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<blockquote data-quote="Pray_Everyday" data-source="post: 1600383" data-attributes="member: 24642"><p>I appreciate your response, and respectful tone. I will attempt to address all the points you listed, but after this it would perhaps be best that we make separate thread on the Ladies forum to continue this discussion and not clog up/derail this thread.</p><p></p><p></p><p>First off, the statistics I referred to in 2 of my posts actually prove that using a midwife is safe - in Europe. Where the word "midwife" is used to refer to a woman who has gone through nursing school and is medically qualified. The (non college educated) direct entry American midwives will show prospective clients these European statistics in order to claim it is safe. It wasn't just the one I hired, but 2 other ones we interviewed (more on this later) who pulled out the same European statistics. It is a matter of comparing apples to oranges.</p><p></p><p></p><p>In my original post regarding this topic I <em>never even </em>mentioned using an obgyn, or that they were preferable. I simply said (factually) that American direct entry midwives use statistics from Europe to prove to prove that what they are offering (which is not the same service) is safe. Here is my first post in its entirety.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>As you can see, the word 'obgyn' was never even mentioned. The other poster responded by attacking obgyns, and the medical industrial complex - which I also, quite frankly, detest. I admit I let my emotional woman side take over and let myself get distracted but my original point remains- if it is safe to use uneducated midwives, why do they only show statistics from Europe? Could it be because the statistics from the US are less than stellar?</p><p></p><p>(And yes, the majority of births will turn out fine. But wouldn't those straightforward births have turned out also fine in the absence of an uneducated birth attendant? In the case of an actual emergency what life-saving aid can an uneducated woman provide, besides dialing 911 and hoping her client gets to the professionals in time.)</p><p></p><p>The examples I gave that (imo) prove more education is needed are not even necessarily specific to the midwife I hired. I don't want to post links, because I worry it will be indecent and lewd, but as I've found out more recently there are a whole lot (the majority?) of midwives that believe, among other things, that sex acts should be connected with childbirth (whether it's the husband and wife, or even the midwife to the birthing mother), that - as mentioned in another post- cannibalism should take place, and that have a grade school -or worse- understanding of basic hygiene. It was not just specific to this midwife, is my point. These things are not mentioned by the midwives until long after the clients have handed over the nonrefundable payment. Why the secrecy?</p><p></p><p>I agree with your point about a busy Christian family woman not having the time to get the education needed to be a registered nurse midwife. Yes, the midwife we hired was married, with children, whom she homeschooled. As I mentioned she was not a Christian, but she knew that we were. The reason she was picked over the other options was because they were full blown woke SJW and this one was not. As I mentioned in one of my reply posts, she described herself as 'holistic`, a label which I've now become wary of because of this experience. As I've said before in this thread, when we asked about the methodology of anything related to the labour and birth all we got for an answer was a vague "we have our ways". This was the same answer from all the midwives we spoke to. Once again, why the secrecy? </p><p></p><p>You are also correct that often times more regulation results in worse results. The path to hell is paved with good intentions, true. At the same time, if any random person is able to set up shop in their living room delivering babies, lies about the safety of said activity (while waving around European statistics that don't apply), and then there is no recourse for the people that get hurt, well, this is a problem. You yourself admit that some women or babies have been hurt. I thank God every day that my son and I are alive and well and all we lost is our money.</p><p></p><p>You are correct about people who have been hurt taking on an "activism" role, though rather than to turn back the clock I would say it is simply to help any other potentials from being victims. In the end, if someone knows all the facts and wants to go through with it that is their business, and between them and God. Perhaps they don't have a conviction that engaging in sex acts during labor (or to induce labor) is wrong, perhaps they dont believe that by trying to make childbirth pleasurable or "orgasmic" (their words, not mine) they are acting in direct defiance of God, etc. But it is wrong for women to get trapped into this unaware, and as I mentioned in a previous post, we did not know that these things would be heavily pressured by the midwife. There needs to be a conversation about things to beware of among Christians, rather than people just saying they once knew a midwife who was Christian and had not (yet?) had any bad outcomes.</p><p></p><p>Regarding an overhaul of the medical system, I wasn't talking strictly about the finance side of it, or insurance. I meant the reasons why women choose to use midwives instead. Obgyns abuse women physically, force them into medical procedures they do not want, often against their informed consent. Some women want to give birth in random positions, or decline some of these medical procedures, others want to delay the newborn assessment, etc. In recent times hospitals have done some things to attempt to meet women halfway, but more is needed (and realistically is not going to happen). There are horrible, pushy or negligent doctors out there and some women are victims of this.</p><p></p><p>These women are primed to be taken advantage of by midwives (as I was, and others out there have been as well). I believe (hence I said speculation) that this is by design, "controlled opposition" if you will. On baby/pregnancy forums anytime a woman expresses dissatisfaction or trauma regarding a hospital birth the response universally given is "hire a midwife instead!"; it is never "maybe women should be educated on how to stand up for their patient rights at hospitals" or "if a doctor does a procedure against consent it should be considered assault". It is never focused on how to better navigate or outsmart the system, but rather to take an (arguably less safe) alternate option. And even if the safety issues are brought up, never is the subversive - and frankly <em>perverted</em> - ideology of many (most?) midwives mentioned. It's hard to beware things that no one mentions to beware.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Pray_Everyday, post: 1600383, member: 24642"] I appreciate your response, and respectful tone. I will attempt to address all the points you listed, but after this it would perhaps be best that we make separate thread on the Ladies forum to continue this discussion and not clog up/derail this thread. First off, the statistics I referred to in 2 of my posts actually prove that using a midwife is safe - in Europe. Where the word "midwife" is used to refer to a woman who has gone through nursing school and is medically qualified. The (non college educated) direct entry American midwives will show prospective clients these European statistics in order to claim it is safe. It wasn't just the one I hired, but 2 other ones we interviewed (more on this later) who pulled out the same European statistics. It is a matter of comparing apples to oranges. In my original post regarding this topic I [I]never even [/I]mentioned using an obgyn, or that they were preferable. I simply said (factually) that American direct entry midwives use statistics from Europe to prove to prove that what they are offering (which is not the same service) is safe. Here is my first post in its entirety. As you can see, the word 'obgyn' was never even mentioned. The other poster responded by attacking obgyns, and the medical industrial complex - which I also, quite frankly, detest. I admit I let my emotional woman side take over and let myself get distracted but my original point remains- if it is safe to use uneducated midwives, why do they only show statistics from Europe? Could it be because the statistics from the US are less than stellar? (And yes, the majority of births will turn out fine. But wouldn't those straightforward births have turned out also fine in the absence of an uneducated birth attendant? In the case of an actual emergency what life-saving aid can an uneducated woman provide, besides dialing 911 and hoping her client gets to the professionals in time.) The examples I gave that (imo) prove more education is needed are not even necessarily specific to the midwife I hired. I don't want to post links, because I worry it will be indecent and lewd, but as I've found out more recently there are a whole lot (the majority?) of midwives that believe, among other things, that sex acts should be connected with childbirth (whether it's the husband and wife, or even the midwife to the birthing mother), that - as mentioned in another post- cannibalism should take place, and that have a grade school -or worse- understanding of basic hygiene. It was not just specific to this midwife, is my point. These things are not mentioned by the midwives until long after the clients have handed over the nonrefundable payment. Why the secrecy? I agree with your point about a busy Christian family woman not having the time to get the education needed to be a registered nurse midwife. Yes, the midwife we hired was married, with children, whom she homeschooled. As I mentioned she was not a Christian, but she knew that we were. The reason she was picked over the other options was because they were full blown woke SJW and this one was not. As I mentioned in one of my reply posts, she described herself as 'holistic`, a label which I've now become wary of because of this experience. As I've said before in this thread, when we asked about the methodology of anything related to the labour and birth all we got for an answer was a vague "we have our ways". This was the same answer from all the midwives we spoke to. Once again, why the secrecy? You are also correct that often times more regulation results in worse results. The path to hell is paved with good intentions, true. At the same time, if any random person is able to set up shop in their living room delivering babies, lies about the safety of said activity (while waving around European statistics that don't apply), and then there is no recourse for the people that get hurt, well, this is a problem. You yourself admit that some women or babies have been hurt. I thank God every day that my son and I are alive and well and all we lost is our money. You are correct about people who have been hurt taking on an "activism" role, though rather than to turn back the clock I would say it is simply to help any other potentials from being victims. In the end, if someone knows all the facts and wants to go through with it that is their business, and between them and God. Perhaps they don't have a conviction that engaging in sex acts during labor (or to induce labor) is wrong, perhaps they dont believe that by trying to make childbirth pleasurable or "orgasmic" (their words, not mine) they are acting in direct defiance of God, etc. But it is wrong for women to get trapped into this unaware, and as I mentioned in a previous post, we did not know that these things would be heavily pressured by the midwife. There needs to be a conversation about things to beware of among Christians, rather than people just saying they once knew a midwife who was Christian and had not (yet?) had any bad outcomes. Regarding an overhaul of the medical system, I wasn't talking strictly about the finance side of it, or insurance. I meant the reasons why women choose to use midwives instead. Obgyns abuse women physically, force them into medical procedures they do not want, often against their informed consent. Some women want to give birth in random positions, or decline some of these medical procedures, others want to delay the newborn assessment, etc. In recent times hospitals have done some things to attempt to meet women halfway, but more is needed (and realistically is not going to happen). There are horrible, pushy or negligent doctors out there and some women are victims of this. These women are primed to be taken advantage of by midwives (as I was, and others out there have been as well). I believe (hence I said speculation) that this is by design, "controlled opposition" if you will. On baby/pregnancy forums anytime a woman expresses dissatisfaction or trauma regarding a hospital birth the response universally given is "hire a midwife instead!"; it is never "maybe women should be educated on how to stand up for their patient rights at hospitals" or "if a doctor does a procedure against consent it should be considered assault". It is never focused on how to better navigate or outsmart the system, but rather to take an (arguably less safe) alternate option. And even if the safety issues are brought up, never is the subversive - and frankly [I]perverted[/I] - ideology of many (most?) midwives mentioned. It's hard to beware things that no one mentions to beware. [/QUOTE]
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