Brother Augustine

MichaelWitcoff

Hummingbird
Orthodox
“I know the dispute started with JD and MW but what JD is doing associating himself with this type of bile (I mean this ugly hit piece where he's in the live chat, and supporting nasty comments from others in his circle) is beyond me. No good will come from it”

Technically it started when I pushed back on Ubi Petrus for attacking Father Josiah Trenham’s position on birth control. Jay took Ubi’s side and that’s when this all began.
 

Hermetic Seal

Pelican
Orthodox
Gold Member
What was that all about? What did Ubi say attacking Fr. Josiah? Is he somehow critical of his stance on birth control?

I watched his video on Humana’s Vitae and Ubi gave numerous patristic citations critical of contraception, so I’m not sure where he’d be in disagreement with Fr. Josiah.
 

MichaelWitcoff

Hummingbird
Orthodox
Fr. Josiah is the priest Ubi mentions (without saying his name) in the beginning, and Fr. Josiah always refers to natural family planning as “natural family banning.” Ubi made this comment on that video, accusing the Fathers of not using a justification he approved of to be against NFP. I wrote (either somewhere on that video or on Twitter) that I think what he said is really irresponsible to teach people.

That was the first time Jay got angry at me, though he kept the ranting private until my criticism of Bitcoin, and frankly before his attacks on me I was cool with absolutely everybody (to my knowledge, and with whom I interacted) in the “Orthosphere.” Once he got to work, some people who loved my work the day or week before (and/or invited me on their channels, sometimes more than once) decided I’m an evil grifter who teaches heretical dogmas. I’m exceedingly grateful for the people who have remained dispassionate and discerning about all this, and there are many of them (even if they aren’t as loud as some other types).

Nothing changed beyond Jay’s stirring up and enflaming peoples’ passions against me; I am the same person now as I was back when the ones currently dogpiling were fans a couple months ago. Compliments and insults are equally meaningless and we ought to disregard both; it’s a teaching I’ve heard from many Saints, and my life over the last two months has brought immediacy and experience to such sentiments.
 

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quilter

 
Banned
Orthodox
I’m exceedingly grateful for the people who have remained dispassionate and discerning about all this, and there are many of them (even if they aren’t as loud as some other types).
In my experience the orthosphere is made up of guys who 'paddle their own canoe', I mean almost by definition it's guys (mainly) who are pretty analytical and take their own view on things and are not the sort looking for groupthink guidance. Sure JD has respect from most, myself included, but that doesn't extend to him being beyond reproach, so regardless of the rights and wrongs of his dispute with you his being seen to condone what amounts to his gang 'jumping you outside the school gates' mob-handed is really distasteful
 

Yallbeparticular

Sparrow
Orthodox
In my experience the orthosphere is made up of guys who 'paddle their own canoe', I mean almost by definition it's guys (mainly) who are pretty analytical and take their own view on things and are not the sort looking for groupthink guidance. Sure JD has respect from most, myself included, but that doesn't extend to him being beyond reproach, so regardless of the rights and wrongs of his dispute with you his being seen to condone what amounts to his gang 'jumping you outside the school gates' mob-handed is really distasteful
I think Jay made a good decision to stop teaching theology in his shameful stream last night. I hope he actually follows through!
 

Caramasão

Woodpecker
Orthodox Inquirer
I think it should be clarified that Ubi Petrus video has nothing to do with attacking Father Josiah Trenham's position on birth control, the video deals with the history of Christian thought on contraception and abortion, its origins and how it connects with Humanae Vitae and the Catholic modern Roman and Orthodox positions.

Once again, the video is not an attack on Father Josiah Trenham.
 

MichaelWitcoff

Hummingbird
Orthodox
I think it should be clarified that Ubi Petrus video has nothing to do with attacking Father Josiah Trenham's position on birth control, the video deals with the history of Christian thought on contraception and abortion, its origins and how it connects with Humanae Vitae and the Catholic modern Roman and Orthodox positions.

Once again, the video is not an attack on Father Josiah Trenham.
Forgive me but this is not accurate. He’s the priest mentioned around 12:30 in the video, and whose view is referred to as “not remotely” correct. When I asked my own priest about this he confirmed that Father Josiah has the correct understanding, and I’ll take the word of two priests I respect over an anonymous layperson on the internet.
 

Roosh

Cardinal
Orthodox
I don't think people in the Orthosphere set out to become gurus or Internet personalities with their own contingent of minions, but something about the nature of platforms like YouTube, Twitter, Discord, etc. seems to cultivate or encourage these sorts of negative elements to emerge. Interestingly, I think Roosh, who is quite a bit more mellow than some of the Orthosphere hotheads, has almost entirely avoided this, probably because he uses his own platforms and website, which has led to a more cultivated environment with a higher standard of discussion; and because most of the community here was in place long before he became Orthodox. Internet forums, compared to the faster pace of Twitter, YouTube comments, Discord, etc. also foster more substantial and less impulsive discussion in general.
Drama, antagonism, aggression, and gossip are all choices, albeit very tempting choices, especially on the internet where you are hidden by a computer. If you don't want internet drama in your life, you can begin to make the right choices to not engage with argumentative people, even if you have popular social platforms or run your own platforms.
 

Caramasão

Woodpecker
Orthodox Inquirer
Forgive me but this is not accurate. He’s the priest mentioned around 12:30 in the video, and whose view is referred to as “not remotely” correct. When I asked my own priest about this he confirmed that Father Josiah has the correct understanding, and I’ll take the word of two priests I respect over an anonymous layperson on the internet.

They mentioned a "famous Orthodox clerik and author" being wrong about the Church having an official teaching on the matter, that was all, it was a 1 minute remark in a 1 hour video, the name of the clergyman was not even mentioned, so to say this was an attack is a bit of an exaggeration in my opinion.
 

Raskolnikov

Sparrow
Orthodox
Internet forums, compared to the faster pace of Twitter, YouTube comments, Discord, etc. also foster more substantial and less impulsive discussion in general.
it's the fast-pacedness and then also places like Dyercord basically don't have vetting. That's good for the weekly debates Jay does, and he has produced much of value, but the community has definitely suffered ever since it moved beyond the 4000 member mark, and many of the cool people migrated away and (from what I hear, I haven't been there for almost a year) it has gotten a little less well spirited than it used to be. That's just the nature of internet celebrity, you attract weirdos and communities age, die off or migrate away.

The crypto thing is a different issue, and it has has been rubbing me wrong for a while. Many people who are into crypto show extreme cultish behaviors and I have seen incredible nastiness from Orthobros who were into it. It's not totally foreign to me I used to trade for a bit but then I noticed that I kept crunching numbers all day and thinking about win margins and all kinds of unhealthy emotions crept up inside me. I don't really believe in the whole privatized currency thing (though I do believe in a fixed standard), but you would think that's something people could politely disagree about. It's weird because Jay is usually a very astute observer of such things, and I think if I was in the apologetics scene I would just keep my hands off of it. Again, I don't judge people for trying to save money or having a bit of a side hustle, but my gut says there is some sort of bizarre deception going on around crypto which even rational individuals fall victim to.
 

Hermetic Seal

Pelican
Orthodox
Gold Member
Good observations on the crypto stuff. I have basically no interest in the topic of cryptocurrency, but from my outsider's perspective I feel like based people can tend to treat crypto like some sort of ace up the sleeve for getting around the impending suffering as a result of the direct or indirect actions by the globalist regime. I suspect those who expect crypto to save them are going to end up quite disappointed.
 

MichaelWitcoff

Hummingbird
Orthodox
They mentioned a "famous Orthodox clerik and author" being wrong about the Church having an official teaching on the matter, that was all, it was a 1 minute remark in a 1 hour video, the name of the clergyman was not even mentioned, so to say this was an attack is a bit of an exaggeration in my opinion.
Well, they mentioned a famous Orthodox cleric in the English-speaking world who put out a pamphlet on this topic a few years beforehand. That description fits exactly one person, Father Josiah Trenham. If you disagree with his perspective that’s one thing, but I think that to suggest they didn’t attack his view can be demonstrated pretty easily from the fire to be inaccurate. The only reason I even mentioned this was to correct the timeframe of where a certain chain of events began, not to debate the ins and outs of Humanae Vitae and the Orthodox response to it.
 

Enigma

Hummingbird
Orthodox Inquirer
Gold Member
That was the first time Jay got angry at me, though he kept the ranting private until my criticism of Bitcoin, and frankly before his attacks on me I was cool with absolutely everybody (to my knowledge, and with whom I interacted) in the “Orthosphere.” Once he got to work, some people who loved my work the day or week before (and/or invited me on their channels, sometimes more than once) decided I’m an evil grifter who teaches heretical dogmas. I’m exceedingly grateful for the people who have remained dispassionate and discerning about all this, and there are many of them (even if they aren’t as loud as some other types).

Were you not removed as a Patristic Faith contributor over your own behavior?

Patristic Faith is run by clergy.

I don't think I've ever watched a "Crucible" video and find both sides of this distasteful, but you pretending that this is some kind of campaign by Jay and his social media followers against you over Bitcoin or your defense of Fr. Trenham is simply not true.

Hopefully everyone involved can eventually put egos aside and move past this.
 

MichaelWitcoff

Hummingbird
Orthodox
Were you not removed as a Patristic Faith contributor over your own behavior?

Patristic Faith is run by clergy.

I don't think I've ever watched a "Crucible" video and find both sides of this distasteful, but you pretending that this is some kind of campaign by Jay and his social media followers against you over Bitcoin or your defense of Fr. Trenham is simply not true.

Hopefully everyone involved can eventually put egos aside and move past this.
Do you have a shred of evidence for a single claim these people are making beyond “Jay Dyer said so?” If so, present it.
 

Enigma

Hummingbird
Orthodox Inquirer
Gold Member
Do you have a shred of evidence for a single claim these people are making beyond “Jay Dyer said so?” If so, present it.


You were a contributor to Patristic Faith. Now you're not.

The founder of Patristic Faith, Fr. Dcn. Ananias, is a very patient and charitable man. He is also the organizer of Montanica, which you were invited to twice.

This is all public knowledge.

If you'd like to tell us that you weren't removed -- or were removed for some other reason -- then you're welcome to.
 

MichaelWitcoff

Hummingbird
Orthodox
You were a contributor to Patristic Faith. Now you're not.
That’s correct. I’ll now repeat my question, which you dodged the first time: Yes or no, do you have a shred of evidence that I was “kicked off the platform,” “purchased my monastic title,” “was ordered to stop posting online by clergy” - or any of the other rumors I’m hearing about myself this week - beyond “Jay Dyer said so?” It’s a simple question with a one word answer.
 

Enigma

Hummingbird
Orthodox Inquirer
Gold Member
That’s correct. I’ll now repeat my question, which you dodged the first time: Yes or no, do you have a shred of evidence that I was “kicked off the platform,” “purchased my monastic title,” “was ordered to stop posting online by clergy” - or any of the other rumors I’m hearing about myself this week - beyond “Jay Dyer said so?” It’s a simple question with a one word answer.

You see, this is exactly why I brought up Patristic Faith. Because it's a fact that you're no longer a contributor, not a rumor.

I've twice given you the opportunity to present your side of the story, but you refuse. Instead, you accuse me of "dodging" questions and demand evidence for claims I never made or even alluded to.

So, now I'm going to assume you were removed from Patristic Faith, and then I'll spell out what that means. Either:

1. The clergy that run the site suddenly developed an irrational hatred of you, despite promoting your work for years.

2. The clergy are also part of the supposed Jay Dyer e-cult.

Or, more likely:

3. You refused correction from clergy on sufficiently serious issues and they felt the need to remove you.

It's really that simple. And that's why, I'm guessing, you won't answer the question. Because you'd either have to lie, or it would destroy your entire narrative.

Does that mean I think you're an "evil" person? No, and in fact I would prefer to not have to post this at all. As I said, I hope everyone can eventually be reconciled and move past this.

However, only one side of the story is being presented here: that you didn't do anything wrong and that a bunch of Youtubers and Discord members just decided to gang up on and betray you over cryptocurrency. It's simply dishonest. It's not just dishonest towards laymen on this board or social media, it's dishonest about the clergy who removed you from Patristic Faith.

Your attempts at misdirection and subterfuge when presented with basic evidence and questioning you don't like only further proves the point.

Again, you're welcome to present your side of the story about the Patristic Faith issue, but I'm not going to do the endless back and forth about he-said she-said or tweets or whatever.
 

MichaelWitcoff

Hummingbird
Orthodox
That was an awfully long way of admitting that you don’t have evidence. Nice conflation of “removed by clergy” with “no longer a contributor” though, I’m sure nobody will notice that you switched topics after failing to provide evidence for your initial claim.

If you, or any of the people gossiping about me, had reached out privately and asked me to clarify anything - literally anything about any of these topics - I’d have gladly spoken with you. My life is a pretty open book.

Instead of that, people with every opportunity to speak with me like a human being decided to make public videos full of absurd accusations, in the most malicious and self-serving possible way, and then you demand I explain myself to you? You are acting like a bunch of tollhouse demons shouting “I accuse! I accuse!” and then think I owe you my time and attention after treating me with as much wickedness as could possibly be mustered?

That’s not going to happen, because none of the accusers has acted in good faith or with a genuine effort to seek truth. The truth will come out, I’m sure of it. I don’t have to defend myself or give blood to the circling sharks. And when the truth does come out, however and whenever God sees fit to make it known, you and the rest of these people are going to be left with the memory of how you treated someone you claim is a brother in Christ. When that day comes, and the conviction hits, my inbox will be open for apologies.
 
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