Donald Trump orders all churches "essential" and be opened immediately

paninaro

Kingfisher
The Supreme Court has ruled that the amendments apply to state government as well. The legal reasoning is that states do not have the authority to order churches closed PERIOD.
I found this:

No constitutional rights are truly absolute. Rights such as free exercise of religion and free speech can be overcome with a sufficiently compelling purpose of state and the least restrictive means of achieving that purpose. There is nothing more compelling than battling a pandemic, and limiting gathering size is the only effective deterrent to the coronavirus spreading until a vaccine can be made available.
Trump hasn't cited what legal authority he has to compel states to allow churches to open. I wonder why? There's no lack of lawyers in the Justice Department to explain this.
 

paninaro

Kingfisher
You're essentially saying people are too dumb to make decisions for themselves, or that you know what's best for them. You don't.
The government does this all the time. They require you to wear a seatbelt. They require you to submit to security screening in order to fly. They require you to file taxes and provide supporting documentation, instead of just trusting that the amount you think you should pay is accurate.
 

Leonard D Neubache

Owl
Gold Member
Complaints of spreading the virus are a false issue anyway.

Run with basic precautions Church is demonstrably safer than going shopping. You literally don't need to touch anything other than your seat except for communion which Catholics had already reduced to The Body minus The Blood before the blanket ban on congregating came down anyway.

Aside, this is doubtless political theater, albeit a good outcome. Their AI saw a spike in dissent among the religious and they decided to cut that fish a little slack before the line snapped.
 
The legal system (like the medical system) is a mess. Too few honorable people to stand up for the truth. Those that do (such as those docs in California who spoke out) are heavily censored and/or punished.

Fact: there is no “pandemics clause” in the Constitution. The framers knew about pandemics and rejected such a catch-all provision. Evil & deceitful lawyers, like Alan “I flew on lolita express and stayed on pedo island” Dershowitz, try to muddy the waters and spin rights as privileges (which is Elite opinion now). Don’t let them.

Besides, no church should follow Caesar when his commands directly conflict with His commands (such as having the Eucharist). The church has a long history of working with (& sometimes against) civil authorities.
 
The Supreme Court has ruled that the amendments apply to state government as well. The legal reasoning is that states do not have the authority to order churches closed PERIOD.
It was the post-Civil War amendments to the Constitution that mandated state governments respect the Bill of Rights. The 14th Amendment states: "No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States."
 
I draw the line between politics / opinion vs the health of my parents, as the elderly is the majority of church goers.

I'd be the first governor to refuse given what we know at the current time before I allow my parents to go to church.

A church building is NOT essential. Last I heard, people don't need a building or church pews to speak or pray to God and the bible hasn't changed since the corona virus.

This was a political move, nothing more.

Put the health of your parents before your politics because you only have one mother and father.
You cannot fear both death and God. We must each choose which master to ultimately serve.
 

Easy_C

Crow
It's easy to get black-pilled about the "success" of Don's presidency, but it's issues that like this that make me stop and reflect on how bad things could've been.

Can you imagine if Hillary was elected? Churches would still be shut down. Vaccines would be mandatory. And the government spending would be 300% more.
Well, we'd probably have a civil war in beginning to manifest in the early stages with things like smaller groups attacking federal law enforcement if that was the case.
 

bucky

Pelican
You cannot fear both death and God. We must each choose which master to ultimately serve.
Although, why even make it a life-or-death matter. Churches can just livestream services and the truly vulnerable (elderly, obese, heavy smokers, etc) can stay home voluntarily and watch from there.
 

Aboulia

Sparrow
Although, why even make it a life-or-death matter. Churches can just livestream services and the truly vulnerable (elderly, obese, heavy smokers, etc) can stay home voluntarily and watch from there.
Do you know you run the risk of being hit by a car everywhere there is automobile traffic? Worldwide coronavirus deaths aren't anywhere close to the average yearly automobile related deaths. Yet you still leave your home and are not in fear of using a car, why?
 

Blade Runner

Woodpecker
As many state above (and the majority criticism of the minority posts here is deserved), the continual denial of the real risk of this virus is really hard to grasp and ultimately, very scary for the human, as person and in group. That is, regardless of which side you want to land on, as far as margin of error goes, this is not significantly different than a bad seasonal flu season. It has been said ad nauseum but I'll state it again: We have had this category of disease and respiratory disease in our midst before, many times, and done nothing but common precautions.

Making strong pronouncements on what is or is not essential given this backdrop is furthering the madness, beyond it coming from people whose practices and priorities in life are themselves essentially different (religious traditions, for example).

Even from a worldly or "scientific" point of view, the messaging is schizophrenic but we know why. Science has very little at all to do with this. If you really want to be concerned, examine why the DOJ hasn't sued state orders on a Constitutional basis yet, or how long it has taken even local constitutional issues to come to the forefront or be decided. If any time in history needed expedited hearing of cases, this would be it.
 

bucky

Pelican
Do you know you run the risk of being hit by a car everywhere there is automobile traffic? Worldwide coronavirus deaths aren't anywhere close to the average yearly automobile related deaths. Yet you still leave your home and are not in fear of using a car, why?
I've long suspected that these car accidents of which you speak can be dangerous.
 

Rob Banks

Kingfisher
Although, why even make it a life-or-death matter. Churches can just livestream services and the truly vulnerable (elderly, obese, heavy smokers, etc) can stay home voluntarily and watch from there.
Because what our society -- and especially our worship services -- really needs is more dependence on advanced mass-produced technology.
 

bucky

Pelican
Because what our society -- and especially our worship services -- really needs is more dependence on advanced mass-produced technology.
Why not use technology where it's actually helpful. The virus does exist, and it's actually dangerous for a small minority of the population. My wife's parish has been livestreaming mass since this whole fiasco started. Granted, they've been doing it wrong by keeping everyone away and not being able to pass a collection plate, therefore killing themselves financially. Then again, I believe that was a country-wide RCC policy, so there's not much our local parish priest can do but write desperate letters begging for donations. It would be best to keep the livestreams going for the people who might actually die from the virus and have everyone come in for mass.
 

Rob Banks

Kingfisher
↑I disagree.

Reliance on mass technology is never without consequences.

I'm no Catholic theologian, but I would like to see virtual/digital Masses be declared invalid.

The whole point of Mass is that you congregate and worship together.

The Church's willingness to use virtual Masses to cater to the vulnerable, while well-intentioned, can easily lead to the virtual Mass being extended to all parishoners and physical churches being closed indefinitely.

Additionally, governments in jurisdictions with "hate speech" laws can use their NSA-like data collection agencies to access sermons and jail preachers who preach against things like homosexuality and feminism. That already happened to Swedish pastor Åke Green, who was jailed for preaching against homosexuality. Technology will make it a lot easier for governments to do things like that.

These are only a few examples of possible consequences that could result from the widespread adoption of virtual livestream Masses. I'm sure there's many more.
 

bucky

Pelican
↑I disagree.

Reliance on mass technology is never without consequences.

I'm no Catholic theologian, but I would like to see virtual/digital Masses be declared invalid.

The whole point of Mass is that you congregate and worship together.

The Church's willingness to use virtual Masses to cater to the vulnerable, while well-intentioned, can easily lead to the virtual Mass being extended to all parishoners and physical churches being closed indefinitely.

Additionally, governments in jurisdictions with "hate speech" laws can use their NSA-like data collection agencies to access sermons and jail preachers who preach against things like homosexuality and feminism. That already happened to Swedish pastor Åke Green, who was jailed for preaching against homosexuality. Technology will make it a lot easier for governments to do things like that.

These are only a few examples of possible consequences that could result from the widespread adoption of virtual livestream Masses. I'm sure there's many more.
Decent point. Maybe grant a "get out of mass free" card to the vulnerable instead, I don't know. Although with how converged all the Catholic parishes around here seem to be, I doubt they'll have any problems with Big Brother. It's not like a priest is going to get disappeared for a sermon about the evils of racism or the need for immigration reform.
 

Greyman

Sparrow
My day is beautiful. I woke up next to a long haired woman who shall become my wife up on our mountain retreat.

Rode my dirt bike helmetless down the mountain roads, til pulling up to the garden area next to the church; I walked in, armed, took my place next to a guy that last week brought home grown honey to give to us; we stood and My pastor said the pledge of allegiance to the flag of both the USA and then to Christ. He then proceeded to speak to the fact that he's willing to go to jail in service to his congregation should the sheriff's dept. or whomever decides that the worshiping of God and we're doing is wrong.

This is all conducted in the great State of Jefferson (to be, God willing...)

I don't believe in (alot of) the tenants of scripture or Jesus Christ; I don't believe in the dividing of sea's or walking on water or raising the dead or most things that christianity and all its differing modalities are about BUT....I do believe that the time is coming that a side needs to be chosen.

I believe that the christian faith and the people found within are, on the whole, the most benevolent and peaceful form of religiousness out there. I believe in the morality of what it teaches on the whole. Do unto others....honor your kin...don't fuck the neighbors wife....show kindness and compassion to those that need it even if not deserving it...forgive your enemy....to a point.

I believe Christianity needs warriors. Badly.

And I need a God and something other that the crumbling chaos around me unto which I will build a foundation for myself and family to belong to, protect and be protected by.

I believe in Trump; not in him per se but the upheaval to a corrupt system he's shaking up to some degree.

I believe in Christianity because like the Pres....its an underdog and getting its ass kicked for some legitimate, yes.... but on the whole, not honorable reasons...and I hate bullies.

I believe in Lt. Col Dave Grossman's sheepdog analogy.

There's a fight coming. I like being at peace, finally, in all my years that I served this country, to now be ok with what I may have to do.

Say frosty Gents.
 
Top