Completely clueless in how to attract a woman

DanielH

Ostrich
Moderator
Orthodox
The bottom 50% of men will never get a woman.
This is a ridiculous and blackpilling statement, and no it's not the truth, especially not without a qualifying statement. You could say the majority of men will not get that young tradwife who submits, and as a result you will have a quarrelsome relationship. You can also say men will end up having 30+ year old women settle with them due to the brainwashed nature of women only reacting to nature at the very last moment.

I'm well under 33 and met a wonderful Christian woman who is actually on this forum, married her, and had a son with her all in just over 3 years. You're right, it is difficult to do this now, that's why credit must go to God. People who have this blackpilled mindset are off-putting to women, and often view women as nothing special, as if any woman will do. They hate that, they want to feel unique. If you treat them like a checkbox, just a life milestone, something to get over with and move on, that is not a path to happiness.

One factor that will push more women to humble themselves and submit to men is the coming economic hardships of this decade but that is better discussed elsewhere, suffice it to say, young single men who learn a blue collar skill or trade will be in a great position a few years down the line.

We also should look at what worked in the past, what enabled men prior to the 1960s to get good wives? That is something to think about. Most of the answers are things single men can still do.
 

It_is_my_time

Crow
Protestant
I'm just telling the blackpilled truth. That's not a "mindset", it's just the objective reality. The bottom 50% of men will never get a woman. I prefer giving them the brutal ugly truth rather than pretty lies and false hope. Guys younger than 33 will understand what I'm saying. Older guys came of age in a totally different world, they can't relate with younger guys (they're becoming the new boomers). I don't expect everyone here to agree with me.
I understand where you are coming from, women's expectations are higher than ever before and men are put at a greater disadvantage that ever before. It is really tough out there. My only advice is to not give up. I'm not going to blow sunshine your way and pretend it will be just a week or two until a good woman falls into your lap.

The truth is that it has never been easy for men. A few generations ago men were lined up and marched into gun fire and if you survived then after the war you could have a wife. 25 years ago the women were better but there was no online game to use as a shortcut. So you learned the hard way or sat on the sidelines and watched. I sat on the sidelines and watched. I tried everything I could think of or the TV told me and none of it worked. If I had online game 25 years ago I would have been fine, but it didn't exist.

In this day and age the new challenge is getting a woman to decide you are worth more than her career and social media likes. Not an easy task at all.

But if you were born in a western nation, and you have your health about you, then you already have everything you need genetically. I see short guys with beautiful women. I see fat guys with beautiful women. What do those guys have? They came upon success or they were born into money. If they were born into money, it will likely crash down on them, they didn't grow through struggle, which is the only way we grow. If they came upon success, then they were able to find themselves and make themselves and attractive man. Or maybe they are beta bucks provider, hate their career jobs to pay for these women, and they are miserable deep down. I don't know, what I have learned is there is always more to the story.

So that is why my advice is to find yourself first. Build your dream world and then add a woman to it. Unless you think you will be happy as a work oxen, going into a gray office and your entire paycheck spent to keep your woman happy, then you will have to find your own path. That is what I have been working on for over 2 decades. I know it sounds "awful" that it has taken me this long, but that is just how it was for me. And now I am on the mountain top and look back at the struggle, I realized how blessed I was for it.

You either face the struggle and fight or you surrender to it and lose. And only you can make that decision. And unfairly the struggle is greater for some than others, but those who struggle the most and come out on top end up in a much better position. It is a blessing in disguise.
 

Renzy

Pelican
Catholic
Does anyone have any advice on how to attract a specific woman? I tried looking into Roosh's earlier works, but they were mostly for hooking up with women in general, and I'm looking more for a long term relationship. How do I get this girl to notice and like me?
To be honest I don't have a lot going for me. I'm kind of ugly and not exceptionally funny, plus I don't see her that often (we sit nearby in two classes and that's it). I'm also pretty much socially retarded.
Does anyone have anything that can help me out? Any tricks to stand out from the crowd, make myself desirable, or get closer to a specific person without coming off as weird? For context I am a young teenage guy who's still in high school.

Not to sound too pathetic but the romantic loneliness is eating me up inside and I'm completely touch starved. I feel like this is someone I need so any help is appreciated :zipped:

You've already gotten a bunch of good advice so I'll throw my $.02 in as well...

- Go to the gym. Lifting will help you feel better mentally and physically and improve your confidence.

- Public speaking. I'm not sure what your high school offers in terms of clubs, but if you can find something like Toastmasters (public speaking group) it will help you get over your social anxiety. Assuming your school has a drama department that might be something worth looking into if you feel up for it.

- Small talk. Try to get in the habit of making small talk with the people around you in your day to day life. Make friendly chatter with the lady at the checkout, your waiter when you go out to eat, people you come across in your day to day life. It will help you get out of your shell.

- Dancing. I don't know if this is an option right now with the lingering covid restrictions, but look around your local area for salsa dancing / swing dancing / etc. lessons and join up. It will help you get more comfortable interacting with girls in a low pressure environment. Plus, dancing is something most guys tend to shy away from so if you get good it it's any easy way to stand out.

- Church. If your family attends church see if there's any volunteer opportunities for someone your age to get involved in.

- Oneitis: Try not to get to wrapped up in the idea that this girl is "the one" where you'll be crushed if it doesn't pan out.
 

It_is_my_time

Crow
Protestant
You've already gotten a bunch of good advice so I'll throw my $.02 in as well...

- Go to the gym. Lifting will help you feel better mentally and physically and improve your confidence.

- Public speaking. I'm not sure what your high school offers in terms of clubs, but if you can find something like Toastmasters (public speaking group) it will help you get over your social anxiety. Assuming your school has a drama department that might be something worth looking into if you feel up for it.

- Small talk. Try to get in the habit of making small talk with the people around you in your day to day life. Make friendly chatter with the lady at the checkout, your waiter when you go out to eat, people you come across in your day to day life. It will help you get out of your shell.

- Dancing. I don't know if this is an option right now with the lingering covid restrictions, but look around your local area for salsa dancing / swing dancing / etc. lessons and join up. It will help you get more comfortable interacting with girls in a low pressure environment. Plus, dancing is something most guys tend to shy away from so if you get good it it's any easy way to stand out.

- Church. If your family attends church see if there's any volunteer opportunities for someone your age to get involved in.

- Oneitis: Try not to get to wrapped up in the idea that this girl is "the one" where you'll be crushed if it doesn't pan out.
Great list and post. My bolded a great one I never even considered.

If you are out in public and you can feel/tell the other person either wants to talk or is open to talking, then just make some very common comment about the weather or some other situation you are both facing. It really improves your ability to conversate. If you have to, start with me only. You will get a good feel for it. The move on to older women, they are much more receptive and kind. Once you realize older women are like younger women, except they are more receptive, then you are good to go.

Women really appreciate small talk, even if it leads no where. They are emotional beings and that connection is really a spark to them. I have done this so many times and within a few seconds I can tell the woman is interested and then stops herself and will say "well by boyfriend...". I don't bat and eye and I keep the talk polite, lighthearted and on the topic. They really enjoy it and then eventually something will excuse one of you two and you go about your way.

I'm amazed at how many times I am making small talk with a woman, just enjoying the moment, certainly NOT looking for her phone number or anything more than that small talk, and she either mentions her boyfriend "meaning she is feeling it and wants to make sure I don't feel it too" OR she will even make a comment about "how lucky my girlfriend is". Women LOVE small talk, especially things like the weather or a current situation, where you make a "we are in the same boat" connection.
 

Solitarius

Robin
Catholic
- Dancing. I don't know if this is an option right now with the lingering covid restrictions, but look around your local area for salsa dancing / swing dancing / etc. lessons and join up. It will help you get more comfortable interacting with girls in a low pressure environment. Plus, dancing is something most guys tend to shy away from so if you get good it it's any easy way to stand out.
Dancing is a snare of the evil one, consider the words of several Saints in regard to it:
The Saints and dances

St. Charles Borromeo says that the dance “is a circle whose center is the Devil and his cohorts constitute the circumference, since very rarely or almost never does one dance without sin.”

St. Frances de Sales, well-known for his goodness and suavity, states: “Because of the circumstances surrounding dances, it is so propitious to evil that souls run the greatest risks at them. Balls, dances and similar nighttime gatherings ordinarily attract the vices and sins of that region: complaints, envy, jeers and infatuations of heart. Just as the exercise of dance opens the pores of the body, so also it opens the pores of the heart. For this reason, if some serpent comes to inspire words of lust or flattery to be whispered in one’s ear, or if some lizard approaches darting impure and amorous looks, hearts are most disposed to let themselves be contaminated and polluted.”

St. Frances also counsels "Philothea" [a faithful soul]: “The doctors say that the best mushrooms have no value; I say the same to you about balls, the best are not absolutely good.”

Persons who judge dances as compatible with the life of Christian perfection should meditate often on the considerations of the Holy Doctor (Philothea or Introduction to the Devout Life, III, 32, 33).

In the life of the Holy Cure of Ars, St. John Marie Vianney, one notes how strongly he condemns the dangerous diversion of dances. He said: “The dance is the means the Devil uses to destroy the innocence of at least three-quarters of our youth. How many girls - because of dances - lost their reputation, their Heaven and their God!”

St. Anthony Marie Claret, who in the pulpit and his writing fought hard to stop the balls in Spain, in his book The Basket of Moses affirmed, “The Devil invented balls for girls to be lost, and extended them throughout the world like an immense net in order to catch the young people and submit them to his tyrannical domination.”

He added, “The goddess Venus was the model of charms and the mother of carnal pleasures, and, for this reason, the pagan girls, in their idolatrous fanaticism, believed that the best way to honor the impure goddess was to offer before her altar every type of impure frivolity. … The truth is that dances are of pagan origin - and as for those practiced today - only the Devil could have invented them for the corruption of youth. In the first three centuries of our era, the persecutions and the opposition of the Church to all things that came from Paganism were obstacles against the use of the balls among the faithful. But after the fourth century, little by little they were introduced among Christians and immediately the Ecclesiastical Authority came to prohibit them.”

A means of ‘decent’ corruption

Fr. Felix de Sardá y Salvany in his great work Entertainment and Morals wrote, “In his eagerness to make the youth his, the Devil invented a multitude of nooses and ways to corrupt them: Impious magazines, obscene theater shows, the emotions of gambling, the impure tavern, the casino or the cabaret - which is no more than a tavern in which people wear clean shirts. There was not, thank God, a place for the systematic corruption of women. …

“What was lacking, therefore, was a ‘decent’ means of corruption. A means of corruption that would wipe modesty from the face, reserve from the gaze and purity from the heart - which are the most precious feminine qualities, the best adornments of the Christian damsel. This had to be done without staining the good name of the one to be seduced, without disturbing her conscience with remorse, without embarrassing her honest mother, but rather filling her with complacence and maternal pride. It was difficult to come up with an invention that could attain all these, at first glance, contradictions. Nonetheless, the Devil found one. It was the dance hall.”
 

Lawrence87

Kingfisher
Orthodox
I'm just telling the blackpilled truth. That's not a "mindset", it's just the objective reality. The bottom 50% of men will never get a woman. I prefer giving them the brutal ugly truth rather than pretty lies and false hope. Guys younger than 33 will understand what I'm saying. Older guys came of age in a totally different world, they can't relate with younger guys (they're becoming the new boomers). I don't expect everyone here to agree with me.
Being tall and handsome is an advantage for sure. But that is not to say someone without good looks and height is without a chance. There are plenty of women who are themselves not able to attract a tall handsome guy who has better options. If you're ugly and short you can just have lower expectations as to the woman you are liable to attract.

There are plenty of average and ugly looking happy couples out there. Not everyone is entitled to a super model wife, if you can accept that then you don't have to condemn yourself to loneliness.
 

Jive Turkey

Kingfisher
Orthodox Catechumen
@Solitarius

That is a good point to be taken with caution, however what most of the warnings seem to be about is dance events, balls etc. They were maybe the nightclubs of their day. So I think we must discern between taking dance lessons and dancing at clubs for impure reasons. I think a similar logical fallacy would be to say OP shouldn't listen to music because priests have condemned rap or heavy metal. But I may be wrong about this. Does the Orthodox church have a position on dancing in general?
 

The Prime Minister

 
Banned
Orthodox
Being tall and handsome is an advantage for sure. But that is not to say someone without good looks and height is without a chance. There are plenty of women who are themselves not able to attract a tall handsome guy who has better options. If you're ugly and short you can just have lower expectations as to the woman you are liable to attract.

There are plenty of average and ugly looking happy couples out there. Not everyone is entitled to a super model wife, if you can accept that then you don't have to condemn yourself to loneliness.
It's actually the other way around. Most men are willing to settle with a woman who is ugly or average looking. But most women are hypergamous so they won't settle for a man at the same looks level as them. Except for extreme circumstances of wanting a betabuxx husband.

Basically it's not men that want supermodel looking wives. It's actually women who want supermodel looking men. The data shows that 90-95% of all women are attracted to and want the top 5-10% of men (the men who are good looking and tall).

It's the women who need to lower their expectations. But instead the opposite happened, their expectations are now extremely high.
 

007

Pigeon
Dude stop blackpilling the kid. It's not that bad

You're spilling half truths and gonna make him suicidal before he has ever held hands with a girl, bringing with him all the second hand baggage and trauma of reading the manosphere. How is this any different from feminist mothers teaching their daughters all men are rapists?
How is this blackpill?
 

skeptic

 
Banned
Catholic
I'm going to actually drop a white pill here.

I saw data from a study about a decade ago about sexual partners in the US, and it was far more positive than you would think.
The vast majority of those surveyed (men and women) had 3 partners or less. A significant number (around 20% I believe?) had either 1 or 2 partners. 2 partners could mean they tried something once as a young person, realized it was a mistake, and never did it again until married.

Then there were relatively low percentages of anywhere from 2-10 partners, and then a higher number (maybe 15-20%) with 10+ partners. Meaning that it's mostly a lot of out of control people having lots of casual sex all the time, while the bulk of the country was still somewhat normal, and most people were either virgins or slept with one ex boyfriend.

Now, I would probably be saddened to see the updated data for today, which I am sure has been in the wrong direction, but still...

The Science! tells us that there are still decent odds out there in terms of finding a young, fertile, unspoiled bride.

Average first marriage for a woman is at 27, which is lower than I thought, and remember average means half are below that.

Of course the trend for both of these is heavily in the wrong direction, so I would be very black pilled for my children or grandchildren, but for us, it's still possible.

This is from 1994, when the world was still sane, but 1/4 of all married women had only their husband as a sexual partner. And it looks like only around 10% of those who married had over 10 partners (I would have thought in degenerate USA that would be way higher). Yes I'm cherry picking a bit, since the data will be worse today, plus I think married people are now in the minority, but if you are looking to marry, look at the data for married people only, as that's your target market. About 60% of them had 1-4 partners their entire life.

Sex+in+America+Social+Influences+on+Sexual+Behavior.jpg
Great post. Also in my case, my ex-gf lied to me about her sexual past, she made up sexual experiences to impress me. She was embarrassed of having only been with one man but she later confessed to me that she simply can’t have sex without emotions. Of course there’s a reason we broke up but I’ve talked to her recently and she’s been with less than 10 men, sure she’s not ideal but this girl is not a Christian, just your typical girl.

So there’s still decent girls who are stained just like we are but still decent, the question to me now is, is there decent guys? And this doesn’t just involve men believing in God, I mean it in every sense, that is, just as men demand certain things from women, are there enough men who meet the demand ser by women? That is they are social, charismatic, decently attractive/fit, financially able to provide, with good morals, etc. I would say no, tons of men are simply undatable which explains why women are staying alone. Men retreat into loneliness with video games, forums, pornography, junk food and drugs. And women… well they’re starting to copy men but they don’t seem to have the ability to analyze their situation and explain it to us men, just like women were unable to write their experience giving birth before a man tried to explain it or explain their psychology before men tried to dissect it. But in my opinion their situation is different but just as bad because ultimately they’re ending up alone. Perhaps they are just better at coping with it though.
 

skeptic

 
Banned
Catholic
I
It's actually the other way around. Most men are willing to settle with a woman who is ugly or average looking. But most women are hypergamous so they won't settle for a man at the same looks level as them. Except for extreme circumstances of wanting a betabuxx husband.

Basically it's not men that want supermodel looking wives. It's actually women who want supermodel looking men. The data shows that 90-95% of all women are attracted to and want the top 5-10% of men (the men who are good looking and tall).

It's the women who need to lower their expectations. But instead the opposite happened, their expectations are now extremely high.

I think both men and women have a certain threshold at which they will not lower their standards. I think there’s simply way more women meeting those standards than men. If men were more attractive I bet “hypergamy would be less.” Because ultimately it is completely normal for women to expect a normal weight man with full head of hair and normal socialization skills. What is not normal is that every other man is now balding, overweight and anti social. That men look like this is clearly the effect of industrial society with vaccines, junk food and cubicles but again in a normal world there would be many more attractive men and “hypergamy” would be nonexistent.

Perhaps this also explains why only the top 20% of people in both genders are having too many partners, perhaps it’s the most attractive ones because no one wants the uglies, not even other uglies. Being ugly is simply not natural.
 
I


I think both men and women have a certain threshold at which they will not lower their standards. I think there’s simply way more women meeting those standards than men. If men were more attractive I bet “hypergamy would be less.” Because ultimately it is completely normal for women to expect a normal weight man with full head of hair and normal socialization skills. What is not normal is that every other man is now balding, overweight and anti social. That men look like this is clearly the effect of industrial society with vaccines, junk food and cubicles but again in a normal world there would be many more attractive men and “hypergamy” would be nonexistent.

Perhaps this also explains why only the top 20% of people in both genders are having too many partners, perhaps it’s the most attractive ones because no one wants the uglies, not even other uglies. Being ugly is simply not natural.
The standards of women have absolutely raised, not just because of unrestrained hypergamy, but a mix of social media making the mate selection easier combined with desperate men inflating their value. What's considered ugly today was average 20 years ago in terms of male looks, there are plenty of young guys out there who on a surface would be decent looking enough for quality woman, but the best they can get is a landwhale or a tranny. Some things considered ugly are sadly immutable such as height or face, and these are standards a lot of guys can't live up to.
 
Also for OP, if you're not fat and women are still not drawn to you, then I would just suggest focusing on your career, hobbies, self improvement, and faith. Accept the grim reality that in our modern environment where women just chose based on sex and attraction, you may not find anyone if you're looking for a traditional marriage, that is unless you're willing to save up to move somewhere where the environment encourages those values.
 

skeptic

 
Banned
Catholic
The standards of women have absolutely raised, not just because of unrestrained hypergamy, but a mix of social media making the mate selection easier combined with desperate men inflating their value. What's considered ugly today was average 20 years ago in terms of male looks, there are plenty of young guys out there who on a surface would be decent looking enough for quality woman, but the best they can get is a landwhale or a tranny. Some things considered ugly are sadly immutable such as height or face, and these are standards a lot of guys can't live up to.
Height and face are mutable though, it’s the poor diet and lack of physical activities that lead to an explosion of ugly people. Just compare European men to white American men, Europeans look better yet they’re the same race, it’s clearly diet and environment. I agree that women’s standards are too high for what’s available though, they have to accept to date the collection of deformed beings that are American men
 
Height and face are mutable though, it’s the poor diet and lack of physical activities that lead to an explosion of ugly people. Just compare European men to white American men, Europeans look better yet they’re the same race, it’s clearly diet and environment. I agree that women’s standards are too high for what’s available though, they have to accept to date the collection of deformed beings that are American men
Face can only be fixed via surgery which is not an option for everyone, and height cant be increased, just look at the testimonies of short guys across the manosphere or incel boards, they put in the work at the gym but only get attention from landwhales and sodomites. The dating and marriage rates also suck in europe as well, its not just tied to obesity, heck japan has the herbivore crisis and men there are overwhelmingly thin.

In societies where the government provides resources and protection to women, the only value men have left is sex appeal which sadly most of them don't have no matter how hard they might try to attain it. This is what leads to the rises of simps and porn consumption.
 

Yeagerist

Woodpecker
Orthodox Catechumen
Height and face are mutable though, it’s the poor diet and lack of physical activities that lead to an explosion of ugly people. Just compare European men to white American men, Europeans look better yet they’re the same race, it’s clearly diet and environment. I agree that women’s standards are too high for what’s available though, they have to accept to date the collection of deformed beings that are American men
I could say the same on how Eastern European women are pedestalized by Western right-winger guys as having the best of both worlds (looks & attitude), when such women are only seen as average in their own societies. It's not some magical Slavic supermodel DNA but rather that EE women haven't been ruined by the 3 Fs: feminism, fast food and fat acceptance.

The standards of women have absolutely raised, not just because of unrestrained hypergamy, but a mix of social media making the mate selection easier combined with desperate men inflating their value. What's considered ugly today was average 20 years ago in terms of male looks, there are plenty of young guys out there who on a surface would be decent looking enough for quality woman, but the best they can get is a landwhale or a tranny. Some things considered ugly are sadly immutable such as height or face, and these are standards a lot of guys can't live up to.
It's a mutually destructive feedback loop: Western men have generally been reduced to simps and coomers while the unwarranted validation they give to wenches inflate the latter's value all the more and reinforce their hypergamy status.

If the majority of young women in Anglophone countries ditch the 3 Fs I'm talking about, and if their male counterparts stop p0rn/OnlyWhat and work on improving their lives...there would simply be no need to worry about hypergamy or the sexual marketplace or any mindset of cutthroat competition.
 

SaintPiusX

Robin
Trad Catholic
I'm just telling the blackpilled truth. That's not a "mindset", it's just the objective reality. The bottom 50% of men will never get a woman. I prefer giving them the brutal ugly truth rather than pretty lies and false hope. Guys younger than 33 will understand what I'm saying. Older guys came of age in a totally different world, they can't relate with younger guys (they're becoming the new boomers). I don't expect everyone here to agree with me.
Height is the biggest predictor of success with woman. There's been studies that show how much additional money a shorter man must make to attract a woman versus a taller man. Additionally, there's been studies showing that about 10 inches is the height difference between a man and a woman that would lead them to get together. Now, a shorter white man can bend these rules because some women from other cultures who want white genes will settle on height and wealth. However, once you incorporate these three variables (height, wealth, and white genes), the predictability of how many and what type of woman a men can attract is very, very easy to predict.
 

skeptic

 
Banned
Catholic
Face can only be fixed via surgery which is not an option for everyone, and height cant be increased, just look at the testimonies of short guys across the manosphere or incel boards, they put in the work at the gym but only get attention from landwhales and sodomites. The dating and marriage rates also suck in europe as well, its not just tied to obesity, heck japan has the herbivore crisis and men there are overwhelmingly thin.

In societies where the government provides resources and protection to women, the only value men have left is sex appeal which sadly most of them don't have no matter how hard they might try to attain it. This is what leads to the rises of simps and porn consumption.
Again, if you developed properly your face would have developed fine. Not sure why you’re mentioning surgery, obviously if you’ve already finished development your only option is surgery. Yes I’m talking about things out of your control, food you were feed as a child and activities you are were put in but my point is that in a sane society with sane parents, people would develop fine. Looks based hypergamy would be nearly none existent if everyone was good looking which I believe is the natural state of man in an uncorrupted world.

@Yeagerist post above is on point to what I mean and I agree with you about the 3 Fs.
 

Stoyan

 
Banned
Orthodox
How can a man determine that he is ready for a relationship?

What would be the list of characteristics that a man should have as a prerequisite to a relationship?
 
Again, if you developed properly your face would have developed fine. Not sure why you’re mentioning surgery, obviously if you’ve already finished development your only option is surgery. Yes I’m talking about things out of your control, food you were feed as a child and activities you are were put in but my point is that in a sane society with sane parents, people would develop fine. Looks based hypergamy would be nearly none existent if everyone was good looking which I believe is the natural state of man in an uncorrupted world.

@Yeagerist post above is on point to what I mean and I agree with you about the 3 Fs.
and thats the problem, we live in a looks based hypergamy and its far from an even playing field for men. The only way to fix things is either through societal collapse or some serious reforms.
 
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