Death

Status
Not open for further replies.

clever alias

 
Banned
theres no electromagnetic force being channeled. your consciousness, thoughts, and feelings afe just neurons snapping and firing. my father is a neuropsychologist and claimed that the more he reads about this stuff the less he can believe in god or an afterlife.

furthermore, the very notion of unconsciousness is inconceivable because you cannot use the brain to imagine a circumstance where it does not exist. for example: you have no recollection of unconscious experiences.
there was a psychology magazine dealing with this a few years back. i can try to find it if anyome is interested.
 

Acute Angle

Woodpecker
clever alias said:
furthermore, the very notion of unconsciousness is inconceivable because you cannot use the brain to imagine a circumstance where it does not exist. for example: you have no recollection of unconscious experiences.
there was a psychology magazine dealing with this a few years back. i can try to find it if anyome is interested.

I'd be interested if you can dig it out, or provide a reference.
 

clever alias

 
Banned
im not sure where to find the publication for free but
scientific american mind
"never say die: why we cant imagine death"
i think from 2008
 

Hades

 
Banned
This thread has a lot of interesting viewpoints on the subject.
Personally I think that we're just big bags of meat with a shelf life and sentience.
 

Acute Angle

Woodpecker
clever alias said:
im not sure where to find the publication for free but
scientific american mind
"never say die: why we cant imagine death"
i think from 2008

Thanks, I now have the PDF. If anyone wants it PM me with your email address.
 

RouteBackwards

Woodpecker
I'm not sure what I think about death, but I know I'm afraid of it. Sometimes I wish I did not question it and lived ignorantly under the guise of religion and what it promises.
 

Ovid

Woodpecker
I think Aristotle and St. Thomas Aquinas did a pretty good job of proving that we do indeed have immortal souls. Dogs don't gaze at the stars, they focus on the only things that matter to them. Food, fighting, and fucking. Men are different. We think. We ponder. We wonder and question, and learn. A dog can't conceive of anything except hunger and other basic instinctive things along those lines. We, on the other hand, can have internet discussions about the meaning of life, and what happens afterward. If we can question about this, and death frightens us (one might be resigned to die, but nobody positively wants to die, unless they are so worn down by suffering that they see it as a lesser evil) then I think it is clear that there is, in fact, an afterlife. If God, or Evolution, or Aliens, or whatever force one postulates created life, gave dogs the necessary things for their existence, it is logical to assume that we have the necessary things for ours too, and that, in our case, it is necessary to be able to contemplate these things. Living things seem not to have fundamental hopes and desires that are impossible to fulfill. Dogs, for example, don't want diamonds, and are not sad that they don't have the necessary anatomy or intelligence to mine them. Humans are saddened at the thought of death, of being parted from their family and friends, and of the cessation of their existence. Ergo, there probably is an afterlife, because while humans and dogs share similar physical attributes, they most certainly do not share similar mental attributes. The difference is so striking, and humans are so unique in this regard, that it is clear to me there is some reason for this, and that the human soul does not simply cease to exist when the heart stops powering the brain. This conviction has been constant throughout human history, so far as we know.
 

cibo

Kingfisher
I'm not the most religious person and I was having a lot of issues coming to terms with death a few years ago. One thing I came up with that makes me hopeful that their might be more than life and death is this.

If the pre-existence and post-existence of my life are infinite and my life is 90 to 100 years, the probability that I could exist in this time vs any other time is essentially 0. But I do exist right now so how can that be? This doesn't even take into account all the small events that somehow made matter go from hydrogen to self-awareness.

Given that I can't explain how I came to exist as I am in this time when I shouldn't exist, how can I be sure there isn't more going on here beyond my short life?
 

Weebs

Pigeon
clever alias said:
theres no electromagnetic force being channeled. your consciousness, thoughts, and feelings afe just neurons snapping and firing. my father is a neuropsychologist and claimed that the more he reads about this stuff the less he can believe in god or an afterlife.

furthermore, the very notion of unconsciousness is inconceivable because you cannot use the brain to imagine a circumstance where it does not exist. for example: you have no recollection of unconscious experiences.
there was a psychology magazine dealing with this a few years back. i can try to find it if anyome is interested.

The thing is that higher consciousness transcends science. Just because science can not explain something does not mean that it doesn't exist. Maybe in the future science will be able to explain it. Maybe it is like physics before Isaac newton. Maybe there are undiscovered laws that will explain everything. Science is one perspective to view something from. I think the most important part of learning and understanding is considering the possibilities. If you just say no no no that's not how it is, that is wrong because whether there is something or nothing...we do not know. Just because something is incomprehensible or cannot be explained with science....yet...does not make it false.
 

Homo_Sapien

Sparrow
Ovid said:
I think Aristotle and St. Thomas Aquinas did a pretty good job of proving that we do indeed have immortal souls. Dogs don't gaze at the stars, they focus on the only things that matter to them. Food, fighting, and fucking. Men are different. We think. We ponder. We wonder and question, and learn. A dog can't conceive of anything except hunger and other basic instinctive things along those lines. We, on the other hand, can have internet discussions about the meaning of life, and what happens afterward. If we can question about this, and death frightens us (one might be resigned to die, but nobody positively wants to die, unless they are so worn down by suffering that they see it as a lesser evil) then I think it is clear that there is, in fact, an afterlife. If God, or Evolution, or Aliens, or whatever force one postulates created life, gave dogs the necessary things for their existence, it is logical to assume that we have the necessary things for ours too, and that, in our case, it is necessary to be able to contemplate these things. Living things seem not to have fundamental hopes and desires that are impossible to fulfill. Dogs, for example, don't want diamonds, and are not sad that they don't have the necessary anatomy or intelligence to mine them. Humans are saddened at the thought of death, of being parted from their family and friends, and of the cessation of their existence. Ergo, there probably is an afterlife, because while humans and dogs share similar physical attributes, they most certainly do not share similar mental attributes. The difference is so striking, and humans are so unique in this regard, that it is clear to me there is some reason for this, and that the human soul does not simply cease to exist when the heart stops powering the brain. This conviction has been constant throughout human history, so far as we know.

Chimpanzees and bonobos have been known to 'ponder'. Countless animals feel some form of grief when a family member dies.

Humans are unique only in that we have the most developed consciousness (helped by our development of language). Most of what we do is geared towards our basic physiological desires, just like dogs.

Both Aquinas and Aristotle were under the impression that humans are somehow special. And it seems many of our fellow forum members are also sorely mistaken.
 

Weebs

Pigeon
Homo_Sapien said:
Ovid said:
I think Aristotle and St. Thomas Aquinas did a pretty good job of proving that we do indeed have immortal souls. Dogs don't gaze at the stars, they focus on the only things that matter to them. Food, fighting, and fucking. Men are different. We think. We ponder. We wonder and question, and learn. A dog can't conceive of anything except hunger and other basic instinctive things along those lines. We, on the other hand, can have internet discussions about the meaning of life, and what happens afterward. If we can question about this, and death frightens us (one might be resigned to die, but nobody positively wants to die, unless they are so worn down by suffering that they see it as a lesser evil) then I think it is clear that there is, in fact, an afterlife. If God, or Evolution, or Aliens, or whatever force one postulates created life, gave dogs the necessary things for their existence, it is logical to assume that we have the necessary things for ours too, and that, in our case, it is necessary to be able to contemplate these things. Living things seem not to have fundamental hopes and desires that are impossible to fulfill. Dogs, for example, don't want diamonds, and are not sad that they don't have the necessary anatomy or intelligence to mine them. Humans are saddened at the thought of death, of being parted from their family and friends, and of the cessation of their existence. Ergo, there probably is an afterlife, because while humans and dogs share similar physical attributes, they most certainly do not share similar mental attributes. The difference is so striking, and humans are so unique in this regard, that it is clear to me there is some reason for this, and that the human soul does not simply cease to exist when the heart stops powering the brain. This conviction has been constant throughout human history, so far as we know.

Chimpanzees and bonobos have been known to 'ponder'. Countless animals feel some form of grief when a family member dies.

Humans are unique only in that we have the most developed consciousness (helped by our development of language). Most of what we do is geared towards our basic physiological desires, just like dogs.

Both Aquinas and Aristotle were under the impression that humans are somehow special. And it seems many of our fellow forum members are also sorely mistaken.
 

Attachments

  • image.jpg
    image.jpg
    59 KB · Views: 425

cardguy

 
Banned
Homo Sapiens would feel less like the creations of God if our evolutionary cousins had not died out/being driven to extinction by us. Imagine sharing a neighbourhood with some of the following:

v4i4g7.jpg


Or to picture it another way. If all dogs in the world were extinct apart from German Shepherds. T German Shepherds would consider themselves special, unique and 'the chosen one' in a way they would not when there are hundreds of other breeds of dog.

That is if dogs could think of course...
 

Weebs

Pigeon
For me, this discussion is more about the power of the subconscious mind than being a creation of god. The possibilities that exist. Knowing that we do not know or understand everything and that, in my opinion, frees up our minds to explore and expand in search of answers to the most fundamental questions... The Big Bang: did all of existence start with that? Time as we know it did. What was before that? What created the conditions for it to happen? What preceded it? Scientifically speaking, not religiously. You can not say nothing..something does not come from nothing.
 

The Beast1

Peacock
Orthodox Inquirer
Gold Member
Handsome Creepy Eel said:
I don't think anything happens. The delicate bio-electrical dance that represents our brain stops dead in its tracks, misfires a bit randomly and then is still forever. We don't feel ourselves or anything anymore, and that's it. You're not going to be trapped in some void for a million years, you simply cease to exist or think.

I would really love for any vision of the afterlife to be true. I'm sure God (if it existed) would recognize that, despite not being a believer, I was a good person and lived my life kindly. But I don't count on that. It would be like a bonus life in a videogame, great but you can't count on it ever.

Yeah, i feel this is the path that i'll be taking. When we die, we rot in the ground.

I go to church, but my relationship with faith is complicated. It's more comforting than anything else. If there is a god, i'm definitely not worthy of entering into the kingdom of heaven.

Still though, it doesn't bother me. I just live in denial. It'll happen eventually. No sense bugging out.
 

Weebs

Pigeon
This is interesting. It's about people researching the near-death experiences of atheists.

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/atheists01.html

"One particular atheist once emailed me and argued that life outside the physical universe is unlikely. He stated:
The picture looks bleak so far for our survival. If the spiritual universe is completely outside of the material universe, then it has no true bearing on the physical universe, and if this is the case, then there might as well be no god. God's existence is only useful if it somehow interacts with us, in the physical universe; after all, all of our thoughts are determined by molecular motion in the brain. Prayer is initiated in the brain. A response, if it's valid, must obviously move matter through space-time. Therefore, we have this thorny problem:

If we believe that there is a spiritual universe, how does it interact with the physical universe, of which we are a part?

The Webmaster's response to the above remark is this:
First of all, you will have to give me some definitions.

What is your definition of God? What do you mean by spiritual universe?
I will assume you are using the traditional definitions. If you define God as an old man with a long beard somewhere, then I agree with you that there is no God. But if you define God the same way that many experiencers do - that everything is God - then you can come close to understanding what they know. In other words, denying the existence of a Higher Power is denying the existence of everything. In addition to this, it must be stated that the term God has so many different meanings by so many different people, that it is virtually meaningless. Perhaps the only meaning of God is what a person gives it. After all, we create our own reality and what may be true for one person, may not be true for another.

There is evidence that, to some degree, we get what we expect after death. If your using of the term spiritual universe means you are referring to another reality called heaven which exists separately from physical reality, then I would agree with you that such a reality probably does not exist. Experiencers have some good ideas about this. From a great number of near-death accounts, one can basically conclude that the realm of life after death is the realm of the mind and imagination. Today there is some very compelling circumstantial evidence that the mind survives physical death. I personally believe life after death means living in pure thought form. And thoughts are a part of reality as well. Especially if consciousness survives bodily death as the circumstantial evidence suggests."
 

Rutting Elephant

Pelican
Gold Member
The "apparent" world is the only one. The "true" world is only added by a lie.
-Nietzsche

As for "consciousness," it requires a functioning brain. There is zero evidence for minds without brains.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top