Blizzard 2016

[The Beast1]

DOBA,

Midjack's advice is gold. Whatever you do don't start your car up and let it idle unless you plan on driving it. Cold weather is rough on cars and if the engine doesn't get up to operating temp you can introduce moisture to the oil which degrades it making your engine work harder.

Your car is fine. If it dies and you need a jump it's high time to buy a new car battery anyway. They're super cheap and easy to install.

Letting it idle for 10-15 minutes isn't going to hurt a damn thing.

Moisture in the oil doesn't make the engine work harder. Where do you hear these things? It degrades the oil faster, but no different than short trips do. His oil isn't going to turn into sludge from letting it idle.

There is a reason oil change intervals change for how you drive your car. Lots of short trips and you change more often, on a mileage basis, than if you drive long highway distances.

If Mech wasn't on sabbatical he would agree with my statements.

And yes, a battery has a cold crank rating. However it doesn't go from full to dead at the snap of the fingers. Sitting for a long period will weaken it. As I said earlier, if it is already older and weaker, sitting for several days in the cold may discharge it enough to not start the car. Letting it run for a while will get it back to full charge.

If it isn't obvious, I get really tired of people regurgitating bullshit they heard from some buddy that doesn't know shit.

So start your car and let it run for a while DOBA. It will not hurt it one damn bit.

Edit-Have a new car dealership in the family and have been in and around the business my entire life. I know WTF I am talking about.

First, cool story bro, I work on my cars and have been for almost 8 years. What did you do for your family business besides sit around and mention it on some web forum? Did you work in the garage or spend any time fixing your own vehicles?

Second, do you know DOBA's maintenance history? Do you know how old his car battery is? What about the performance of his alternator or how often he changes his oil?

Oh you don't know, so wouldn't it stand to reason to give him more general advice than to say, "Go ahead and idle your car to charge the battery. It won't hurt anything!"

The "regurgitated bullshit" comes from my Haynes manual, three factory service manuals (MBZ, VW, and Toyota),my car's owner manual, and a ton of internet resources. I'm happy to let El Mech correct me when he's free from time out.

In the meantime, take some time to enlighten yourself and while you're at it drop the snark. Here's a PDF from an environmental division of Forsyth county NC on this very topic of idling engines:
https://www.forsyth.cc/eap/Documents/Idling_Myths.pdf

Quoted for fun:

Myth 2: Idling is good for
your engine.
Excessive idling can actually damage
your engine components, including
cylinders, spark plugs, and
exhaust systems.
An idling engine is not operating at
its peak temperature, which means
that fuel does not undergo complete
combustion.
This leaves fuel residue that can
condense on cylinder walls, where
they can contaminate the oil and
damage parts of the engine.
For example, fuel residues are often
deposited on spark plugs. As
you spend more time idling, the
average temperature of the spark
plug drops.
This makes the plug get dirty more
quickly, which increases fuel consumption
by 4 to 5 %.
Excessive idling also lets water condense
in the vehicle’s
exhaust, leading to corrosion
and a reduction of
the life of your exhaust
system.
When not actively driving,
people tend to idle
their cars largely for one
of two reasons: either to
warm up the engine before
driving or due to
waiting to drop off or pick up kids,
or sitting in car wash lines, drive-thru
lanes, etc.
By understanding the effects of
idling and reducing the practice, you
can improve your car’s performance,
save money, and reduce needless air
pollution emissions.

Now i'm willing to admit that a lot of this damage comes from repeated idling over a long period of time especially in cold starts. Will DOBA have issues doing this once? Probably not.

However, my next point plays into how long he will need to idle his car to get a charge needed to actually start the car assuming he's having issues with the battery having enough cold amps to turn over the starter.

There are a few variables involved in regards to charging a battery over the alternator. Namely the size of the battery, its general health, and to what extent we want it charged. Do we want it charged 100% or enough to start it the next time?

The charging capacity of the alternator and the quality of the connections all play into this. The engine RPM won't really matter as anything from just above idle will have the alternator at full output.

If you have a 100 amp alternator and and a 500 amp battery that was dead it would take 5 hours under ideal conditions to fully charge it. However we don't have ideal conditions for obvious reasons. It's cold, we don't know the health of the alternator/battery, and there will be some loss due to the wiring and connections between everything.

As a rough estimate I would guess that an hour should charge it enough to start it the next time as long as the engine can start without extended cranking time.

10-15 minutes of idling isn't enough time to give a battery a charge needed to restart the car again if the battery is in poor health. Do you seriously think idling a car for an hour to get enough of a charge to restart the car is a necessary thing to do?

Just drive the damn car doing some errands around town to get a healthy kick. If you want to really make sure you're good to go, replace the battery if it is out of warranty or disconnect the battery and get a smart charger. Then charge the battery inside a vented building.

All of this is moot if the battery is replaced when its service life is up which generally costs around $100. You can find this info on the battery itself.

 

[AntiTrace]

In addition to the knowledge beast dropped, it is useful to have a portable jumper in your car. They actually are a bit expensive, I think mine was around 150. You plug it in at home until it's a full charge, and then leave it in the trunk. It's saved my ass once and I've jumped a bunch of people with it.

 

[Hotwheels]

DOBA,

Midjack's advice is gold. Whatever you do don't start your car up and let it idle unless you plan on driving it. Cold weather is rough on cars and if the engine doesn't get up to operating temp you can introduce moisture to the oil which degrades it making your engine work harder.

Your car is fine. If it dies and you need a jump it's high time to buy a new car battery anyway. They're super cheap and easy to install.

Letting it idle for 10-15 minutes isn't going to hurt a damn thing.

Moisture in the oil doesn't make the engine work harder. Where do you hear these things? It degrades the oil faster, but no different than short trips do. His oil isn't going to turn into sludge from letting it idle.

There is a reason oil change intervals change for how you drive your car. Lots of short trips and you change more often, on a mileage basis, than if you drive long highway distances.

If Mech wasn't on sabbatical he would agree with my statements.

And yes, a battery has a cold crank rating. However it doesn't go from full to dead at the snap of the fingers. Sitting for a long period will weaken it. As I said earlier, if it is already older and weaker, sitting for several days in the cold may discharge it enough to not start the car. Letting it run for a while will get it back to full charge.

If it isn't obvious, I get really tired of people regurgitating bullshit they heard from some buddy that doesn't know shit.

So start your car and let it run for a while DOBA. It will not hurt it one damn bit.

Edit-Have a new car dealership in the family and have been in and around the business my entire life. I know WTF I am talking about.

First, cool story bro, I work on my cars and have been for almost 8 years. What did you do for your family business besides sit around and mention it on some web forum? Did you work in the garage or spend any time fixing your own vehicles?

Second, do you know DOBA's maintenance history? Do you know how old his car battery is? What about the performance of his alternator or how often he changes his oil?

Oh you don't know, so wouldn't it stand to reason to give him more general advice than to say, "Go ahead and idle your car to charge the battery. It won't hurt anything!"

The "regurgitated bullshit" comes from my Haynes manual, three factory service manuals (MBZ, VW, and Toyota),my car's owner manual, and a ton of internet resources. I'm happy to let El Mech correct me when he's free from time out.

In the meantime, take some time to enlighten yourself and while you're at it drop the snark. Here's a PDF from an environmental division of Forsyth county NC on this very topic of idling engines:
https://www.forsyth.cc/eap/Documents/Idling_Myths.pdf

Quoted for fun:

Myth 2: Idling is good for
your engine.
Excessive idling can actually damage
your engine components, including
cylinders, spark plugs, and
exhaust systems.
An idling engine is not operating at
its peak temperature, which means
that fuel does not undergo complete
combustion.
This leaves fuel residue that can
condense on cylinder walls, where
they can contaminate the oil and
damage parts of the engine.
For example, fuel residues are often
deposited on spark plugs. As
you spend more time idling, the
average temperature of the spark
plug drops.
This makes the plug get dirty more
quickly, which increases fuel consumption
by 4 to 5 %.
Excessive idling also lets water condense
in the vehicle’s
exhaust, leading to corrosion
and a reduction of
the life of your exhaust
system.
When not actively driving,
people tend to idle
their cars largely for one
of two reasons: either to
warm up the engine before
driving or due to
waiting to drop off or pick up kids,
or sitting in car wash lines, drive-thru
lanes, etc.
By understanding the effects of
idling and reducing the practice, you
can improve your car’s performance,
save money, and reduce needless air
pollution emissions.

Now i'm willing to admit that a lot of this damage comes from repeated idling over a long period of time especially in cold starts. Will DOBA have issues doing this once? Probably not.

However, my next point plays into how long he will need to idle his car to get a charge needed to actually start the car assuming he's having issues with the battery having enough cold amps to turn over the starter.

There are a few variables involved in regards to charging a battery over the alternator. Namely the size of the battery, its general health, and to what extent we want it charged. Do we want it charged 100% or enough to start it the next time?

The charging capacity of the alternator and the quality of the connections all play into this. The engine RPM won't really matter as anything from just above idle will have the alternator at full output.

If you have a 100 amp alternator and and a 500 amp battery that was dead it would take 5 hours under ideal conditions to fully charge it. However we don't have ideal conditions for obvious reasons. It's cold, we don't know the health of the alternator/battery, and there will be some loss due to the wiring and connections between everything.

As a rough estimate I would guess that an hour should charge it enough to start it the next time as long as the engine can start without extended cranking time.

10-15 minutes of idling isn't enough time to give a battery a charge needed to restart the car again if the battery is in poor health. Do you seriously think idling a car for an hour to get enough of a charge to restart the car is a necessary thing to do?

Just drive the damn car doing some errands around town to get a healthy kick. If you want to really make sure you're good to go, replace the battery if it is out of warranty or disconnect the battery and get a smart charger. Then charge the battery inside a vented building.

All of this is moot if the battery is replaced when its service life is up which generally costs around $100. You can find this info on the battery itself.

That's a lot of typing to show how wrong you are.

btw-Even in your apoplectic manifesto you say he "probably" will not hurt his car letting it idle to charge the battery.

So get over yourself.

 

[roberto]

Chill guys.

Idling won't hurt it unless you only let it idle for two minutes. If you did this it wouldn't get up to operating temp and also probably wouldn't have time to replace the battery power needed to start it, particularly if it needed a bit of cranking. In short, pointless wear.

Cars certainly do get up to operating temperature when idling- this is what the thermostat does by preventing water from circulating to the radiator before it is up to operating temp. Indeed engines can overheat whilst idling as the air is not being moved through the radiator. This is why the radiator fan cuts in when you're stuck in a traffic jam.

Beast, you make some great posts, but a PDF from the environmental department won't prove shit regarding health of the engine, they just want you to stop idling, period. But, like, global warming man..... Haynes/owners manuals are also far from authoritative and basically tell you to leave anything complicated or that isn't just 'swap this part out' to a real mechanic.

That said, I agree he shouldn't worry about it and should just replace the battery if it turns out to be knackered. If it's blanketed in snow it'll not be too frosty in the engine compartment due to the insulation effect anyhow.

One more thing guys- check your antifreeze.

Source: Done this shit all my life.

 

[The Beast1]

Chill guys.

Idling won't hurt it unless you only let it idle for two minutes. If you did this it wouldn't get up to operating temp and also probably wouldn't have time to replace the battery power needed to start it, particularly if it needed a bit of cranking. In short, pointless wear.

Cars certainly do get up to operating temperature when idling- this is what the thermostat does by preventing water from circulating to the radiator before it is up to operating temp. Indeed engines can overheat whilst idling as the air is not being moved through the radiator. This is why the radiator fan cuts in when you're stuck in a traffic jam.

Beast, you make some great posts, but a PDF from the environmental department won't prove shit regarding health of the engine, they just want you to stop idling, period. But, like, global warming man..... Haynes/owners manuals are also far from authoritative and basically tell you to leave anything complicated or that isn't just 'swap this part out' to a real mechanic.

That said, I agree he shouldn't worry about it and should just replace the battery if it turns out to be knackered. If it's blanketed in snow it'll not be too frosty in the engine compartment due to the insulation effect anyhow.

One more thing guys- check your antifreeze.

Source: Done this shit all my life.

I agree with everything you've said with the exception of the Haynes comment, the manuals i've used had everything I needed to do basic maintenance and even replace CV axles on another vehicle. What Haynes manuals have you seen this in? When in doubt, I defer back to the factory service manual but that's been very rare in most of my repairs. I'm not rebuilding anything however.

Idling for a few minutes won't hurt anything. The problem comes when trying to idle for extended periods of time to charge a car battery. Basic math and the like tells us it takes a lot longer than 10-15 minutes to get a charge enough to resuscitate a low car battery for a vehicle start as I was trying to outline above.

When in doubt, replace the battery.

That's a lot of typing to show how wrong you are.

btw-Even in your apoplectic manifesto you say he "probably" will not hurt his car letting it idle to charge the battery.

So get over yourself.

Fact of the matter is, idling a car for an hour to get a charge needed to start the car is wasteful at best and potentially harmful to the car if done repeatedly.

Seeing as you've devolved to butt hurt millennial snark, i'll take it i've won this friendly debate. Good day to you!

 

[Dr. Howard]

Chill guys.

Idling won't hurt it unless you when you're stuck in a traffic jam.

Beast, you make some great posts, but a PDF from the environmental department won't prove shit regardingg complicated or that isn't just 'swap this part out' to a real mechanic.

That said, I agree he shouldn't worry about it and should just replace the battery if it turns out to be knackered. If it's blanketed in snow it'll not be too frosty in the engine compartment due to the insulation effect anyhow.

One more thing guys- check your antifreeze.

Source: Done this shit all my life.

I agree with everything you've said with the exception of the Haynes comment, the manuals i've used had everything I needenough to resuscitate a low car battery for a vehicle start as I was trying to outline above.

When in doubt, replace the battery.

That's a lot of typing to show how wrong you are.

btw-Even in your apoplectic manifesto you say he "probably" will not hurt his car letting it idle to charge the battery.

So get over yourself.

Fact of the matter is, idling a car for an hour to get a charge needed to start the car is wasteful at best and potentially harmful to the car if done repeatedly.

Seeing as you've devolved to butt hurt millennial snark, i'll take it i've won this friendly debate. Good day to you!

Hotwheels as a millennial

 

[Guitarman]

"Days of Broken Arrows" asked ;

Advice needed from car experts:

My car has now been sitting out in the parking lot for two days. I live in a condo community and don't have a garage.

It gets below freezing here at night so I'm worried about the battery dying.

Can anyone tell me if it will help the battery to start it up tonight and let it idle for a minute or two? Or will simply starting it and not driving it drain the battery for when I really need it?

I get conflicting answers online, so I figured someone here should know. One thing I have learned is that to keep a battery charged, you need to take long highway drives. I did this during the days before the storm. Maybe that was enough."

Start the car every couple of days. Don't let it idle, run it at normal revs (2,000Rpm) until the engine is fully warm on the temp gauge and hot air is coming out of the heater (10-15mins). This will dry out the engine bay and keep the battery charged and stop the ignition getting damp. Lubricate the door locks as well with WD-40 to prevent the mechanisms freezing, and check the antifreeze strength. You can get a cheap antifreeze tester from a car parts shop.

 

[Hotwheels]

Fact of the matter is, idling a car for an hour to get a charge needed to start the car is wasteful at best and potentially harmful to the car if done repeatedly.

Seeing as you've devolved to butt hurt millennial snark, i'll take it i've won this friendly debate. Good day to you!

Police cars idle for hours every day then get turned into cabs that, wait for it.... idle for hours every day.

 

[Dr. Howard]

Fact of the matter is, idling a car for an hour to get a charge needed to start the car is wasteful at best and potentially harmful to the car if done repeatedly.

Seeing as you've devolved to butt hurt millennial snark, i'll take it i've won this friendly debate. Good day to you!

Police cars idle for hours every day then get turned into cabs that, wait for it.... idle for hours every day.

wait. But isnt' that why those uses get disclosed on seller/titles/odometers so that buyers aren't tricked by mileage that doesn't account for hours of idling?

 

[Hotwheels]

Fact of the matter is, idling a car for an hour to get a charge needed to start the car is wasteful at best and potentially harmful to the car if done repeatedly.

Seeing as you've devolved to butt hurt millennial snark, i'll take it i've won this friendly debate. Good day to you!

Police cars idle for hours every day then get turned into cabs that, wait for it.... idle for hours every day.

wait. But isnt' that why those uses get disclosed on seller/titles/odometers so that buyers aren't tricked by mileage that doesn't account for hours of idling?

Disclosure laws like that are decades old, from a different era when engines were lucky to go 100k without repair like bearings and such.

They go for hundreds of thousands of miles without breaking a sweat today.

My Avalanche has thousands of hours idling from sitting on jobsites in summer/winter with zero ill effects. Often 12 hours per day for days on end.

I like to stay comfortable.

 

[Belgrano]

Everytime there's a discussion about cars on this forum, I expect to see The Beast1 and Hotwheels battle it out like Godzilla and Mothra on a lazy Sunday afternoon.

opcorn3:

 

[Aurini]

Advice needed from car experts:

My car has now been sitting out in the parking lot for two days. I live in a condo community and don't have a garage.

It gets below freezing here at night so I'm worried about the battery dying.

Can anyone tell me if it will help the battery to start it up tonight and let it idle for a minute or two? Or will simply starting it and not driving it drain the battery for when I really need it?

I get conflicting answers online, so I figured someone here should know. One thing I have learned is that to keep a battery charged, you need to take long highway drives. I did this during the days before the storm. Maybe that was enough.

Cold wrecks a drained battery - but a fully charged one should be fine. I've left my car in -40 weather for days at a time, and everything was fine. So if your battery's charged, and fairly new (past couple of years), you shouldn't have any problems. If it's old or drained, it's already fucked.

 

[The Beast1]

Fact of the matter is, idling a car for an hour to get a charge needed to start the car is wasteful at best and potentially harmful to the car if done repeatedly.

Seeing as you've devolved to butt hurt millennial snark, i'll take it i've won this friendly debate. Good day to you!

Police cars idle for hours every day then get turned into cabs that, wait for it.... idle for hours every day.

I'm enjoying this.

Taxi cabs, police cars, and other vehicles that have high idle times follow different maintenance schedules than normal vehicles like our buddy DOBA. Fleet operators measure repair intervals with these vehicles differently. In a vehicle that has extended idling, it's recommend the the oil get changed a lot sooner than a normal passenger vehicle.

Here's a great read from Ford regarding extended idling:
https://www.fleet.ford.com/truckbbas/non-html/DeiselTips/DLSIDLETIMESS.pdf

In it they measure each hour of idling as 25 miles driven. If idling doesn't damage a vehicle, why would they recommend changing the oil at earlier intervals?

Oh Ford answers that for us:

To ensure proper fuel injector performance and durability the engine must be maintained properly.
Extended oil change intervals may cause injector damage that may lead to reduced performance, reduced
durability and possibly component failure.

And just to make sure we don't get a ,"police cars use gas" reply, here's an about.com Q&A about common repairs caused by extended idling. Here's an excerpt from it:

Engine idling does have a couple of effects on the engine, the most severe is to the connecting rod bearings. Because of the relatively slow speed of the engine, more pressure is exerted on the bottom center and top center of the bearings. The faster the engine turns, the load gets spread out more evenly over the bearing surface.

Prime vehicles for this kind of damage is police cars. Police cars spend an inordinate amount of time idling writing tickets, filling out reports and stake outs. I have replaced many a connecting rod bearing in police car engines because of this.

The other effect is not so drastic. It is an idling engine may not get hot enough to start the catalytic convert working or hot enough to run efficiently. It may also load up the catalytic converter with fuel that could lead to an early demise of the catalytic converter.

http://autorepair.about.com/library/a/1h/bl151h.htm


So what did we learn here? That taxis, police cars, and other fleet vehicles have different maintenance regiments than our friend here which allows those vehicles to idle for long periods of time without as much wear. I think it is a safe bet to assume that Day's of Broken Arrows measures his vehicle usage in miles instead of hours.

The real question is, how often are your oil changes hotwheels and how often do you replace engine components? Betcha it's pretty often. You might want to consider changing your oil more often, that Avalanche will appreciate it.

My opinion of your original reply to me:

 

[262]

^^^
Funny gif.

 

[Hotwheels]

You just don't give up do you?

I've said you are wrong.

Roberto, who works on them for a living (and doesn't need a Haynes manual), says you are wrong.


In this statement;

In a vehicle that has extended idling, it's recommend the the oil get changed a lot sooner than a normal passenger vehicle.

you agree with what I said earlier; that cars that take lots of short trips have a shorter oil change intervals.

Different intervals do not ALLOW them extended idle times. Shorter intervals are BECAUSE of idling and short trips.


Saying that, I don't change my interval due to idling and have ZERO problems. Change around 8000 miles on Mobil 1. Uses zero oil and oil pressure is right where it was when I bought it.

Must be about ready to kick a rod out, right?

Using about.com as a reference...

 

[262]

El mech is car mechanic too, isn't he?

Wonder where he is ...

 

[The Beast1]

You just don't give up do you?

I've said you are wrong.

Roberto, who works on them for a living (and doesn't need a Haynes manual), says you are wrong.


In this statement;

In a vehicle that has extended idling, it's recommend the the oil get changed a lot sooner than a normal passenger vehicle.

you agree with what I said earlier; that cars that take lots of short trips have a shorter oil change intervals.

Different intervals do not ALLOW them extended idle times. Shorter intervals are BECAUSE of idling and short trips.


Saying that, I don't change my interval due to idling and have ZERO problems. Change around 8000 miles on Mobil 1. Uses zero oil and oil pressure is right where it was when I bought it.

Must be about ready to kick a rod out, right?

Using about.com as a reference...

DOBA originally asked this:

Can anyone tell me if it will help the battery to start it up tonight and let it idle for a minute or two?

My answer was no. If he wanted any benefit he'd need to idle it for at least an hour to do any good. At that point he might as well drive it.

Roberto concurred, a minute or two will cause unnecessary wear.

Idling won't hurt it unless you only let it idle for two minutes. If you did this it wouldn't get up to operating temp and also probably wouldn't have time to replace the battery power needed to start it, particularly if it needed a bit of cranking. In short, pointless wear.

I fail to see how I am wrong. We can debate all day about idling 8,9+ hours a day and frankly I'm enjoying every minute of it.

However, my original post which you came out and started being all pissy about was what I am referring to. Idling your car for a minute or two and then turning it off will cause excessive wear if he's not planning on driving it.

Using about.com as a reference...

At least I back up my experiences with some sources. What caused you to have such a bad day?

 

[Hotwheels]

El mech is car mechanic too, isn't he?

Wonder where he is ...

Mech actually sent me a message laughing about this discussion and said this;

Here's a question? How can cop cars idle half their lives then go to auction get turned into taxis then run to 500k miles without a motor swap? How about diesel trucks? They idle for days.

That's why I threw the police car/taxi example out there.

Was curious to see how much internet research Beast would do to shore up his failed argument.

He needs to understand professionals know more than a guy that needs a Haynes manual to change his fuel filter.

 

[Hotwheels]

However, my original post which you came out and started being all pissy about was what I am referring to. Idling your car for a minute or two and then turning it off will cause excessive wear if he's not planning on driving it.

In my original post on this topic I said to let it run for ten minutes.

Following that you came blazing in with your Haynes manuals and internet links saying this;

Whatever you do don't start your car up and let it idle unless you plan on driving it.

No mention of any idle duration, just "don't let it idle", implying idling for any period of time is just terrible for an engine.

It's not.

Professionals have said you are wrong.

So drop it.

 

[The Beast1]

However, my original post which you came out and started being all pissy about was what I am referring to. Idling your car for a minute or two and then turning it off will cause excessive wear if he's not planning on driving it.

In my original post on this topic I said to let it run for ten minutes.

Following that you came blazing in with your Haynes manuals and internet links saying this;

Whatever you do don't start your car up and let it idle unless you plan on driving it.

No mention of any idle duration, just "don't let it idle", implying idling for any period of time is just terrible for an engine.

It's not.

Professionals have said you are wrong.

So drop it.

So did Quintus and Midjack. Yet you took the time to single me out and make a scene.

Did you have a chip on your shoulder today or do you have something you'd like to say to me over PM that is completely unrelated to this topic because I get the sense we have a beef that needs to be talked out over PM. Frankly brother i'd like to know because I don't have any with you.