experience.

If large amounts of saturated fats and protein is bad for you then how do you explain the lack of heart diesese in the Tokelau who have a diet of coconut and fish, where coconut makes up 63% of their caloric intake meaning that 48% of their calories are saturated fat from coconuts. Or how do you explain the Maasai warriors whom also don't have any heart diesease and are on a diet of only meat, milk and blood?

A few things here. First, obviously the activity levels associated with any given diet will change how people are affected by that diet. Spending your days walking/running/climbing/swimming and getting blasted with vitamin D with no pollution anywhere for miles is different than consuming a similar diet without those corresponding beneficial components. Second, portion size is a huge factor -- I imagine these people aren't eating buffets of these high-caloric food sources everyday until they black out in a coma with type-2 diabetes. Thirdly, that's basically all they eat...so they're not getting more than adequate daily intake of these fats in addition to grains, processed sugars, fake oils, alcohol, etc. There's a give and take. Fourth, of course there are always some outliers -- there are some vegetarians who can put on muscle easier than the 'hard gainers' etc. Difference in natural hormone levels, genetics, and so on.
The link between fat consumption and heart disease is a myth going back to the early 50s when Ancel Keys faked his 6 country study by cherrypicking the countries he used from the total dataset to get the result he wanted. This has later become basis for the whole low fat high sugar craze witch happened at the same time as there were a huge increase in obisety.

I wouldn't say it's a myth. I would say it depends on the type and quantity of the fats one consumes. Too much is no good, and can endanger the heart. Again, eating fatty beef, water and steamed vegetables every day is going to be much healthier than eating chips, cakes, and processed trans fats. Most people in the west eat all of these things, and they overdue the quantity in relation to their activity levels. Yes I agree low fat high sugar is bad. It was one of the fad diets I remember from back in the day.
obese.gif

iu
iu


I agree that the meditiranian diet is way better than the SAD diet, but that might just as well be because they don't consume as much processed junk and the really toxic vegitable oils like canola, safflower, corn oil and so on instead of it being healthy in and of itself. The problem is that we are comparing it with one of the worst diets you could be on.
Agreed. This is related to point #1 in my second paragraph above. The food is fresher and more natural as well. And Mediterranean people get blasted with vitamin D pretty much year round. I believe both are true simultaneously -- that their diet is healthy in and of itself, and that it's especially healthier compared to the average American's.

Cheers
I'll end the post with this graph, it speaks for itself don't you think?
Saturated-Fat-and-Vegetable-Oils-Versus-Heart-Disease-USA.jpg
 

Early Bird

Woodpecker
Catholic
But it's often multiple countries in one bottle. That seems suspicious to me. It's tough to find single origin olive oil in supermarkets.
Not sure if they exist in your area, but small European mom & pop shops are usually a gold mine for the good stuff. They don't do the volume of the big stores and so don't have to play ball with the usual distribution suspects. Often they will import themselves, or buy from a wholesale place with actual family/friend connections to the homeland.

It will cost a little more but it's worth it imo -- especially for your homemade pizzas :)
 

frankunderwood

Pigeon
Protestant
Yes and no. Yes, the drugs were obviously bad (though they didn't take nearly as much back then as they do today) but excess protein and fat is hard to digest and puts strain on the body. This is why typically people eat less protein as they get older and shift to more heart-healthy diets and exercise (at the expense of reduced muscle mass). You should aim to get lighter as you age, as this is easier on your heart and joints. Also many cancer survivors eliminate meat and dairy from their diets. But I understand what you're saying.
I am very in tune with my body from being health conscious for so long, and I can feel my own breathing become more laboured if I consume too much saturated fat in a day. Everything needs to be balanced. Just my experience.

A few things here. First, obviously the activity levels associated with any given diet will change how people are affected by that diet. Spending your days walking/running/climbing/swimming and getting blasted with vitamin D with no pollution anywhere for miles is different than consuming a similar diet without those corresponding beneficial components. Second, portion size is a huge factor -- I imagine these people aren't eating buffets of these high-caloric food sources everyday until they black out in a coma with type-2 diabetes. Thirdly, that's basically all they eat...so they're not getting more than adequate daily intake of these fats in addition to grains, processed sugars, fake oils, alcohol, etc. There's a give and take. Fourth, of course there are always some outliers -- there are some vegetarians who can put on muscle easier than the 'hard gainers' etc. Difference in natural hormone levels, genetics, and so on.

I wouldn't say it's a myth. I would say it depends on the type and quantity of the fats one consumes. Too much is no good, and can endanger the heart. Again, eating fatty beef, water and steamed vegetables every day is going to be much healthier than eating chips, cakes, and processed trans fats. Most people in the west eat all of these things, and they overdue the quantity in relation to their activity levels. Yes I agree low fat high sugar is bad. It was one of the fad diets I remember from back in the day.

Agreed. This is related to point #1 in my second paragraph above. The food is fresher and more natural as well. And Mediterranean people get blasted with vitamin D pretty much year round. I believe both are true simultaneously -- that their diet is healthy in and of itself, and that it's especially healthier compared to the average American's.

Cheers

Both having high muscle mass and foregrip strength is associated with lower all cause mortality in older people. Therefore I don't see why you would want have lower muscle mass as you age. That being said, there could be a point where adding more muscle inverts that association.

Those "heart healty" diets combined with excersice don't only reduce saturated fat and meat consumption, but also reduce fast food, processed food and sugar consumption so we are mesuring several things at once. The Sydney heart study is very interesting since the participants in the study recently had a cononary event and were admitted to hospitals where their diet and excercise were controlled during the study. One group had their saturated fats replaced with PUFAs, the result was that they died at a higher rate than the control.

Many of those on a either a keto or carnivore diet report having a adaptation period of a week or two before they feel good on it, since it takes some time to ramp up bile production, switch the metabolism over to burning more fat and converting some protein to the small amount of glucose your brain needs. It's good that you are fit, healty and feel great on your diet. You are somewhat similar to the Tokelau and Massai warriors in that you keep active, don't eat much processed food as I understand it from your posts. The big question then is: What is it that keeps both you and others healthy from heart desease and in general, is it the the amount of saturated fat in your diet or something else?

I don't buy the link between saturated fat comsumption and heart diesease when saturated fat consumption has been stable over time while both vegitable oil comsumption and heart diesease increased in a correlative manner since we started consuming vegitable oil. That the six country study cherrypicked the data to get the result they wanted, and the primitive tribes with very high saturated fat consumption and no heart diesease makes me confident in saying it is a myth.

I do agree that the quality of the food matters and that we eat too much crappy foods and move too little. When it comes to obesity increasing the quality would solve much of the issue. It is way harder to overeat on fatty steak and non-starchy veggies for example than it is on some sloppy tacos, pizza or hamburgers even if you bathe the steak in butter.
 

frankunderwood

Pigeon
Protestant
ive been using perilla seed oil, neutral flavor good heat characteristics, anyone has any thoughts on this?
I don't know if perilla oil is refined in the same dangerous industrial manner as other seed oils leading to the neutral flavor or if it is inherent to the perilla seed. The break down of SFA, MUFA and PUFA in perilla is somewhere between safflower and soybean oil. Very high in PUFA in other words. It's high in omega-3 in the form of ALA just like flaxseed, canola and soybean oil. You can only convert a single digit percentage of that to DHA and EPA, the form of omega-3 that your body actually uses.

Unless perilla is produced in a similar manner as olive oil I don't see there being a qualitative diffrence between it and any of the other highly processed oils. I would not use it for cooking regardless as it will break down as you heat it because of the high PUFA content. I would rather use olive oil as it's high MUFA content makes it more tolerant to heat by default. By tolerant to heat I don't mean smoke point, but at what point the oil oxidizes or turns into trans fats.
 

SebastianReal

Pigeon
Catholic
I know an earlier poster cast aspersions on the UC Davis Olive Oil study, but I have been using the brand (Apollo) that had tested highest in their 2010 study (in terms of its content of oleuropein, oleocanthal, and other health-promoting polyphenols), and it has had a measurable (beneficial) impact on my tested blood triglyceride levels (and likely a favorable effect on other health parameters that I have not specifically tested).

I would be shocked if their olive oil was shown to be counterfeit: aside from their positive test results, the (natural) olive taste in their oil is palpable, and it exhibits the tart, deep flavor that usually indicates a high content of polyphenols (as described by the scientific literature). The company is a small, locally-owned olive farm and olive press in Yuba County, hardly the mass commercial enterprise that would have the means (and influence) to bribe a non-profit, university study to gain a hegemony over the olive oil market. I suppose that any small company can act as a buccaneer and adopt ambitious, Machiavellian tactics -- like bribing university researchers to falsify data -- to gain market share, but that seems unlikely in this scenario (given that the publicity was rather low from the UC Davis study, and the overwhelming majority of normie olive oil consumers could give less of a fuck about olive polyphenols or any of our borderline autistic-level concerns; they'll either purchase the cheapest bottle or the one with the healthiest-looking design).

I usually buy an "economy" 1.32 gallon box of olive oil from their online store every month or two, which I can link if you private message me. I would link it here, but this is my first post here, so I don't want to seem like a company shill or some traveling olive oil salesman.

UC Davis has also done a recent study that has shown that most of the budget supermarket avocado oils either contained blends of seed oils (soybean, canola, etc) or exhibited moderate degrees of rancidity. This could all be commercial shilling to push more expensive, local California brands, but it seems unlikely to me, due to my own personal experience and analysis.

I have to get back to work, but I will post later about the myth of olive oil being inferior to cook with (due to its low smoke point and its alleged affinity for oxidation during cooking).
 
Last edited:

SebastianReal

Pigeon
Catholic
Please do, I'm interested in the olive oil cooking topic.
To start (and to clarify my last post), the smoke point on olive oil (between 365 and 410 F depending on the levels of virginity/refinement) is not a myth.

Cooking with extremely high heats tends to be detrimental to nutrients, compounds, and byproducts within most foods (and I think that God sends us a telling omen by making burnt food generally taste bad/chalky). Extremely high heat cooking has (most notably) shown to be carcinogenic with meats, mostly due to the formations of two groups of chemicals: heterocyclic amines (HCA's) and polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAH's). Now, there are ways to reduce the formation of these chemicals even if you cook your meats in high heats: various studies have shown that marinating your muscle meats in combinations of olive oil, rosemary, lemon, and garlic can reduce the formations of HCA's and PAH's anywhere from 20% to 90%, but I digress from my initial point about olive oil oxidation during cooking....
 

SebastianReal

Pigeon
Catholic
There was a noted 2018 Australian study that put this fear of cooking-induced olive oil oxidation to the test, by heating up olive oil (along with various other cooking oils like sunflower, canola, grape-seed, avocado, etc.) to 464 degrees Fahrenheit and then leaving them at 356 degrees Fahrenheit for six hours. Extra virgin olive oil yielded the low levels of polar compounds and inflammatory oxidative by-products (even outperforming avocado oil), in contrast to the high levels of inflammatory by-products that were generated for oils like canola, sunflower, and other seed oils. Olive oil's remarkable performance seemed to be due its healthy fatty acid profile (relatively low in inflammatory omega-6 fatty acids and high in omega-9 fatty acids), along with its high phenol and antioxidant content (which is yet another reason to purchase high polyphenol oil, like I referenced in my last post).

Coconut and avocado oil performed the second and thirst best in the study (respectively), so feel free to use those if you have some personal vendetta against olives. One particular benefit of coconut oil is that it seems to be less prone to oxidation at room temperature during storage (which helps if you tend to buy jars in bulk).

As an ending note, I know that we shouldn't treat one study as gospel, but this study's parameters, controls, and testing metrics were well-defined and well-devised, so I think its findings shed much better light on this issue than any of the untested rumors that have widely circulated amongst health forums about the dangers of cooking with olive oil.
 
Top