Bar owner, prosecuted for killing in self-defense, commits suicide

LeoniusD

Kingfisher
The old Democrats that stood for the working class, good wages, strong unions, protective tariffs etc - they are gone mate. The current Republicans are partly the old Democrats. Trump isn't saying anything that old Democrats in the 1980s did not stand for. In fact - he is like a 1980s Democrat in many ways. The pendulum just swung far far left pulling the Republicans along with them.
 

Kona

Crow
Gold Member
you have to look at it from his viewpoint - the guy was a believer - a true believer in the American Way of old, a believer in Trump,

And look where that got him...

This whole situation is really sad. It's terrible to see a fellow successful veteran lose his life too soon. It's also sad to see that a kid like the one he killed get the idea in his head that doing what he was doing is ok.

The feeling of "what was the point" that veterans get when they see people acting the way some of these "protesters" act is one I understand. I make a lot of "I fought in two wars" jokes but some of this crap blows my mind. What was the point of Jacob Gardner ,or any vet, fighting in a war just to come home damaged, overcome the damage, then get screwed by the country he fought for?

Plus, you can tell from videos I watched that he's a moral dude. Remember that he probably had a lot of guilt running through his physically damaged brain over taking another American's life, regardless of their color or creed. That was probably eating him more than any property or freedom loss he was facing.

Aloha!
 

LeoniusD

Kingfisher
That was my point - you cannot be a blue-eyed believer anymore. At best you can be hopeful that the American Way will be fine or will come back.

Most of us would have recommended him to stay out of it, secure his bar with steel plates from the outside, open only after all of this has calmed down.

There are also good reasons to join the military, but you should be aware that you will be used and abused to fight for the elite and kill innocent people abroad.

He was a good moral man, but he was too naive for this system and the state it is in right now.
 

NoFunInAus

Woodpecker
That was my point - you cannot be a blue-eyed believer anymore. At best you can be hopeful that the American Way will be fine or will come back.

Most of us would have recommended him to stay out of it, secure his bar with steel plates from the outside, open only after all of this has calmed down.

There are also good reasons to join the military, but you should be aware that you will be used and abused to fight for the elite and kill innocent people abroad.

He was a good moral man, but he was too naive for this system and the state it is in right now.

I disagree respectfully. He stood his ground and got taken out. We should honour him as a fallen soldier. No need to lambast him.
 

LeoniusD

Kingfisher
I disagree respectfully. He stood his ground and got taken out. We should honour him as a fallen soldier. No need to lambast him.

I don't even disagree. I respect him for standing up for what he believed in. Those men become your bread and butter when you actually have a chance to lead a rebellion, win a war against an oppressive force. And honestly - not everyone goes through the same information and life experience highway that let them perceive reality the same as other men. He stood on the right side of history, but was just overwhelmed. The rioters and BLM thugs think that they are so righteous when in reality they are nothing but bolshevik scum that will be swept aside by the elite as soon as they are no longer needed. At least he died more like a paladin knight fighting for what he believed in - everyone should respect that especially since he did not want to do any harm to anyone.
 

Days of Broken Arrows

Crow
Gold Member
I am that person. I'm an outdoorsman and have great respect for the environment and our place in it. I grew up support Democrat talking points, supporting feminist ideals and all that claptrap. It wasn't until a few years ago that I realized my 'liberalism' was self defeating and the nu-Democrats have only one goal: Destroying this country and turning into a socialistic shithole.

MY GF is still an old School Democrat but since she is a chick she hasn't gone through the snow job that they've put white males through. All this 'Patriarchy' crap and all that. I told her that they've torn white guys to shreds and that white woman are next on their hit list and she better wake up soon. It's only a matter of time.

Next? Ha! I can go you one better than that. White women have more or less replaced white men as the target, because of the Karen meme (and to a lesser extent, the "Becky" insult black women like to use).

Although we're talking now about a white guy who got in the crosshairs, this year has brought us more white women showing up on videos and in news stories because blacks were offended by something.

You might wanna tell you're g/f, don't look now, but you're name just got changed to...Karen.
 

Mike_Key

Robin
I see that someone has placed the Medium article that doesn't name too many sources, but simply claims many racist charges directed toward the family.

I'm not white yet I know all races can be racist --- but there is respect for one another and they/you move on.

The Black kid -- he, sadly, did not move on ...

He wanted some violence ... violence was sadly delivered.

Anyhow, to my main point ...

I was listening to a Mobster on YouTube recently. When asked if there was corruption in the legal system he said "Yes there is". The example he gave; he said that a guy was defending himself on the streets when attacked by one (1) or jumped by many. Anyhow, said Guy, the victim, stabbed an attacker three (3) times. The Prosecuting attorney argued that after the 1st stabbing or strike, the actions became "murder" or grave assault. (Sets a bad precedent for true victims that do fight back)

Can you believe it?

I can, we are now a weak country with milquetoast men/women prosecutors and Judges (mind you, some 80 year old senile judges).

And from reading this story (the OP) -- you can no longer shoot two (2) warning shots. You can only shoot one, 1. The 2nd warning shot will be counted as Assault.

This is why I argue that we need people to yet go to College, Universities and Law schools. We need smart people as Attorneys, Prosecutors, Defense attorneys and Judges. We need engineers, scientists, teachers, home owners, business owners to take part in Juries.

Someone recently said "Jury of your peers, those weirdos, post-modern SJWs will likely throw you - an innocent person - in jail."

Even our Police are weak, they'll set up a Speed Trap as you are leaving your State to go on vacation - they'll trap hundreds of cars on a given day collecting $15,000 in fines - but they listen to partisan Mayors when told to stand down on deadly violence and otherwise the perfect arrests with perfect evidence.

Barr is now taking Federal Monies away from Anarchist States - that's a step forward but sad that it took 100 + days.

John 3:16
 

Thomas More

Hummingbird
I see that someone has placed the Medium article that doesn't name too many sources, but simply claims many racist charges directed toward the family.

I'm not white yet I know all races can be racist --- but there is respect for one another and they/you move on.

The Black kid -- he, sadly, did not move on ...

He wanted some violence ... violence was sadly delivered.

Anyhow, to my main point ...

I was listening to a Mobster on YouTube recently. When asked if there was corruption in the legal system he said "Yes there is". The example he gave; he said that a guy was defending himself on the streets when attacked by one (1) or jumped by many. Anyhow, said Guy, the victim, stabbed an attacker three (3) times. The Prosecuting attorney argued that after the 1st stabbing or strike, the actions became "murder" or grave assault. (Sets a bad precedent for true victims that do fight back)

Can you believe it?

I can, we are now a weak country with milquetoast men/women prosecutors and Judges (mind you, some 80 year old senile judges).

And from reading this story (the OP) -- you can no longer shoot two (2) warning shots. You can only shoot one, 1. The 2nd warning shot will be counted as Assault.

This is why I argue that we need people to yet go to College, Universities and Law schools. We need smart people as Attorneys, Prosecutors, Defense attorneys and Judges. We need engineers, scientists, teachers, home owners, business owners to take part in Juries.

Someone recently said "Jury of your peers, those weirdos, post-modern SJWs will likely throw you - an innocent person - in jail."

Even our Police are weak, they'll set up a Speed Trap as you are leaving your State to go on vacation - they'll trap hundreds of cars on a given day collecting $15,000 in fines - but they listen to partisan Mayors when told to stand down on deadly violence and otherwise the perfect arrests with perfect evidence.

Barr is now taking Federal Monies away from Anarchist States - that's a step forward but sad that it took 100 + days.

John 3:16


As far as I can understand, the laws against brandishing mean you cannot show your weapon at all, or warn them that you have it and will shoot. You must keep it secret and not mention it, and if you pull it out, you must shoot them. Seems to go against common sense, but that's my understanding.

Do any other RVF members have information about the laws covering brandishing a weapon?

Also, my understanding is that self defense is a very tricky legal situation. You must stop immediately as soon as the threat to you has ceased. If someone punches you in the face, you can punch them back, but if you knock them on their ass and they are not fighting back in that moment, you can't kick the shit out of them. I imagine the same thing applies when you stab or shoot someone. If you stab or shoot them once, and they are not obviously continuing to attack you, you have to stop.

I think if you do a double stab as fast as you can, or a double tap while they are still up and threatening you, that will be valid, but if you pause in between, and video shows the attack stopped after the first stab or shot, then you are at fault for any additional hits.
 

Canopus

Kingfisher
The left has no sense of morals or even a since of right or wrong. They are simply mob rule seeking to destroy everything good because deep down they know they can't uphold a good and just society. In a good and just society they are the losers.


Even for someone who was obviously not elected for her brains, that is an astonishingly odious tweet. (After a cursory Google search, I'm not surprised Hunt was toasted after winning the office not for her actual policies, but for being openly atheist and bisexual. Because those checkboxes matter more to the left than, I don't know, fixing roads or helping people find work.)

This is someone with active evil in her heart. The kindest thing I can say is that I truly hope she's voted out.
 

Mike_Key

Robin
As far as I can understand, the laws against brandishing mean you cannot show your weapon at all, or warn them that you have it and will shoot. You must keep it secret and not mention it, and if you pull it out, you must shoot them. Seems to go against common sense, but that's my understanding.

Do any other RVF members have information about the laws covering brandishing a weapon?

Also, my understanding is that self defense is a very tricky legal situation. You must stop immediately as soon as the threat to you has ceased. If someone punches you in the face, you can punch them back, but if you knock them on their ass and they are not fighting back in that moment, you can't kick the shit out of them. I imagine the same thing applies when you stab or shoot someone. If you stab or shoot them once, and they are not obviously continuing to attack you, you have to stop.

I think if you do a double stab as fast as you can, or a double tap while they are still up and threatening you, that will be valid, but if you pause in between, and video shows the attack stopped after the first stab or shot, then you are at fault for any additional hits.

I appreciate your reply, thx sincerely, although I'd like to think that people like you and also people in power would be reading these sentiments -- rooting and cheering on the victim's right to fight back.(You may very well feel that way) This as opposed to citing the laws that are restrictive and frightening to decent law abiding citizens. For what I want, I suppose we can only travel or go to Florida and Texas, maybe some other States down south where you can defend yourself.

Too, in another thread earlier this summer - another guy like you ... I appreciate you all but another guy like you - he jumped on and cited very clear and very dry law. This law that is cited is like stale Toast at breakfast - it gives no comfort to a stand-up citizen that has worked his whole life paying his taxes, raising his family and finds himself having killed a "rap-sheet loaded" criminal, likely 3 time convicted felon.

"Well buddy, that's just how things are ... time for you to get screwed over. Time for your prison stay."

Imagine a United States with 25 States total that mirror Florida and Texas.

Remember that Antifa AK-47 gun toting person shot dead in Austin Tx? He flashed his barrel at an Army private or Army Sergeant. That guy died, the Army Sergeant was back at his job 1 day later.

In other States the stand-up citizen is kept in jail for 3 weeks, his guns confiscated for 6 to 9 months, loses his job, get divorced shortly thereafter and "wussified" AGs, Lawyers and Judges self-masturbate at all the destruction that they can bring on said stand-up citizen.

One day, hopefully, the USA will have a mere 25 States like Florida -- not being led by nancy-boy effeminate men and feminist women.
 

Thomas More

Hummingbird
I appreciate your reply, thx sincerely, although I'd like to think that people like you and also people in power would be reading these sentiments -- rooting and cheering on the victim's right to fight back.(You may very well feel that way) This as opposed to citing the laws that are restrictive and frightening to decent law abiding citizens. For what I want, I suppose we can only travel or go to Florida and Texas, maybe some other States down south where you can defend yourself.

Too, in another thread earlier this summer - another guy like you ... I appreciate you all but another guy like you - he jumped on and cited very clear and very dry law. This law that is cited is like stale Toast at breakfast - it gives no comfort to a stand-up citizen that has worked his whole life paying his taxes, raising his family and finds himself having killed a "rap-sheet loaded" criminal, likely 3 time convicted felon.

"Well buddy, that's just how things are ... time for you to get screwed over. Time for your prison stay."

Imagine a United States with 25 States total that mirror Florida and Texas.

Remember that Antifa AK-47 gun toting person shot dead in Austin Tx? He flashed his barrel at an Army private or Army Sergeant. That guy died, the Army Sergeant was back at his job 1 day later.

In other States the stand-up citizen is kept in jail for 3 weeks, his guns confiscated for 6 to 9 months, loses his job, get divorced shortly thereafter and "wussified" AGs, Lawyers and Judges self-masturbate at all the destruction that they can bring on said stand-up citizen.

One day, hopefully, the USA will have a mere 25 States like Florida -- not being led by nancy-boy effeminate men and feminist women.

Just to be clear, I'd like to blow people like these rioters away. I've tried to avoid the protests, but I did get caught with protesters blocking the road in front of me twice when I wasn't expecting it. I can imagine a situation where I was avoiding trouble, but it managed to find me anyway. In that case, I would be perfectly willing to run over the people surrounding my truck to get to safety, and I would be perfectly willing to shoot an attacker.

However, I would always try to be aware of the dividing line between strict self defense, and anything that could be called retribution. They may deserve it, but I'd rather not be in the position to have to defend myself against murder charges with a biased prosecutor.
 
You can be indicted for anything. It’s a really low hurdle. The way a grand jury is set up is to ask is there probably cause- meaning is there a 50% likelihood that the person did this or could be guilty. An actual conviction requires beyond a reasonable doubt- 90% threshold. Grand juries are one sided- you don’t even get to defend yourself- and you aren’t even there in the courtroom- it just means some people in a room with a prosecutor were shown some cherry picked evidence to support the state’s claim- and anything that undermines their claim is excluded. If this case actually went to trial, he would have a good chance of winning.

He wasn’t charged with murder. He was charged with manslaughter. Couple other things- he fired two warning shots in the air. That’s a big rookie mistake- you either shoot to kill (you felt your life was threatened) or don’t shoot at all. If you shoot in the air, you weren’t threatened enough to kill someone so the tables get turned on you and you get screwed. Those were two of his charges- two shots in the air- two charges for attempted assault.

The other part deals with intent and state of mind. If you are aggravated, and go looking for a fight, get into a fight, the other person starts whooping up on you, and you kill them- that probably wouldn’t meet the legal hurdle of self defense. The key here is INTENT. If he intended to get in a fight, and does, and kills someone, but it wasn’t premeditated murder, then you get hit with manslaughter (literally you slaughtered a man but didn’t really mean to). He was posting incriminating statements on Facebook before the event, and had some FB messenger conversations that made him look like he was itching for a fight. That diminishes the claim of self defense. He also made the mistake of turning over his cellphone. Smash that thing! Keep it locked and software updated! Don’t use Face ID or finger print ID- the cops can get a warrant and use your face or thumb to legally unlock a phone. If you have a password- they can’t compel you to unlock it. They can’t reach into your mind to get your password- the Supreme Court has confirmed that. Somehow he turned over his phone and gave them access (probably a military dude feeling like he was “doing the right thing” to clear himself). Only thing he should have said right after the shooting was here is my name and I want an attorney. After that SHUT UP. And stay off Facebook! If they didn’t have the Facebook conversations or the full access to the phone, the case would have gone nowhere.
 

Murdock

Sparrow
First, this is a tragedy. This man served his country, ran a business and was likely seen as a “pillar of the community” except for those who disliked his political views. His reward for defending himself was being slandered and vilified. I will pray for him and his family. Maybe the Lord will have mercy on those who drove him to it-I won’t.

A lot of good points have been made in this thread and others about how the system appears to be rigged against the real victim. Not just here but in so many other cases. I’ve thought a lot before about what would happen if I ever found myself unjustly accused of something. That’s why I’m going to bring this up: Could he have “disappeared” or gone on the run?

I’m not joking, if I was facing something like this I would be seriously considering it as an option. When something like this happens your life is over. At least as you knew it. In his case, if it wasn’t the attempt at an indictment using an outside prosecutor, there was:

1. At the bare minimum the destruction of his social life and good standing in the community. There was no way he was coming back from that, not with the angry mob. Also, I read that his lease on the bar had been canceled.
2. The constant fear. If it wasn’t this, they’d be out to get him on something else. I know it’s very different but look at OJ Simpson’s 8 year conviction as an example, a lot of people suspect Fred Goldman has a hand in that. He would not have been able to walk down the street without being harassed. He’d have to leave town one way or another.
3. Money. The bar was gone, and who would hire him? Even his best friends couldn’t do it without being harassed as well or having their family threatened. Anywhere he moved it would come up in a background check. Then there’s the family of the dead man who’d be out for blood, and the best way to get it would be through a civil trial where they might win some kind of settlement.

If his passport hadn’t been confiscated and his accounts hadn’t been frozen, then would running/disappearing have been a viable option? At least until the second trial was over-if there were one? I know it’s not easy-I’ve looked it up a few times just out of interest. But I’d rather take my chances on the run.

I’m not trying to derail this thread, but something like this is going to happen to someone again and I think it’s worth some discussion.
 
Perhaps one business owner should go camo-ghillie incognito and help remove riotous looters at another business owners location and vice versa, that way no one gets slammed for defending their own property, and the loss of countless bolshevik scum pawns is a mystery to the fat evil pedos in charge of this hostile takeover. Not suggesting violence, perhaps paintballs or even net guns or just other ways of humiliating these mindless animals. Business owner 1 and business owner 2 swap places for the evening, take up a post adjacent from the respective business with a vantage point on the primary area where a looter would commit vandalism and destruction, and take pot shots until they move on to the next place. Could even have a round table of several business owners all rotating so no one can place them at their own place during the defense of the siege.
 
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