To add to this, I hadn't heard any of the arguments that Dr Bob had made before and thought they were interesting; but they ultimately rely on his presuppositions of the ultimate authority of the Bible and then predestination and Sola Scriptura. One thing that has happened with all of the Post-modernism and wokeness, is that people can directly see similarities between how these philosophies have drastically changed what was once considered "American" or "Western" and how what is considered "Christian" has drastically changed in many of these Protestant (and really, all) denominations.
Brother Augustine
- Thread starter Eusebius Erasmus
- Start date
To add to this, I hadn't heard any of the arguments that Dr Bob had made before and thought they were interesting; but they ultimately rely on his presuppositions of the ultimate authority of the Bible and then predestination and Sola Scriptura. One thing that has happened with all of the Post-modernism and wokeness, is that people can directly see similarities between how these philosophies have drastically changed what was once considered "American" or "Western" and how what is considered "Christian" has drastically changed in many of these Protestant (and really, all) denominations.
That doesn't match with what I'm seeing on the ground. I live in an east coast state that has a lot of people from cultural backgrounds that are typically associated with being Catholic (Italians, Irish, Latin Americans and such) and it's overwhelmingly more common to see people go from being raised Catholic to becoming a non-denominational Protestant going to some megachurch. Just as common if not more is to see Catholics leave organized religion all together. As for Orthodoxy, most people simply don't know what it is. If they were brought to an Orthodox church they would likely to think it was a Catholic church.Yeah, “priest” and “presbúteros” are completely unrelated…
priest - Wiktionary
en.m.wiktionary.org
The high tide of Protestantism really is over. The heterodox “half” (~80%) wil continue to drift into liberalism and atheism, and the orthodox “half” (~20%) will eventually convert to Orthodoxy or Catholicism. And some leftovers will remain in minor Calvinist or Charismatic sects. That is what is already happening and what will continue to happen this century.
Interestingly, what initially aided the rise of Protestantism, will now be its downfall: the availability of information. The discovery of the printing press made Protestant pamflets and translations of the Bible available to a larger public. Yet, they did not have most of the Church fathers (except some works of St Augustine) or other ancient Christian sources at their disposal. As a result, Protestantism became a Christianity-lite. The lack of ecclesiastical authority then ensured that this lite-version completely went rogue.
That has now all changed. In the past decades, many if not all apostolic and Church fathers and other sources of the Early Church have been translated from Latin and Greek into English and other languages. And now the internet has made these (translated) sources available to the entire world. As a consequence, literally everyone with an genuine open mind can now read these sources and learn about the traditions and context of all that the Church and/or Scripture teaches. And discover that this teaching has been pretty much consistent for nearly 2.000 years now.
So, I would really recommend Dr. Bob to delve into the following sources:
CHURCH FATHERS: Home
Featuring the Church Fathers, Catholic Encyclopedia, Summa Theologica and more.www.newadvent.org
It's true that there's been a decline or "downfall" of Protestantism in the US but this is not something unique to Protestantism but all Christianity. Catholicism in particular is in much of a free-fall as Protestantism is - I know I often will hear someone of Catholic background say something along the lines of "I was raised Catholic but -"? When I meet a practicing Catholic under the age of 40 it always sticks out in my mind because it's uncommon. I would be wary of celebrating the end of the "high-tide" Protestantism since the factors contributing to that end is undermining all of Christianity - the "(~80%) wil continue to drift into liberalism and atheism" is happening just as much if not more within Catholicism as it is in the Protestant denominations.
In the places outside of the US where you do see rising, fervent Christian faith it's going to be of the evangelical/charismatic variety. Brazil in particular is a hotspot for it. And note that Brazil is the most Catholic country in the world in pure numbers. There's a huge international conference there called The Send (https://www.foxnews.com/faith-values/christian-brazil-youth-movement-president-the-send) that's taken place with the main theme being preached to the attendees being about the importance of evangelizing. President Jair showed up and declared "I am one of you" even though as far as I know he still identifies as a Catholic He also had an evangelical minister give him a full-water baptism a few years back even though I'm sure as a Catholic he had already been baptized as an infant. . I don't know how sincere it is but I think he is performing these acts for the public because he realizes where the trend is going.
It's true that Orthodoxy and traditional Catholicism is on the rise on the dissident right online scene but this scene is miniscule compared to the larger picture. Most people not only do not care about having a "based" priest but wouldn't even know what you were talking about if you used that term. A lot of us people who are hang out in these sort of spaces have to regularly remind ourselves that most of the topics we read about here and discuss and the trends that we notice are not being noticed by the vast majority of people - most people are not "always online" like we are.
In the same vein, the wide availability of the writings of the early church fathers really isn't have any sort of effect on the way most people practice Christianity. Most people who are going to read anything on their faith is more likely to read something by C.S. Lewis, G.K. Chesterson (especially if they are Catholic), some megachurch pastor or Charles Spurgeon who seems to enjoying a revival among a lot of evangelicals. It's another example of always online people think that their personal interests line up with regular people.
Godward
Robin
@ Wutang: I agree with you that there is a rising, fervent faith of the evangelical/charismatic variety, but this faith is not “Christian” anymore than Arianism, Gnosticism or Pelagianism were. The vast majority of these Evangelical denominations are heavily influenced by Worldy theologies such as Word of Faith and Prosperity Gospel. And in my own country, which is religiously one generation “ahead” of what is happening in the America’s, most of these Pentecostal denominations are now also opening up to the BLM and LGBT agenda’s. They are therefore just one of the many instances of the 80% Liberal heresy that I mentioned.
Pentecostalism is the red giant of the star that is Christianity: it is larger and more fervent in a way, and thus more visible to the masses, but it is in its final phase just before becoming a supernova or a nebula. Its members are generally not former Atheists; most of them come from a traditional Christian background, as you also already mentioned. This is just their intermediate stage before completely falling for the World —because almost no-one falls immediately. Belief grows like a mustard seed, but so does Unbelief. In my country this process is already on its way; it will happen in the America’s within a generation as well.
Sadly, this poisoned chalice shall be drunk entirely before it will get any better. But if we look at it not quantitatively (the total number of people claiming to be “Christian”) but rather qualitatively, the picture materialises of a small but growing group or people who join the Church and grow in the Faith (whether that be traditional Catholicism or Russian Orthodoxy, or both). And this actually makes me hopeful. For if the masses are ever to repent from the Liberal heresy, we will need a new generation of Augustines, Ambroses, Chrystosoms, Jeromes etcetera (or at least people who are willing to learn from them). And these are not generated in Pentecostalism, but only in the Church and in the Faith.
Pentecostalism is the red giant of the star that is Christianity: it is larger and more fervent in a way, and thus more visible to the masses, but it is in its final phase just before becoming a supernova or a nebula. Its members are generally not former Atheists; most of them come from a traditional Christian background, as you also already mentioned. This is just their intermediate stage before completely falling for the World —because almost no-one falls immediately. Belief grows like a mustard seed, but so does Unbelief. In my country this process is already on its way; it will happen in the America’s within a generation as well.
Sadly, this poisoned chalice shall be drunk entirely before it will get any better. But if we look at it not quantitatively (the total number of people claiming to be “Christian”) but rather qualitatively, the picture materialises of a small but growing group or people who join the Church and grow in the Faith (whether that be traditional Catholicism or Russian Orthodoxy, or both). And this actually makes me hopeful. For if the masses are ever to repent from the Liberal heresy, we will need a new generation of Augustines, Ambroses, Chrystosoms, Jeromes etcetera (or at least people who are willing to learn from them). And these are not generated in Pentecostalism, but only in the Church and in the Faith.
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I don't get the feeling that the the drift towards liberalism and atheism is unique to Protestantism. It seems to be happening just as rapidly among Catholics, especially white Catholics. I have a friend who is pretty representative of this trend. He is Italian American - went to church as a kid and was baptized and confirmed but is agnostic. He still has sentimental regard for the church - I remember him keeping the saint card (not sure what the actual name for it is) and the golden cross necklace he was given at his confirmation around in his room but he doesn't have much belief at all and doesn't practice. He was thinking about having a Catholic wedding but ended up getting a secular one (with a gay friend who had signed up for one of those online ordination things) of his presiding over it because he didn't want to go through all the marriage counseling that has to take place before. The church he went to as a kid has since shut down and he was telling me he feels that within 50 years there isn't going to be any white Catholics left in the US. The liberalization/atheist trend is just as strong if not stronger in Catholicism as it is Protestantism.
And as for the 20% of Protestants that are "orthodox" (small o not big O) ie. the big brain types that like to study and read old church writings, those sort of Protestants if they were previously non-denominational/evangelical/charismatic usually end up going in a Reform direction. They aren't converting to Catholicism and typically aren't even aware of Orthodoxy. I simply don't really see that there's going to be a big trend of Protestants converting over to Catholicism or Orthodoxy - unless we are solely talking about the online red pill dissident right world.
And as for the 20% of Protestants that are "orthodox" (small o not big O) ie. the big brain types that like to study and read old church writings, those sort of Protestants if they were previously non-denominational/evangelical/charismatic usually end up going in a Reform direction. They aren't converting to Catholicism and typically aren't even aware of Orthodoxy. I simply don't really see that there's going to be a big trend of Protestants converting over to Catholicism or Orthodoxy - unless we are solely talking about the online red pill dissident right world.
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Godward
Robin
@ Wutang & Dissimilarty: Of course many Catholics are turning Liberal. Even the Pope is nowadays a Liberal heretic. Yet you won’t find such decadence and degeneracy in let’s say Uganda. It is a White Western thing. But my point is not so much those who are leaving the Faith in droves, but those who are discovering the Faith in small numbers.
The vast majority of Europeans and Americans have already left the Faith more than two centuries ago when they started worshipping false idols such as the People, the State, the Economy, the Culture and so forth. What we are now witnessing is just an outward confirmation of a long-established inward disbelief.
However: Church teaching does not change with the tide. And that is where (mainline) Protestantism falls short: it constantly adapts to the spirit of the age, which is coincidentally also reason for its wordly success (especially now Pentecostalism). For example, in Europe, America, South Africa etcetera innumerous Protestant congregations now adapt to the spirit of the age by allowing sodomites to “marry”. This has not happened yet in Catholicism and Orthodoxy. Something is still preventing that from happening.
And yes, perhaps it is only the redpilled Right that will find and keep the Faith. I pray that the masses will repent and convert, but I also don’t see many indications that this will happen: wide is the gate and broad is the road… And I would add: it is not even us to ponder on why mass repentance should happen. God chooses who are His Elect, and we can embrace His grace or reject Him. And if only the fringes of the modern world will accept Him, then that is still His will be done.
“There will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.” (Luke 5:7)
The vast majority of Europeans and Americans have already left the Faith more than two centuries ago when they started worshipping false idols such as the People, the State, the Economy, the Culture and so forth. What we are now witnessing is just an outward confirmation of a long-established inward disbelief.
However: Church teaching does not change with the tide. And that is where (mainline) Protestantism falls short: it constantly adapts to the spirit of the age, which is coincidentally also reason for its wordly success (especially now Pentecostalism). For example, in Europe, America, South Africa etcetera innumerous Protestant congregations now adapt to the spirit of the age by allowing sodomites to “marry”. This has not happened yet in Catholicism and Orthodoxy. Something is still preventing that from happening.
And yes, perhaps it is only the redpilled Right that will find and keep the Faith. I pray that the masses will repent and convert, but I also don’t see many indications that this will happen: wide is the gate and broad is the road… And I would add: it is not even us to ponder on why mass repentance should happen. God chooses who are His Elect, and we can embrace His grace or reject Him. And if only the fringes of the modern world will accept Him, then that is still His will be done.
“There will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.” (Luke 5:7)
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Listened to the debate and Michael's post-debate talk. I think most of Michael's frustration was more than justified. Dr. Bob did not stay on the topic and did not really engage Michael's points, just play typical fallacious word games. It was quite funny hearing him heavily citing Schaff, a guy who doesn't believe the same things as Dr. Bob to begin with, and coming in with canned speeches and a dishonest agenda.
Of course, on the most fundamental and essential questions - such as "where was the debate and outrage over the supposed transformation of the priesthood in the first 1500 years of the Church? And what Church Father spoke out against it?" - Dr. Bob answered with evasion and obfuscation because there simply is no explanation, unless you're going to go with the Pastor Jim vs. Emperor Constantine And His Goons fundy mythology, which only the absolutely most historically illiterate types will embrace.
Look, before I was Orthodox, I was deep into pentecostal-influenced evangelicalism for at least a decade. This form of Christianity can seem like it's thriving because you have all these gigachurches with huge congregations and practically their own in-house media empires, but it's mostly an illusion. For starters, most of the congregants joined these churches from other Christian traditions, usually some form of southern baptist church. This form of Christianity is largely trend-based and heavily reliant on co-opting secular musical styles and entertainment, even graphic design, to draw in crowds. The result is a flashy product that creates a dopamine high to draw you in, but won't help you cultivate a deep and substantive faith. I was a part of these churches for years and years and the spectacle only helped to distract from my interior spiritual destitution that their model completely brushes over. There is no incentive for discipleship or Christian growth, though they will give lip service to these things; the incentive is on an immediate return, like trying to some $900 sneakers to a streetwear enthusiast that will fall apart or be worthless in a few years.
I am not impressed by the growth of evangelicostalism in places like Brazil. They are just 15-20 years behind what's happened in the US, Australia, and Europe, and the outcome will be the same eventually. It is an attraction to superficial trends and novelty propelling it: back when I listened to contemporary worship music, every video on YouTube by Hillsong or Bethel would have dozens of comments from Brazilian or other Latin American kids drawn to it because they thought it sounded cool, being unfamiliar with bands like U2 or Bloc Party whose styles were being ripped off. My wife and her family come from a Brazilian evangelical background and always talk about how great their church was... 25-30 years ago, which of course is long gone.
These congregations produce one of two common outcomes: either you stay a true believer and end up basically a Christian version of a highly-feminized hippie, or you leave Christianity. I was involved for years at a seemingly conservative evangelicostal church, and most of the people I knew from my "house church" have either totally left Christianity or at least wholeheartedly embraced wokeness and the globohomo narrative. Almost none of them attend that church anymore. A smaller group will leave for other types of Christian traditions: initially Calvinism (the origin of the "Young, Restless, and Reformed" movement of Baptists embracing Calvinist literature and soteriology without Calvin's church structure and sacraments.) But nowadays, the YRR movement has largely run out of steam (in part due to the nearly cartoonish collapse of its former superstars like Mark Driscoll) and more are heading toward Roman Catholicism and Orthodoxy.
Evangelicostal gigachurches, megachurches, and mediumchurches are rapidly hurtling toward the cultural narrative and have no epistemic grounding as long as you can marshal Bible verses to support whatever position you're advocating. They rest on a theological foundation of sand, and it's bad news for the still many well-intentioned believers huddled within the bare walls of their shopping-mall-and-industrial-warehouse buildings. Many conservative evangelicals are freaking out over the state of things, and this creates for the Orthodox a prime opportunity to show them an alternative to the pervasive instability of the protestant tradition. That's why these debates, articles, videos, and so on from the so-called Orthosphere are important - there are many Christians out there whose entire belief is precarious in the wake of the ongoing evangelical collapse. These people have never been more open to hearing about the fullness of the Christian faith, and the firm patristic grounding of Orthodox Christian theology that is not blown about by the cultural winds. It very well might be the difference between salvation and abandoning God entirely.
In the grand scheme Orthodoxy is still small in the West, but there is good reason to believe that we may be seeing that change. My parish has a handful of new people, often quite enthusiastic, showing up every single week, eager to learn more about Orthodoxy.
Of course, on the most fundamental and essential questions - such as "where was the debate and outrage over the supposed transformation of the priesthood in the first 1500 years of the Church? And what Church Father spoke out against it?" - Dr. Bob answered with evasion and obfuscation because there simply is no explanation, unless you're going to go with the Pastor Jim vs. Emperor Constantine And His Goons fundy mythology, which only the absolutely most historically illiterate types will embrace.
Look, before I was Orthodox, I was deep into pentecostal-influenced evangelicalism for at least a decade. This form of Christianity can seem like it's thriving because you have all these gigachurches with huge congregations and practically their own in-house media empires, but it's mostly an illusion. For starters, most of the congregants joined these churches from other Christian traditions, usually some form of southern baptist church. This form of Christianity is largely trend-based and heavily reliant on co-opting secular musical styles and entertainment, even graphic design, to draw in crowds. The result is a flashy product that creates a dopamine high to draw you in, but won't help you cultivate a deep and substantive faith. I was a part of these churches for years and years and the spectacle only helped to distract from my interior spiritual destitution that their model completely brushes over. There is no incentive for discipleship or Christian growth, though they will give lip service to these things; the incentive is on an immediate return, like trying to some $900 sneakers to a streetwear enthusiast that will fall apart or be worthless in a few years.
I am not impressed by the growth of evangelicostalism in places like Brazil. They are just 15-20 years behind what's happened in the US, Australia, and Europe, and the outcome will be the same eventually. It is an attraction to superficial trends and novelty propelling it: back when I listened to contemporary worship music, every video on YouTube by Hillsong or Bethel would have dozens of comments from Brazilian or other Latin American kids drawn to it because they thought it sounded cool, being unfamiliar with bands like U2 or Bloc Party whose styles were being ripped off. My wife and her family come from a Brazilian evangelical background and always talk about how great their church was... 25-30 years ago, which of course is long gone.
These congregations produce one of two common outcomes: either you stay a true believer and end up basically a Christian version of a highly-feminized hippie, or you leave Christianity. I was involved for years at a seemingly conservative evangelicostal church, and most of the people I knew from my "house church" have either totally left Christianity or at least wholeheartedly embraced wokeness and the globohomo narrative. Almost none of them attend that church anymore. A smaller group will leave for other types of Christian traditions: initially Calvinism (the origin of the "Young, Restless, and Reformed" movement of Baptists embracing Calvinist literature and soteriology without Calvin's church structure and sacraments.) But nowadays, the YRR movement has largely run out of steam (in part due to the nearly cartoonish collapse of its former superstars like Mark Driscoll) and more are heading toward Roman Catholicism and Orthodoxy.
Evangelicostal gigachurches, megachurches, and mediumchurches are rapidly hurtling toward the cultural narrative and have no epistemic grounding as long as you can marshal Bible verses to support whatever position you're advocating. They rest on a theological foundation of sand, and it's bad news for the still many well-intentioned believers huddled within the bare walls of their shopping-mall-and-industrial-warehouse buildings. Many conservative evangelicals are freaking out over the state of things, and this creates for the Orthodox a prime opportunity to show them an alternative to the pervasive instability of the protestant tradition. That's why these debates, articles, videos, and so on from the so-called Orthosphere are important - there are many Christians out there whose entire belief is precarious in the wake of the ongoing evangelical collapse. These people have never been more open to hearing about the fullness of the Christian faith, and the firm patristic grounding of Orthodox Christian theology that is not blown about by the cultural winds. It very well might be the difference between salvation and abandoning God entirely.
In the grand scheme Orthodoxy is still small in the West, but there is good reason to believe that we may be seeing that change. My parish has a handful of new people, often quite enthusiastic, showing up every single week, eager to learn more about Orthodoxy.
For the record, I deeply wish the laity did not have to defend our faith publicly the way the debating corner of the Orthosphere has been doing. In Church history it was almost exclusively - if not actually exclusively - patriarchs, bishops, archbishops, and monks engaging in disputations with heretics and schismatics. If our modern clergy took up the banner and sword once more, I’m sure the whole thing would take on a very different character. But since I cannot even think of a modern cleric engaging in debate the way our faithful forefathers did, it is unfortunately left to laypeople to pick up the slack. There are clergy who at least address these topics and do an excellent job, like Fr. Josiah and Fr. Andrew Damick in their books on these topics, but the actual disputations with leading heretics are a missing part of our modern Church that bore great fruit in the past.
SlickyBoy
Hummingbird
I still think it's worse with protestants, generally. The Catholics may drift, but the church itself perseveres, for 2000 years and counting. One way to gauge it is how much grief they get from the Jews versus the protestants. Which group has more "Christian zionists?" Which one has gay flags flying inside and outside of their churches? Who's officiating gay weddings? Which ones have married gay clergy? I could go on...
The Catholic churches that do any of that are inevitably recognized as led by apostates, and inevitably see their properties turned into condos or gay discos. As disappointing as Pope Francis may be, he still pisses off the Christ haters, wherever they are.
If they're still getting flack, the Catholics are over the target. Not so for the Israel-loving evangelists.
Who is the protestant equivalent of E Michael Jones? That is a discussion I would like to hear, but so far the few he's talked to on YouTube are either disguised klansmen wannabes or conversos like Dr. Brown. Yes, the Catholic church definitely has their problems, but this isn't their first rodeo.
2)
have fallen asleep.
κοιμῶνται (koimōntai)
Verb - Present Indicative Middle or Passive - 3rd Person Plural
Strong's 2837: From keimai; to put to sleep, i.e. to slumber; figuratively, to decease.
Same verb in Greek is used many times in the NT, most times it does indicate death.
My own personal opinion here but, most Christians outside the Slavic countries, including many Orthodox, will soon start worshiping the Antichrist, or be martyred. Very few will make it to Russia, which will remain faithful to Christianity until the end.Yeah, “priest” and “presbúteros” are completely unrelated…
priest - Wiktionary
The high tide of Protestantism really is over. The heterodox “half” (~80%) wil continue to drift into liberalism and atheism, and the orthodox “half” (~20%) will eventually convert to Orthodoxy or Catholicism. And some leftovers will remain in minor Calvinist or Charismatic sects. That is what is already happening and what will continue to happen this century.
What a surprise.
The Russians think they will be the last Orthodox country left. The Georgians think Georgia will be the last one. The Romanians think Romania will be the last one. The Greeks think Greece will be the last one.
And all of them have "prophecies" to back it up!
Thanks
Jeff
Pigeon
Thank you Brother for getting in the arena and contending earnestly for the faith once for all delivered to the saints. I think a lot of us, have forgotten the fact that the Kingdom of God ideally consists of both a Patriarchy (Priesthood) and a Monarchy (Knighthood). The tendency of the Church, especially in America, is to turn all of us into priests. We have vilified the Monarchy, and as a result, neglected the Knighthood. The Priest wages war on earth from the high-ground of heaven. The Knight wages war in the blood, sweat, and dirt of the earth. After the battle, the only question that remains for the victorious knight, is one of charity and mercy.
And that, you can discuss with your priest.
Keep On, Keepin’ On Brother...
I think “The White Horse King” would be well-pleased to have you in His ranks...
I definitely would never argue that popularity has any sort of relationship with truth. I wasn't offering an opinion either way on what denomination contains the most truth. What I was instead challenging is the notion that there's a big movement towards Catholicism and Orthodoxy from Protestant circles - it just clashes so much what I see in the real world that I had to point it out. The truth is that as much as we may think modern worship music is cheesy and that smoke machines detract from worship - it has wide appeal among a lot of Christians and/or people who are exploring Christianity. It's yet another example of how the tastes of perpetually online people differ from the normies you run into in the real world.
I know a constant theme I've heard from a lot in the real world among the church going people I know is that they'll complain about how "organized church" worship feels dull and irrelevant to them - the exact opposite attitude you'll hear from a forum like this where people like the solemnness of the services. And remember these are people who typically have Catholic backgrounds or in the case of places like Brazil and the other South American Countries - have grown up in societies that were traditionally Catholic since the beginning. Tradition and longevity isn't something that impresses the typical modern person (who typically also isn't the type of person to post regularly on any forums - let alone a place like this) so telling them you have 2000 years of unchanged tradition isn't going to work well as a selling point. Talking to them about the "firm patristic grounding of Orthodox Christian theology" is most likely going to leave them trying to Google what the word "patristic" means, if they even care enough to open up their web browser to do so.
If a person gets burnt out of these churches they are most likely just going to end up stop being involved with the faith all together - not converting to Catholicism or Orthodoxy. Godward said the ratio would be 80% falling to liberalism or atheism/20% becoming Orthodox or Catholic but I honestly think without exaggeration think it's more like 98/2. Besides all the issues I mentioned above there's also the very low amounts of evangelization with Catholicism and the complete lack of it in Orthodoxy. Pretty much every Orthodox convert I've seen on the internet - and those are the only sorts of Orthodox converts I ever see since I've never seen one offline - were people who were seeking it on their own. Even on this forum there's been a lot of comments about how Orthodox churches can be unfriendly towards visitors and seeking assistance on how to navigate that. I don't see how that can be squared with the idea that there's going to be a big growth of Orthodoxy in the United States.
I know a constant theme I've heard from a lot in the real world among the church going people I know is that they'll complain about how "organized church" worship feels dull and irrelevant to them - the exact opposite attitude you'll hear from a forum like this where people like the solemnness of the services. And remember these are people who typically have Catholic backgrounds or in the case of places like Brazil and the other South American Countries - have grown up in societies that were traditionally Catholic since the beginning. Tradition and longevity isn't something that impresses the typical modern person (who typically also isn't the type of person to post regularly on any forums - let alone a place like this) so telling them you have 2000 years of unchanged tradition isn't going to work well as a selling point. Talking to them about the "firm patristic grounding of Orthodox Christian theology" is most likely going to leave them trying to Google what the word "patristic" means, if they even care enough to open up their web browser to do so.
If a person gets burnt out of these churches they are most likely just going to end up stop being involved with the faith all together - not converting to Catholicism or Orthodoxy. Godward said the ratio would be 80% falling to liberalism or atheism/20% becoming Orthodox or Catholic but I honestly think without exaggeration think it's more like 98/2. Besides all the issues I mentioned above there's also the very low amounts of evangelization with Catholicism and the complete lack of it in Orthodoxy. Pretty much every Orthodox convert I've seen on the internet - and those are the only sorts of Orthodox converts I ever see since I've never seen one offline - were people who were seeking it on their own. Even on this forum there's been a lot of comments about how Orthodox churches can be unfriendly towards visitors and seeking assistance on how to navigate that. I don't see how that can be squared with the idea that there's going to be a big growth of Orthodoxy in the United States.
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I'd respond by saying that this isn't the sort of person we're trying to reach here. Yes, there are a lot of these people, but they're one minor inconvenience away from leaving Christianity altogether and probably will, eventually. But there are a vast number people upset with the contemporary status quo in evangelicalism (and conservatives in mainline denominations), and I think that's where much of the growth will come from.
I don't think people who get interested on their own initiative "count" any less than those who converted because they saw a Become Orthoducks Plz flyer on the bulletin board at the supermarket, especially considered that I haven't seen anything comparable to converted-after-I-read-about-it-on-the-Internet phenomenon in protestantism. Yes, the Church can be disorganized and that's made evangelism difficult in the West but Orthodoxy has never been more accessible (or visible, for that matter) than before.
Keep in mind that the extremely online people you've described in this post often live away from major urban areas, which often makes things logistically more challenging if all you have is a 99% Serbian parish two hours away, plus those with a more "normal" situation are unlikely to post much about it compared to someone with logistical problems. Where I live, there are something like a dozen Orthodox parishes within a 45-minute drive from my house, and lots of inquirers showing up each month at my parish alone.
Yes I agree. The guy is creepin'
Do Not Be Deceived, Jordan Peterson Is Satanic And Is Pushing Darwinism And Genocide
by Shoebat on December 3, 2018 in Featured, General, Highlight
http://shoebat.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/jordan-peterson.jpg
Do Not Be Deceived, Jordan Peterson Is Satanic And Is Pushing Darwinism And Genocide - Walid Shoebat
By Theodore Shoebat Jordan Peterson has been praised as a prophet, a wiseman and as one of the biggest enemies of the Left. But when we uncover the veneer of his fame, what we find is an ideology and religion of Darwinism, heresy and eugenics. The fame around the intellectual Jordan Peterson...shoebat.com
FYI the author of this article, Shoebat (who happens to be right about Jordan Peterson here) is in the even more dangerous cult of "Christian" zionism.
The last debate showed that you are indeed unqualified to do live debates.
Better stick to prepared edited videos, like your "against heresies" series.
Edit: I hope you don't get this the wrong way, I'm trying to offer constructive criticism.
As with my Doolittle and Leeds debates, there has been a very polarized response to this one. I have laypeople telling me I utterly failed, and a priest telling me my behavior was appropriate given Dr. Bob’s blasphemy. So who knows? Only God!
If you put a mic in front of false teachers, they will utter blasphemies.
That's why I think live debates should be avoided by lay people in general. Fth Andrew makes a good point here.