Can anyone think of a magic key that would solve the Orthodox-Catholic split?

Agree, for example, if one or both became so downtrodden and persecuted, that their call for help would force a reconcilliation. The question is 1) Will this ever happen? and 2) Who would be first? Geopolitics and demographics would come into play in this scenario. Catholics have the numbers, and geographic diversity (meaning more significant poplations in more countries throughout the world); and Russia, home to many Orthos, is high on the list of targets of the left - so my guess is the orthos are more likely to be persecuted severely in the next 100 years than Catholics, but I think, unfortunately we will all suffer, to some extent. We already are. Kind of morbid, but this thread made me think of this scenario, as a Catholic.

With all due respect my brother. Christians need to get the hell out of this Jewish persecution complex. I almost exclusively seen this among the Orthodox community, rarely with Catholics.

What is the weakness guys?? The Church is built on the blood of the martyrs I know but the Orthodox could learn a thing or two from the Catholic warrior tradition. Do not prepare for persecution, prepare to take up your cross and fight. Dying for the faith on the battlefield is martyrdom. Die on your feet not on your knees. This cuckoldry is ruining Christianity. I don't mean to attack my fellow Orthodox brothers but man up. I see abunch of cries and weeps for byzantium and the horror the latins committed against them and poor us we went on to be persecuted by the Ottomans and Bolsheviks etc. Most of you guys are not even the ethnicity of the persecuted ethnic christian groups and are converts. What is this LARP? May god have mercy on the persecuted I am not trying to undermine that at all but still.

Instead of Christians preparing for persecution, Christians need to prepare for war! Stop falling into the HERESY of pacifism and completely turning a blind eye to the Christian Warrior Tradition.

Lift weights, toughen up become strong, attend the latin mass, pray the rosary. Ave maria!

I would like to disclaim that I am not advocating for violence or inciting harm on anyone this post was merely laying out a potential and hypothetical scenario and was engaging public discourse regarding important topics of the Christian faith. Thank you
 

Invocato

Sparrow
With all due respect my brother. Christians need to get the hell out of this Jewish persecution complex. I almost exclusively seen this among the Orthodox community, rarely with Catholics.

What is the weakness guys?? The Church is built on the blood of the martyrs I know but the Orthodox could learn a thing or two from the Catholic warrior tradition. Do not prepare for persecution, prepare to take up your cross and fight. Dying for the faith on the battlefield is martyrdom. Die on your feet not on your knees. This cuckoldry is ruining Christianity. I don't mean to attack my fellow Orthodox brothers but man up. I see abunch of cries and weeps for byzantium and the horror the latins committed against them and poor us we went on to be persecuted by the Ottomans and Bolsheviks etc. Most of you guys are not even the ethnicity of the persecuted ethnic christian groups and are converts. What is this LARP? May god have mercy on the persecuted I am not trying to undermine that at all but still.

Instead of Christians preparing for persecution, Christians need to prepare for war! Stop falling into the HERESY of pacifism and completely turning a blind eye to the Christian Warrior Tradition.

Lift weights, toughen up become strong, attend the latin mass, pray the rosary. Ave maria!

I would like to disclaim that I am not advocating for violence or inciting harm on anyone this post was merely laying out a potential and hypothetical scenario and was engaging public discourse regarding important topics of the Christian faith. Thank you
With all due respect, Christian values, and Christians, are being attacked by secular, and other, groups daily. Society now considers it perfectly acceptable to denegrate Christians in public and media.

Also Christians don't prepare for war, we maintain a right of self-defense, and spread the word of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. I sense you are secular, protestant, or some other faith?
 

Eusebius Erasmus

Kingfisher
This is with such proto-muslim obtuse attitude that orthodoxy - which has a lot of decent members - will always be seen with some kind of pity from true Catholicsm.
Meh, Orthodoxy is the True Faith. Catholicism doesn't have a leg to stand on at this stage.

Right now, these internecine squabbles have to be set aside while Christians prepare for an onslaught of persecution.
 
With all due respect my brother. Christians need to get the hell out of this Jewish persecution complex. I almost exclusively seen this among the Orthodox community, rarely with Catholics.

What is the weakness guys?? The Church is built on the blood of the martyrs I know but the Orthodox could learn a thing or two from the Catholic warrior tradition. Do not prepare for persecution, prepare to take up your cross and fight. Dying for the faith on the battlefield is martyrdom. Die on your feet not on your knees. This cuckoldry is ruining Christianity. I don't mean to attack my fellow Orthodox brothers but man up. I see abunch of cries and weeps for byzantium and the horror the latins committed against them and poor us we went on to be persecuted by the Ottomans and Bolsheviks etc. Most of you guys are not even the ethnicity of the persecuted ethnic christian groups and are converts. What is this LARP? May god have mercy on the persecuted I am not trying to undermine that at all but still.

Instead of Christians preparing for persecution, Christians need to prepare for war! Stop falling into the HERESY of pacifism and completely turning a blind eye to the Christian Warrior Tradition.

Lift weights, toughen up become strong, attend the latin mass, pray the rosary. Ave maria!

I would like to disclaim that I am not advocating for violence or inciting harm on anyone this post was merely laying out a potential and hypothetical scenario and was engaging public discourse regarding important topics of the Christian faith. Thank you
I don't see any Biblical argument in what you're saying. This is more the rhetoric of just kill all the infidels and go on crusades. If you're bloodthirsty you might be better of with Islam (although I increasingly realize Islam at its core has more in common with Christianity and the truth than the evil media has portrayed it over the years), but that's not Christianity. Might sound good in a total war computergame, yet forgiveness, compassion, humility, acceptance, peace, repentance and righteousness are at the core of our religion. There is a strong biblical argument to adhere to authority as it is a cornerstone of stability and conflict resolve (of course Romans 13, as often cited among others, e.g. Timothy and Peter), however when authority clashes with the teachings of God, we are to adhere to God always (see Peter and John in Acts as they were forbidden to talk about Jesus and do his works, Daniel and others in Daniel when they were forced to worship a statue or were forced to not pray). Hence we have to discern when governments are doing evil (and they in the process now to really force us to make tough decisions, as they are driven by a Satanic plot that we are all aware of on this forum), yet this sword between the teeth kill 'm all rhetoric has no place in Christianity, at least not the interpretation of the Orthodox study bible among other generally held views.
 

NickK

Woodpecker
With all due respect my brother. Christians need to get the hell out of this Jewish persecution complex. I almost exclusively seen this among the Orthodox community, rarely with Catholics.

What is the weakness guys?? The Church is built on the blood of the martyrs I know but the Orthodox could learn a thing or two from the Catholic warrior tradition. Do not prepare for persecution, prepare to take up your cross and fight. Dying for the faith on the battlefield is martyrdom. Die on your feet not on your knees. This cuckoldry is ruining Christianity. I don't mean to attack my fellow Orthodox brothers but man up. I see abunch of cries and weeps for byzantium and the horror the latins committed against them and poor us we went on to be persecuted by the Ottomans and Bolsheviks etc. Most of you guys are not even the ethnicity of the persecuted ethnic christian groups and are converts. What is this LARP? May god have mercy on the persecuted I am not trying to undermine that at all but still.

Instead of Christians preparing for persecution, Christians need to prepare for war! Stop falling into the HERESY of pacifism and completely turning a blind eye to the Christian Warrior Tradition.

Lift weights, toughen up become strong, attend the latin mass, pray the rosary. Ave maria!

I would like to disclaim that I am not advocating for violence or inciting harm on anyone this post was merely laying out a potential and hypothetical scenario and was engaging public discourse regarding important topics of the Christian faith. Thank you
This post shows exactly why Papists will never get what Christianity is all about.
They have succumbed to the wordly spirit and made a new gospel where there are warrior monks, "bishops" with armies, and crusades.

edit: And a bank of the "holy spirit"! :laughter:
 

Vyck

Pigeon
27867030_10157051556657388_6324373940487368205_n1.jpg
 

Vyck

Pigeon
For those who do not recognize the major differences between Catholicism and Orthodoxy, I post below:

The essential differences

1. Papal Supremacy.


This concept appeared practically when the emperor of the Byzantine Empire was a woman. It's about Irina. The pope could not stand the idea that a woman would be his hierarchical superior so he invented the famous document called Donatio Constantini, based on this gross lie, the pope of Rome still behaves like a head of state.

2. Filioque.

The Catholics changed the Creed to make more sense in reality they complicated things and brought down the person of the Holy Spirit.


3. Chastity of priests.

In Timothy it is said very clearly that we must choose from among ourselves as a priest a married man who is a good father to his children. Those who want to follow the Lord completely must give up the world completely and become monastic. Catholics did a Salade de fruit.

4. Euharestia

For Catholics it is a biscuit. for the Orthodox it is wine with bread

Small differences

Immaculate Conception and the recently promoted concept that it was not the Jews who killed Christ.
 
Well,

Clearly I was vindicated in what I said. All above is Orthodox spewing out cuckhold Christianity and effeminate Jewish persecution complex rhetoric. And resorting to bashing Rome.

Read up on Christendom and see how many people would laugh in your face for being this weak back then. Oh wait no Christendom was Catholic and has the spirit of the antichrist, I forgot sorry. Not like we spread the Cross across the globe, Evangelizing whole continents, while Orthodox were confined to Russia, Greece, Serbia and Romania.

Well then on your knees gentlemen.
 
A decade+ ago I was looking for the truth after giving up on the inch-deep and mile-wide Protestantism I grew up with. My impression after reading what each side had to say about the other was the Catholics saw the rift as a tragedy and looked for reconciliation, while the Orthodox, well, basically despise the Catholic Church and base much of their identity on not being in communion with Rome. If the Filioque were given up tomorrow, and Ex Cathedra infallibility were made subject to majority vote of all ordained bishops the next day, my impression is the Orthodox would quickly find another reason to stay apart. If one side or the other does not want to reunite, then a reunification is not likely under any circumstances.
 
A decade+ ago I was looking for the truth after giving up on the inch-deep and mile-wide Protestantism I grew up with. My impression after reading what each side had to say about the other was the Catholics saw the rift as a tragedy and looked for reconciliation, while the Orthodox, well, basically despise the Catholic Church and base much of their identity on not being in communion with Rome. If the Filioque were given up tomorrow, and Ex Cathedra infallibility were made subject to majority vote of all ordained bishops the next day, my impression is the Orthodox would quickly find another reason to stay apart. If one side or the other does not want to reunite, then a reunification is not likely under any circumstances.

EXACTLY.
 

Eusebius Erasmus

Kingfisher
Well,

Clearly I was vindicated in what I said. All above is Orthodox spewing out cuckhold Christianity and effeminate Jewish persecution complex rhetoric. And resorting to bashing Rome.

Read up on Christendom and see how many people would laugh in your face for being this weak back then. Oh wait no Christendom was Catholic and has the spirit of the antichrist, I forgot sorry. Not like we spread the Cross across the globe, Evangelizing whole continents, while Orthodox were confined to Russia, Greece, Serbia and Romania.

Well then on your knees gentlemen.
Meh, the Catholics certainly had their purpose in Western Europe, but the Orthodox Church is the true One.

These internecine conflicts are futile, however, when we are facing persecution against traditional Christians, whether Catholic or Orthodox.
 

SevenUp

Chicken
“Therefore the whole and entire Catholic doctrine is to be presented and explained: by no means is it permitted to pass over in silence or to veil in ambiguous terms the Catholic truth regarding the nature and way of justification, the constitution of the Church, the primacy of jurisdiction of the Roman Pontiff, and the only true union by the return of the dissidents to the one true Church of Christ.”
—Pope Pius XII, Instruction On the Ecumenical Movement, n. II, 1949

Even on the plea of promoting unity it is not allowed to dissemble one single dogma; for, as the Patriarch of Alexandria warns us, ‘although the desire of peace is a noble and excellent thing, yet we must not for its sake neglect the virtue of loyalty in Christ.’ Consequently, the much desired return of erring sons to true and genuine unity in Christ will not be furthered by exclusive concentration on those doctrines which all, or most, communities glorying in the Christian name accept in common. The only successful method will be that which bases harmony and agreement among Christ’s faithful ones upon all the truths, and the whole of the truths, which God has revealed.”
—Pope Pius XII, Encyclical Orientalis Ecclesiae, n. 16, 1944


...Some are more easily deceived by the outward appearance of good when there is question of fostering unity among all Christians.

4. Is it not right, it is often repeated, indeed, even consonant with duty, that all who invoke the name of Christ should abstain from mutual reproaches and at long last be united in mutual charity? Who would dare to say that he loved Christ, unless he worked with all his might to carry out the desires of Him, Who asked His Father that His disciples might be “one.”[1] And did not the same Christ will that His disciples should be marked out and distinguished from others by this characteristic, namely that they loved one another: “By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love one for another”?[2] All Christians, they add, should be as “one”: for then they would be much more powerful in driving out the pest of irreligion, which like a serpent daily creeps further and becomes more widely spread, and prepares to rob the Gospel of its strength. These things and others that class of men who are known as pan-Christians continually repeat and amplify; and these men, so far from being quite few and scattered, have increased to the dimensions of an entire class, and have grouped themselves into widely spread societies, most of which are directed by non-Catholics, although they are imbued with varying doctrines concerning the things of faith. This undertaking is so actively promoted as in many places to win for itself the adhesion of a number of citizens, and it even takes possession of the minds of very many Catholics and allures them with the hope of bringing about such a union as would be agreeable to the desires of Holy Mother Church, who has indeed nothing more at heart than to recall her erring sons and to lead them back to her bosom. But in reality beneath these enticing words and blandishments lies hid a most grave error, by which the foundations of the Catholic faith are completely destroyed.

***********

10. So, Venerable Brethren, it is clear why this Apostolic See has never allowed its subjects to take part in the assemblies of non-Catholics: for the union of Christians can only be promoted by promoting the return to the one true Church of Christ of those who are separated from it, for in the past they have unhappily left it. To the one true Church of Christ, we say, which is visible to all, and which is to remain, according to the will of its Author, exactly the same as He instituted it. During the lapse of centuries, the mystical Spouse of Christ has never been contaminated, nor can she ever in the future be contaminated, as Cyprian bears witness: “The Bride of Christ cannot be made false to her Spouse: she is incorrupt and modest. She knows but one dwelling, she guards the sanctity of the nuptial chamber chastely and modestly.”[20] The same holy Martyr with good reason marveled exceedingly that anyone could believe that “this unity in the Church which arises from a divine foundation, and which is knit together by heavenly sacraments, could be rent and torn asunder by the force of contrary wills.”[21] For since the mystical body of Christ, in the same manner as His physical body, is one,[22] compacted and fitly joined together,[23] it were foolish and out of place to say that the mystical body is made up of members which are disunited and scattered abroad: whosoever therefore is not united with the body is no member of it, neither is he in communion with Christ its head.[24]

11. Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors. Did not the ancestors of those who are now entangled in the errors of Photius and the reformers, obey the Bishop of Rome, the chief shepherd of souls? Alas their children left the home of their fathers, but it did not fall to the ground and perish for ever, for it was supported by God. Let them therefore return to their common Father, who, forgetting the insults previously heaped on the Apostolic See, will receive them in the most loving fashion. For if, as they continually state, they long to be united with Us and ours, why do they not hasten to enter the Church, “the Mother and mistress of all Christ’s faithful”?[25] Let them hear Lactantius crying out: The Catholic Church is alone in keeping the true worship. This is the fount of truth, this the house of Faith, this the temple of God: if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation. Let none delude himself with obstinate wrangling. For life and salvation are here concerned, which will be lost and entirely destroyed, unless their interests are carefully and assiduously kept in mind.”[26]

12. Let, therefore, the separated children draw nigh to the Apostolic See, set up in the City which Peter and Paul, the Princes of the Apostles, consecrated by their blood; to that See, We repeat, which is “the root and womb whence the Church of God springs,”[27] not with the intention and the hope that “the Church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth”[28] will cast aside the integrity of the faith and tolerate their errors, but, on the contrary, that they themselves submit to its teaching and government. Would that it were Our happy lot to do that which so many of Our predecessors could not, to embrace with fatherly affection those children, whose unhappy separation from Us We now bewail. Would that God our Savior, “Who will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth,”[29] would hear us when We humbly beg that He would deign to recall all who stray to the unity of the Church! In this most important undertaking We ask and wish that others should ask the prayers of Blessed Mary the Virgin, Mother of divine grace, victorious over all heresies and Help of Christians, that She may implore for Us the speedy coming of the much hoped-for day, when all men shall hear the voice of Her divine Son, and shall be “careful to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.”[30]
Pope Pius XI, Encyclical Mortalium Animos “On Religious Unity”, 1928.
 

SevenUp

Chicken
This dispute over the Filioque is at the root of the debate between the Orthodox and their tradition-centered view and the Catholic Church with it's faith-centered view. The Orthodox maintain the "letter of the law" in their strict adherence to the old formula, but in the process overlook much of the true significance of the gospel message. They diminish God's knowability through Christ, one of the profound truths that fundamentally separates Christianity from all other religions. In the process they descend into the theological abyss of ascending gnosis, negative theology, pantheism, and a kind of nihilistic moral relativism. This has led to a theological convergence with non-Christian eastern religions as Christ has become progressively marginalized. The Catholic Church on the other hand embraces the self-evident truth of the Gospel message and places that truth above any creed or formulation. It allows that truth to supersede any tradition, no matter how firmily entrenched. It insists on the knowability of God through Christ and his example, through his sacrifice and resurrection.
 
Agree, for example, if one or both became so downtrodden and persecuted, that their call for help would force a reconcilliation. The question is 1) Will this ever happen? and 2) Who would be first? Geopolitics and demographics would come into play in this scenario. Catholics have the numbers, and geographic diversity (meaning more significant poplations in more countries throughout the world); and Russia, home to many Orthos, is high on the list of targets of the left - so my guess is the orthos are more likely to be persecuted severely in the next 100 years than Catholics, but I think, unfortunately we will all suffer, to some extent. We already are. Kind of morbid, but this thread made me think of this scenario, as a Catholic.
Great post but I think it's more likely to be the other way around. Russia appears to be the most Christian white country, and white countries usually are the only ones that have the power youre speaking of.
 
This analogy doesnt "solve" the problem, but might help in creating more dialogue.

Orthodox Christians and Catholic Christians are like brothers of a family. However the Orthodox are estranged from the father of the family. They acknowledge he exists and is due a certain honor, and the title "father", but they don't believe fathers on earth have natural authority over their children: only The One Father in heaven.
 
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Invocato

Sparrow
For those who do not recognize the major differences between Catholicism and Orthodoxy, I post below:

The essential differences

1. Papal Supremacy.

This concept appeared practically when the emperor of the Byzantine Empire was a woman. It's about Irina. The pope could not stand the idea that a woman would be his hierarchical superior so he invented the famous document called Donatio Constantini, based on this gross lie, the pope of Rome still behaves like a head of state.

2. Filioque.

The Catholics changed the Creed to make more sense in reality they complicated things and brought down the person of the Holy Spirit.


3. Chastity of priests.

In Timothy it is said very clearly that we must choose from among ourselves as a priest a married man who is a good father to his children. Those who want to follow the Lord completely must give up the world completely and become monastic. Catholics did a Salade de fruit.

4. Euharestia

For Catholics it is a biscuit. for the Orthodox it is wine with bread

Small differences

Immaculate Conception and the recently promoted concept that it was not the Jews who killed Christ.
Is #4 that essential of a difference? I don't see it. For Catholics it is also wine with bread (the host is the bread/body). Perhaps you could explain? Thanks.

Also #3, I've gone back and forth on this one. I do believe allowing priests to marry may have prevented some or all of the recent scandals in the Catholic church, which I view as detestable, and even caused me to go protestant for a while. However, I also see that married priests are obviously beholden to their wives and children more than celibate priests. So, if the time ever comes to get really based in the church again, I would imagine that married priests will not make the grade, compared to celibate priests. Also, I think allowing priests to marry can ultimately be a gateway for allowing female clergy in the church, which, in my opinion, is a nightmare scenario for any denom.
 
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Both of those councils you mentioned where us "Eastern schismatics" "rejoined" the West were led on the Orthodox side by just a handful of Greek delegates. This isn't how Orthodoxy works, you can't say all of Orthodoxy did something when only a minority of bishops within one of the Patriarchates ever agreed to the results of those councils. We don't have a person or even one patriarchate with universal jurisdiction over all of us.
Maybe so, but DeFide makes a useful addition to the thread when he points out at least the practical thing that could be done which would end the schism tomorrow: renounce those errors, (which somebody at least saw fit to do twice.) It would seem if we could get ahold of that list, we'd at least have an idea of the mechanics.
 
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