Called Off My Wedding

General Mayhem said:
She wasn't big into social media. No slutty instagram photos. No beta orbiters feeding her likes. I knew she wasn't totally free from the influence of modern culture but I thought I got her far enough away and that was good enough.
Are you sure she wasn't big into social media because she didn't see the point? Or maybe because she just didn't have the confidence?

I used to think there were girls who genuinly didn't care about the social media crap and status but I'm not convinced anymore. I think if these girls felt they were hot enough, could take photos from different trips and had the confidence to upload a lot of half-nude junk, most of them would probably do it.

So it's more a question of them not feeling hot enough compared to other women on Instagram than them actually being conservative and having a dislike for social media. But obviously, as a man, you want to believe that you've found this special girl who doesn't care at all about validation and attention from other men.
 

General Mayhem

Kingfisher
No More Mr. Soy Boy said:
General Mayhem said:
She wasn't big into social media. No slutty instagram photos. No beta orbiters feeding her likes. I knew she wasn't totally free from the influence of modern culture but I thought I got her far enough away and that was good enough.
Are you sure she wasn't big into social media because she didn't see the point? Or maybe because she just didn't have the confidence?

I used to think there were girls who genuinly didn't care about the social media crap and status but I'm not convinced anymore. I think if these girls felt they were hot enough, could take photos from different trips and had the confidence to upload a lot of half-nude junk, most of them would probably do it.

So it's more a question of them not feeling hot enough compared to other women on Instagram than them actually being conservative and having a dislike for social media. But obviously, as a man, you want to believe that you've found this special girl who doesn't care at all about validation and attention from other men.
That's an interesting question in general, whether confidence correlates to half nude pics on instagram.

As far back as I have ever seen pictures of her she never posted anything like that. Most of her instagram has been pictures of me or us since we have been together. She has always dressed very modestly even the night I met her. She never really even liked wearing makeup minus a little eye makeup and I enjoyed that about her.

She has always slut shamed other girls pretty hard. That could be partially due to not feeling as hot as other girls. She sent me nudes and would walk around naked all the time. In the beginning she was the type who didn't like having sex with the light on until I brought her around to it.
 

Captain Gh

Ostrich
Gold Member
General Mayhem said:
Dr. Howard said:
Op, you made a ballsy move. I don't know if it was the right move but you had to make one either way once you opened the can of worms. Staying silent would have just kept running things downhill. You have also captured the pain of modern marriage and women. Women think its a partnership of equals, but its not. One leads and one follows, if the follower won't submit, then there are problems. A modern woman has a very hard time understanding that it is still an honor to be Mike Pence when Donald Trump is president or that Melania has it good being the first lady. No, instead they think a marriage should be two presidents.

If you are not yet married, and this discussion is brutal, sure you can just leave, but if you are married then you have to have the entire fight, over multiple battles. You can't just Vietnam it and pull out when everyone gets tired.

Either way, you made a move, which I can respect.
Captain GH and Dr. Howard are adding an important element to the discussion and I want to respond to that to fill in more of the picture.

I can't jump right to saying that this was 100% the right move. I probably won't know for a while. There's a voice in my head telling me this could be a mistake and maybe I could win the war if I kept at it.

But, at the same time I've been working on this relationship for almost 5 years. I agree that you have to train a mold a modern woman through trials and hard work because I did it to some extent. There were plenty of times I wanted to walk out but didn't. One of the things I valued most about the relationship is that we both seemed so intent on making it work.

We did get in several fights about her friends and she couldn't see why I didn't like them or thought they were bad influences. She used to come home from work in tears and bitch about how awful they were to work with constantly. No matter how I broke it down she insisted they were her friends.

Like Dr. Howard pointed out, if the follower won't submit, there are problems. In a lot of aspects my girl did submit, but obviously not entirely. She was happy to submit to things especially if she could see the benefits. I got her into intermittent fasting and she got skinnier, she got off birth control and her energy and mood improved, etc.

But, at a certain point the woman has to give up her ego-pleasing dreams to focus on kids, even if you are only having a few of them. I don't think only having 3 kids would have broke my heart. I never even said she could never work again, just tone it back while the kids are young. But, my girl wasn't ready to give up the satisfaction she got from work for anything. Neither could she see how she could gain that satisfaction through other means. Maybe I could have gotten her to see that but waiting to see if having a kid would change that is a huge gamble.

I think she understood that men and women aren't equal in a physical and emotional sense. At the same time she was unwilling to give up the part of her ego that was satisfied by work. Her ego in general got to be a problem. That's why she would say things like how she didn't need religion to tell her how to live her life, or that she hated the priest who was going to marry us and thought that discussions with him, or spiritual life in general were wastes of time. I know she tried to get with the program but in a way I think that broke her.

I talked to one of my close friends who got married by the same priest and he told me about a time his wife wanted to talk some issues out with him after their first child was born. That story just made me think about how it was the wife's openness to listen to something bigger than herself was what made that work.

At one point during these last few discussions with my girl I asked if she believed in anything bigger than herself and she told me she didn't. It's not that she doesn't believe in god but that she didn't care to consider it. That was pretty telling for me.

That's part of the issue with modernism in general. Nobody wants to stop and consider anything bigger than themselves because life is good. The paychecks come in, you can buy the toys you want, and have kids and a healthy family without ever considering the bigger picture. Another thing I hate is that even if the woman wants to try stepping away from work the corporate machine is setup to make them believe that if they take a break for a while to raise kids no one will ever hire them again.

From reading this... rest assured you made the right decision my man! You didn't bail at first sight... and actually had conversation with her... which didn't pan out the way you wanted... so then you called it off! 100% right call in my book
 

General Mayhem

Kingfisher
I just got a call from my friend. Apparently his wife reached out to my ex to say she was there for her if she wanted to talk and they had a long conversation.

My friend told me his wife came back into the house in tears and said my ex was a bitch. He said he didn't get all the details of the conversation except that they talked about some of the compromises and his wife said that she wasn't going to change. She also told the wife that the only people who come to religion are crack heads, which is a pretty sad thing to say to someone who made you the godmother to one of her children. These two girls used to be thick as thieves.
 

SilentOne

Woodpecker
Congratulations!!!

:clap:

You made a tough decision, but the right one. It's unfortunate that women today chooses careers over raising families. Women can't have two masters. Instead of following your lead, she chooses to follow her boss. A recipe for disaster.

It's sad, really. The mental state of a women around age 24 today, in her prime years, is to work hard like a man. Then 10 years later she will be saying she is ready to start a family near age 35. But by that time, what's the point. You're old, lack feminine qualities and near the wall.

Plus let's be real, a marriage in these times is nothing more than a retirement plan for these strong and independent women. They love to prey on foolish men who make critical decisions based on feelings.
 
You made the right call and dodged a major bullet.

General Mayhem said:
I think eventually the influence of work and friends overtook the baby fever. The good influence of my friend's wife was on the other side of the country. Things came to a head. She said she only wanted one or two kids but would compromise on 3, and wouldn't stay home with them beyond the 8 weeks of maternity leave the company gives. This was a big step back from the conversations we had before that of having 4-6 kids.

Part of the issue is that throughout the relationship my values have gotten much more conservative. Things I would have been ok with a few years ago aren't ok anymore. I think if you are going to be in a committed relationship as a woman you shouldn't be going out and drinking apart from your husband.

I think that kids need more than 8 weeks of the mother's care before getting kicked off to the sitter. More and more it just seems crazy to outsource the raising of your kids. But, her opinion was that it's better to have the extra cash she gets from working and that she wouldn't give up the satisfaction she gets from her job. People always say that a woman's attitude changes after kids but you can't bank on that to happen.
The moment she said that she would put job/career over family is the moment you should have dumped her.

If you want to do the sole provider/traditional relationship deal in the USA, you have to be completely ruthless in cutting off people who aren't 100% on-board with the lifestyle; both in words AND actions. As you noted, overwhelming external forces are trying to fuck-up your ideal relationship every day; to say USA culture and legal system is very anti-family would be a vast understatement. This isn't news. However, you MUST completely seal up cracks in the armor ASAP or you MUST dump the woman. Holes in the armor expand rapidly if left unattended. Sounds like you attempted some half measures to fix things but what you really needed to do was lay down the law hard at the first sign of trouble.

No happy hours.
No contact with bad influences.
Quit your job today and get ready for babies or I'm out.

Her actions clearly indicated eventually she had no interest in being a housewife. And while you can lay down the law and hope that corrects things, you can't fight the tide forever. Don't beat yourself up over it; just be ready to cut things off the moment the Red Line is crossed so you can invest your time into better candidates.

Furthermore, the 18-25 demographic in the USA is a very tricky one to deal when it comes to this stuff. LOTS of them around 22-24 (usually shortly after college) get a taste of career life and get fully engulfed into the Independent Woman culture BS. Trying to find a stable 20 year old chick down (and I mean REALLY down) for being completely dependent on a man in the USA is extremely difficult. EVERYTHING around them is telling them that the traditional lifestyle is wrong/stupid/boring/hard work/not fun/etc.

Hence why again, you have to plug up holes in the armor ASAP or dump the woman with extreme prejudice without hesitation once the Red Line has been crossed. Only super strong foundations can survive the constant onslaught of BS. Once they're broken, they're generally broken for good.

As a side note, you might want to also re-evaluate the whole idea of getting legally married in the USA since you can do the traditional sole provider thing without giving your woman un-necessary legal/financial leverage over you. Not so the case in other places with "common law" marriage rules. I would argue that your odds of success are significantly higher by NOT getting legally married.

Think about it like this:

1. You acknowledge overwhelming negative forces that you must contend with constantly.

2. So your plan to fight that is to give up the ONE piece of leverage you have over a woman:

2a. Signing a legal contract that entitles her to unfair amounts of resources the moment she decides to have her Eat Pray Fuck epiphany with virtually no upside on your end. In short, you're literally signing a binding contract that incentives her to BLOW UP your marriage and family.

3. Frankly, I think that's pretty stupid from a purely tactical standpoint when trying to maintain a relationship and family in Clown World USA 2019. But to each and their own I suppose. Do you have any understanding of how bad sole-providers get divorced raped? It's brutal.

That all said: There are plenty of women out there in the world down with a traditional relationship and there are better environments to have them in. But you must be very ruthless and tactical about how you go about it no matter the circumstances since the game never really ends; especially in litigious fucked up cultures such as the USA. Count yourself extremely lucky that she didn't compromise and "try-out" the traditional relationship deal with you ultimately.

Do you know what child support with 6 kids looks like? It ain't pretty.
 

wwtl

Kingfisher
General Mayhem said:
I just got a call from my friend. Apparently his wife reached out to my ex to say she was there for her if she wanted to talk and they had a long conversation.

My friend told me his wife came back into the house in tears and said my ex was a bitch. He said he didn't get all the details of the conversation except that they talked about some of the compromises and his wife said that she wasn't going to change. She also told the wife that the only people who come to religion are crack heads, which is a pretty sad thing to say to someone who made you the godmother to one of her children. These two girls used to be thick as thieves.
Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? - 2Cor 6:14

You made the right call.
 
The Black Knight said:
The moment she said that she would put job/career over family is the moment you should have dumped her.
The Black Knight said:
you have to be completely ruthless in cutting off people who aren't 100% on-board with the lifestyle;
This.

There will probably be many men here who will find a decent woman that looks like she could be a good wife on the outside, only to later find out that he lost her to her friends, family and modernism that wanted her to go the career path and have kids as she's about to turn 40. It's a common scenario these days for traditional men.

I think the lesson here is to accept early on, that you will simply not win that kind of war and move on as soon as she talked about career as something extremly important. Otherwise you risk wasting 5 years on a woman you're not compatible with.
 
Been in a similar situation before, though I'm nix to comment on my own domestic arrangement at the present moment, I will say that you saved yourself a world of pain and agony as well as being a victim of female vampirism. Male to female wealth transference is inevitable after a certain point on the relationship timeline. Unless she comes from money, then you just have to keep her stimulated for the remainder of her life (not a bad gig but not the ideal one either).

You watch the slow rot of corruption take hold inside the female psyche, like a dark seed, it plants itself, burrows itself deep, ever so deep. Then little roots begin to grow, tendrils sprout, as the biological clock ticks and the exposure to insufferable American misery society grows, so too does the corrupted organism. It's almost memetic, though I disregard most of Darwin's theories as false, this maladaptive trait festers and lingers, until bearing its presence for all to see like a swollen pustule in plain sight, then its too late. The assimilation is complete. She is no longer a fertile woman, and has abandoned her purpose for the machinations of the something she will never understand, and hopefully will not regret for eternity, though likely.

Only one solution:
Get the girl young & fertile,
buns ---> ovens
Raise them, love them, kick them because you love them, thats where it all begins!

Best of luck to you in your next relationship, I will pray that the fallout from this one doesn't affect you too harshly bro.
 

Going strong

Crow
Gold Member
General Mayhem said:
Something in her body was definitely changing. I was raw dogging her a week ago without birth control and I felt like she was trying resist me pulling out. We were fucking multiple times a day. Shit changed quick.
Wait, why were you pulling out? It's your legitimate fiancee, and on top of that, you wanted to keep her homebound and get her to ditch her job. Yet you were painstakingly avoiding to get her pregnant, and did so during 5 years. As others said, you had 5 years to get the hot fiancee pregnant, plus you had no problem with money, it seems. So, why the procrastination, with all due respect?

By pulling out, you sabotaged your plans as described above, and it can be that you did that because you weren't really ready to spend your life with her... Something held you off maybe, and in any case the soon-to-be wife probably and understandably thought so.

So lesson is, and it goes for all of us: if you want "6 children" with a hot 19-24 university-educated chick you're living with, just get her pregnant. The sooner the better. By "accident" or planning. If you don't, she'll choose a nice office job over maternity. Or another man will get her pregnant without over-thinking it.
 

General Mayhem

Kingfisher
wwtl said:
Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? - 2Cor 6:14

You made the right call.
I don't if you posted this before in another thread but before I pulled the trigger on this I did some searching on the forum and it resonated with me.

MusicForThePiano said:
Best of luck to you in your next relationship, I will pray that the fallout from this one doesn't affect you too harshly bro.
I appreciate that. Luckily I don't see this affecting me too harshly because I had my right of passage breakup when I was younger that I let destroy me, which eventually led me here.

I already went through the anger phase, it will be interesting to see how I come away from this but I only imagine it will be better.

Going strong said:
General Mayhem said:
Something in her body was definitely changing. I was raw dogging her a week ago without birth control and I felt like she was trying resist me pulling out. We were fucking multiple times a day. Shit changed quick.
Wait, why were you pulling out? It's your legitimate fiancee, and on top of that, you wanted to keep her homebound and get her to ditch her job. Yet you were painstakingly avoiding to get her pregnant, and did so during 5 years. As others said, you had 5 years to get the hot fiancee pregnant, plus you had no problem with money, it seems. So, why the procrastination, with all due respect?

By pulling out, you sabotaged your plans as described above, and it can be that you did that because you weren't really ready to spend your life with her... Something held you off maybe, and in any case the soon-to-be wife probably and understandably thought so.

So lesson is, and it goes for all of us: if you want "6 children" with a hot 19-24 university-educated chick you're living with, just get her pregnant. The sooner the better. By "accident" or planning. If you don't, she'll choose a nice office job over maternity. Or another man will get her pregnant without over-thinking it.
Over thinking it was part of the problem. Part of it was that I didn't really want kids until the last year or two of the relationship. I kept thinking I wanted to wait until there was just a little more money on the table, that kind of thing. Looking back there was no good reason for it. We could have easily supported kids at any point.

As other people have pointed out, the modern long term relationship concept where you date forever before getting on with it is a big reason this didn't work. I think a big takeaway from this is that if you want a more traditional arrangement you have to get married early and start knocking her up. Over the past couple years I've shed the last bits of modernism in myself but it was too late. At an earlier point I legitimately thought I everything would be fine if I drug the process out longer. Now I see the mistake in that.
 

DannyAlberta

Kingfisher
Gold Member
General Mayhem said:
I think any guy who wants any semblance of a traditional relationship has to fight hard against the negative influences from modern society and from a girls friends. However, you can't do that alone. You need friends with wives, kids, and strong marriages that are good influences to surround your wife.
When someone on this Forum actually figures out how you can do this and win (assuming it's even possible outside of a crazy isolationist cult), they will have hacked modern mating life. I'm not sure it's even possible.

Even Mormonism and Islam aren't much of a barrier anymore from the cultural degeneracy (Ilhan Omar's affairs anyone?).

Thanks for this Mayhem. It's likely going to be painful in the short term, but you seem to acknowledge that there were too many accumulating negative indicia for you to be happy long term. Trust your instincts. They seem quite good.
 
General Mayhem said:
The one thing I will say is that it reinforces the opinion that I already had that trying to have a traditional relationships puts you in a full on fight against the modern world. It's like a war where the enemy is all around you with their degenerate propaganda threatening to destroy what you are building. I don't say that to steer people away from relationships. I hate doomers. Just know what you are up against.

At some point I might revisit this and add some of the lessons but at this point I'm burnt out on it. For the first time in my life I've got nothing holding me anywhere. I am going to buy an enclosed trailer to put my shit in, hitch up to my truck and hit the road.
I mentioned this in this one thread about the Redpilling of women.

Guys who think that it's enough to have just kids and go along are deluded.

A woman in our times has to accept the entire gamut of our belief system, she can be more conservative than we are, but not less.

You likely did the right thing as you saw her getting enamored with the strong independent lifestyle. If she had surrounded herself with tradwives, then it would be something else. Also the change in her child-rearing view is very clearly influenced by those stronk independent wahmen and divorcees. In the past married or engaged women avoided divorced ones for a multitude of reasons. Now those women are praised beyond belief.

My assessment is that your wife-material woman has to accept the entire length of your views, be inoculated against mainstream programming - and best she should be more conservative. I was in a LTR with one girl once who was more conservative than me and it did not bother me one bit that she had a stronger view against abortion or that she was stricter on sluts than I was. The reverse however - that is certainly an issue.

As for women deriving value out of their jobs - even very smart women rarely do that really. They just saw one side of the argument. They haven't hung out with a bunch of non-working happy young moms who spend their days with a bit of cooking and then inviting other moms over for chats. But nowadays only certain strata afford that.
 

wwtl

Kingfisher
DannyAlberta said:
General Mayhem said:
I think any guy who wants any semblance of a traditional relationship has to fight hard against the negative influences from modern society and from a girls friends. However, you can't do that alone. You need friends with wives, kids, and strong marriages that are good influences to surround your wife.
When someone on this Forum actually figures out how you can do this and win (assuming it's even possible outside of a crazy isolationist cult), they will have hacked modern mating life. I'm not sure it's even possible.
I'll try. With God's help.
 

Robert High Hawk

Kingfisher
It's very sad to see the marriage rate in America Collapse in real time like this. I agree with some of the posters here that a very, very long courtship with no marriage is in many ways a bad indicator in itself.
 
wwtl said:
DannyAlberta said:
General Mayhem said:
I think any guy who wants any semblance of a traditional relationship has to fight hard against the negative influences from modern society and from a girls friends. However, you can't do that alone. You need friends with wives, kids, and strong marriages that are good influences to surround your wife.
When someone on this Forum actually figures out how you can do this and win (assuming it's even possible outside of a crazy isolationist cult), they will have hacked modern mating life. I'm not sure it's even possible.
I'll try. With God's help.
 

General Mayhem

Kingfisher
Simeon_Strangelight said:
General Mayhem said:
The one thing I will say is that it reinforces the opinion that I already had that trying to have a traditional relationships puts you in a full on fight against the modern world. It's like a war where the enemy is all around you with their degenerate propaganda threatening to destroy what you are building. I don't say that to steer people away from relationships. I hate doomers. Just know what you are up against.

At some point I might revisit this and add some of the lessons but at this point I'm burnt out on it. For the first time in my life I've got nothing holding me anywhere. I am going to buy an enclosed trailer to put my shit in, hitch up to my truck and hit the road.
I mentioned this in this one thread about the Redpilling of women.

Guys who think that it's enough to have just kids and go along are deluded.

A woman in our times has to accept the entire gamut of our belief system, she can be more conservative than we are, but not less.

You likely did the right thing as you saw her getting enamored with the strong independent lifestyle. If she had surrounded herself with tradwives, then it would be something else. Also the change in her child-rearing view is very clearly influenced by those stronk independent wahmen and divorcees. In the past married or engaged women avoided divorced ones for a multitude of reasons. Now those women are praised beyond belief.

My assessment is that your wife-material woman has to accept the entire length of your views, be inoculated against mainstream programming - and best she should be more conservative. I was in a LTR with one girl once who was more conservative than me and it did not bother me one bit that she had a stronger view against abortion or that she was stricter on sluts than I was. The reverse however - that is certainly an issue.

As for women deriving value out of their jobs - even very smart women rarely do that really. They just saw one side of the argument. They haven't hung out with a bunch of non-working happy young moms who spend their days with a bit of cooking and then inviting other moms over for chats. But nowadays only certain strata afford that.
Yeah and it's interesting to me how she turned out the way she did despite attending catholic school and spending a lot of time with her ultra catholic grandparents.

It was easy for me to see how that upbringing ingrained certain values in her, even if she refused to believe it. She's always shown a distain for sluts, women's empowerment, and abortion.

I also think she knows she's not a strong independent woman to an extent. She is going to be fucked trying to finish this house with her dad and has said that. At some point it's going to hit her hard when she has to mow the lawn and there's nobody around to fix things.

On the other hand, there's all the bad influences she had growing up. I think in a lot of ways her relationship with her older sister fucked her up in a lot of ways. The whole family downplays it somewhat but from what I heard she sounded batshit crazy.

Of course the one time I tried questioning if her mother staying home more instead of working so much would have prevented that she exploded.

Her mom's side of the family is a train wreck, like the kind of people who should be living in the worst trailer park but the grandparents timed one dip in the stock market and saved that from happening.

Knowing what I know now I would screen for a girl who came from a more stable family and I would do that early on. My girl had a good relationship with her dad, but the rest was fucked beyond belief, especially her mom's side.

I don't know if I mentioned it in the OP but she was in daily contact with my friend's wife who stays at home full time at two kids. My ex did mention towards the end that she thought she would go crazy doing that, didn't want that life, just railed against it pretty hard.

Of course, one good influence that lives across the country can only do so much good. There needs to be enough other females so the girl can understand that is the cool thing to do.
 

wwtl

Kingfisher
Simeon_Strangelight said:
wwtl said:
DannyAlberta said:
General Mayhem said:
I think any guy who wants any semblance of a traditional relationship has to fight hard against the negative influences from modern society and from a girls friends. However, you can't do that alone. You need friends with wives, kids, and strong marriages that are good influences to surround your wife.
When someone on this Forum actually figures out how you can do this and win (assuming it's even possible outside of a crazy isolationist cult), they will have hacked modern mating life. I'm not sure it's even possible.
I'll try. With God's help.
I see we had the same thing in mind when reading "crazy isolationist cult". But maybe these are the sane people and everyone around them is the crazy cult worshiping idols.

Nevertheless joining the Amish would be Easy Mode, while I chose Hard Mode: Embedded into a crazy eco-fascist society flooded with immigrants, with no resources and no suitable wife in sight, having all odds against me. After men have explored all parts of the world including the poles, climbed all mountains and sailed all seas, having a traditional family with lots of children seems to be the ultimate challenge for a white man in the 21st century.

Though I have to admit that I'm absolutely unable to bring that on myself. So I'm trusting this to the Lord, fully relinquishing control and waiting for Him to fulfill His plan. Sounds completely nuts and impossible, right? Yeah, that's why I'm rolling with it.
 
Top