Bringing Children into this World

Ah_Tibor

Robin
Woman
I started getting a lot of fb ads to sell my eggs or become a surrogate a few years ago. Surrogacy just weirds me out on a physical level even more than ivf. I can't imagine carrying a baby to term and then giving it up, or having someone else carry "my" baby. So wrong.

I knew a couple at my old church that got married and had a set of twins in their 50s. The kids are just kind of--off? The parents are nice people (although a little off too, lol) and a good fit for each other, but it just seems kind of counterproductive to have nannies and housekeepers to take care of your kids. I don't know. I feel the same way about daycare (which has its purpose but I saw a lot of shitty things when I worked in one and didn't want that for my potential offspring. I'd rather be around my baby all day than having a dumb micromanaging boss on me anyway lol).
 

Kona

Crow
Gold Member
If you got a loving and stable family going, the man that says he doesn't want another baby is just concerned about the burden it will have on the woman. I have a baby, and I want 9,000 more of these little vomiters.

I hope that makes sense? The point is just have another one.

Aloha!
 

Kitty Tantrum

Woodpecker
Woman
How will the world ever be set to rights if we look at how much wickedness and uncertainty there is in it, and decide that because of that, it's not worth our time or energy to bring more GOODNESS into it?

I'd have had at least a dozen babies if I could have.

Having two is better than one, in pretty much every way. Two was my minimum.

More than two is where a lot of people start running up against lifestyle limitations and incompatibilities: can only fit so many car seats in the car, rental lease won't allow another person in the dwelling, etc. These are BS fabricated "norms" and restrictions implemented by industries with anti-natal/depopulation agendas.

In my experience, and it probably has a lot to do with growing up in a very "progressive" region, men who are willing to have children at all are rare. Too many have bought into the "norms" of modernity and can't conceive of eschewing modern living for the sake of bringing new life into the world.

"How can I bring children into the world, when doing so means having to give up CONVENIENCE and LUXURY? How will I raise my children properly if I can't raise them in CONVENIENCE and LUXURY?"

"I shouldn't/don't want to have children because life might be difficult for them. They might have to work really hard instead of having the privilege of being chronically useless and stepping effortlessly into a middle-management/cubicle job that will afford them the same sterile, unfulfilling consumer life I've spent my whole life so far building."

OH DEAR, we can't have THAT, now can we???

Once you take a good hard look at the things you might be worried about "depriving" your children of... none of those things are really worth anything more than hearty chuckle.
 

Camellia

Pigeon
Woman
I know this is obviously something that is in His hands and also discussion between my husband and I…but I was just looking for thoughts/discussion and maybe Biblical scripture/books I can read about family planning.

Currently I have two young children (one infant), my husband claims he doesn’t want any more (he said that after the first and changed his mind a year later) because of bringing the kids into THIS world and he thinks he’s too old (early 40s). Part of me agrees that it might be a really tough time for them to be alive especially if something were to happen to us adults and the other part of me feels like since we already have 2, why not give them more support and also more hope for the future generations (unless we’re really in the End Times)? I’m in my early 30s so I have some time and God has so far blessed me with good fertility so it seems like this is something I should do if husband is on board.

Is it best to not bring it up to my husband and just rely on God?

Are any other prospective parents having these thoughts too?
Absolutely have more children!! I have three and feel so blessed. At times, during all this covid madness, they didn't have friends to play with but they always had each other.

The world needs more good people, not fewer. Just plan on homeschooling them so they don't get sucked into the degenerate system!
 

SchoolApple

Sparrow
Woman
My husband is older a doesn't want any more babies due to finances. :( I gain a lot of weight whenever I have one, too. Also my kids won't enjoy the America I knew growing up.
 

Puzlnut

Chicken
Woman
I know many women who tried to conceive and were unable to do so. Some did go the IUI route and then when that was unsuccessful they advanced to IVF. Some truths became very clear in conversations I had with them. First, none of them took these steps lightly. They went through emotional and physical turbulence undergoing these procedures. Second, ONLY God can cause conception, regardless of the method used to become pregnant. Science and medicine can TRY but only God will allow/cause conception. Third, it is easy for me to say "oh, I would never do _________ " or to judge someone else for their choices but until I am in that situation I don't really know what it is like for the woman (and her husband) nor can I truly say what I would of would not do. I

To be clear, all of these dear ladies were married to men and their deepest desire was to experience the joys of pregnancy, childbirth and the raising of their child/children. How is that wrong?
 

SchoolApple

Sparrow
Woman
I know many women who tried to conceive and were unable to do so. Some did go the IUI route and then when that was unsuccessful they advanced to IVF. Some truths became very clear in conversations I had with them. First, none of them took these steps lightly. They went through emotional and physical turbulence undergoing these procedures. Second, ONLY God can cause conception, regardless of the method used to become pregnant. Science and medicine can TRY but only God will allow/cause conception. Third, it is easy for me to say "oh, I would never do _________ " or to judge someone else for their choices but until I am in that situation I don't really know what it is like for the woman (and her husband) nor can I truly say what I would of would not do. I

To be clear, all of these dear ladies were married to men and their deepest desire was to experience the joys of pregnancy, childbirth and the raising of their child/children. How is that wrong?
I don't agree with IVF or any artificial attempts to make babies (homosexuals/pedophiles are now working on creating embryos cooked in fake wombs) but you make a compelling argument. The women who can't have children seem to go absolutely nuts, screaming to their friends and family about it every day, getting more desperate as time passes. Then there are those who accept their fate with dignity, quiet, and silence.
 

muhtea

Robin
Woman
To be clear, all of these dear ladies were married to men and their deepest desire was to experience the joys of pregnancy, childbirth and the raising of their child/children. How is that wrong?

How many of them had previous sexual partners? How many were on contraceptive pills when they met their husbands? How many of them waited until they were almost 30 to start trying? If any of these apply, there are temporal consequences to these choices. There aren't a lot of women who are 18-22 who have only been with their husbands and haven't taken contraceptive pills who can't conceive.

It is indeed sad when people can't have babies when they want them, but feelings don't have any bearing on the truth. Emotionalism is not a compelling argument. Not having been in a particular position doesn't preclude exercising judgment on it as a moral issue. We can have compassion but that doesn't mean affirming wrongdoing to alleviate sadness.

Practicing acceptance is the best remedy for things like this. There are no guarantees in life whatever you do.

Now, this idea that God wills every conception, I think, is false, and in this case being used as a justification for using IVF (following one's own will and desires) - if it works, it was God's will! Well, if it doesn't work, then it was also God's will, so if the natural way didn't work, maybe that too is God's will and should be accepted as such in the first place.

But in reality, procreation is a gift God has given us to use or abuse. God isn't sitting on His throne saying this person is worthy, that person isn't. People are making free choices that result in conception or not. If a single woman gets pregnant from a sperm bank, is that God's will? If lesbians go to their gay man friend and get some semen in a turkey baster so they can pretend to be parents, is that God's will? I doubt it.

In my understanding of Genesis, we're made in the image of God so we participate in creation - God creates, we procreate. Nowhere is it said that every pregnancy is "God's will".
 

messaggera

Woodpecker
Woman
Third, it is easy for me to say "oh, I would never do _________ " or to judge someone else for their choices but until I am in that situation I don't really know what it is like for the woman (and her husband) nor can I truly say what I would of would not do. I

It be interesting to hear from Christians who believes artificial conceptions (insemination, and embryo transfer to uterus) should be morally acceptable.

@Puzlnut - Are individuals being judged, or is the artificial conception process being judged (as being a moral issue)?
I can see where an individual would be judged by others if he or she was publically promoting artificial conception. This judgement may be rooted in the traditional idea that a wife and husband's intimate experiences (with conception, fertility, treatment, etc) are a private family manner.

Since the topic of "choice" was brought up an individual's choice is based on a set of moral standards. There is an individual's set of moral standards, and then there is society's set of moral standards. Society tends to set the bar low with moral standards.

To be clear, all of these dear ladies were married to men and their deepest desire was to experience the joys of pregnancy, childbirth and the raising of their child/children. How is that wrong?

There is nothing more beautiful than a husband and a wife committed to creating and to caring for a child of their own. And there is nothing wrong for a female to want to create her own family with her husband. You bring up a very important point when you said "desire."

Desire can turn to obsession and emotions will take over reasoning. Do desires not lead us astray to the unnatural?
With God all things are possible, and trusting in Him can allow individuals to "avoid emotional and physical turbulences," right?

I know many women who tried to conceive and were unable to do so. Some did go the IUI route and then when that was unsuccessful they advanced to IVF. Some truths became very clear in conversations I had with them. First, none of them took these steps lightly. They went through emotional and physical turbulence undergoing these procedures.

How many women have a child, and then continue to want more children but can not conceive? The chosen emotional and physical turbulence is also experienced by the whole family, including the first child.
 

Starlight

Woodpecker
Woman
I know many women who tried to conceive and were unable to do so. Some did go the IUI route and then when that was unsuccessful they advanced to IVF. Some truths became very clear in conversations I had with them. First, none of them took these steps lightly. They went through emotional and physical turbulence undergoing these procedures. Second, ONLY God can cause conception, regardless of the method used to become pregnant. Science and medicine can TRY but only God will allow/cause conception. Third, it is easy for me to say "oh, I would never do _________ " or to judge someone else for their choices but until I am in that situation I don't really know what it is like for the woman (and her husband) nor can I truly say what I would of would not do. I

To be clear, all of these dear ladies were married to men and their deepest desire was to experience the joys of pregnancy, childbirth and the raising of their child/children. How is that wrong?
This is a very sensitive and complex topic.

First off, no one can say they know the will of God. Just because it’s something that a person wants to happen, doesn’t mean it’s God’s will. The devil works the same way, gratifying our personal desires. Sometimes people use this as a rationalization of their behaviors: “Well, if God didn’t want it to happen, He would’ve stopped me or it from happening.” That’s not how it works. (Murders happen everyday, doesn’t mean it’s God’s will.) We have Freewill. We live in a world of evil. It’s up to us, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, to follow Christ. If it’s something that brings us closer to God, then it’s more likely to be God’s will, IMO.

I was listening to a Christian radio station the other day and there was a snippet by a Priest about COVID. He said (and I’m loosely paraphrasing because I only heard a little bit) that as Christians, we aren’t “anti-medicine” but understand that it is a tool that God allowed us to have and that it is our discretion on how to use it. Medicine, science, tech, etc., are all man made innovations that can be used for both good and evil. God didn’t come down from Heaven and give His creation “Science.”

I definitely don’t want to purity spiral about what defines “too much” medical care. A fundamentalist might say that we shouldn’t receive any kind of medical care because it removes the opportunity for God’s miracles and will to happen. I can certainly understand that line of thinking. I have witnessed medical miracles and absolutely believe that God may intervene we He chooses.

But when it comes to IVF, there are definite immortalities that happen that the people involved are aware of. In my opinion, there really isn’t much debate about that.

As to other fertility therapies, I don’t know. I would say that when it comes to fertility (as opposed to other “medical” interventions (btw- I am soooo against pregnancy being labeled a “medical condition”... ugh)) we should look to Scripture. Many barren women were blessed by God with children. They became our Grandmothers of Christianity.

I would question people seeking fertility treatments whether their desire for children is based in God or in themselves? “Want” is still a form of greed and envy. Do they want children to fulfill God’s duty as a woman (be fruitful and multiply) or is it to satisfy their own biological impulse to reproduce? There is a difference.

There is a couple at my church who tried to have children for decades and they are amazing people. They are devout Christians and live God’s Grace in their daily lives. If anyone deserved to have children, it was them. They ended up adopting (saving, really) a sister and brother from an abusive and drug addicted mother. Those children are now baptized in the name of the Trinity. I thank God that those children, who otherwise would have been lost, we’re brought to God. The adoptive parents are blessed and the children are blessed.

The longing for children and being denied them isn’t any different from any other suffering. As Christians, we’re called to serve God first and ourselves last.
 
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Mrs.DanielH

Robin
Woman
Second, ONLY God can cause conception, regardless of the method used to become pregnant. Science and medicine can TRY but only God will allow/cause conception.
You're wrong. IVF is taking a needle, sucking up a sperm with that needle and injecting it into an egg. This meets the definition of conception. So a scientist is playing the role of God in creating a new human.
Edited to add: Only God can give the new human a soul. But ivf is clearly humans interfering as if we knew better than God and abusing the scientific knowledge we have.
 
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Kitty Tantrum

Woodpecker
Woman
I had once considered the possibility of being a surrogate, because pregnancy and childbirth were very easy for me. So I looked quite a bit into the details of that, focusing on the most-preferred method which is basically IVF, typically involving transfer/implantation of multiple embryos from the prospective parents (or donors they have sourced).

I learned that the gift of life gleaned from this process generally necessarily comes at the cost of an equal-or-greater life sacrifice. Multiples are routinely implanted because often only one, if any, will "stick." In the case of multiples sticking and proving viable, many are faced with the "necessity" for "pregnancy reduction" (in other words, termination of all implanted embryos above a certain number). Typically, from what I understand, many embryos are created that never end up used. Batch process is most efficient due to harvesting methods and affords best chance of at least one success for the trouble/expense. These "leftover" embryos would either be destroyed, or in some cases sold, used for research... and who even knows what else. Some people cite that they can be "saved" - but I'm not sure how long, and I suspect for most people that's just pushing back the clock rather than changing the ultimate outcome.

I can't reconcile that with my own conscience, I know that.
 

messaggera

Woodpecker
Woman
You're wrong. IVF is taking a needle, sucking up a sperm with that needle and injecting it into an egg. This meets the definition of conception. So a scientist is playing the role of God in creating a new human.
Edited to add: Only God can give the new human a soul. But ivf is clearly humans interfering as if we knew better than God and abusing the scientific knowledge we have.

To actually go through the process logically and recognizing what IVF is as a procedure, it becomes concerning as it pertains to setting humanity's moral standards.

IVF is a socially accepted process - there is no wonder why abortion is a heavy topic to politicize. Recognizing embryos as human life in the abortion discussion would result in medical procedures used in fertility treatments to be under the microscope of scrutiny.

Multiples are routinely implanted because often only one, if any, will "stick." In the case of multiples sticking and proving viable, many are faced with the "necessity" for "pregnancy reduction" (in other words, termination of all implanted embryos above a certain number). Typically, from what I understand, many embryos are created that never end up used. Batch process is most efficient due to harvesting methods and affords best chance of at least one success for the trouble/expense. These "leftover" embryos would either be destroyed, or in some cases sold, used for research... and who even knows what else.

IT can only get worse when FAcebook and Apple are involved in the industry:

Fertility clinics are being taken over by for-profit companies selling false hope
[article link]

The fertility industry, set to reach $41 billion by 2026, is dangerously glossing over what science tells us these treatments can and can’t offer.
Nonetheless, companies like Facebook and Apple began offering egg freezing as a perk to their employees. This and a host of other factors — the increase in the average age of marriage and childbearing, technological advancements in egg freezing and the legalization of same sex marriage — have pricked the ears of venture capital funds and private equity firms eager to cash in.
 

Puzlnut

Chicken
Woman
You're wrong. IVF is taking a needle, sucking up a sperm with that needle and injecting it into an egg. This meets the definition of conception. So a scientist is playing the role of God in creating a new human.
Edited to add: Only God can give the new human a soul. But ivf is clearly humans interfering as if we knew better than God and abusing the scientific knowledge we have.
I hear what you are saying and respectfully disagree. You describe the IVF procedure correctly (I am a nurse), but to me IVF is an ATTEMPT to conceive ---- it is NOT a successful conception/pregnancy every time it is used. This is why I say God alone creates that life. You have described fertilization ( "sucking up a sperm with that needle and injecting it into an egg") which is different from actually "making" a baby.

I am new to this forum and have to say that the replies to my post have felt accusatory and hostile. To be clear, I myself am not one of the women I am referring to ---- but if I was, I'd feel attacked and judged by the responses. Now that I've written that I'm probably going to be flamed. So be it.

How do you think Jesus would feel about the woman who chose IVF as her path to motherhood? Again, I am not talking about lesbian, transexual, pedophiles etc. pursuing IVF. I'm speaking of Bible believing, faithful, monogamous women who desire (and felt led by God to pursue motherhood).
 
I started getting a lot of fb ads to sell my eggs or become a surrogate a few years ago. Surrogacy just weirds me out on a physical level even more than ivf. I can't imagine carrying a baby to term and then giving it up, or having someone else carry "my" baby. So wrong.

I knew a couple at my old church that got married and had a set of twins in their 50s. The kids are just kind of--off? The parents are nice people (although a little off too, lol) and a good fit for each other, but it just seems kind of counterproductive to have nannies and housekeepers to take care of your kids. I don't know. I feel the same way about daycare (which has its purpose but I saw a lot of shitty things when I worked in one and didn't want that for my potential offspring. I'd rather be around my baby all day than having a dumb micromanaging boss on me anyway lol).

Daycare is really bad for many children. This goes into many studies on the daycare generation:

This is also one of the many origins of modern day SJWs and other assorted modern freaks that city folk are forced to experience. And also the origin of so many mental disorders nowadays.

This article also goes extensively to many negative consequences of daycare:

These days they call Daycare "Childcare". Basically falsely making Daycare and Childcare by mothers themselves as being the same.

So when Government Officials talk about Childcare. They are actually talking about Daycare.
 
I don't agree with IVF or any artificial attempts to make babies (homosexuals/pedophiles are now working on creating embryos cooked in fake wombs) but you make a compelling argument. The women who can't have children seem to go absolutely nuts, screaming to their friends and family about it every day, getting more desperate as time passes. Then there are those who accept their fate with dignity, quiet, and silence.

It took years of prayer by Isaac and Rebekah before Jacob and Esau was born. So they either have to be patient in waiting on God or they have to accept that God has something else in mind for them.
 

messaggera

Woodpecker
Woman
I hear what you are saying and respectfully disagree. You describe the IVF procedure correctly (I am a nurse), but to me IVF is an ATTEMPT to conceive ---- it is NOT a successful conception/pregnancy every time it is used. This is why I say God alone creates that life. You have described fertilization ( "sucking up a sperm with that needle and injecting it into an egg") which is different from actually "making" a baby.

I am new to this forum and have to say that the replies to my post have felt accusatory and hostile. To be clear, I myself am not one of the women I am referring to ---- but if I was, I'd feel attacked and judged by the responses. Now that I've written that I'm probably going to be flamed. So be it. @Mrs.DanielH

@Puzlnut Sorry to hear you feel the replies to your posts are accusatory or hostile within this topic. You do have the option of reporting (or ignoring) individuals on the forum if you find his or her content deliberately harming to you.

To better understand could you provide your examples of the accusatory or hostile comments made or judgements on an individual within this forum; excluding the individual replies condoning the processes of artificial insemination or vitro fertilization as being a moral issue for a Christian?

One observation I found within this forum is the active female accounts are typically very articulate and assertive: often times replies are grounded in reasoning rather than emotion. One could view assertion as hostile I suppose, or a tone of matter of fact (high and mighty) is also often found to be offensive too coming from a female. Come to think about it, perhaps debating with the use of questions is considered patronizing.

And to be harshly honest would only an insecure individual reading content about this topic only be offended if she had doubt in her heart that the procedure is immoral in the eyes of Christian teachings? The information shared was medical, factual, and pertained to the discussion of moral standards.

How do you think Jesus would feel about the woman who chose IVF as her path to motherhood? Again, I am not talking about lesbian, transexual, pedophiles etc. pursuing IVF. I'm speaking of Bible believing, faithful, monogamous women who desire (and felt led by God to pursue motherhood).

After reading @Kitty Tantrum and @Mrs.DanielH posts about the procedures it reveals lives are lost.

Would Jesus not want children of God to protect the sanctuary of life without judging another individual's free will/decisions?
Choices that do not involve us are between God and the other individual. He would want us to have compassion to those who are in emotional turmoil. Would He not want us to speak out against moral issues that have humans playing god?


Up next with be CRISPR biotechnology and engineering the perfect man-made baby (opposed to God).
Biotechnology/CRISPR

Engineering the Perfect Baby​

Scientists are developing ways to edit the DNA of tomorrow’s children. Should they stop before it’s too late?
by Antonio Regalado March 5, 2015 [article link]
 

muhtea

Robin
Woman
but to me IVF is

the replies to my post have felt accusatory and hostile

I'd feel attacked and judged

Jesus would feel

who desire (and felt led by God


These are not arguments, but emotionalism. To quote the venerable Ben Shapiro (lol), facts don't care about your feelings. It's not harsh or an "attack", it's simply a fact. You're going to have to grow a skin if you want to discover the truth in life. If some truth is even objectively poorly delivered, it does you no good to dismiss it because you feel "attacked".

You missed everyone's points and repeated your emotional appeal. That's not how to have a rational discussion or learn anything. If you're here seeking some kind of approval for what is widely believed to be an immoral procedure (especially by Orthodox and Catholic Christians), you'll find yourself barking up the wrong tree.

What would Jesus do? He'd tell the truth, like He did with the woman at the well.
 
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