Can anyone think of a magic key that would solve the Orthodox-Catholic split?

Godward

Robin
The Church may not experience a dialectic process but men certainly do. The idea that schisms are misunderstandings rooted in temporal politics seems interesting but I don't know much about it.

Saving face or just finding a compromise for the sake of unity doesn't sound all that holy, though. I don't think God needs us to do something for his plan to work, although that doesn't give us a pass on choices we make while doing our own work that is subject to our free will.

I suppose we're not forbidden to look for a "magic key", but unity of the Church doesn't seem to be a task we're specifically given to maintain since it will remain intact whether we want it to or not.

Definitely an interesting topic.
Well, neither side of the isle will ever (explicitly) admit to having been heretical/heterodox with regard to the Filioque, or any other topic for that matter. So, in that sense, it is perhaps not so much about saving one's face but rather about keeping one's dignity (as an orthodox, catholic Christian). Be as it may, I expect it is more logical for the Catholic church to revert to the original Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed than for the Orthodox church to adopt the adaptation. Whenever the Greek language is being used, the Catholic church already uses the original one, by the way. So, I don't think that matter should still be a stumbling block, unlike the question who has dominion over ecclesiastical affairs (thus the Papal Supremacy doctrine).
 

iop890

Peacock
Gold Member
You just confirmed your superficial mindset. Sure, Catholic priests don’t violently plunge babies in baptistries, nor belong to Hells Angels biker gangs, nor have wives, following Christ's doctrine. If you think virility is about showing off, you haven't read fathers properly.

The eternal Sede chicken strikes again.

You must have recognized that post as a joke, I refuse to believe you didn't. This is why people call you dishonest and don't bother engaging with you. Notice that nobody else gets dismissed for being disingenuous the way you do? Posters that dismiss you this way will have long debates with other Catholics or protestants even when they're somewhat hostile to Orthodoxy.
 

Aboulia

Woodpecker
Orthodox
I have never been convinced that the Schism was a theological matter at heart. And given the incessant creativity of theologians, for example the Filioque thing is something that could be overcome, at least if there is truly a will to reunification. It can be reinterpreted in an Ecumenical council, for example, or it can be declared a "Mystery", like the late medieval Church did with regard to Predestination, etcetera. There are many solutions imaginable without anyone losing face. However, if I am correct in asserting that it is a political matter, then a magic key is much harder to find, because it would mean that the Modernists in the Vatican should give up their political power base, which they will never ever do willingly. The doctrine of Papal Supremacy proved very useful during the Reformation and Modernism, when heresy was spreading via the lower ranks. But now heresy is spreading via the higher ranks including the Papacy itself, the doctrine is extremely dangerous to Tradition, as we are now seeing again with the persecution of the Tridentine Mass. So, not only to potentially overcome the Schism, but also for the sake of Tradition is it imperative that this doctrine is revisited and reinstituted to something of a medieval Papal Primacy.

It is a theological issue, which morphed into to include a political one, which is why theology is important in the first place. Created grace is why the church of Rome accumulated power to itself. The church is not about worldly power, it is to declare where truth is. Israel in the Old Testament was to rely solely on God, and not in their institutions/worldly alliances.

Dr Johnson talks about created grace in an easy to understand manner in the first 10 minutes of the podcast, then proceeds to talk about how anyone should look at the Church hierarchy, and bishops in general, which may be very helpful for those who have bishops who are going along with the system.

 

KantPost

Sparrow
The historical events you mention in your last sentence are all important, but one very important one is missing: the massacre of the Latins. Most people with any awareness of what led up to the formal schism are very aware of the Fourth Crusade, but for whatever reason few know about the Orthodox massacre of the Catholic population of Constantinople in 1182, something that the Catholics who sacked Constantinople in 1204 still very much remembered.
Yes it's strange how no Orthodox seem to discuss this and how it significantly alters their anti-Catholic narrative. For example in The Third Rome Dr Johnson repeatedly refers to the Fourth Crusade as an example of the historical Catholic belligerence against the Orthodox churches. Yet he conveniently leaves out this key part of the story, which of course changes the meaning entirely.

With the new forum changes, and Witcoff's outrageous attack against the Catholic Church during his interview with Roosh (he stated he believes the pope will become the Antichrist after the Greek Orthodox join the Catholic Church), it seems Catholics are not welcome here any longer.
 

bucky

Ostrich
Yes it's strange how no Orthodox seem to discuss this and how it significantly alters their anti-Catholic narrative. For example in The Third Rome Dr Johnson repeatedly refers to the Fourth Crusade as an example of the historical Catholic belligerence against the Orthodox churches. Yet he conveniently leaves out this key part of the story, which of course changes the meaning entirely.

With the new forum changes, and Witcoff's outrageous attack against the Catholic Church during his interview with Roosh (he stated he believes the pope will become the Antichrist after the Greek Orthodox join the Catholic Church), it seems Catholics are not welcome here any longer.
I'm not commenting on the general conflict between the Orthodox and Catholics on RVF or in a broader sense. As far as RVF, I understand why Roosh made the forum officially Orthodox and support his decision. He's devoutly Orthodox and it makes sense from his point of view.

Still, yes, it's very unfortunate that the Massacre of the Latins is basically forgotten history. Precise numbers are unknown, but the Orthodox massacred tens of thousands of Catholics, including women and children, and sold thousands of survivors into slavery to the Muslims, yet the sack of Constantinople a few decades later is almost always presented as something that happened spontaneously in a bubble. It's a bit like how "Native Americans" are always presented as entirely innocent noble savages when US history is taught, even though just basic familiarity with human nature should tell you that's highly unlikely.
 

DanielH

Ostrich
Orthodox
This is funny because from what I see in general with the online Orthodox, the outward appearance is particularly important. In a way many of you are no different that those attracted to Karl Marx because of his beard.
I'm surprised several people were unable to see that comment by @MichaelWitcoff as a lighthearted well intentioned joke meant to defuse the situation.

Outward appearance is not the only thing we look for but in worship it is especially important. There is a difference in saying "Huh, that church has puppet costume, light show, guitar, and gymnast services. That's probably a sign that something is wrong there," vs. "Oh my gosh those beards are so cool and masculine I'm becoming Orthodox :love:."

We should not handwave away proper liturgical practices and appearances. Adab and Abihu were struck down for offering incense at the wrong place and time in the tabernacle after receiving detailed instructions (Lev 10:1-2) There's also extremely detailed instructions on how to design the Ark of the Covenant, the tabernacle, the temple, priestly vestments, and yes even how to cut one's hair. Orthodox believe that we are the direct continuation of Old Testament Temple worship, that we are Israel - not a new Israel. I say this only so you understand where we come from.

To your other point yes I'm surprised I never heard of that horrible atrocity and I encourage everyone to read that wikipedia page that @bucky shared.
 

NickK

Kingfisher
Orthodox
When a foreign people "mostly peacefully" invade a capital city and for decades try to subvert an empire financially, politically and culturally, controlling all commerce and lobbying for privileges, the local population usually finds that a bit annoying.

So kudos to them for throwing out the invaders. Perhaps we should learn something from them.
 

KantPost

Sparrow
When a foreign people "mostly peacefully" invade a capital city and for decades try to subvert an empire financially, politically and culturally, controlling all commerce and lobbying for privileges, the local population usually finds that a bit annoying.

So kudos to them for throwing out the invaders. Perhaps we should learn something from them.
You consistently find inventive ways to make dumb comments. I've noticed that about you. You should learn from the other Orthobros how to make clever remarks. The forum will be so dull when you're all left by yourselves purity circle-jerking each other.
 

NickK

Kingfisher
Orthodox
You consistently find inventive ways to make dumb comments. I've noticed that about you. You should learn from the other Orthobros how to make clever remarks. The forum will be so dull when you're all left by yourselves purity circle-jerking each other.
We all have to improve in some ways.
I have to learn how to make clever remarks, you have to stop following a heretic.
 

Godward

Robin
Irrespective of the injustices done by both sides of the Schism (which indeed are manifold, and should be acknowledged, and learned from), as Christians we ought to be very careful not to render present such past injustices, as there is only ONE past injustice that we as Christians are called upon to render present. If not, we risk making the same mistake as too many Catholics and Orthodox (and not to forget Protestant) coreligionists did in the past: creating new mimetic rivalry, new scapegoats, new "sacrificial" murders etcetera. In other words: falling in the same Worldy trap as Unbelievers do -- a trap that was (and is!) already effectively dismantled by Christ on the Cross.

Oh, and to be clear: by "murders" I of course mean it in the sense of 1 John 3:15: “Whoever hates his brother is a murderer."

its-a-trap.jpeg
 
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Eusebius Erasmus

Pelican
Orthodox
I hate to say it, but can we put down our differences right now and defeat the antichrist?it's like arguing over the chemical makeup of water while on the boat of a sinking ship in a hurricane. Immaterial right now.
Christians from different traditions should coalesce around shared geopolitical goals. This was historically done as well (eg. Armenians and Catholic Crusaders).
 
I'm not commenting on the general conflict between the Orthodox and Catholics on RVF or in a broader sense. As far as RVF, I understand why Roosh made the forum officially Orthodox and support his decision. He's devoutly Orthodox and it makes sense from his point of view.

Still, yes, it's very unfortunate that the Massacre of the Latins is basically forgotten history. Precise numbers are unknown, but the Orthodox massacred tens of thousands of Catholics, including women and children, and sold thousands of survivors into slavery to the Muslims, yet the sack of Constantinople a few decades later is almost always presented as something that happened spontaneously in a bubble. It's a bit like how "Native Americans" are always presented as entirely innocent noble savages when US history is taught, even though just basic familiarity with human nature should tell you that's highly unlikely.

And likewise the events leading up to the heinous atrocities against the Latins had it's origins among other things the shenanigans of the Venetians alongside other factors.

Mob violence has never been God's way of Justice. Rather as per(Romans 13) at least among humans. It's decided at courts of Law after the guilty has been arrested and charged.

Outside of war the courts and the judicial system decide the course of violence.
 
You are going to need a lot of evidence to support that accusation.
Have you read the Enslaved Will? Luther and his merry group of degenerates 'liberated' nuns so they could experience sexual 'freedom', which often meant being taken advantage of. Look it up.

He was a wild pimp who couldn't control his passions, and on the totem pole of religious founders, ranks slightly above Mohammed.

We are all entitled to our opinions, and mine is that Protestantism is a joke.
 
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