Bringing Children into this World

dragonfire00

Sparrow
I know this is obviously something that is in His hands and also discussion between my husband and I…but I was just looking for thoughts/discussion and maybe Biblical scripture/books I can read about family planning.

Currently I have two young children (one infant), my husband claims he doesn’t want any more (he said that after the first and changed his mind a year later) because of bringing the kids into THIS world and he thinks he’s too old (early 40s). Part of me agrees that it might be a really tough time for them to be alive especially if something were to happen to us adults and the other part of me feels like since we already have 2, why not give them more support and also more hope for the future generations (unless we’re really in the End Times)? I’m in my early 30s so I have some time and God has so far blessed me with good fertility so it seems like this is something I should do if husband is on board.

Is it best to not bring it up to my husband and just rely on God?

Are any other prospective parents having these thoughts too?
 

Starlight

Robin
You should definitely bring it up to your husband. Don’t be sneaky and get knocked up and then be like “oops!” Not a good plan lol.

If your husband is on board then go for it and enjoy God’s blessings. After the fall from Grace, there is no perfect time to have children. There was this post in the 2020 elections thread which sums that up pretty succinctly, in my opinion:

If you’re thinking you really want to have another baby, definitely talk it over with your husband first. Also, think about what your pregnancy timeline might look like. My first two were back to back and that was really challenging. You say your youngest is still an infant. I’d probably wait at least until he or she is 1) not breastfeeding, and 2) at least 12-18 months old before trying for another baby. Just my two cents.

All this baby talk makes me want another one too and I have four already lol!
 

ginsu

Woodpecker
There is strength in numbers, so it seems to me the best defense against uncertain or harder future is more children not less.

I envy those with multiple brothers and sisters. I have one younger brother and we don't get along well due to both having a strong personality and being stubborn. We just gave up talking to each other because we just end up in confrontation after a while. It works fine when we have other people around to act as middlemen. Directing all energy into 1 sibling is not natural, because for all of history we had many. My parents both had 4/5 brothers & sisters and they decided to go down to 2 children.

Its very symbolic for where our culture went wrong, breaking with traditions. They also turned their backs on faith and became atheists and never exposed me to the church. I do hold them accountable for denying me and my brother the experience they had growing up and drastically changing the family composition for our future children. I am driven to reverse this mistake

If you want to contribute to the decline of western civilization have less children like our boomer parents did, if you don't want a decline do what our grandparents did and have as many children as possible. 6+. For the satanic cult politicians leading us they love to hear nothing more than white people talking about having less babies, so it seems very obvious that the opposite is the way to go.
 
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Leeloo

Robin
My husband and I have chosen not to bring our own children into THIS world. There’s too much uncertainty, and I cannot imagine what the coming years are going to be like. My husband raised his children as a single Dad from a previous relationship. When I came into their life, I helped to raise them and they are our family. They are now grown and my husband and I use our time as a child free couple, to help others and volunteer and give our talents in ways we wouldn’t be able to if we were raising small children.

I don’t think that anyone should feel that they are obligated to have children or have more children. At the end of the day, it’s up to God. Certainly don’t be careless until you speak with your husband, but the answer will eventually make itself clear to you and what’s best for your family’s situation.
 

dragonfire00

Sparrow
There is strength in numbers, so it seems to me the best defense against uncertain or harder future is more children not less.

I envy those with multiple brothers and sisters. I have one younger brother and we don't get along well due to both having a strong personality and being stubborn. We just gave up talking to each other because we just end up in confrontation after a while. It works fine when we have other people around to act as middlemen. Directing all energy into 1 sibling is not natural, because for all of history we had many. My parents both had 4/5 brothers & sisters and they decided to go down to 2 children.

Its very symbolic for where our culture went wrong, breaking with traditions. They also turned their backs on faith and became atheists and never exposed me to the church. I do hold them accountable for denying me and my brother the experience they had growing up and drastically changing the family composition for our future children. I am driven to reverse this mistake

If you want to contribute to the decline of western civilization have less children like our boomer parents did, if you don't want a decline do what our grandparents did and have as many children as possible. 6+. For the satanic cult politicians leading us they love to hear nothing more than white people talking about having less babies, so it seems very obvious that the opposite is the way to go.
My parents and grandparents had 4 actually, so I was thinking the same for us. I wish I started a bit earlier but was too busy "finding myself" (sinning) in my 20s so I don't think 6 would be possible. The dynamic of larger families is so different and fun! I think there will be a decline regardless though. Larger families tend to lean more conservative/Christian though and strong Christians will be able to survive better during hard times. Thanks for sharing! It's good to hear a perspective from someone with just 1 sibling.
 

Mrs.DanielH

Sparrow
I've thought about this a lot too in the past. A lot of our friends blame the world and finances as reasons not to have kids right now. Those are poor excuses, though tempting. God will provide for us no matter the situation. It's still scary to imagine all the horrible things that could happen in the future (the devil's plans), but we have to be open to God's plans too. Don't think about it too much or start worrying about it. Discuss with your husband, pray about it, and maybe in 6-12 months bring it up to your husband again if you are still desiring another one.
 
Curious how individual women view IVF verses natural.

Is IVF part of God's plan? Out of observation it seems IVF can be very stressful on the mother.
 

Mrs.DanielH

Sparrow
In Elder Thaddeus' book "Our Thoughts Determine Our Lives" he wrote that God is the source of all knowledge and God allows man to glean a very small portion of knowledge about the world. Now it is up to man (thanks to free will) to use this knowledge to his benefit or detriment. That being said, I think IVF is a corrupt use of the scientific knowledge we have been given. It was not part of God's plan for us, it is not how conception is supposed to take place, however, God has allowed it.

Here is the actual quote from his book, "every kind of knowledge that we discover through education is a gift from God to His people, and it proclaims His presence in this world. The practical application of what man has been given to know is quite another matter. This depends, as I have said before, on whether we live according to God or against Him. Our knowledge is used either for the benefit of mankind or against it. All knowledge that God has given mankind is for it's good; none has been given us for our destruction. It is only our free will, which is corrupt and which has lost its fear of God, that has turned the knowledge given to mankind for its own good into something evil, which is why we suffer so much in this world."

Another issue that goes with IVF is abortion since it usually involves fertilizing multiple eggs and choosing the "best" egg(s) to implant. Therefore the leftover eggs will either be discarded or left in a freezer for an indeterminate amount of time. How many thousands, if not millions of human lives are stuck in limbo as embryos because their parents decided to do IVF? And how many of them have been killed by scientists due to abnormalities, which make the egg less than ideal? In my opinion this is a bastardization of conception, and Orthodox priests have deemed it immoral to even "adopt" these embryos. Father Josiah addressed this issue in one of his talks. How sad that all those babies will never get the chance to grow up, to be loved by their parents, to glorify God on Earth, and that so many of them must be suffering in that dreaded limbo state.

Another issue I have with it is the cost, which is similar to the cost of adoption. I know not every infertile couple is not called to adoption, but I believe many couples focus too much on wanting children of their own flesh and blood. Of course there are difficulties with adoption as well, but we must remember that any children God blesses us with are not ours to begin with. They are all His, they come to us from Him, and they will return to Him.

A thought on infertility and childlessness. I know a beautiful, pious Orthodox couple. They tried to have kids for 12 years, and finally God blessed them with a daughter. What a painful journey that must have been. Only God knows why they had to wait so long. Two other couples I know were never blessed with children of their own, so they treat all of their nieces and nephews as their own. Also a painful journey to watch their siblings having children, and instead of choosing envy and anger, choosing love.
 

Starlight

Robin
In Elder Thaddeus' book "Our Thoughts Determine Our Lives" he wrote that God is the source of all knowledge and God allows man to glean a very small portion of knowledge about the world. Now it is up to man (thanks to free will) to use this knowledge to his benefit or detriment. That being said, I think IVF is a corrupt use of the scientific knowledge we have been given. It was not part of God's plan for us, it is not how conception is supposed to take place, however, God has allowed it.

Here is the actual quote from his book, "every kind of knowledge that we discover through education is a gift from God to His people, and it proclaims His presence in this world. The practical application of what man has been given to know is quite another matter. This depends, as I have said before, on whether we live according to God or against Him. Our knowledge is used either for the benefit of mankind or against it. All knowledge that God has given mankind is for it's good; none has been given us for our destruction. It is only our free will, which is corrupt and which has lost its fear of God, that has turned the knowledge given to mankind for its own good into something evil, which is why we suffer so much in this world."

Another issue that goes with IVF is abortion since it usually involves fertilizing multiple eggs and choosing the "best" egg(s) to implant. Therefore the leftover eggs will either be discarded or left in a freezer for an indeterminate amount of time. How many thousands, if not millions of human lives are stuck in limbo as embryos because their parents decided to do IVF? And how many of them have been killed by scientists due to abnormalities, which make the egg less than ideal? In my opinion this is a bastardization of conception, and Orthodox priests have deemed it immoral to even "adopt" these embryos. Father Josiah addressed this issue in one of his talks. How sad that all those babies will never get the chance to grow up, to be loved by their parents, to glorify God on Earth, and that so many of them must be suffering in that dreaded limbo state.

Another issue I have with it is the cost, which is similar to the cost of adoption. I know not every infertile couple is not called to adoption, but I believe many couples focus too much on wanting children of their own flesh and blood. Of course there are difficulties with adoption as well, but we must remember that any children God blesses us with are not ours to begin with. They are all His, they come to us from Him, and they will return to Him.

A thought on infertility and childlessness. I know a beautiful, pious Orthodox couple. They tried to have kids for 12 years, and finally God blessed them with a daughter. What a painful journey that must have been. Only God knows why they had to wait so long. Two other couples I know were never blessed with children of their own, so they treat all of their nieces and nephews as their own. Also a painful journey to watch their siblings having children, and instead of choosing envy and anger, choosing love.
I agree with what you wrote 100% and would like to add that when a woman becomes pregnant through IVF it is not unusual for her to be implanted with about four-five embryos knowing that probably half (or sometimes all) will be stillborn or miscarried. There was a woman I used to know who had her last two (fraternal twins) through IVF. She was implanted with five embryos and three of the babies were stillborn. It just seems very immoral to me and reminds me of the quote from Jurassic Park: “Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn’t stop to think if they should.”
 
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Ah_Tibor

Sparrow
I wouldn't do IVF personally but I also don't know what I would do in that position. A few years ago I was at my cousin's wedding with my husband (before we were married, I think we were 28/29) and my cousin told me to get on it fast lol. She had both her sons in her early 40s and they're healthy/happy (she's in good shape too so that makes a big difference) but IVF is an emotional and EXPENSIVE process.

If I were infertile I'd probably just get more involved with philanthropic stuff and have more animals tbh. Yes, it's not perfect or ideal, but I'd have to accept it.
 

catholicmom

Pigeon
I agree with what @Starlight and @Mrs.DanielH wrote in the posts above mine.

I will add that as a Catholic, the Church teaches against contraception and IVF (or other artificial reproductive technologies), which are essentially two sides of the same coin (both are considered grave matter and thus mortal sins if one engages in them with full awareness of this). Contraception betrays the procreative aspect of the marital act, whereas IVF betrays the unitive aspect.

I might make another post on IVF, since aside from the ethical issues involved, there are higher rates of things like autism in children conceived via IVF. Not to mention, we should wonder about the implications of leaving a baby in a freezer for [potentially] decades. I have a severely autistic relative who was conceived via IVF and was frozen for many years before being allowed to gestate in utero, and I wonder whether or not the IVF (plus the freezer time) was a contributing factor.

There are, however, herb-based treatments that are entirely natural (that work by nourishing the body and correcting systemic issues) and have led to many pregnancies after periods of infertility. Sometimes infertility signals that there are underlying systemic issues that need to be dealt with before the body can support a pregnancy, so it can be imprudent to rush into pharmaceutical options (many of which are still morally acceptable in that they do not betray the unitive aspect of the marital act, but they can result in hyper-ovulation and thus high-order multiples). I would encourage anyone struggling with infertility to consult an herbalist before trying any pharmaceuticals. Vitex, black cohosh, maca, and shatavari all operate differently, but they are worth looking into and possibly using in conjunction with other herbs.
 
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You ladies are very knowledgeable on this moral topic, and I appreciate you sharing your religious and personal views.
Everyone made some very valued points, that could further into another discussion:

  • Catholic, the Church teaches against contraception and IVF (or other artificial reproductive technologies)
  • Contraception and IVF are considered grave matter and thus mortal sins if one engages in them with full awareness
  • Implications of leaving a baby in a freezer for [potentially] decades
  • When a woman becomes pregnant through IVF it is not unusual for her to be implanted with about four-five embryos knowing that probably half (or sometimes all) will be stillborn or miscarried. :sad:
  • Another issue that goes with IVF is abortion since it usually involves fertilizing multiple eggs and choosing the "best" egg(s) to implant
  • Orthodox priests have deemed it immoral to even "adopt" these embryos
  • Infertile couples not adopting; many couples focus too much on wanting children of their own flesh and blood.

I realize IVF is what most women/families will consider instead of adoption, but when I hear about IVF my thoughts always go back to the children who have been aborted. I struggle a lot with how abortion is socially accepted in this world.
 

EndlessGravity

Kingfisher
Hard times produce strong men. We are blessed with those times right now.

There has never been a time when the world is certain. Never. It only appears that way in hindsight. My wife and I are in a similar situation to yours and will be having another. I have no idea where I'll get the energy but we're stronger together and whether we have 4 kids or 14 kids...they'll all get the support of us as a strong family.

Globalists don't want me to have kids? If polygamy were allowed I'd get 4 more wives too and having 14 kids each. Genghis Khan style. Then I'd command an army of strong men like they've never seen.
 

Starlight

Robin
Sometimes infertility signals that there are underlying systemic issues that need to be dealt with before the body can support a pregnancy,

I would encourage anyone struggling with infertility to consult an herbalist before trying any pharmaceuticals.
I’ve lurked on a lot of pregnancy forums and I don’t think you’d be surprised that many women who seemed to have fertility issues actually had very simple reasons and were able to reverse their infertility within a few cycles. I remember a post by a woman who had been trying to conceive for over a year, nothing the doctors did helped. She was pretty much told she was infertile and to seek IVF or other hormone treatments. She eventually went to a holistic doctor who discovered that the anti-histamine she had been taking was drying up her fertile cervical mucus. She stopped taking it and the next month conceived. There’s another similar story where a woman was regularly taking ibuprofen and couldn’t conceive. She eventually found out that ibuprofen and NSAIDs suppress ovulation by reducing the inflammation in the ovary that is needed for the follicle to rupture and release an egg. She stopped taking ibuprofen and conceived within the next few months. But of course, fertility doctors don’t want women to take less medication but more, especially if it’s profitable!
 

Ah_Tibor

Sparrow
One of the reasons Rasputin helped the tsarevich's hemophilia is that the doctors were prescribing aspirin (there were about three effective drugs back then, lithium being one of them and aspirin the new miracle drug), and he told them to stop all his meds. Sometimes the best course of action is doing nothing. I'd imagine a lot of that kind of stuff still goes on, especially for "infertility"
 

Mrs.DanielH

Sparrow
There are, however, herb-based treatments that are entirely natural (that work by nourishing the body and correcting systemic issues) and have led to many pregnancies after periods of infertility.
Yes, i am currently being treated by a doctor who practices using NaPro technology for hormone imbalances. I was surprised by all the natural treatments there are for the various issues. All the supplements can get expensive, but I prefer it over taking pharmaceuticals. I think a naturopath or herbalist or even the occasional PCP could treat these issues, as long as they've done the research on the treatments, potential interactions, and what labs to check.
 

catholicmom

Pigeon
I’ve lurked on a lot of pregnancy forums and I don’t think you’d be surprised that many women who seemed to have fertility issues actually had very simple reasons and were able to reverse their infertility within a few cycles. I remember a post by a woman who had been trying to conceive for over a year, nothing the doctors did helped. She was pretty much told she was infertile and to seek IVF or other hormone treatments. She eventually went to a holistic doctor who discovered that the anti-histamine she had been taking was drying up her fertile cervical mucus. She stopped taking it and the next month conceived. There’s another similar story where a woman was regularly taking ibuprofen and couldn’t conceive. She eventually found out that ibuprofen and NSAIDs suppress ovulation by reducing the inflammation in the ovary that is needed for the follicle to rupture and release an egg. She stopped taking ibuprofen and conceived within the next few months. But of course, fertility doctors don’t want women to take less medication but more, especially if it’s profitable!
Those examples are crazy! They remind me of something I've seen a lot recently on pregnancy forums - women calling Geritol* the supplement with a "baby at the end of every bottle". From what I can tell, it's basically just a liquid multivitamin with iron in it, but I've seen multiple women online report having had periods of infertility that were reversed by simply finishing a bottle of an iron-fortified multivitamin. So who knows o_O

Also, I don't think I've gone off yet on MTHFR on the forum, but I should. We need a pregnancy and birth thread! Then I can really go off. :laughter:For the time being, if you are unsure of your (or your husband's) MTHFR status, DON'T TAKE FOLIC ACID SUPPLEMENTS WHEN YOU'RE PREGNANT! Especially if you are of European descent. A large segment of the population (potentially 30%+ of European-descended people) has a genetic mutation (MTHFR) that makes folic acid toxic to the body (be aware though that most MDs will blow this off). Lots of women take prenatal vitamins that are fortified with folic acid, thinking that it will prevent neural tube defects in their baby or reverse infertility. But if you have the MTHFR mutation...folic acid can render you INFERTILE while you consume it! And it also makes you highly susceptible to vaccine injury.

Should your child have the MTHFR mutation and you take prenatal vitamins during your pregnancy, it can cause them to have neural tube defects. Neural tube defects present on a wide spectrum, with spina bifida on one extreme and tongue ties on the other extreme. I think this is one of the reasons why we have seen such an explosion in tongue ties and babies who "can't breastfeed" in recent years. I didn't know this when I was pregnant with my daughter, and she was born with a tongue tie and all of the visible markers of MTHFR. Looking back, my prenatal vitamins all contained folic acid.

Stay away from fortified breakfast cereals and wheat products too! Just as the government introduced iodization to table salt, they have introduced folic acid fortification to wheat. So pretty much any highly processed breakfast cereal or non-organic wheat product you buy (including plain wheat flour) will contain [synthetic] folic acid. With organic wheat products, you can check the label to see if they have added folic acid.

I often wonder if the push for folic acid from the government (via wheat and breakfast cereal fortification) and from industrial obstetrics (via prenatal vitamins) is not part of a greater population control conspiracy. Maybe we need a Ladies Deep Forum to discuss :squintlol: Also, on a less nefarious note, I wonder if a lot of people who cut out gluten and report feeling less sluggish do so not necessarily because of an underlying gluten intolerance, but because they are unknowingly MTHFR-positive and have effectively cut out synthetic folic acid from their diet.

*Note: Geritol DOES contain folic acid. So I don't think it's prudent to take it. There are lots of multivitamins on the market that contain [methylated] folate and B vitamins. Maybe it's been [anecdotally] connected to restoration of fertility due to the remedying of nutritional deficiencies in non-MTHFR women...
 

dragonfire00

Sparrow
I honestly didn't know much about IVF but when I started hanging out with a new mom's group I was shocked as I was one of the younger moms and also how many moms that were 35+ and even ones around 30 that did IVF. One couple had twin boys and mentioned that they had two girl embryo that they could have later, and all I could think of was what would happen if they chose not to? They just throw them out?! (Obviously yes)...
At first I thought IVF was weird when there is adoption as an option but I had a close relative give their child up for adoption instead of abortion and it was SO EXPENSIVE for their adopted parents that IVF is the same/cheaper. I don't have sympathy for women who chose to wait until 40+ to have kids and do IVF as they had enough time before, the women who do IVF in their 50s are beyond selfish. I also am very against surrogacy as I think it's wrong to use another woman's body because one doesn't want to go through pregnancy. Especially when done by gay men.

(Remember when one of the arguments for gay marriage was that it would help by adopting unwanted kids yet there's all these wealthy gay couples wanting one of their own half-offspring and using a woman's body?! I digress.....)

I have also known (again, I come from a very degenerate west coast city) women who used IVF to purposefully become single mothers. They gave up on finding a partner I guess and decided it was their right to have a child I guess. Remember when mothers put their children above their own desires? Yeah.

So with that being said I originally had less of a problem with married couples who have had trouble concieving using fertility methods. Maybe IUI is not as bad since it is just insemination and not using embryos. I guess it is also not relying on God to provide. I can kind of understand if you're older not wanting to wait though. After reading all this about IVF that I didn't realize I do think it's wrong too. Maybe if all the embryos were used it would be okay but....not sure. I wonder if there are long term effects of that.
 
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