Doctrine of Deification

easterbunny2020

Pigeon
Catholic
Is the Doctrine of Deification one of the rifts between Orthodox and RCC? The doctrine makes perfect sense to me as it lines up well with the words of Christ, yet I don't ever recall hearing of it in the RCC until a lecture on Word on Fire.
 

Basilus of Moro

Sparrow
Orthodox
I believe it is. There is of course doctrine, as expressed in texts, and the liturgy, but also doctrine as expressed in the life of the Church. You will no doubt, especially recently, find papists verbally assenting to their understanding of the term "deification." The question is whether they experience this, or whether it is merely a nominal thought without reference to any lived reality.

The other question is whether they mean the same thing as us when they use the word. Still another question is whether their understanding of the term is compatible with their other commitments.

I believe the first concern is the most important since they could well mean the same thing, and it could somehow be compatible with their other commitments, yet it be entirely unlived and unavailable to them. I cannot speak to my own experience, but I can reference others like the famous papist monk who converted on Mt. Athos under Elder Amilianos, who spoke of the absence of such experiences of deification among the papists. I can reference as well a friend who sought such experiences at the more strict monasteries (Trappist) in the United States, but came away empty. This is in fact why there was a drive, as with Merton, to look eastward to Buddhism and Hinduism. It was imagined that these would provide a route to something akin to deification, as with hesychia, but sadly, it only leads to a purification of the nous so that the light of the human logos becomes visible and confused with God's own light, which is severe delusion. St. Sophrony speaks of this in one of his books.

The other questions can be addressed as well. The article linked to seems to clearly express the same general meaning we Orthodox have for the term "deification." The problem seems more with the last question, whether this teaching is compatible with their other commitments. I believe it is not, although there are avenues to undo this conflict. If Thomism is in fact the theology of papism, then I believe it is in fact incompatible, since there is no room for formal participation in that schema. Formal participation here means the sharing in of another at the level of form. Orthodox have the doctrine of the logoi, which are God's intentions for creation. These logoi are divine energeia, and set the limit and ends for all things. Inasfar as we live in accordance with our respective logoi, we come to deeper and deeper participation in God's life. I believe such an understanding is not an option for the Thomist, since God is not a formal cause in this sense, but only in the sense that he has the power to create thus and such, not that He literally possesses in Himself the distinct logoi for all created things. Now if Thomism is not the par excellence theology of papism, then perhaps there are routes out of this problem. Nonetheless, I believe the only thing that really matters here is that deification is actually possible for oneself, not whether you can speak about it in some coherent manner.
 
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easterbunny2020

Pigeon
Catholic
I believe it is. There is of course doctrine, as expressed in texts, and the liturgy, but also doctrine as expressed in the life of the Church. You will no doubt, especially recently, find papists verbally assenting to their understanding of the term "deification." The question is whether they experience this, or whether it is merely a nominal thought without reference to any lived reality.

The other question is whether they mean the same thing as us when they use the word. Still another question is whether their understanding of the term is compatible with their other commitments.

I believe the first concern is the most important since they could well mean the same thing, and it could somehow be compatible with their other commitments, yet it be entirely unlived and unavailable to them. I cannot speak to my own experience, but I can reference others like the famous papist monk who converted on Mt. Athos under Elder Amilianos, who spoke of the absence of such experiences of deification among the papists. I can reference as well a friend who sought such experiences at the more strict monasteries (Trappist) in the United States, but came away empty. This is in fact why there was a drive, as with Merton, to look eastward to Buddhism and Hinduism. It was imagined that these would provide a route to something akin to deification, as with hesychia, but sadly, it only leads to a purification of the nous so that the light of the human logos becomes visible and confused with God's own light, which is severe delusion. St. Sophrony speaks of this in one of his books.

The other questions can be addressed as well. The article linked to seems to clearly express the same general meaning we Orthodox have for the term "deification." The problem seems more with the last question, whether this teaching is compatible with their other commitments. I believe it is not, although there are avenues to undo this conflict. If Thomism is in fact the theology of papism, then I believe it is in fact incompatible, since there is no room for formal participation in that schema. Formal participation here means the sharing in of another at the level of form. Orthodox have the doctrine of the logoi, which are God's intentions for creation. These logoi are divine energeia, and set the limit and ends for all things. Inasfar as we live in accordance with our respective logoi, we come to deeper and deeper participation in God's life. I believe such an understanding is not an option for the Thomist, since God is not a formal cause in this sense, but only in the sense that he has the power to create thus and such, not that He literally possesses in Himself the distinct logoi for all created things. Now if Thomism is not the par excellence theology of papism, then perhaps there are routes out of this problem. Nonetheless, I believe the only thing that really matters here is that deification is actually possible for oneself, not whether you can speak about it in some coherent manner.
Thanks for the greatly detailed reply! Might you remember the book by St. Sophrony that speaks to this?

I have ordered a book by the priest who had the Word on Fire lecture, Father David Meoconi, Called to be the Children of God: The Catholic Theology of Human Deification and will report back with what I find.

 

Basilus of Moro

Sparrow
Orthodox
Thanks for the greatly detailed reply! Might you remember the book by St. Sophrony that speaks to this?

I have ordered a book by the priest who had the Word on Fire lecture, Father David Meoconi, Called to be the Children of God: The Catholic Theology of Human Deification and will report back with what I find.

I believe it is from "We Shall See Him As He Is." And do tell me what you find in that text, specifically whether the author gets into some of the concerns expressed above.
 

OrthoSerb

Robin
Orthodox
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