www.historic-uk.com
A pious woman can be used by God, to lead a husband to Christ, but a godly environment does not make someone a Christian. It does provide a witness and an influence though.
A pious queen, St. Margaret, from Hungary to Scotland, a pagan nation then, married pagan King Malcolm, after becoming captivated by her. God used her to convert him, and they had 8 children. Her influence progressed Christendom, especially in the family realm.
St Margaret
Margaret was born in 1046 and was a member of an ancient English royal family. She was a direct descendant of King Alfred and was the granddaughter of King Edmund Ironside of England through his son Edward.
2 mins
Now this is more powerful than politics! We god-fearing women can never underestimate the influences we have for His kingdom!
Anyway, while you can be an instrument and an influence, it's ultimately going to be up to his heart and the Holy Spirit.
"The man who is rebelling against God is a man engaged in the act/process of self-harm. Spiritual self-harm, primarily (though this inevitably has its impact on the material as well) - and because the wife is (spiritually) a part of the man, she is also harmed by extension when he does this. In this way, a wife can NEVER be entirely detached from her husband's sin... in the same way that a man's rib (or any distinct system/part of the body) is not immune to cancers that form elsewhere in the body. She is a victim of his self-harm and self-destructive behaviors as much as he is.Is he simply not close to God/Christ? Or is he in active rebellion against?
Which is stronger? The woman's faith in God? Or her desire to preserve her marriage for the sake of retaining its various benefits?
In my first marriage, I was the recent convert to Christianity and my ex-husband was the "lifelong Christian" -- but he turned out to be very much in rebellion against God; something I lacked the knowledge/experience to recognize. Skipping over the bits I've already expounded elsewhere, the long and short of it is:
1. My efforts to lead/teach "by example" - by doubling down and working extra hard on "holding up my end of the bargain" in the marriage, by really enthusiastically participating in ALLLLL of the Church Things, hoping that he would be inspired or motivated to match my efforts, fell flat.
2. He capitalized on my desire to preserve the marriage, and my willingness to work hard and sacrifice for that goal - using the idea of "happily ever after" as a carrot to dangle in front of me... encouraging me to walk away from God with him rather than stay my own course and draw closer to God without him.
It's an important point of fact that I'm actually NOT an idiot. I score pretty high for intelligence, self-awareness, discernment, intuition, etc. Pit me against my ex-husband in any arena other than raw physical strength, and I have the overwhelming advantage (and even then, he is a bit round and asthmatic, soooo...). Given that he only rarely strayed into "physical intimidation" and never used physical violence or force... how did he get me to follow him down into Hell, when what I was TRYING to do was help bring him/us closer go God?
This is how I learned, in a very personal way, about the particular vulnerability that women have, as illustrated by the story of Eve and the Serpent in the Garden of Eden. Men on this forum have described this principle for years as women being susceptible to "falling into a man's frame." The popular assumption is that this is because the man has greater strength of mind - but my experience demonstrates a different principle. As far as I can see, this vulnerability is innate to femininity. I am no theologian, but I loosely hypothesize that this has to do with Woman being created from Man. That Eve was created from Adam's rib offers an explanation for this which I haven't quite figured out how to articulate succinctly... but there is no amount of mental exercise a woman can do to eliminate this vulnerability. I'll try to put it briefly anyway, and quite possibly a lot of you already have a better understanding of it than I do - to fill in some blanks or issue minor corrections:
Woman is a subset of Man - taken and assembled from Man's weaknesses and vulnerabilities into a physically distinct form. Man and woman are meant to be paired together as a Whole; "one flesh." This means a lot more than suddenly having godly permission/blessing to bump uglies.
He is supposed to guard her, protect her, care for her, provide for her, etc. - as though she is part of his body... because she is.
She is supposed to be subject to him, to obey him, follow him, etc. - as though she is part of his body... because she is.
This is a very long preamble to my point, which is this: if a husband is in the mode of actively rebelling against God, I do not believe there is anything his wife can do to set him to rights within the context of a happy, harmonious marriage.
The man who is rebelling against God is a man engaged in the act/process of self-harm. Spiritual self-harm, primarily (though this inevitably has its impact on the material as well) - and because the wife is (spiritually) a part of the man, she is also harmed by extension when he does this. In this way, a wife can NEVER be entirely detached from her husband's sin... in the same way that a man's rib (or any distinct system/part of the body) is not immune to cancers that form elsewhere in the body. She is a victim of his self-harm and self-destructive behaviors as much as he is.
What a woman CAN do under such circumstances where the harm is substantial, and placing the health of the marriage at risk, is to physically separate herself from her husband, in order to mitigate or avoid the material fallout/spillover of his spiritually rebellious choices. This does not necessarily have to lead to divorce, but if your husband actually forces you to choose between him and God - you choose God. You stand with God against your husband's choices. You do not stand with your husband's choices, against God.
I think my story is a pretty extreme example. But it is an example of a tragically common principle. And so well worth noting that when you're dealing with a man who is actually in open rebellion against God, as opposed to a man who is simply lost, fallen, stumbling, etc. in seeking God - you cannot expect such a man to be inspired by your good and godly example. He is not in the mode of receiving such inspiration.
There is danger inherent in a woman's thinking that she can "lead" a man (or inspire him, or whatever) without altering her position relative to him. I was the good, domestic, church-going, praying, sunday-school-teaching wife who faithfully submitted to and served my husband... and by golly, I was going to inspire him to be the good and godly man that I knew he had the potential to be... by continuing to be the good, domestic, church-going, praying, sunday-school-teaching wife who faithfully submitted to and served my husband... no matter what kind of horrible, unspeakable, degenerate things he wanted to do with his own time and self... or mine.
Wrong wrong WRONG.
(FWIW I always liked the idea of divorce not being an option. I strongly considered remaining married to but separated from my first husband on a permanent sort of basis, or until he decided to divorce me. I suspect this is what I would have done, IF he had been willing/able to continue providing for the basics of existence for me and the kids, so that I could continue to raise them and homeschool them as we had agreed upon prior to marriage. He'd have been free to rebel in whatever ways he pleased and still have his family pretty much on hold for him as long as he provided for us to stay the heck away from it. Instead he wanted to set it up so that the kids went to public school and I worked full time so that he could be employed sporadically and blow every paycheck on whatever he wanted. That does not work. Nope nope nope.)
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In contrast, my husband now has never put himself out there as being particularly religious (raised Southern Baptist), has never claimed to live up to any religious standard, and is resistant to "organized religion" - but is nevertheless basically striving in the right direction, as near as I can tell.
The key difference:
In my first marriage, my husband and I were opposed (though it took me longer than it should have to figure that out) because I genuinely wanted to be closer to God (with him), and he just wanted to be his own god, make his own rules, etc. Those are two totally different directions... and so all my piety was a threat; something to be stamped out.
In my marriage NOW, my husband and I both want to be closer to God. And I have noticed that he IS inspired by my example ("more religious than spiritual" lol), rather than threatened by it. We are on the same path, going in the same direction, striving for the same goal - and so when he sees me excitedly scampering along the trail in front of him, his impulse is to catch up so that we can round the next bend together... not to get in front of me and stop me and tell me to go back the other way.
At worst, he'll stubbornly insist that he's quite happy right where he is for now -- but if I want to run on ahead and see what's around the bend and tell him about it, he's happy to listen. And the neat thing about the journey closer to God is that it's not subject to all those silly rules of time and space. I don't have to "go backwards" in my spiritual journey to share what I've seen or learned with him - and his eventual "catching up" can happen in a blink.
So TL;DR is that I think it's possible - but entirely dependent on the man wanting to grow closer to Christ in the first place.
If the man is militating against God and Christianity, then she would be ill advised to try to lead him to Christ (he won't allow himself to be led by God, but will allow himself to be led by a woman? Roughly zero percent likely), and much better advised to leave him to Christ.
The institution is never greater than Who creates that institution.Is he simply not close to God/Christ? Or is he in active rebellion against?
Which is stronger? The woman's faith in God? Or her desire to preserve her marriage for the sake of retaining its various benefits?
In my first marriage, I was the recent convert to Christianity and my ex-husband was the "lifelong Christian" -- but he turned out to be very much in rebellion against God; something I lacked the knowledge/experience to recognize. Skipping over the bits I've already expounded elsewhere, the long and short of it is:
1. My efforts to lead/teach "by example" - by doubling down and working extra hard on "holding up my end of the bargain" in the marriage, by really enthusiastically participating in ALLLLL of the Church Things, hoping that he would be inspired or motivated to match my efforts, fell flat.
2. He capitalized on my desire to preserve the marriage, and my willingness to work hard and sacrifice for that goal - using the idea of "happily ever after" as a carrot to dangle in front of me... encouraging me to walk away from God with him rather than stay my own course and draw closer to God without him.
It's an important point of fact that I'm actually NOT an idiot. I score pretty high for intelligence, self-awareness, discernment, intuition, etc. Pit me against my ex-husband in any arena other than raw physical strength, and I have the overwhelming advantage (and even then, he is a bit round and asthmatic, soooo...). Given that he only rarely strayed into "physical intimidation" and never used physical violence or force... how did he get me to follow him down into Hell, when what I was TRYING to do was help bring him/us closer go God?
This is how I learned, in a very personal way, about the particular vulnerability that women have, as illustrated by the story of Eve and the Serpent in the Garden of Eden. Men on this forum have described this principle for years as women being susceptible to "falling into a man's frame." The popular assumption is that this is because the man has greater strength of mind - but my experience demonstrates a different principle. As far as I can see, this vulnerability is innate to femininity. I am no theologian, but I loosely hypothesize that this has to do with Woman being created from Man. That Eve was created from Adam's rib offers an explanation for this which I haven't quite figured out how to articulate succinctly... but there is no amount of mental exercise a woman can do to eliminate this vulnerability. I'll try to put it briefly anyway, and quite possibly a lot of you already have a better understanding of it than I do - to fill in some blanks or issue minor corrections:
Woman is a subset of Man - taken and assembled from Man's weaknesses and vulnerabilities into a physically distinct form. Man and woman are meant to be paired together as a Whole; "one flesh." This means a lot more than suddenly having godly permission/blessing to bump uglies.
He is supposed to guard her, protect her, care for her, provide for her, etc. - as though she is part of his body... because she is.
She is supposed to be subject to him, to obey him, follow him, etc. - as though she is part of his body... because she is.
This is a very long preamble to my point, which is this: if a husband is in the mode of actively rebelling against God, I do not believe there is anything his wife can do to set him to rights within the context of a happy, harmonious marriage.
The man who is rebelling against God is a man engaged in the act/process of self-harm. Spiritual self-harm, primarily (though this inevitably has its impact on the material as well) - and because the wife is (spiritually) a part of the man, she is also harmed by extension when he does this. In this way, a wife can NEVER be entirely detached from her husband's sin... in the same way that a man's rib (or any distinct system/part of the body) is not immune to cancers that form elsewhere in the body. She is a victim of his self-harm and self-destructive behaviors as much as he is.
What a woman CAN do under such circumstances where the harm is substantial, and placing the health of the marriage at risk, is to physically separate herself from her husband, in order to mitigate or avoid the material fallout/spillover of his spiritually rebellious choices. This does not necessarily have to lead to divorce, but if your husband actually forces you to choose between him and God - you choose God. You stand with God against your husband's choices. You do not stand with your husband's choices, against God.
I think my story is a pretty extreme example. But it is an example of a tragically common principle. And so well worth noting that when you're dealing with a man who is actually in open rebellion against God, as opposed to a man who is simply lost, fallen, stumbling, etc. in seeking God - you cannot expect such a man to be inspired by your good and godly example. He is not in the mode of receiving such inspiration.
There is danger inherent in a woman's thinking that she can "lead" a man (or inspire him, or whatever) without altering her position relative to him. I was the good, domestic, church-going, praying, sunday-school-teaching wife who faithfully submitted to and served my husband... and by golly, I was going to inspire him to be the good and godly man that I knew he had the potential to be... by continuing to be the good, domestic, church-going, praying, sunday-school-teaching wife who faithfully submitted to and served my husband... no matter what kind of horrible, unspeakable, degenerate things he wanted to do with his own time and self... or mine.
Wrong wrong WRONG.
(FWIW I always liked the idea of divorce not being an option. I strongly considered remaining married to but separated from my first husband on a permanent sort of basis, or until he decided to divorce me. I suspect this is what I would have done, IF he had been willing/able to continue providing for the basics of existence for me and the kids, so that I could continue to raise them and homeschool them as we had agreed upon prior to marriage. He'd have been free to rebel in whatever ways he pleased and still have his family pretty much on hold for him as long as he provided for us to stay the heck away from it. Instead he wanted to set it up so that the kids went to public school and I worked full time so that he could be employed sporadically and blow every paycheck on whatever he wanted. That does not work. Nope nope nope.)
-------------
In contrast, my husband now has never put himself out there as being particularly religious (raised Southern Baptist), has never claimed to live up to any religious standard, and is resistant to "organized religion" - but is nevertheless basically striving in the right direction, as near as I can tell.
The key difference:
In my first marriage, my husband and I were opposed (though it took me longer than it should have to figure that out) because I genuinely wanted to be closer to God (with him), and he just wanted to be his own god, make his own rules, etc. Those are two totally different directions... and so all my piety was a threat; something to be stamped out.
In my marriage NOW, my husband and I both want to be closer to God. And I have noticed that he IS inspired by my example ("more religious than spiritual" lol), rather than threatened by it. We are on the same path, going in the same direction, striving for the same goal - and so when he sees me excitedly scampering along the trail in front of him, his impulse is to catch up so that we can round the next bend together... not to get in front of me and stop me and tell me to go back the other way.
At worst, he'll stubbornly insist that he's quite happy right where he is for now -- but if I want to run on ahead and see what's around the bend and tell him about it, he's happy to listen. And the neat thing about the journey closer to God is that it's not subject to all those silly rules of time and space. I don't have to "go backwards" in my spiritual journey to share what I've seen or learned with him - and his eventual "catching up" can happen in a blink.
So TL;DR is that I think it's possible - but entirely dependent on the man wanting to grow closer to Christ in the first place.
If the man is militating against God and Christianity, then she would be ill advised to try to lead him to Christ (he won't allow himself to be led by God, but will allow himself to be led by a woman? Roughly zero percent likely), and much better advised to leave him to Christ.
biblicalviewondivorce.com
biblicalviewondivorce.com
Amen, Jessie. I was married to one man for 43 years before he passed away. I prayed and used this verse at my mother's urging. I witnessed God create a new person after 24 years of marriage. My husband was called to ministry and began to teach and preach. It is a wise woman who heeds the Word of God and intently looks into the scripture for guidance in all things.
