Churchill Still Stands Alone

[SteveMcMahon]

A far smarter policy would have been for the UK and France to build up their own forces. They should have let Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union tear one another apart, and then mopped up the victor. In my opinion, WW2 was a much more stupid strategic mistake than WW1, and Churchill is largely responsible for that due to his tunnel-vision, massive ego and general war mongering.

Churchill strikes me as an aristocratic, more eloquent version of US Senator and sometimes Presidential candidate John McCain. Both of them warriors with undeniable personal charisma and strength, both of them seemingly incapable of thinking through strategy.

Although he said some witty things about women or Muslims, I can't get behind the hero worship. The first half of the 20th century was a time of massive egos far beyond their owners' intellectual capabilities, and we're still paying the price for that today.

Yes, the hero worship is way overdone.

It's the opposite with Chamberlain, who is painted as a simpering coward and idiot when in fact he was much more deft at statecraft than Churchill ever was. People also selectively edit out Churchill's domestic political decisions during and after WW2, in which he allowed the Labour Party to Sovietise the British economy and create the monstrous welfare state that is now choking the life out of this country.

Winston Churchill succeeded in being on the winning side in WW2, but he failed to safeguard every political principle he once claimed to hold.

He was the arch-imperialist whose decisions led to the dismantling of the British Empire during his own lifetime.

He was the friend of democracy who abandoned half of Europe to Josef Motherfucking Stalin.

He was the avowed anti-socialist who let the Labour Party turn Britain into a socialist country where virtually every major industrial and business concern was owned and run by the state.

There's a lot to admire in the life of Winston Churchill, but he made some terrible mistakes too. He was a man of considerable strengths and considerable flaws, as are we all.

 

[Saga]

This is off-topic but I think it's worth commenting on.

The real victors of WW2, when seen from the eyes of the defeated looking out from the now long gone Old World, were the indomitable and indefatigable Jewish people in a rout that would even make Sun Tzu blush. Hitler, Roosevelt, and Churchill all lost, insofar as their people's interests were aligned with ancient traditions. But only Hitler fought honestly for them, however wrong they were, and however much he abused them to make them fit his time.

Hitler encouraged superficial imitations of German heritage, but they were in reality contrary to tradition. Serious conservative minds opposed or disapproved of Hitler (Ernst Junger, Eric Voegelin, Edgar Julius Jung, Erik von Kuehnelt-Leddihn...) while the main Nazi theorists were intellectual dwarfs who wrote children's books and clumsily tried to misrepresent the ideas of Nietzsche. Heidegger was the rare exception of a truly intellectual member of the Nazi party, but after 1934 he had little to no involvement in party activities and later admitted that his participation was "the greatest stupidity of his life".

The German clergy often worked to oppose Nazism whenever they could, which is understandable given the anti-church policies of the NSDAP, resulting in over 400 German priests being sent to Dachau. The bishops of Munster and Berlin openly criticized the regime, and Protestant pastors routinely opposed Nazi efforts to meddle in their churches (some paid for this with their freedom and/or lives). The old nobility strongly rejected Nazism as well, as evidenced by the Crown Prince of Bavaria's family being thrown in the concentration camps. Finally, elements of the Wehrmacht's leadership, including Rommel, saw Hitler as a dangerous loon and tried to get rid of him...and the fact that Hitler responded to July 20 by killing and purging so many (among them some of the finest and most decorated in all of Germany) only underlines how widely that view was shared.

So counted among Hitler's opponents: the German military leadership, the clergy, conservative intellectuals, Germany's old nobility and royalty...exactly how many pillars of German tradition need to oppose Nazism before the antagonism between the two becomes undeniable?

Furthermore, what developed in the west after WWII cannot be blamed upon the conflict itself or its immediate results, as that's a post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. The related notion that this can all be blamed on Jews also makes zero sense.

 

[Sawyer]

I didn't say nor do I think that "this could all be blamed on Jews." In fact I believe that Christians absolutely are to blame for the loss of their world. What is my perspective in this thread related to but Churchill's role in destroying Christendom?

I also stated in my last comment what I meant by "Christendom." What I meant by "Christendom" was a world in which, for better or for worse, the people who believed in the God-Man who said the Jewish kingdom was not of this world, held moral authority. This meant the nation-states within Christendom, for better or for worse, had civic authority over the Jews and would often expel them. Obviously it was also imperative that Christendom maintain the moral authority, as they believed (again, for better or for worse) was given them by their Messiah, to ensure that the Jews did not have a kingdom of this world. In short, Christendom was a world in which the Jews did not have a Kingdom of this world.

Were there other interests at play in WW2? Of course. But what I am arguing here is that the defining result of WW2 was the ultimate loss of the moral authority of Christendom to implement their Messiah's mandate that the Jewish kingdom was not of this world.

As I said before, Hitler's alignment with tradition was the best he could do under the circumstances given an already collapsed Christendom. There is a large chance I would have been compelled to go against Hitler myself because of his tweaking of actual tradition. But the fact of the matter is, calling people to get on their knees and pray for redemption just was not going to work. The time for fine instruments and careful procedure was long gone for Germany, or Christendom for that matter. A crowbar was about the best one could hope for. And obviously any experienced observer, near or far, would say ah, yeah, you might not want to go there. And he fucked up huge doctrinally. But he grabbed the crowbar nonetheless, because the time had long past since a proper traditional effective fighting doctrine could have been developed. As I said, he was fighting for a world that was long gone. All that was left was a crowbar.

But with regard to the issue of Jews wining the war, and on the issue of traditional Christian doctrine of their kingdom not being of this world, even though Hitler was integral to the creation of Israel, Hitler was the closest of he, Churchill and Roosevelt to the traditional doctrine of Christendom that nation-states had the right to expel. RIGHT OR WRONG. It was what was believed.

I don't see how it can be argued that the biggest military win of the last 2000 years was not the win by the Jews of a Homeland of this world. I mean come on! You kidding? If Moses and Christ were sitting on a hill looking at the situation at the founding of Israel, Moses would be saying "Holy cow they did it," and Christ would be saying "Holy cow they lost it."

And from the perspective of a member of ancient Christendom, looking out from the grave, the loss of moral authority in the world that the existence of Israel would imply would be the obvious cause of all the other disturbing elements they would see in what was once their Christendom, including the dissolution of sovereignty and native peoplehood in their nations. It would be as obvious as 1+1=2. And they wouldn't be saying that "Jews did it to us," they would be saying their world finally failed. Which it obviously did. Because it was left for a guy in a completely corrupted nation in a civilization long past its "good until" date to grab a crowbar to defend.

I say it is good for some and bad for others. Ultimately it doesn't really matter to me that much other than that it is seen for what it is. But it is what it is. The Western World, traditionally speaking insofar as its traditional attitude (right or wrong) towards Jews, is no longer Christian. It is Jewish. That is what happened in WW2. And it is by no means "all the fault of the Jews." Not hardly. But it is the defining moment of the world since Christ.

 

[Sawyer]

Let me explain what I'm saying in a very loose metaphor.

Let's say we're Captain Kirk flying through the galaxy. We come across a planet "Zed" where there are a formerly great people that for the life of them cannot get their governments to recognize their authority. Kirk asks the leader of the stricken people their history.

"Well," says the alien, "In the beginning their was a dairy farmers union and there were free farmers. A man showed up and said he was there to save the dairy farmers' union. The union said well here then, eat some cottage cheese. Their savior said no, I am not here to eat cottage cheese. The union said well then you're not our savior. Our savior must eat cottage cheese."

The savior wouldn't eat cottage cheese and the dairy farmers' union started to get real upset and cause all shit ton of problems with the authorities on Zed. Why wouldn't this guy eat cottage cheese? All he had to do was eat some damn cottage cheese and it would all die down. But he wouldn't, and he ended up getting killed by the authorities in order to get the dairy farmers' union to settle down.

But the free farmers liked this dude because he was doing and saying all kinds of cool shit. So they looked at the foundation of what got the dairy union savior killed and they realized it was not eating cottage cheese. So they based their new civilization on not eating cottage cheese. The civilization grew and reflected all kinds of things the free farmers liked.

Then the free farmers got comfortable and some started eating cottage cheese. It didn't really matter after all. It's just cottage cheese, it's good. The free farmers started to fracture and believe different shit. They started different nations and factions. Then one day one of the free farmers looked around and didn't like what he saw. His people were a mess. So he figured he would bring his nation back to his civilization's roots and not eat cottage cheese anymore. The rest of the world was already eating cottage cheese and the nation was destroyed.

Kirk asks the leader of the free farmers if he was eating cottage cheese. "Of course, we all eat cottage cheese."

"Well that's your problem. That's why you're not taken seriously. That's why you're losing your nation."

"But why, cottage cheese is good," asks the leader of the free farmers.

"It may be," says Kirk "but you can't expect anyone to take you seriously when the civilization you were hoping to preserve was based on not eating cottage cheese and you're eating cottage cheese."

"Why not?" asks the leader.

"Because it causes a spiritual dissonance that disarms your moral authority. You believe in a savior that died for not eating cottage cheese and you're eating cottage cheese. Your actions in themselves are saying that your savior was wrong. They are also saying that all your ancestors who built your nations who did not eat cottage cheese were wrong. When you are eating cottage cheese, out of whatever motive you believe to be true or good, you are disowning your entire patrimony. It doesn't surprise me that nobody respects you or that you've lost the moral authority to maintain your nations, it surprises me you haven't all been killed. Looking at the situation I can see you haven't been killed because you are so ineffectual you make incredible slaves."

"So what do we do," asks the leader of the free farmers.

"Well," Kirk says, "I've got two options for you. First is you can stop eating cottage cheese. Not because in the moment it is objectively objectionable, but because of what it says about how you feel about your savior or the civilization your ancestors built. In short, you are not taken seriously as a free farmer eating cottage cheese, nor should you be.

"The second," Kirk continues "is that you can create a new savior for your people that allows for the eating of cottage cheese so you can eat cottage cheese without being spiritually dissonant and relinquishing your moral authority. If you must eat cottage cheese, you need a god that didn't die for not doing so."

"Thanks Kirk," says the alien.

"No prob," says Kirk, grabbing his communicator. "One to beam up, Scotty."

Cut to credits.

To say that a country whose foundation was established on not eating cottage cheese wasn't fundamentally compromised by slaughtering people who didn't want to eat cottage cheese is ridiculous. Ask a soldier. What you kill defines you until you decide otherwise. WW2 turned the west from free farmers into free farmers who eat cottage cheese -- an absolutely meaningless and illogical personal, spiritual and cultural construct. The meaninglessness of this construct has evidenced itself over the last 70 years with its adherent's near complete inability to maintain or defend even a shred of their former values or mores. Not a shred. In spite of endless effort to the contrary, their women literally fuck canines on the internet, faggots dance in the streets, borders? lol, family? lol, third graders learning to give blowjobs, etc. The only reason, I repeat the only reason, the free farmers who eat cottage cheese haven't been completely slaughtered, is because they make such good slaves.

 

[Quintus Curtius]

I posted an article today at Return of Kings about Churchill.

I like Churchill. Of all the Allied leaders, he is the one I most sympathize with. Even more than Roosevelt, who remains an elusive, evasive, and rather cold figure.

 

[Pepini]

http://www.theguardian.com/theguardian/2002/nov/28/features11.g21

"This movement among the Jews is not new. From the days of Spartacus-Weishaupt to those of Karl Marx, and down to Trotsky (Russia), Bela Kun (Hungary), Rosa Luxembourg (Germany), and Emma Goldman (United States)... this worldwide conspiracy for the overthrow of civilisation and for the reconstitution of society on the basis of arrested development, of envious malevolence, and impossible equality, has been steadily growing. It has been the mainspring of every subversive movement during the 19th century; and now at last this band of extraordinary personalities from the underworld of the great cities of Europe and America have gripped the Russian people by the hair of their heads and have become practically the undisputed masters of that enormous empire."

Writing on 'Zionism versus Bolshevism' in the Illustrated Sunday Herald, February 1920

As a side note I have zero hatred for the jews. This is not an anti-jew post. Since their masters treat them worse than how they treat catholics.

 

[Sawyer]

Catholicism had to be brutal to challenge the Jewish claim to the God of the Old Testament. You don't send the Zanesville JV up up against the French Foreign Legion. You don't put Lloyd Christmas up against Garry Kasparov. In terms of WW2, Churchill and Roosevelt were definitely playing the roll of the Zanesville JV.

"We have killed the wrong pig," reportedly said Churchill. Can't be more of a pawn than that. Patton reportedly agreed.

But yeah people trapped in either the Jewish or Catholic traditions are not handed a box of chocolates at birth.

 

[eradicator]

The same guy who appeased Hitler? Never mind the fact he's a product of Victorian England.

I cast my reservations about Churchill.

Churchill was a warhawk who desired to oppose Hitler from the Start.



A colossus of a man. One of the giants of the 20th century. That is a good article, the debate about whether or not great men shape the world or simply hear Gods footsteps echoing down the hallways of history and grab onto his coattails is interesting.

Personally I subscribe to the former theory.

Churchill's speeches are some of the finest pieces of oratory we have. I highly recommend them to anyone who wants to take up public speaking.

Indeed. Chuchhill has little army and his country was not prepared for war at all, but right was right. He knew the right thing to do was to fight the germans.

As for "he stands alone", eh, I could make a decent case for octavian(built up the infrastructure, ran the worlds largest empire with the efficiency of an accountant) or napoleon(great war general and great leader on and off the battlefield, inspired and loved by his troops and countrymen, men would willingly throw down their lives at his feet and fight as hard as they could because they were so enamored with him) as greatest leader of all time.

At that point, we are just comparing apples to oranges. All of them were a great leader for their country at the time when each country needed such a man.

 

[Engineer]

I posted an article today at Return of Kings about Churchill.

I like Churchill. Of all the Allied leaders, he is the one I most sympathize with. Even more than Roosevelt, who remains an elusive, evasive, and rather cold figure.

Excellent article. I started his biography by Roy Jenkins recently but it was unreadable, full of unnecessary commentary and petty gossip on the class system. Exchanged after three chapters for something on Patton.

Can anyone recommend a good biography of the man? Something shorter and more readable? Boris Johnson's recent effort? I simply don't have the bandwidth for a dense, slow book right now. My plan is first an overview of his entire life then focus on the war years with a second book.

 

[RexImperator]

In the past I've thought of Churchill as one of the greatest men of the 20th century, but as you dig deeper into reading history you wonder about some things.

Was Hitler really worse than Stalin? Why the double standard with the German invasion of Poland vs. the Soviet invasion?

At his core Churchill really despised Hitler but one wonders how much of this was recognizing a madman and how much of this was reflexively being opposed to any increase in German power which threatened the Empire.

Looking back with a hundred years of hindsight, WW1 was a colossal mistake. If the Germans had simply taken France quickly like in the Franco-Prussian War things would have been much better.

 

[Pride male]

Is it true Churchill only fucked one woman in his entire life?

 

[Paracelsus]

In the past I've thought of Churchill as one of the greatest men of the 20th century, but as you dig deeper into reading history you wonder about some things.

Was Hitler really worse than Stalin? Why the double standard with the German invasion of Poland vs. the Soviet invasion?

At his core Churchill really despised Hitler but one wonders how much of this was recognizing a madman and how much of this was reflexively being opposed to any increase in German power which threatened the Empire.

Looking back with a hundred years of hindsight, WW1 was a colossal mistake. If the Germans had simply taken France quickly like in the Franco-Prussian War things would have been much better.

Our world is still recovering from World War One. It really is. Some psychologists and commentators called it "The Great Suicide of Europe", and they're not far off. Sting in Children's Crusade sings about it being "The flower of England, face down in the mud, and stained in the blood of a whole generation."

Most of what comprised the living examples of patriarchy -- the male nobility -- were gunned down in far larger numbers than pretty much any other societal class, because the lower-level officers -- all young and strong men with decades of life ahead of them -- led charges into machine gun fire. Old generals, who would have been replaced by those young men, were left to linger on and bring their thinking into planning for the next couple of decades.

On top of that the fuckwits thought men related to one another would fight harder, so they put siblings in the same units as one another. Entire family names were wiped out on the fields of Belgium and France. And the campaigns also chewed up huge numbers of the colonies that could ill afford to lose those men. Australia, still a tiny colony in those days, and heavily dependent on young, strong men for its agricultural economy, lost five thousand men in one night -- at Fromelles if I remember right.

Try and imagine just for a second a world in which that generation of young men had been spared. Wilfred Owen and Rupert Brooke would have had lifetimes of poetry ahead of them. The Russian revolution might not have taken place - although maybe that's a forlorn hope given the way Nicholas II was fucking up his country. Poland might have survived to forge an alliance with Ukraine and Lithuania to become a great power. Turkey might have been a light of Western thought; Ataturk's reputation was forged at Gallipoli, but it seemed pretty clear he wanted the Ottoman Empire out and wanted to follow Western ideals of democracy. But more importantly all those young men would have been alive to advance our world. Any number of advances could have come generations ahead of where we are now.

 

[Balkan]

I posted an article today at Return of Kings about Churchill.

I like Churchill. Of all the Allied leaders, he is the one I most sympathize with. Even more than Roosevelt, who remains an elusive, evasive, and rather cold figure.

Excellent article. I started his biography by Roy Jenkins recently but it was unreadable, full of unnecessary commentary and petty gossip on the class system. Exchanged after three chapters for something on Patton.

Can anyone recommend a good biography of the man? Something shorter and more readable? Boris Johnson's recent effort? I simply don't have the bandwidth for a dense, slow book right now. My plan is first an overview of his entire life then focus on the war years with a second book.

The Churchill biography to rule them all. It's a 3 part series, each is ~1000 pages. I'm currently reading the first one and its surpassed all expectations.

 

[Pride male]

Anyone else seen those Hitler Reacts To... videos?

If I was Hitler I would of stopped at Sudenteland and just chilled out.