Clenbuterol?

[Scrapper]

Martin Berkhan is legend, the guy has presented mountains worth of data @ www.LeanGains.com promoting Intermittent Fasting & Fasted Training.

Likewise Victor Pride (bold and determined), Chris Deoudes (good looking loser), Mike Cernovich (danger and play) and our very own Roosh - have all been boasting about the endless benefits of Cold Showers for years.

You have not presented anything solid enough, aside from your own opinion, that would leave me to believe Fasted Training & Cold Showers are not extremely beneficial for improving body composition.

1 study revolving around 8 participants, that barely fills 1 paragraph worth of data and no caliper/body fat % testing of any sort?

 

[mikeymike]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21411835

Nobody said don't IF, just don't fasted train.

That is an interesting read, thanks for the link.

I had my doubts because I remember reading a study analyzed by Martin Behrkan (the leangains guy) that determined that vo2 was increased by fasting vs fed training which is the exact opposite of what this study says. His takeaway (though he definitely could be biased) was that training fasted was superior for several reasons. Either way, I am definitely no expert in biology so I don't think I am really qualified to evaluate the efficacy of either study.

For sure, you do have to take someones bias into account when reading how somebody is interpreting these studies, Behrkan does make his living off this... the study I posted was pretty straight forward. No need to interpret anything no bias. There are a number of studies showing that weight loss is no better fasted vs fed so you just have to put it together. For me it's rather straight forward. If I can lift heavier with higher intensity for longer in a fed state I'm going to burn more. If fed is having me burn more cals thru the 24 hrs post and I'm pushing harder in my workouts I am burning more overall. Even Leangains has programs that account for training while fed. I don't use IF myself but I have no problem with IF because I can understand how it works and see some benefit. Fasted training however provides minimal tangible benefits outside of liking how it feels. If that's the case then do it but if you're doing it because you think the results are going to be superior I don't believe that to be the case, in fact I think it'll slow your progress. I think there is going to be better results long term, if one were inclined to apply IF to find a way to train fed while incorporating the fast into the rest of your day.

 

[Saweeep]

I find it absolutely terrifying that a 16 year old was taking any kind of PED at all, let alone these.

Fucking crazy.

 

[zatara]

I find it absolutely terrifying that a 16 year old was taking any kind of PED at all, let alone these.

Fucking crazy.

Jeese, I didn't notice that when I first read through the thread, just went back and saw it now. That makes everything so much worse. There is no reason in the world a 16 year old should be on DNP or Clen.

This is the kind of behavior that leads to one dying in a Thai sauna at 22 years old.

 

[mikeymike]

Martin Berkhan is legend, the guy has presented mountains worth of data @ www.LeanGains.com promoting Intermittent Fasting & Fasted Training.

Likewise Victor Pride (bold and determined), Chris Deoudes (good looking loser), Mike Cernovich (danger and play) and our very own Roosh - have all been boasting about the endless benefits of Cold Showers for years.

You have not presented anything solid enough, aside from your own opinion, that would leave me to believe Fasted Training & Cold Showers are not extremely beneficial for improving body composition.

1 study revolving around 8 participants, that barely fills 1 paragraph worth of data and no caliper/body fat % testing of any sort?

If you want to pick and choose legends I can talk about real leading experts who have gone on to say that there is no upside to training fasted. Guys who have no skin in the game vs a guy who makes all his money on recommending fasting. Alan Aragon. Schoenfeld. Layne Norton. John Meadows, Chrisitian Thibodeau off the top of my head. IF has useful applications, fasted training does not.

I did say there was a benefit to cold immersion just not weight loss. It is a great recovery tool. For weight loss tho, pointless. The best studies done on brown fat when using cold immersion therapy had people lower their core temp for hours, 3 hours min per day in the case of one and the result was an extra 400ish cals per day. thats not a pound a week. How much do you think a cold shower for 5 minutes per day is going to do? Another had its participants in a cold respiration chamber all day and it burned roughly the same amount of cals. That isn't my opinion that is the studies...This is a case of the science showing something promising but having found no real practical application for it yet. Regarding pointing to non experts as your proof for cold immersion being an asset, I have no idea who 2 of them are don't visit their websites blogs but mikecf is a gym rat on trt, he's got reasons for being in shape, hard work not cold showers, wanna ask him how much of a difference cold water makes to his overall physique? ask him if he feels its the difference between somebody getting cut up or not, ask how much real weight he feels hes lost because of it. I dont care about anything else he feels on it, I said there were potential other benefits ask him specifically about how much hes lost because of his cold showers. I'll wait here for the answer. And no disrespect to Roosh, nothing but love but he's not in elite shape. Ive lived this life, Ive stepped on stage I train and prep with pros who are on stage today if theres an edge we'd be using it. I have zero reason to trash this beyond it simply doesn't work for weight loss. In the end its not hurting you so if somebody wants to try it, go ahead.

If you want to believe in fasted training so badly that this study doesn't sway you at all and leading experts don't phase you at all then what else can I say? You understand that is an abstract right? it was not a 1 paragraph study lol these studies aren't made so we can end discussions on message boards I wish I could hand you a 500 person study but we work with what we've got but the words are there for you to read, the experts tend to agree but if its working for you do your thing.

 

[Scrapper]

Martin Berkhan is legend, the guy has presented mountains worth of data @ www.LeanGains.com promoting Intermittent Fasting & Fasted Training.

Likewise Victor Pride (bold and determined), Chris Deoudes (good looking loser), Mike Cernovich (danger and play) and our very own Roosh - have all been boasting about the endless benefits of Cold Showers for years.

You have not presented anything solid enough, aside from your own opinion, that would leave me to believe Fasted Training & Cold Showers are not extremely beneficial for improving body composition.

1 study revolving around 8 participants, that barely fills 1 paragraph worth of data and no caliper/body fat % testing of any sort?

If you want to pick and choose legends I can talk about real leading experts who have gone on to say that there is no upside to training fasted. Guys who have no skin in the game vs a guy who makes all his money on recommending fasting. Alan Aragon. Schoenfeld. Layne Norton. John Meadows, Chrisitian Thibodeau off the top of my head. IF has useful applications, fasted training does not.

I did say there was a benefit to cold immersion just not weight loss. It is a great recovery tool. For weight loss tho, pointless. The best studies done on brown fat when using cold immersion therapy had people lower their core temp for hours, 3 hours min per day in the case of one and the result was an extra 400ish cals per day. thats not a pound a week. How much do you think a cold shower for 5 minutes per day is going to do? Another had its participants in a cold respiration chamber all day and it burned roughly the same amount of cals. That isn't my opinion that is the studies...This is a case of the science showing something promising but having found no real practical application for it yet. Regarding pointing to non experts as your proof for cold immersion being an asset, I have no idea who 2 of them are don't visit their websites blogs but mikecf is a gym rat on trt, he's got reasons for being in shape, hard work not cold showers, wanna ask him how much of a difference cold water makes to his overall physique? ask him if he feels its the difference between somebody getting cut up or not, ask how much real weight he feels hes lost because of it. I dont care about anything else he feels on it, I said there were potential other benefits ask him specifically about how much hes lost because of his cold showers. I'll wait here for the answer. And no disrespect to Roosh, nothing but love but he's not in elite shape. Ive lived this life, Ive stepped on stage I train and prep with pros who are on stage today if theres an edge we'd be using it. I have zero reason to trash this beyond it simply doesn't work for weight loss. In the end its not hurting you so if somebody wants to try it, go ahead.

If you want to believe in fasted training so badly that this study doesn't sway you at all and leading experts don't phase you at all then what else can I say? You understand that is an abstract right? it was not a 1 paragraph study lol these studies aren't made so we can end discussions on message boards I wish I could hand you a 500 person study but we work with what we've got but the words are there for you to read, the experts tend to agree but if its working for you do your thing.

Mikeymike, I am a very reasonable logic-minded person and I have to admit you have put together a great case & some very strong arguments above against Fasted Training + Cold Immersion.

What is your opinion on Hot Showers being shown to temporarily disrupt sperm and testosterone production?
and Cold Showers being shown to temporarily increase testosterone and sperm production?

You have to understand, unlike most "elite" athletes, I am not on TRT or Anabolics year round.
If a Hot Shower can disrupt Testosterone production for an hour or two a day and a cold one can boost it.
That is a potential 730 to 1460 hours a year, my Testosterone Production is elevated versus disrupted.
Everything adds up over time - this has to account for a significant body composition change overtime for the natural weightlifter.
Although, I can not prove this theory, just assumptions.
Also, if improved recovery is 100% proven with Cold Immersion, than this will indirectly lead to significant beneficial body composition changes as well.
Increased recovery = more frequent training sessions and less injuries.

As for Fasted Training - I train first thing in the AM for 30 to 45 minutes. right after awakening.
Typically I have gone 9 to 10 hours without food by this time.
I have been doing this same routine for 17 months now and I am easily maintaining the lowest body fat % of my life.
I understand however that this as well, is 100% anecdotal.

 

[mikeymike]

Martin Berkhan is legend, the guy has presented mountains worth of data @ www.LeanGains.com promoting Intermittent Fasting & Fasted Training.

Likewise Victor Pride (bold and determined), Chris Deoudes (good looking loser), Mike Cernovich (danger and play) and our very own Roosh - have all been boasting about the endless benefits of Cold Showers for years.

You have not presented anything solid enough, aside from your own opinion, that would leave me to believe Fasted Training & Cold Showers are not extremely beneficial for improving body composition.

1 study revolving around 8 participants, that barely fills 1 paragraph worth of data and no caliper/body fat % testing of any sort?

If you want to pick and choose legends I can talk about real leading experts who have gone on to say that there is no upside to training fasted. Guys who have no skin in the game vs a guy who makes all his money on recommending fasting. Alan Aragon. Schoenfeld. Layne Norton. John Meadows, Chrisitian Thibodeau off the top of my head. IF has useful applications, fasted training does not.

I did say there was a benefit to cold immersion just not weight loss. It is a great recovery tool. For weight loss tho, pointless. The best studies done on brown fat when using cold immersion therapy had people lower their core temp for hours, 3 hours min per day in the case of one and the result was an extra 400ish cals per day. thats not a pound a week. How much do you think a cold shower for 5 minutes per day is going to do? Another had its participants in a cold respiration chamber all day and it burned roughly the same amount of cals. That isn't my opinion that is the studies...This is a case of the science showing something promising but having found no real practical application for it yet. Regarding pointing to non experts as your proof for cold immersion being an asset, I have no idea who 2 of them are don't visit their websites blogs but mikecf is a gym rat on trt, he's got reasons for being in shape, hard work not cold showers, wanna ask him how much of a difference cold water makes to his overall physique? ask him if he feels its the difference between somebody getting cut up or not, ask how much real weight he feels hes lost because of it. I dont care about anything else he feels on it, I said there were potential other benefits ask him specifically about how much hes lost because of his cold showers. I'll wait here for the answer. And no disrespect to Roosh, nothing but love but he's not in elite shape. Ive lived this life, Ive stepped on stage I train and prep with pros who are on stage today if theres an edge we'd be using it. I have zero reason to trash this beyond it simply doesn't work for weight loss. In the end its not hurting you so if somebody wants to try it, go ahead.

If you want to believe in fasted training so badly that this study doesn't sway you at all and leading experts don't phase you at all then what else can I say? You understand that is an abstract right? it was not a 1 paragraph study lol these studies aren't made so we can end discussions on message boards I wish I could hand you a 500 person study but we work with what we've got but the words are there for you to read, the experts tend to agree but if its working for you do your thing.

Mikeymike, I am a very reasonable logic-minded person and I have to admit you have put together a great case & some very strong arguments above against Fasted Training + Cold Immersion.

What is your opinion on Hot Showers being shown to temporarily disrupt sperm and testosterone production?
and Cold Showers being shown to temporarily increase testosterone and sperm production?

You have to understand, unlike most "elite" athletes, I am not on TRT or Anabolics year round.
If a Hot Shower can disrupt Testosterone production for an hour or two a day and a cold one can boost it.
That is a potential 730 to 1460 hours a year, my Testosterone Production is elevated versus disrupted.
Everything adds up over time - this has to account for a significant body composition change overtime for the natural weightlifter.
Although, I can not prove this theory, just assumptions.
Also, if improved recovery is 100% proven with Cold Immersion, than this will indirectly lead to significant beneficial body composition changes as well.
Increased recovery = more frequent training sessions and less injuries.

As for Fasted Training - I train first thing in the AM for 30 to 45 minutes. right after awakening.
Typically I have gone 9 to 10 hours without food by this time.
I have been doing this same routine for 17 months now and I am easily maintaining the lowest body fat % of my life.
I understand however that this as well, is 100% anecdotal.

Re: hot and cold showers affecting test levels, sperm production, motility etc. What I was saying regarding fat loss with cold showers also applies here, I just don't feel we are elevating temps long enough in either direction for test levels to be affected in a meaningfull way during a shower. If you were to soak for 10-15 minutes in an ice bath you might see some slight elevation of test levels. If you were the type to take long hot baths or hot tub soaks daily you could see a slight decrease but I don't believe a shower is going to allow you to see any measurable gains even over time.

Improved recovery is proven with cold immersion but it hasn't translated to improved gains, in fact it's been the opposite. Cold will help with inflammation but inflammation isn't necessarily bad it's just not comfortable. There have been a couple studies done on the effect of using cold immersion therapy long term and it's been showing to decrease strength and hypertrophy and thus less gains overall. For a bb'er/pl'er this is terrible for the professional athlete who has lactic acid build up and needs to be able to function at peak performance it is less of an issue.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1113/JP270570/abstract

I understand that you're getting results with your routine, my question is have you tried other variations, maybe starting the fast earlier the prior day and training fed. My gut says it's more likely to be the strict adherence to diet (lowcarb) and IF combined with the dedication to training that has been the driving force behind your results moreso than any significant results from fasted training. I think you may be able to get superior results from combining these elements with fed state training.

 

[Fortis]

Honestly, unless you are spending 20 hours in the shower or something, I can't imagine that you're hurting your test production all that much by taking hot showers. Do guys in Africa have lower testosterone and sperm production because they're constantly bathed in hot, humid air? I don't think so. If the population demographics tell us anything, they're not having any difficulty having kids despite living in super hot conditions.


What guys need to realize is that testosterone production fluctuates by as much as 20% on a given month. That is a part of reality. Even if you do everything perfectly, year after year, your testosterone levels WILL decrease as you hit your late twenties and early thirties. It's just a fact of life. Sure, we all know that 80 year old bad-ass with test levels in the 4 digits despite being a run-down oldster, but who really wants to be a run down "natty" oldster?

Please be skeptical of anyone making money off of their bodies. Whenever I go on a fitness website, I pretty much assume that the author and models are taking gear. Being in shape year round is hard as fuck. They are all shooting something into their bodies, but many of them cannot be honest because of draconian laws.

 

[Scrapper]

Martin Berkhan is legend, the guy has presented mountains worth of data @ www.LeanGains.com promoting Intermittent Fasting & Fasted Training.

Likewise Victor Pride (bold and determined), Chris Deoudes (good looking loser), Mike Cernovich (danger and play) and our very own Roosh - have all been boasting about the endless benefits of Cold Showers for years.

You have not presented anything solid enough, aside from your own opinion, that would leave me to believe Fasted Training & Cold Showers are not extremely beneficial for improving body composition.

1 study revolving around 8 participants, that barely fills 1 paragraph worth of data and no caliper/body fat % testing of any sort?

If you want to pick and choose legends I can talk about real leading experts who have gone on to say that there is no upside to training fasted. Guys who have no skin in the game vs a guy who makes all his money on recommending fasting. Alan Aragon. Schoenfeld. Layne Norton. John Meadows, Chrisitian Thibodeau off the top of my head. IF has useful applications, fasted training does not.

I did say there was a benefit to cold immersion just not weight loss. It is a great recovery tool. For weight loss tho, pointless. The best studies done on brown fat when using cold immersion therapy had people lower their core temp for hours, 3 hours min per day in the case of one and the result was an extra 400ish cals per day. thats not a pound a week. How much do you think a cold shower for 5 minutes per day is going to do? Another had its participants in a cold respiration chamber all day and it burned roughly the same amount of cals. That isn't my opinion that is the studies...This is a case of the science showing something promising but having found no real practical application for it yet. Regarding pointing to non experts as your proof for cold immersion being an asset, I have no idea who 2 of them are don't visit their websites blogs but mikecf is a gym rat on trt, he's got reasons for being in shape, hard work not cold showers, wanna ask him how much of a difference cold water makes to his overall physique? ask him if he feels its the difference between somebody getting cut up or not, ask how much real weight he feels hes lost because of it. I dont care about anything else he feels on it, I said there were potential other benefits ask him specifically about how much hes lost because of his cold showers. I'll wait here for the answer. And no disrespect to Roosh, nothing but love but he's not in elite shape. Ive lived this life, Ive stepped on stage I train and prep with pros who are on stage today if theres an edge we'd be using it. I have zero reason to trash this beyond it simply doesn't work for weight loss. In the end its not hurting you so if somebody wants to try it, go ahead.

If you want to believe in fasted training so badly that this study doesn't sway you at all and leading experts don't phase you at all then what else can I say? You understand that is an abstract right? it was not a 1 paragraph study lol these studies aren't made so we can end discussions on message boards I wish I could hand you a 500 person study but we work with what we've got but the words are there for you to read, the experts tend to agree but if its working for you do your thing.

Mikeymike, I am a very reasonable logic-minded person and I have to admit you have put together a great case & some very strong arguments above against Fasted Training + Cold Immersion.

What is your opinion on Hot Showers being shown to temporarily disrupt sperm and testosterone production?
and Cold Showers being shown to temporarily increase testosterone and sperm production?

You have to understand, unlike most "elite" athletes, I am not on TRT or Anabolics year round.
If a Hot Shower can disrupt Testosterone production for an hour or two a day and a cold one can boost it.
That is a potential 730 to 1460 hours a year, my Testosterone Production is elevated versus disrupted.
Everything adds up over time - this has to account for a significant body composition change overtime for the natural weightlifter.
Although, I can not prove this theory, just assumptions.
Also, if improved recovery is 100% proven with Cold Immersion, than this will indirectly lead to significant beneficial body composition changes as well.
Increased recovery = more frequent training sessions and less injuries.

As for Fasted Training - I train first thing in the AM for 30 to 45 minutes. right after awakening.
Typically I have gone 9 to 10 hours without food by this time.
I have been doing this same routine for 17 months now and I am easily maintaining the lowest body fat % of my life.
I understand however that this as well, is 100% anecdotal.

Re: hot and cold showers affecting test levels, sperm production, motility etc. What I was saying regarding fat loss with cold showers also applies here, I just don't feel we are elevating temps long enough in either direction for test levels to be affected in a meaningfull way during a shower. If you were to soak for 10-15 minutes in an ice bath you might see some slight elevation of test levels. If you were the type to take long hot baths or hot tub soaks daily you could see a slight decrease but I don't believe a shower is going to allow you to see any measurable gains even over time.

Improved recovery is proven with cold immersion but it hasn't translated to improved gains, in fact it's been the opposite. Cold will help with inflammation but inflammation isn't necessarily bad it's just not comfortable. There have been a couple studies done on the effect of using cold immersion therapy long term and it's been showing to decrease strength and hypertrophy and thus less gains overall. For a bb'er/pl'er this is terrible for the professional athlete who has lactic acid build up and needs to be able to function at peak performance it is less of an issue.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1113/JP270570/abstract

I understand that you're getting results with your routine, my question is have you tried other variations, maybe starting the fast earlier the prior day and training fed. My gut says it's more likely to be the strict adherence to diet (lowcarb) and IF combined with the dedication to training that has been the driving force behind your results moreso than any significant results from fasted training. I think you may be able to get superior results from combining these elements with fed state training.

Your pushing me out of my comfort zone!
and for that I'll say thank you
I'll give it a shot brother, try shifting a couple AM workouts a week to PM workouts and see how it goes.
I appreciate you noticing my dedication - willpower & discipline are definitely my most finely honed attributes.
Probably I won't give up the cold showers though, call me sadistic & twisted if you want - I have grown to enjoy the raw "alertness" that lasts for a couple hours afterwards.
Hot showers make me drowsy.

 

[Nineteen84]

Clenbuterol is anti-health and poison. Avoid!

 

[mikeymike]

Martin Berkhan is legend, the guy has presented mountains worth of data @ www.LeanGains.com promoting Intermittent Fasting & Fasted Training.

Likewise Victor Pride (bold and determined), Chris Deoudes (good looking loser), Mike Cernovich (danger and play) and our very own Roosh - have all been boasting about the endless benefits of Cold Showers for years.

You have not presented anything solid enough, aside from your own opinion, that would leave me to believe Fasted Training & Cold Showers are not extremely beneficial for improving body composition.

1 study revolving around 8 participants, that barely fills 1 paragraph worth of data and no caliper/body fat % testing of any sort?

If you want to pick and choose legends I can talk about real leading experts who have gone on to say that there is no upside to training fasted. Guys who have no skin in the game vs a guy who makes all his money on recommending fasting. Alan Aragon. Schoenfeld. Layne Norton. John Meadows, Chrisitian Thibodeau off the top of my head. IF has useful applications, fasted training does not.

I did say there was a benefit to cold immersion just not weight loss. It is a great recovery tool. For weight loss tho, pointless. The best studies done on brown fat when using cold immersion therapy had people lower their core temp for hours, 3 hours min per day in the case of one and the result was an extra 400ish cals per day. thats not a pound a week. How much do you think a cold shower for 5 minutes per day is going to do? Another had its participants in a cold respiration chamber all day and it burned roughly the same amount of cals. That isn't my opinion that is the studies...This is a case of the science showing something promising but having found no real practical application for it yet. Regarding pointing to non experts as your proof for cold immersion being an asset, I have no idea who 2 of them are don't visit their websites blogs but mikecf is a gym rat on trt, he's got reasons for being in shape, hard work not cold showers, wanna ask him how much of a difference cold water makes to his overall physique? ask him if he feels its the difference between somebody getting cut up or not, ask how much real weight he feels hes lost because of it. I dont care about anything else he feels on it, I said there were potential other benefits ask him specifically about how much hes lost because of his cold showers. I'll wait here for the answer. And no disrespect to Roosh, nothing but love but he's not in elite shape. Ive lived this life, Ive stepped on stage I train and prep with pros who are on stage today if theres an edge we'd be using it. I have zero reason to trash this beyond it simply doesn't work for weight loss. In the end its not hurting you so if somebody wants to try it, go ahead.

If you want to believe in fasted training so badly that this study doesn't sway you at all and leading experts don't phase you at all then what else can I say? You understand that is an abstract right? it was not a 1 paragraph study lol these studies aren't made so we can end discussions on message boards I wish I could hand you a 500 person study but we work with what we've got but the words are there for you to read, the experts tend to agree but if its working for you do your thing.

Mikeymike, I am a very reasonable logic-minded person and I have to admit you have put together a great case & some very strong arguments above against Fasted Training + Cold Immersion.

What is your opinion on Hot Showers being shown to temporarily disrupt sperm and testosterone production?
and Cold Showers being shown to temporarily increase testosterone and sperm production?

You have to understand, unlike most "elite" athletes, I am not on TRT or Anabolics year round.
If a Hot Shower can disrupt Testosterone production for an hour or two a day and a cold one can boost it.
That is a potential 730 to 1460 hours a year, my Testosterone Production is elevated versus disrupted.
Everything adds up over time - this has to account for a significant body composition change overtime for the natural weightlifter.
Although, I can not prove this theory, just assumptions.
Also, if improved recovery is 100% proven with Cold Immersion, than this will indirectly lead to significant beneficial body composition changes as well.
Increased recovery = more frequent training sessions and less injuries.

As for Fasted Training - I train first thing in the AM for 30 to 45 minutes. right after awakening.
Typically I have gone 9 to 10 hours without food by this time.
I have been doing this same routine for 17 months now and I am easily maintaining the lowest body fat % of my life.
I understand however that this as well, is 100% anecdotal.

Re: hot and cold showers affecting test levels, sperm production, motility etc. What I was saying regarding fat loss with cold showers also applies here, I just don't feel we are elevating temps long enough in either direction for test levels to be affected in a meaningfull way during a shower. If you were to soak for 10-15 minutes in an ice bath you might see some slight elevation of test levels. If you were the type to take long hot baths or hot tub soaks daily you could see a slight decrease but I don't believe a shower is going to allow you to see any measurable gains even over time.

Improved recovery is proven with cold immersion but it hasn't translated to improved gains, in fact it's been the opposite. Cold will help with inflammation but inflammation isn't necessarily bad it's just not comfortable. There have been a couple studies done on the effect of using cold immersion therapy long term and it's been showing to decrease strength and hypertrophy and thus less gains overall. For a bb'er/pl'er this is terrible for the professional athlete who has lactic acid build up and needs to be able to function at peak performance it is less of an issue.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1113/JP270570/abstract

I understand that you're getting results with your routine, my question is have you tried other variations, maybe starting the fast earlier the prior day and training fed. My gut says it's more likely to be the strict adherence to diet (lowcarb) and IF combined with the dedication to training that has been the driving force behind your results moreso than any significant results from fasted training. I think you may be able to get superior results from combining these elements with fed state training.

Your pushing me out of my comfort zone!
and for that I'll say thank you
I'll give it a shot brother, try shifting a couple AM workouts a week to PM workouts and see how it goes.
I appreciate you noticing my dedication - willpower & discipline are definitely my most finely honed attributes.
Probably I won't give up the cold showers though, call me sadistic & twisted if you want - I have grown to enjoy the raw "alertness" that lasts for a couple hours afterwards.
Hot showers make me drowsy.

My pleasure, I will be very interested to hear how it goes, keep us updated!

And definitely, if you're finding benefit from the cold shower no reason to stop. There is no negative to a short shower so no harm done.

 

[Scrapper]

If you want to pick and choose legends I can talk about real leading experts who have gone on to say that there is no upside to training fasted. Guys who have no skin in the game vs a guy who makes all his money on recommending fasting. Alan Aragon. Schoenfeld. Layne Norton. John Meadows, Chrisitian Thibodeau off the top of my head. IF has useful applications, fasted training does not.

I did say there was a benefit to cold immersion just not weight loss. It is a great recovery tool. For weight loss tho, pointless. The best studies done on brown fat when using cold immersion therapy had people lower their core temp for hours, 3 hours min per day in the case of one and the result was an extra 400ish cals per day. thats not a pound a week. How much do you think a cold shower for 5 minutes per day is going to do? Another had its participants in a cold respiration chamber all day and it burned roughly the same amount of cals. That isn't my opinion that is the studies...This is a case of the science showing something promising but having found no real practical application for it yet. Regarding pointing to non experts as your proof for cold immersion being an asset, I have no idea who 2 of them are don't visit their websites blogs but mikecf is a gym rat on trt, he's got reasons for being in shape, hard work not cold showers, wanna ask him how much of a difference cold water makes to his overall physique? ask him if he feels its the difference between somebody getting cut up or not, ask how much real weight he feels hes lost because of it. I dont care about anything else he feels on it, I said there were potential other benefits ask him specifically about how much hes lost because of his cold showers. I'll wait here for the answer. And no disrespect to Roosh, nothing but love but he's not in elite shape. Ive lived this life, Ive stepped on stage I train and prep with pros who are on stage today if theres an edge we'd be using it. I have zero reason to trash this beyond it simply doesn't work for weight loss. In the end its not hurting you so if somebody wants to try it, go ahead.

If you want to believe in fasted training so badly that this study doesn't sway you at all and leading experts don't phase you at all then what else can I say? You understand that is an abstract right? it was not a 1 paragraph study lol these studies aren't made so we can end discussions on message boards I wish I could hand you a 500 person study but we work with what we've got but the words are there for you to read, the experts tend to agree but if its working for you do your thing.

Mikeymike, I am a very reasonable logic-minded person and I have to admit you have put together a great case & some very strong arguments above against Fasted Training + Cold Immersion.

What is your opinion on Hot Showers being shown to temporarily disrupt sperm and testosterone production?
and Cold Showers being shown to temporarily increase testosterone and sperm production?

You have to understand, unlike most "elite" athletes, I am not on TRT or Anabolics year round.
If a Hot Shower can disrupt Testosterone production for an hour or two a day and a cold one can boost it.
That is a potential 730 to 1460 hours a year, my Testosterone Production is elevated versus disrupted.
Everything adds up over time - this has to account for a significant body composition change overtime for the natural weightlifter.
Although, I can not prove this theory, just assumptions.
Also, if improved recovery is 100% proven with Cold Immersion, than this will indirectly lead to significant beneficial body composition changes as well.
Increased recovery = more frequent training sessions and less injuries.

As for Fasted Training - I train first thing in the AM for 30 to 45 minutes. right after awakening.
Typically I have gone 9 to 10 hours without food by this time.
I have been doing this same routine for 17 months now and I am easily maintaining the lowest body fat % of my life.
I understand however that this as well, is 100% anecdotal.

Re: hot and cold showers affecting test levels, sperm production, motility etc. What I was saying regarding fat loss with cold showers also applies here, I just don't feel we are elevating temps long enough in either direction for test levels to be affected in a meaningfull way during a shower. If you were to soak for 10-15 minutes in an ice bath you might see some slight elevation of test levels. If you were the type to take long hot baths or hot tub soaks daily you could see a slight decrease but I don't believe a shower is going to allow you to see any measurable gains even over time.

Improved recovery is proven with cold immersion but it hasn't translated to improved gains, in fact it's been the opposite. Cold will help with inflammation but inflammation isn't necessarily bad it's just not comfortable. There have been a couple studies done on the effect of using cold immersion therapy long term and it's been showing to decrease strength and hypertrophy and thus less gains overall. For a bb'er/pl'er this is terrible for the professional athlete who has lactic acid build up and needs to be able to function at peak performance it is less of an issue.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1113/JP270570/abstract

I understand that you're getting results with your routine, my question is have you tried other variations, maybe starting the fast earlier the prior day and training fed. My gut says it's more likely to be the strict adherence to diet (lowcarb) and IF combined with the dedication to training that has been the driving force behind your results moreso than any significant results from fasted training. I think you may be able to get superior results from combining these elements with fed state training.

Your pushing me out of my comfort zone!
and for that I'll say thank you
I'll give it a shot brother, try shifting a couple AM workouts a week to PM workouts and see how it goes.
I appreciate you noticing my dedication - willpower & discipline are definitely my most finely honed attributes.
Probably I won't give up the cold showers though, call me sadistic & twisted if you want - I have grown to enjoy the raw "alertness" that lasts for a couple hours afterwards.
Hot showers make me drowsy.

My pleasure, I will be very interested to hear how it goes, keep us updated!

And definitely, if you're finding benefit from the cold shower no reason to stop. There is no negative to a short shower so no harm done.

Yo Mikeymike!
While I have your attention, whats your opinion on training to failure?

Some of my favorite movements are bodyweight training to failure, things like push-ups, variations on planks, pull-ups, dips, knee-ups etc...
Occasionally I will do lightweight dumbbell/barbell movements to failure too.

I've noticed majorly increased vascularity from this type of training, although I also notice a lot of soreness the next day - preventing me from exercising that muscle group again for awhile.

Not sure if these methods are good for muscle/strength development or purely just for endurance/vascularity?

 

[Anabasis to Desta]

Cortes taking DNP at 16 years old is the most shocking thing I've ever read on this forum.

Got goosebumps on my forearms right now.

 

[Fortis]

I'm not sure why dudes do crazy shit like that. Unless you're a certified pro, I don't see the point in taking risks like that. The more variables you add to the equation of your life the more chances you have to fuck things up.

 

[Sidney Crosby]

If clenbuterol is so dangerous why would people use it over something like tren?

 

[Nineteen84]

If clenbuterol is so dangerous why would people use it over something like tren?

I thought people often used them together for 'superior' effect?

Clen is short for Clenbuterol which is an powerful bronchodilator designed originally for asthma patients but its commonly used in the bodybuilding community to burn fat quickly. Tren is short for Trenbolone which is a steroid used on livestock to increase muscle growth and appetite. Used illicitly by bodybuilders retain or gain mass, some users in Trenbolone forums report fat loss as well.

 

[Requiem]

^Exactly. Also, just because one of these is dangerous doesn't mean the other one is harmless, does it? Tren has very shitty side effects.

 

[Nineteen84]

...if you want a heart attack

 

[zatara]

Tren is a steroid generally used for building mass, Clen is used for fat burning. They do two very different things, you wouldn't use one over the other.

 

[mikeymike]

Mikeymike, I am a very reasonable logic-minded person and I have to admit you have put together a great case & some very strong arguments above against Fasted Training + Cold Immersion.

What is your opinion on Hot Showers being shown to temporarily disrupt sperm and testosterone production?
and Cold Showers being shown to temporarily increase testosterone and sperm production?

You have to understand, unlike most "elite" athletes, I am not on TRT or Anabolics year round.
If a Hot Shower can disrupt Testosterone production for an hour or two a day and a cold one can boost it.
That is a potential 730 to 1460 hours a year, my Testosterone Production is elevated versus disrupted.
Everything adds up over time - this has to account for a significant body composition change overtime for the natural weightlifter.
Although, I can not prove this theory, just assumptions.
Also, if improved recovery is 100% proven with Cold Immersion, than this will indirectly lead to significant beneficial body composition changes as well.
Increased recovery = more frequent training sessions and less injuries.

As for Fasted Training - I train first thing in the AM for 30 to 45 minutes. right after awakening.
Typically I have gone 9 to 10 hours without food by this time.
I have been doing this same routine for 17 months now and I am easily maintaining the lowest body fat % of my life.
I understand however that this as well, is 100% anecdotal.

Re: hot and cold showers affecting test levels, sperm production, motility etc. What I was saying regarding fat loss with cold showers also applies here, I just don't feel we are elevating temps long enough in either direction for test levels to be affected in a meaningfull way during a shower. If you were to soak for 10-15 minutes in an ice bath you might see some slight elevation of test levels. If you were the type to take long hot baths or hot tub soaks daily you could see a slight decrease but I don't believe a shower is going to allow you to see any measurable gains even over time.

Improved recovery is proven with cold immersion but it hasn't translated to improved gains, in fact it's been the opposite. Cold will help with inflammation but inflammation isn't necessarily bad it's just not comfortable. There have been a couple studies done on the effect of using cold immersion therapy long term and it's been showing to decrease strength and hypertrophy and thus less gains overall. For a bb'er/pl'er this is terrible for the professional athlete who has lactic acid build up and needs to be able to function at peak performance it is less of an issue.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1113/JP270570/abstract

I understand that you're getting results with your routine, my question is have you tried other variations, maybe starting the fast earlier the prior day and training fed. My gut says it's more likely to be the strict adherence to diet (lowcarb) and IF combined with the dedication to training that has been the driving force behind your results moreso than any significant results from fasted training. I think you may be able to get superior results from combining these elements with fed state training.

Your pushing me out of my comfort zone!
and for that I'll say thank you
I'll give it a shot brother, try shifting a couple AM workouts a week to PM workouts and see how it goes.
I appreciate you noticing my dedication - willpower & discipline are definitely my most finely honed attributes.
Probably I won't give up the cold showers though, call me sadistic & twisted if you want - I have grown to enjoy the raw "alertness" that lasts for a couple hours afterwards.
Hot showers make me drowsy.

My pleasure, I will be very interested to hear how it goes, keep us updated!

And definitely, if you're finding benefit from the cold shower no reason to stop. There is no negative to a short shower so no harm done.

Yo Mikeymike!
While I have your attention, whats your opinion on training to failure?

Some of my favorite movements are bodyweight training to failure, things like push-ups, variations on planks, pull-ups, dips, knee-ups etc...
Occasionally I will do lightweight dumbbell/barbell movements to failure too.

I've noticed majorly increased vascularity from this type of training, although I also notice a lot of soreness the next day - preventing me from exercising that muscle group again for awhile.

Not sure if these methods are good for muscle/strength development or purely just for endurance/vascularity?

Training to failure can be a valuable tool in your development but it depends on how one applies it and how often. You mentioned the exercises you like to go to failure on but did not mention what the rep ranges are to hit failure. For best results we want to work thru a variety of rep ranges (2-15 reps) to get both strength and hypertrophy results. If you're doing an exercise and you're blasting out 50+ reps, while it may lead to some nasty doms and a vicious pump that day, long term that isn't going to translate into any real strength and muscle gains. On the flipside, going ultraheavy and going to fail every working set every workout is a surefire way to burn out your cns and see strength regression and limit your progress. You can get amazing results and never go to failure as long as you continue to overload but you can continue to overload while applying some training to failure. There can be overlap between the 2 but between the 2 overload is of primary importance so you have to find a way to add failure training in, in a way that doesn't affect your ability to keep increasing weights/intensity. If you are getting over 15 reps while training to failure, you're not lifting heavy enough. If you want to throw in a superlight ultra high rep exercise once in a blue moon to throw something new at a muscle it can be of some benefit but it can't be a regular part of a training program if you want to maximize results. If you've decided to take a set to failure on a particular exercise make sure the weight is heavy enough that it allows you to achieve a goal, either hypertrophy or strength, higher 12-15 for hypertrophy and 2-6 for strength so pick a weight that youd fail near the goal. There is little benefit to muscle and strength goals to endlessly rep out (16+ reps) light weights on a regular basis.