Copyediting as a Location Independent Career

[maestrobaires]

http://www.tropicalmba.com/be-your-own-boss-do-it-from-anywhere-and-make-a-lot-of-money/

writing could be very lucrative! so if you are not a STEM type, go for the languages! writing, translation, editing, ... they all pay well, are location independent and need for those skills is growing!

 

[AroundtheWorldin80Jobs]

Just wanted to mention to you guys that if you check Writer's Digest, $25 per hour is the bottom dollar rate for copyediting. I believe they put the market average at around $50 and highs up to $175 - I recommend picking up a copy if you're going to run any kind of writing-related business.

Of course it depends on the type of copyediting as well, since rates vary.

Not bashing on you at all. I just wanted to point out that if you learn to market yourself better and target the right clients, there is quite a bit of potential out there.

I think it really depends what kind you are doing and who are your clients. I mean if you are hooked up with a company and a contract that is one thing and your rates can go pretty high. But to get to that point you need to have a portfolio or have an in with that company which can take a long time. If you are looking at elance or a google search, you are looking at companies or people that are offering English editing services down to like 10 an hour. I am not saying that writers digest is off the mark ( I would say you can get that), I just would say it depends who you can get as a client. Furthermore, in terms of marketing yourself, I think the previous poster was right about just working your way up with clients and referrals, otherwise you are going to be marketing yourself in a herd (google english editing services). I get what you are saying, but it is easy to say oh yeah just go market yourself - that takes a lot of time and dedication to do in and of itself if you aren't really in it to win it (meaning loving to edit papers all day). Not saying that you aren't right about the rates, but I do question the ease at which people make something sound.

 

[Beyond Borders]

Just wanted to mention to you guys that if you check Writer's Digest, $25 per hour is the bottom dollar rate for copyediting. I believe they put the market average at around $50 and highs up to $175 - I recommend picking up a copy if you're going to run any kind of writing-related business.

Of course it depends on the type of copyediting as well, since rates vary.

Not bashing on you at all. I just wanted to point out that if you learn to market yourself better and target the right clients, there is quite a bit of potential out there.

I think it really depends what kind you are doing and who are your clients. I mean if you are hooked up with a company and a contract that is one thing and your rates can go pretty high. But to get to that point you need to have a portfolio or have an in with that company which can take a long time. If you are looking at elance or a google search, you are looking at companies or people that are offering English editing services down to like 10 an hour. I am not saying that writers digest is off the mark ( I would say you can get that), I just would say it depends who you can get as a client. Furthermore, in terms of marketing yourself, I think the previous poster was right about just working your way up with clients and referrals, otherwise you are going to be marketing yourself in a herd (google english editing services). I get what you are saying, but it is easy to say oh yeah just go market yourself - that takes a lot of time and dedication to do in and of itself if you aren't really in it to win it (meaning loving to edit papers all day). Not saying that you aren't right about the rates, but I do question the ease at which people make something sound.

And I also get what you're saying. I really do.

But at the end of the day the difference between people who see that $25 per hour rate as high end and those who see it as low end is that the latter are looking at their business as a business and putting in the work to get it off the ground, even if that takes extra time and energy. Taking it major serious rather than hoping to hit the ground running is the real difference.

I also understand the desire to start cheap. I did the same myself in the writing biz and now regularly make over $100 per hour. At least in writing you can just build a portfolio by writing without having a client, so you've got me there.

But there's also a major difference between starting at a low rate to build a portfolio for the purpose of leveraging that portfolio and starting at a lower rate and staying there...

Here's one leveraging trick but certainly not the only one. As soon as you've got a full schedule, double your rates. Scared you'll lose half your clients? Don't be. You just cut your work in half and your income stayed the same. And you deleted the cheap problem clients who aren't running a real business out of your life.

Now you've got more time to market, and you've got a portolio to do it with.

I'm not saying you should compete through Google either - it's not as good of a competition gauge as you think. On-the-surface writing markets seem to only pay about $5 per article, if not less. I make more than $100 per hour on the regular, and I'm a lazy bastard who hasn't given marketing an honest effort in a long time. Those spammy sites in Google are not real competition if you learn to market directly to the companies who already value editors.

Is marketing yourself hard? Sure it is, but it is in any serious business. And it's also a major key to success in any business...in any industry. It's not the only key, but without it, businesses perish. Without it, new businesses, like us, never get footing and eventually lose heart and flounder. It becomes too much and we get burnt out on the low pay for the huge efforts.

The trick is to find people out there who are already making it in this business the right way and learning from them. No offense, really, but my assumption is that most people charging $25 per hour (when $50 per hour is the average) have not bought the top industry books about building a copyediting business the right way and read them or at least have not followed through on what they read.

No judgement there. I've been guilty of it myself. But there it is.

And I'm not a copyeditor, I'm a writer, so if I'm wrong, my foot's in my mouth already, but I really don't think I am. Not to mention that if it's really that much harder to move up in the editing business than it is the writing business, time to rethink your choice...

Here's the thing. When you're a freelancer, $25 per hour is simply not enough! If you factor in missing out on benefits (which you'll pay for yourself if you are taking your business and life seriously) and job security and time spent on marketing and admin work, you're making much less than the perceived rate. In my opinion (and the opinion of many experts), every freelancer offering a unique skill (like copywriting or writing) should aim for a minimum of $100 per billable hour to make it worth it.

Of course, we have a little breathing room since we aim to live in foreign countries, but if we maintain a 1st world income, we're just that much more flexible with our location. Otherwise, we stress the fuck out every time we come "home."

Again, and I really can't stress it enough, it's not easy. Point me out a sound business model that is easy though. They don't exist.

Number one lesson in any business - and this is especially true online - never set out to compete on price. It's a race to the bottom that you'll always lose because they're always be someone charging less.

Instead, explain how you're different than those spammy $10 an hour editors and communicate that to the prospects. Even better, figure out which prospects already know $10 an hour is a laughable price to pay and that those providers can't be trusted, and then your job is to simply convince them you're not one of those $10 an hour providers.

Easier said than done? Of course it is. But well worth the doing when you collect those checks. No doubt about it.

 

[AroundtheWorldin80Jobs]

Just wanted to mention to you guys that if you check Writer's Digest, $25 per hour is the bottom dollar rate for copyediting. I believe they put the market average at around $50 and highs up to $175 - I recommend picking up a copy if you're going to run any kind of writing-related business.

Of course it depends on the type of copyediting as well, since rates vary.

Not bashing on you at all. I just wanted to point out that if you learn to market yourself better and target the right clients, there is quite a bit of potential out there.

I think it really depends what kind you are doing and who are your clients. I mean if you are hooked up with a company and a contract that is one thing and your rates can go pretty high. But to get to that point you need to have a portfolio or have an in with that company which can take a long time. If you are looking at elance or a google search, you are looking at companies or people that are offering English editing services down to like 10 an hour. I am not saying that writers digest is off the mark ( I would say you can get that), I just would say it depends who you can get as a client. Furthermore, in terms of marketing yourself, I think the previous poster was right about just working your way up with clients and referrals, otherwise you are going to be marketing yourself in a herd (google english editing services). I get what you are saying, but it is easy to say oh yeah just go market yourself - that takes a lot of time and dedication to do in and of itself if you aren't really in it to win it (meaning loving to edit papers all day). Not saying that you aren't right about the rates, but I do question the ease at which people make something sound.

And I also get what you're saying. I really do.

But at the end of the day the difference between people who see that $25 per hour rate as high end and those who see it as low end is that the latter are looking at their business as a business and putting in the work to get it off the ground, even if that takes extra time and energy. Taking it major serious rather than hoping to hit the ground running is the real difference.

I also understand the desire to start cheap. I did the same myself in the writing biz and now regularly make over $100 per hour. At least in writing you can just build a portfolio by writing without having a client, so you've got me there.

But there's also a major difference between starting at a low rate to build a portfolio for the purpose of leveraging that portfolio and starting at a lower rate and staying there.

Here's one trick but certainly not the only one. As soon as you've got a full schedule, double your rates. Scared you'll lose half your clients? Don't be. You just cut your work in half and your income stayed the same. And you deleted the cheap problem clients who aren't running a real business out of your life.

I'm not saying you should compete through Google either - it's not as good of a competition gauge as you think. On-the-surface writing markets seem to only pay about $5 per article, if not less. I make more than $100 per hour on the regular, and I'm a lazy bastard who hasn't given marketing an honest effort in a long time. Those spammy sites in Google are not real competition if you learn to market directly to the companies who already value editors.

Is marketing yourself hard? Sure it is, but it is in any serious business. And it's also a major key to success in any business...in any industry. It's not the only key, but without it, businesses perish.

The trick is to find people out there who are already making it in this business the right way and learning from them. No offense, really, but my assumption is that most people charging $25 per hour (when $50 per hour is the average) have not bought the top industry books about building a copyediting business the right way and read them or at least have not followed through on what they read.

I'm not a copyeditor, I'm a writer, so if I'm wrong, my foot's in my mouth already, but I really don't think I am. And if it's really that much harder to move up in the editing business than it is the writing business, time to rethink your choice...

Here's the thing. When you're a freelancer, $25 per hour is simply not enough! If you factor in missing out on benefits and job security and time spent on marketing and admin work, you're making much less than the perceived rate. In my opinion (and the opinion of many experts), every freelancer offering a unique skill (like copywriting or writing) should aim for a minimum of $100 per billable hour to make it worth it.

Again, and I really can't stress it enough, it's not easy. Point me out a sound business model that is easy though. They don't exist.

Number one lesson in any business - and this is especially true online - never set out to compete on price. It's a race to the bottom that you'll always lose because they're always be someone charging less.

Instead, explain how you're different than those spammy $10 an hour editors and communicate that to the prospects. Even better, figure out which prospects already know $10 an hour is a laughable price to pay and that those providers can't be trusted, and then your job is to simply convince them you're not one of those $10 an hour providers.

Easier said than done? Of course it is. But well worth the doing when you collect those checks. No doubt about it.

Copy---Editing. Huge difference.

From my experience, although limited, is copy editing is viewed way more of a commodity. You can only charge so much for it because although you maybe an English jedi, it is not nearly as creative or talent based as copy writing. Shit, for non-native speakers who are academics they want it on the cheap. Sure, they value a good editor but they are looking to refine their English so that is acceptable. Now, if you are talking about getting them published via content editing, also a different thing altogether with different price point. I am sure there are people out their editing for companies or specific industry stuff that is highly technical, but that wasnt what I was referring to.

I don't even like it or intend to put any effort in, I was merely offering up an opinion on another posters question.

 

[Beyond Borders]

Copy---Editing. Huge difference.

From my experience, although limited, is copy editing is viewed way more of a commodity. You can only charge so much for it because although you maybe an English jedi, it is not nearly as creative or talent based as copy writing. Shit, for non-native speakers who are academics they want it on the cheap. Sure, they value a good editor but they are looking to refine their English so that is acceptable. Now, if you are talking about getting them published via content editing, also a different thing altogether with different price point. I am sure there are people out their editing for companies or specific industry stuff that is highly technical, but that wasnt what I was referring to.

I don't even like it or intend to put any effort in, I was merely offering up an opinion on another posters question.

Yes, of course - I realize they're different. You must have misread my post as I only used what I do as a related example. You're right that they are different, and for that reason, the average for web page writing, for instance, is $83, while the average for business copyediting is $61. That reflects the difference right there.

The reason I used my work as an example is because plenty of people view SEO articles as a commodity too, but the ones who know better still pay big bucks. Believe me, I've had this same argument with people a million times when we were talking about writing and people have the same misconception about all writing-related services.

On another note, non-native speakers who are academics = the wrong market. Every copyeditor picks their own niche and who to target,, so that's a choice completely up to the provider. The solution is to simply target a different type of customer.

Alright, here is the Writer's Market Pricing guide for reference - this one's extremely outdated at 2005. http://www.writersmarket.com/assets/pdf/How_Much_Should_I_Charge.pdf Pay particular attention to "copyediting for businesses." This is where the money is usually to be found in any writing/editing market. Average is stated at $61.

But even then why would we want to be average? Is this forum here about being average about anything??? That, as well as the reasons I mentioned in my last post, is why I repeat that $100 should be the long-term aim.

Look, I'm not trying to harp on you specifically here. Not at all, Man - that wasn't my intention. If anything, I'm just trying to make it clear to readers here that the potential is there. So please don't take it personal.

But regardless, you were thee one who interjected and countered my points so you're the one I'm responding too. So since I know you're not taking it personally and I know this thread directly affects people's potential livelihood, I'm going to continue. I hope you don't mind.

Here's my real aim here. I'm glad the OP brought this up because I do think it is a good business model for location independence.

But this forum is really about getting an edge in life where others don't bother. It's about making the most of efforts in game and life and reaping the rewards. So I urge anyone here who does get into this business to take it seriously.

Is it easy to get work at $10 per hour? Sure it is. $25 per hour? Not as easy but feels more reachable, right? But knowing that it's possible to make $61 on average or even well above that, why not plan from the beginning how you will take it to the top and go that extra mile? That's how we roll here, am I right? Why settle for good enough when you know what can be achieved with some effort? It's crazy.

By the way, I did Google "freelance copywriter." I ignored the paid advertisements and clicked on the 2 copyeditors who'd used natural rankings to get to the top of Google (all others were unrelated or vague). In other words, the ones who are marketing themselves clearly in google page #1.

Neither of these professionals offers a rate on their sites. Why do you think that is? It's a bit of a rhetorical question, at least to me, but it's essentially because they know how to market. They know what any serious professional (you could even call a true copyeditor a consultant) knows - that you never quote a price on your site because it makes your service a commodity and takes all the leverage out of negotiation. That every job is different and should be bid accordingly.

If their rate was $10 - $25 per hour, they would most likely just put it there on the site so people could see right away that they were competing on price. It would be a selling point for them. Instead, they choose to get people to contact them and then sell them on the VALUE of their service, which might range from superior copyediting skills (I'm sure plenty of cheap providers murder the material), dependability, a professional demeanor, punctuality, a specific niche or experience, and on and on.

My point is these people know business. And anyone here who wants to look at copyediting as a possible business model needs to learn business too. So they can charge accordingly.

I invite you guys to email these copyeditors as if you have a job and get a bid from them...just for your own research...

http://www.jessedit.com/
http://www.ericamidkiff.com

I would put money that they bid you a rate of $50 - $60 at the minimum. If you present yourself as a company and sound legitimate they'll probably adjust their rates accordingly and go even higher. I could be wrong since I'm only basing this on their positioning and the lack of price on their site, but I stand by that anyhow. It's enough for me.

And I'd venture that providers who contact clients directly through emailing, cold calling, networking, and direct mail are charging much more than that.

I just want these guys to see the possiblities, that's all. There's a lot more $$ out there in this than you think.

And if anyone is going to go into the copyediting business with a belief in their mind that the industry averages are unobtainable for them due to all the other cheap providers, I'd really advise them to consider just getting a job. I mean, I suppose you could do those cheap rates as just a way to get by for a while before moving onto your real career, but let's look at the real potential here.

Go big or go home, as they say...

 

[AroundtheWorldin80Jobs]

Copy---Editing. Huge difference.

From my experience, although limited, is copy editing is viewed way more of a commodity. You can only charge so much for it because although you maybe an English jedi, it is not nearly as creative or talent based as copy writing. Shit, for non-native speakers who are academics they want it on the cheap. Sure, they value a good editor but they are looking to refine their English so that is acceptable. Now, if you are talking about getting them published via content editing, also a different thing altogether with different price point. I am sure there are people out their editing for companies or specific industry stuff that is highly technical, but that wasnt what I was referring to.

I don't even like it or intend to put any effort in, I was merely offering up an opinion on another posters question.

Yes, of course - I realize they're different. You must have misread my post as I only used what I do as a related example. You're right that they are different, and for that reason, the average for web page writing, for instance, is $83, while the average for business copyediting is $61. That reflects the difference right there.

The reason I used my work as an example is because plenty of people view SEO articles as a commodity too, but the ones who know better still pay big bucks. Believe me, I've had this same argument with people a million times when we were talking about writing and people have the same misconception about all writing-related services.

On another note, non-native speakers who are academics = the wrong market. Every copyeditor picks their own niche and who to target,, so that's a choice completely up to the provider. The solution is to simply target a different type of customer.

Alright, here is the Writer's Market Pricing guide for reference - this one's extremely outdated at 2005. http://www.writersmarket.com/assets/pdf/How_Much_Should_I_Charge.pdf Pay particular attention to "copyediting for businesses." This is where the money is usually to be found in any writing/editing market. Average is stated at $61.

But even then why would we want to be average? Is this forum here about being average about anything??? That, as well as the reasons I mentioned in my last post, is why I repeat that $100 should be the long-term aim.

Look, I'm not trying to harp on you specifically here. Not at all, Man - that wasn't my intention. If anything, I'm just trying to make it clear to readers here that the potential is there. So please don't take it personal.

But regardless, you were thee one who interjected and countered my points so you're the one I'm responding too. So since I know you're not taking it personally and I know this thread directly affects people's potential livelihood, I'm going to continue. I hope you don't mind.

Here's my real aim here. I'm glad the OP brought this up because I do think it is a good business model for location independence.

But this forum is really about getting an edge in life where others don't bother. It's about making the most of efforts in game and life and reaping the rewards. So I urge anyone here who does get into this business to take it seriously.

Is it easy to get work at $10 per hour? Sure it is. $25 per hour? Not as easy but feels more reachable, right? But knowing that it's possible to make $61 on average or even well above that, why not plan from the beginning how you will take it to the top and go that extra mile? That's how we roll here, am I right? Why settle for good enough when you know what can be achieved with some effort? It's crazy.

By the way, I did Google "freelance copywriter." I ignored the paid advertisements and clicked on the 2 copyeditors who'd used natural rankings to get to the top of Google (all others were unrelated or vague). In other words, the ones who are marketing themselves clearly in google page #1.

Neither of these professionals offers a rate on their sites. Why do you think that is? It's a bit of a rhetorical question, at least to me, but it's essentially because they know how to market. They know what any serious professional (you could even call a true copyeditor a consultant) knows - that you never quote a price on your site because it makes your service a commodity and takes all the leverage out of negotiation. That every job is different and should be bid accordingly.

If their rate was $10 - $25 per hour, they would most likely just put it there on the site so people could see right away that they were competing on price. It would be a selling point for them. Instead, they choose to get people to contact them and then sell them on the VALUE of their service, which might range from superior copyediting skills (I'm sure plenty of cheap providers murder the material), dependability, a professional demeanor, punctuality, a specific niche or experience, and on and on.

My point is these people know business. And anyone here who wants to look at copyediting as a possible business model needs to learn business too. So they can charge accordingly.

I invite you guys to email these copyeditors as if you have a job and get a bid from them...just for your own research...

http://www.jessedit.com/
http://www.ericamidkiff.com

I would put money that they bid you a rate of $50 - $60 at the minimum. If you present yourself as a company and sound legitimate they'll probably adjust their rates accordingly and go even higher. I could be wrong since I'm only basing this on their positioning and the lack of price on their site, but I stand by that anyhow. It's enough for me.

And I'd venture that providers who contact clients directly through emailing, cold calling, networking, and direct mail are charging much more than that.

I just want these guys to see the possiblities, that's all. There's a lot more $$ out there in this than you think.

And if anyone is going to go into the copyediting business with a belief in their mind that the industry averages are unobtainable for them due to all the other cheap providers, I'd really advise them to consider just getting a job. I mean, I suppose you could do those cheap rates as just a way to get by for a while before moving onto your real career, but let's look at the real potential here.

Go big or go home, as they say...

Argh, You are right. Aim for $100. Not saying not to. That is one search term. Could be editing services. Depends on your market. And those two you mentioned are a PR 3 on the Googles first page, so you would need to do seo work and groundwork to get it going. I am tired of this conversation. You are the heavy hitter.

 

[Beyond Borders]

That is one search term. Could be editing services. Depends on your market. And those two you mentioned are a PR 3 on the Googles first page, so you would need to do seo work and groundwork to get it going.

lol Way to completely miss the point...I'll leave these quick jabs alone since you're obviously having a hard time with this. Not sure why you're so intimidated by the thought of possibly being misled on this if you have no stake in it or opinion. It really isn't about you.

I am tired of this conversation. Take it away editing pro.

Very mature. I said it wasn't personal. I'm sorry you can't handle a rational conversation with valid points.

 

[AroundtheWorldin80Jobs]

That is one search term. Could be editing services. Depends on your market. And those two you mentioned are a PR 3 on the Googles first page, so you would need to do seo work and groundwork to get it going.

lol Way to completely miss the point...I'll leave these quick jabs alone since you're obviously having a hard time with this. Not sure why you're so intimidated by the thought of possibly being misled on this if you have not stake in it or opinion.

I am tired of this conversation. Take it away editing pro.

Very mature. I said it wasn't personal. I'm sorry you can't handle a rational conversation with valid points.

No man. I am saying you are right. You obviously know your shit and research well. I am not vested in it at all and was merely not interested in going down the rabbit hole of the issue.

 

[Beyond Borders]

That is one search term. Could be editing services. Depends on your market. And those two you mentioned are a PR 3 on the Googles first page, so you would need to do seo work and groundwork to get it going.

lol Way to completely miss the point...I'll leave these quick jabs alone since you're obviously having a hard time with this. Not sure why you're so intimidated by the thought of possibly being misled on this if you have not stake in it or opinion.

I am tired of this conversation. Take it away editing pro.

Very mature. I said it wasn't personal. I'm sorry you can't handle a rational conversation with valid points.

No man. I am saying you are right. You obviously know your shit and research well. I am not vested in it at all and was merely not interested in going down the rabbit hole of the issue.

Got you. If I misunderstood the tone of your post, I apologize.

 

[AroundtheWorldin80Jobs]

That is one search term. Could be editing services. Depends on your market. And those two you mentioned are a PR 3 on the Googles first page, so you would need to do seo work and groundwork to get it going.

lol Way to completely miss the point...I'll leave these quick jabs alone since you're obviously having a hard time with this. Not sure why you're so intimidated by the thought of possibly being misled on this if you have not stake in it or opinion.

I am tired of this conversation. Take it away editing pro.

Very mature. I said it wasn't personal. I'm sorry you can't handle a rational conversation with valid points.

No man. I am saying you are right. You obviously know your shit and research well. I am not vested in it at all and was merely not interested in going down the rabbit hole of the issue.

Got you. If I misunderstood the tone of your post, I apologize.

no worries. Hard to tell sometimes.

 

[nmmoooreland20]

Thanks for the input fellas. Despite a few people getting fixated on copywriting, I think this thread at least shed some light on the feasibility of the industry as a location independent source of income. Next steps would be to read up and find the stepping stones into the industry.

 

[Beyond Borders]

Thanks for the input fellas. Despite a few people getting fixated on copywriting, I think this thread at least shed some light on the feasibility of the industry as a location independent source of income. Next steps would be to read up and find the stepping stones into the industry.

Hmmm...Not sure why everyone's getting the idea that I meant copywriting as anything but a comparison to show how my own experiences apply. Except I did have a typo here when I said, " every freelancer offering a unique skill (like copywriting or writing) should aim for a minimum of $100 per billable hour to make it worth it."

In parentheses, I mean to say "(like copyediting or writing)"

Other than that, I guess the only thing I can say is it's hard to get the emphases in what I was saying across in text. copywriting is just a relatable example, and the markets aren't as different as you think.

Main point I'm urging people to draw is this though - $61 an hour is the average for copyediting, so set your sights high.

 

[maestrobaires]

i can help you with copywriting, programming and sales as location independent jobs

 

[RichieP]

i can help you with copywriting, programming and sales as location independent jobs

Throw up a post man! We'd like to read it.

 

[Captain Ahab]

Thanks for this thread.

I plan on going to graduate school for journalism and will be getting as much experience editing as possible.

 

[sterlingarcher]

Great thread.

Copywriting/Editing is something I have been considering, and have tried before actually.

I invested a lot of time in online courses and reading, and I think I could do a decent job. I also have plenty of time, and definitely need extra income. I gave up on it though, because I couldn't see how to make it pay, especially with so much competition on sites like Fiverr and Upwork. The posts on this thread have convinced me to try again.

I'd really appreciate some advice on how to find initial clients, how to initially market, and finding a niche. I understand the business theory, but I'd be interested to hear what posters would do in my position. I'm currently living in Russia, and could offer native English copywriting to local businesses?

Do clients care at all about making personal contact though, or it's all online, in which case I just have to accept working for next to nothing until I build up a portfolio?

Actually I guess this is a dumb post!)) Start today, open a website, accept any job, build a portfolio, get referrals, raise rates....right?)