Assyrian Church of the East

They're Nestorians, and their church practices have undoubtedly been influenced heavily by their main presence being in Islamic lands. Having said that, they're probably also been among the most heavily persecuted Christians in modern times.

Example of said persecution in history:
The Chinese rebels led by Huang Chao slaughtered Jews, Muslim Arabs, Muslim Persians, Zoroastrians (a.k.a. Parsees or Mazdaists) and Christians when they seized and conquered, according to Arab writer Abu Zayd Hasan As-Sirafi. Huang Chao's army was in Guangzhou during 878–879.[9][10][11][12][13][14][15] Mulberry groves were also ruined by Huang's army.[16] Only the Arabic source of Abu Zaid mentions the massacre; Chinese sources of the Tang dynasty history say nothing of the massacre and only mention Huang Chao occupying Guangzhou and retreating after disease struck his army.


Most of the victims were foreign and wealthy.[17]


The death toll could have ranged from 120,000 to 200,000 foreigners.[18][19][20]


Foreigners have at different periods settled in China; but after remaining for a time, they have been massacred. For instance, Mohammedans and others settled at Canton in the ninth century; and in 889, it is said that 120,000 foreign settlers were massacred[21]
— the American Baptist Foreign Mission Society, "The Baptist missionary magazine" (1869)

As a result the Syriac Church ceased to exist in China. Until the Mongols.



In contrast to the Roman Empire. Where Christians weren't massacred wholesale both leadership and all laity. They were persecuted sporatically. The cult of the martyrs was able to exist because all the laity and leadership wasn't all killed.
 

FrancisK

Kingfisher
Gold Member
Are you Chaldean Catholic? Is it true they venerate Nestorius?

Yea i am, my last name actually translates to “Priests” in old Aramaic we used to have a lot in the family however many centuries ago. But I don’t know the answer to your question to be honest, if you could ask me how to determine that I would be more than happy to find out. I know a lot here with all the new converts and of course this being a discussion forum have taken the deep dive into Christianity all around but for me I was raised Catholic, I’m a believer as my entire family tree is and i try to be a good man for myself, god and the ones i love. There wasn’t any more to figure out or any if ands or buts about it….I guess I never needed more than that, not sure if that makes me a bad Catholic that I don’t know more of the very specifics of my religion.
 
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fiasco360

Kingfisher
Orthodox
Assyrian Christians....Solid, based Christian community and genuinely nice people. And great survivors.

ttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_Church_of_the_East

This has been the church I've grown up in as my family has a history of protecting it in the middle east.

However, I feel as if I'm in a similar situation like Roosh was with the Armenian church. I ethnically feel connected and have family history in this church but I do not feel a strong connection to God in it.

They're Nestorians, and their church practices have undoubtedly been influenced heavily by their main presence being in Islamic lands. Having said that, they're probably also been among the most heavily persecuted Christians in modern times.

Unfortunately I'm inclined to agree. The church being iconoclastic is likely a result of persecutions and requiring Assyrians to flee to remote mountain locations to worship. However - I won't pretend to be extremely knowledgeable in this area.

You guys would love an Aramaic mass, I’ve been to a mass with Father Birkha….very honorable, conservative and traditional service. The Assyrians commingle with us Chaldeans a lot…

Assyrians and Chaldeans Catholics are the same people ethnically. Religious issues and poor church leaders have caused a division attempting to make Chaldeans feel as if they are not Assyrian. I have people in my family that are members of both churches.
 

FrancisK

Kingfisher
Gold Member
This has been the church I've grown up in as my family has a history of protecting it in the middle east.

However, I feel as if I'm in a similar situation like Roosh was with the Armenian church. I ethnically feel connected and have family history in this church but I do not feel a strong connection to God in it.



Unfortunately I'm inclined to agree. The church being iconoclastic is likely a result of persecutions and requiring Assyrians to flee to remote mountain locations to worship. However - I won't pretend to be extremely knowledgeable in this area.



Assyrians and Chaldeans Catholics are the same people ethnically. Religious issues and poor church leaders have caused a division attempting to make Chaldeans feel as if they are not Assyrian. I have people in my family that are members of both churches.

Yes there was a time in history where Assyrians and Chaldeans were the same but they no longer are, they all originated from Sumerians first and then Mesopotamians in the end with everything in between. We’re brothers regardless.

So you’re no longer part of the Assyrian church you’re now Orthodox?
 
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BLMeToo

Sparrow
Guess I'm not the only Chaldean here. Nice.

I'm generally not a fan of the ACOE, mostly because they refuse to fully join Rome because they're pissed at the Chaldean Church over the whole "Assyrian vs. Chaldean" debate. In fairness to the Assyrians, their anger is somewhat justified. But the way they value the Umta over Christian unity (when there's virtually zero theological disputes with the Catholic Church) bugs me.
 
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FrancisK

Kingfisher
Gold Member
Guess I'm not the only Chaldean here. Nice.

I'm generally not a fan of the ACOE, mostly because they refuse to fully join Rome because they're pissed at the Chaldean Church over the whole "Assyrian vs. Chaldean" debate. In fairness to the Assyrians, their anger is somewhat justified. But the way they value the Umta over Christian unity (when there's virtually zero theological disputes with the Catholic Church) bugs me.

Every Assyrian person I meet tries to convince me that I’m Assyrian, to the point where they are visibly upset about it. I always tell them the same thing, we speak different languages, we claim different places as home, we have different traditions and we have different religions….so how am I Assyrian at this point? If you want to go back centuries fine then we’re both Sumerian. I really don’t understand their constant obsession over it, do Germans do the same to Austrians or Russians to Ukrainians? Iraqis to Kuwaitis?
 

Pancras

Sparrow
Guess I'm not the only Chaldean here. Nice.

I'm generally not a fan of the ACOE, mostly because they refuse to fully join Rome because they're pissed at the Chaldean Church over the whole "Assyrian vs. Chaldean" debate. In fairness to the Assyrians, their anger is somewhat justified. But the way they value the Umta over Christian unity (when there's virtually zero theological disputes with the Catholic Church) bugs me.
The Assyrian Church of the East, otherwise known as the Nestorians, have a somewhat sketchy sacramental theology, to put it mildly — they say that there are only five, Extreme Unction and Holy Matrimony not being found on their list. They have not preserved the Catholic faith in the Holy Eucharist, since they believe what the Lutherans believe, that the Holy Eucharist is both bread and the Body of Christ. In other words, they do not believe in Transubstantiation, however, they do believe in the sacrificial nature of the Eucharist.

Somewhat more disturbing is their consecration formula that they use in their anaphora (canon) of the Mass is invalid. Their priest never recites the words of consecration, This is My Body, nor This is the chalice of My Blood...with the subsequent words. Nor does he recite anything even similar to them. The words of consecration which Our Lord used at the Last Supper cannot be found. There is nothing even equivalent. Nowhere in their anaphora is the Body and Blood of Christ signified; it does not even mention the Body and Blood of Christ. Hence, their Eucharist is invalid.
 
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BLMeToo

Sparrow
The Assyrian Church of the East, otherwise known as the Nestorians, have a somewhat sketchy sacramental theology, to put it mildly — they say that there are only five, Extreme Unction and Holy Matrimony not being found on their list. They have not preserved the Catholic faith in the Holy Eucharist, since they believe what the Lutherans believe, that the Holy Eucharist is both bread and the Body of Christ. In other words, they do not believe in Transubstantiation, however, they do believe in the sacrificial nature of the Eucharist.

Somewhat more disturbing is their consecration formula that they use in their anaphora (canon) of the Mass is invalid. Their priest never recites the words of consecration, This is My Body, nor This is the chalice of My Blood...with the subsequent words. Nor does he recite anything even similar to them. The words of consecration which Our Lord used at the Last Supper cannot be found. There is nothing even equivalent. Nowhere in their anaphora is the Body and Blood of Christ signified; it does not even mention the Body and Blood of Christ. Hence, their Eucharist is invalid.
The consecration the Assyrians use in their anaphora is the same as in the Chaldean Catholic Church, which has been ruled valid by Rome, so that's not really an issue. I did forget about their sacramental theology, which is a bit odd. But, according to the Catholic Church, the Assyrian Church of the East has valid sacraments, including the Eucharist.

Every Assyrian person I meet tries to convince me that I’m Assyrian, to the point where they are visibly upset about it. I always tell them the same thing, we speak different languages, we claim different places as home, we have different traditions and we have different religions….so how am I Assyrian at this point? If you want to go back centuries fine then we’re both Sumerian. I really don’t understand their constant obsession over it, do Germans do the same to Austrians or Russians to Ukrainians? Iraqis to Kuwaitis?
Yeah, I mean...culturally we are closest to the ancient Assyrians, so I get where they're coming from. But I agree with you, we are not like the ancient Assyrians, nor should we want to be. We are a Christian people, and aside from our liturgical language and faith traditions, there isn't much binding us to Umta Atur. I care more about our history as a Christian people than I do about Sargon ben Pagan-Warlord-Who-Was-Probably-A-Murderous-Immoral-Tyrant. The irony is, the ancient Assyrians were basically the Muslim Arabs of their time. They conquered and brutalized their neighbors into submission. But hey, they were pagans, so I get it. Still, it's nothing I feel any sort of pride in.
 
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Pancras

Sparrow
The consecration the Assyrians use in their anaphora is the same as in the Chaldean Catholic Church, which has been ruled valid by Rome, so that's not really an issue. I did forget about their sacramental theology, which is a bit odd. But, according to the Catholic Church, the Assyrian Church of the East has valid sacraments, including the Eucharist
Hang on…It is true in 2001 the “Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith”, the Novus Ordo replacement for the Holy Office, with the explicit approval of John Paul II, issued a document which permits Chaldean Catholics to attend the Masses of the Nestorians, and to receive Communion at their liturgies — a document which devastates all Catholic sacramental doctrine. It is the teaching of the Catholic Church is that the Church does not have the power to change anything which pertains to the substance of the sacraments. Just as the Church is not free to approve of milk or wine as the matter for Baptism, or to approve of ashes as the matter for Confirmation. Because these elements would not signify what Christ determined as the substance of these sacraments. Likewise the Church is not free to alter the words of the sacrament in such a way that they do not convey the meaning which Christ intended.

Thus, in his maniacal eagerness to do ecumenism, John Paul II scrapped the immemorial teaching of the Church concerning the sacraments contained in the Fathers of the Church, in the unanimous consent of the Doctors of the Church and all theologians, in the teaching of the Council of Florence and of the Council of Trent, of the Catechism of the Council of Trent, in the teaching of Pope Pius XII, and of all of the liturgical tradition and discipline of the sacraments. Whether you accept him as a true pope or not, that is simply something he does not have the power to do.

Without the consecration formula (“Institution Narrative”), the Nestorian anaphora is invalid. De fide. An ecumenism-motivated “ruling” from bureaucrats in Modernist Rome simply cannot change that fact, no more than they could rule that a baptism with whiskey, In the name of Jim, Jack, and Hank, is a valid baptism.
 

FrancisK

Kingfisher
Gold Member
The consecration the Assyrians use in their anaphora is the same as in the Chaldean Catholic Church, which has been ruled valid by Rome, so that's not really an issue. I did forget about their sacramental theology, which is a bit odd. But, according to the Catholic Church, the Assyrian Church of the East has valid sacraments, including the Eucharist.


Yeah, I mean...culturally we are closest to the ancient Assyrians, so I get where they're coming from. But I agree with you, we are not like the ancient Assyrians, nor should we want to be. We are a Christian people, and aside from our liturgical language and faith traditions, there isn't much binding us to Umta Atur. I care more about our history as a Christian people than I do about Sargon ben Pagan-Warlord-Who-Was-Probably-A-Murderous-Immoral-Tyrant. The irony is, the ancient Assyrians were basically the Muslim Arabs of their time. They conquered and brutalized their neighbors into submission. But hey, they were pagans, so I get it. Still, it's nothing I feel any sort of pride in.

Haha happy you said it and not me! One time while trying to have a rational discussion with an Assyrian about it he got really irate and just started insulting me. I told him “maybe it’s just that we don’t want to be affiliated with barbarians and you guys still wish you were Babylonians”…..which really hit him hard it was pretty funny….
 

BLMeToo

Sparrow
Haha happy you said it and not me! One time while trying to have a rational discussion with an Assyrian about it he got really irate and just started insulting me. I told him “maybe it’s just that we don’t want to be affiliated with barbarians and you guys still wish you were Babylonians”…..which really hit him hard it was pretty funny….

Let me guess, his name was Sargon or Ashur.

In fairness to us Chaldeans, our people can be very retarded too. It's so sad seeing the moral breakdown of our people in America thanks to western culture, and thinking they're immune to it because they have a Rosary in their rear-view mirror and a Maryam Athra statue on their porch. Meanwhile Chaldeans basically run the marijuana industry in Michigan, and have no problems intoxicating people to buy a house in Bloomfield Hills.
 

FrancisK

Kingfisher
Gold Member
Let me guess, his name was Sargon or Ashur.

In fairness to us Chaldeans, our people can be very retarded too. It's so sad seeing the moral breakdown of our people in America thanks to western culture, and thinking they're immune to it because they have a Rosary in their rear-view mirror and a Maryam Athra statue on their porch. Meanwhile Chaldeans basically run the marijuana industry in Michigan, and have no problems intoxicating people to buy a house in Bloomfield Hills.

Brother don’t get me started you are preaching to the choir. Ever notice how the most outwardly religious ones are also the worse ones? They’re scared because they know they are bad people, they were always drug dealers now they’re just “legal” drug dealers.

My moms family all came here young the vast majority are all born here other than my aunts and uncles. They are trash, money has completely corrupted them all they do is fight, wish ill upon each other, jealousy, envy….it’s sick. My fathers side most of them are off the boat the last of them didn’t even come until the early 2000’s. It’s the most beautiful family dynamic you’ve ever seen it’s like they are still living in the village together, truly one for all and all for one, no disrespect, no fighting, no jealousy, everyone pulls for each and helps each other…..if not my oldest uncle will slap your face off then followed by my oldest aunt, our family gatherings are a blast from the past it’s great and even relatives on my moms side when they commingle sometimes say they wish they were more like that. Mind you they are even more successful than my moms side, they just haven’t been corrupted yet…..but it’s coming I see the signs in the really young ones especially the girls….
 

BLMeToo

Sparrow
Brother don’t get me started you are preaching to the choir. Ever notice how the most outwardly religious ones are also the worse ones? They’re scared because they know they are bad people, they were always drug dealers now they’re just “legal” drug dealers.

I suppose by "outwardly religious" you mean the ones that talk or boast about it the most but don't know know what the Church actually teaches. In fairness, I do think our priests are very good (even the not-so-great ones). And there are faithful people, but like you said, western materialism has immense power in corrupting them. It's almost comical, seeing the toxic blend of Arabized values and western values coalescing in our community into something that is uniquely toxic.

My moms family all came here young the vast majority are all born here other than my aunts and uncles. They are trash, money has completely corrupted them all they do is fight, wish ill upon each other, jealousy, envy….it’s sick. My fathers side most of them are off the boat the last of them didn’t even come until the early 2000’s. It’s the most beautiful family dynamic you’ve ever seen it’s like they are still living in the village together, truly one for all and all for one, no disrespect, no fighting, no jealousy, everyone pulls for each and helps each other…..if not my oldest uncle will slap your face off then followed by my oldest aunt, our family gatherings are a blast from the past it’s great and even relatives on my moms side when they commingle sometimes say they wish they were more like that. Mind you they are even more successful than my moms side, they just haven’t been corrupted yet…..but it’s coming I see the signs in the really young ones especially the girls….

This is almost verbatim the same dynamic in my family. Mom's side came in the 80's, they fight and bicker and are completely dysfunctional. I don't even want to be around them. Dad's side came after the Second Gulf War...they don't curse or yell, they get along. They actually go to mass on Sundays. Just being around them is peaceful. Mom's side was rich but extremely materialistic. Grandpa was also a communist (that was a thing back home, a lot of Chaldeans in a certain village were pinko commies because they wanted to align with the Soviet Union). I think there has to be some generational moral effect passed down his line for his participation in Marxism.

Here's a fun anecdote that illustrates how dysfunctional my mom's family is:

I spent a couple weeks with my dad's side in another state, and since they didn't speak much English, I spoke (broken) Surath with them. The next time I saw my cousin (dad's nephew), he pulled me aside and said "Maaaan, where you learn to speak Surath like that?" I asked what he meant. He said, "You use lot of bad words. You can't use bad words like that with my aunt. We don't talk like that." Apparently my family curses so much in Surath and Arabic that I assumed that's how everybody spoke Surath.
 
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