Doubts about SSPX

Rob Banks

Pelican
I am not sure where to post this, so I'll post it here.

I watched Roosh's stream with Jay Dyer, and then I started watching other Jay Dyer videos on theology.

I have been having doubts about the SSPX Catholic Church I recently started attending (and about Catholicism in general) due to the Vatican II issue.

Novus Ordo Catholicism doesn't appeal to me for obvious reasons, and sedevacantism doesn't make sense because if there is no pope, then there will soon be no bishops or priests either (only the pope can consecrate bishops, and only bishops can ordain priests). This would mean that under sedevacantism, the Church (or at least the clergy) eventually ceases to exist, which would mean that the Church failed. That goes against the Christian teaching that the Church cannot fail.

That leaves trad groups like SSPX as the only valid option. However, I cannot get behind the idea that Vatican II was valid but simply had "errors" (what SSPX teaches). I do not believe the Vatican II people were acting in good faith and simply made mistakes. It is clear to me that Vatican II was a deliberate act of subversion meant to co-opt the church and make it subservient to modernism and globohomo.

I don't think I'll stop attending my church just yet. It has done a lot of good for me, and I like the people there. But I have doubts about the whole thing.

Jay Dyer recommends Orthodox Christianity, and he makes some very good points. I am not nearly as well-versed in theology as he is, but the stuff he says makes sense to me for the most part.

Also, the reason I chose a trad Catholic church over an Orthodox one is that I am half Italian and my mom was baptized Catholic as a child. On the other hand, I am not Russian or Greek, and I thought that maybe an Orthodox church full of ethnic Russians or Greeks would not be so welcoming towards an outsider with no ties to Orthodox Christianity. I am now questioning whether or not this was a good enough reason to choose Catholicism.

I hate having to learn about the politics behind all this stuff. I really just want to find a good church that preserves true (i.e. original) Christianity and Christian teachings.
 

redbeard

Hummingbird
Moderator
However, I cannot get behind the idea that Vatican II was valid but simply had "errors" (what SSPX teaches). I do not believe the Vatican II people were acting in good faith and simply made mistakes. It is clear to me that Vatican II was a deliberate act of subversion meant to co-opt the church and make it subservient to modernism and globohomo.
How much of the Vatican II documents have you actually read?
 

Rob Banks

Pelican
↑ Maybe this is me being naive and/or prideful, but do I really need to read the actual documents in order to conclude that Vatican II was a deliberate act of leftist/modernist subversion?

I am somewhat familiar with what the church teachings were before and after Vatican II with regards to sexual morality (in my opinion, the most important difference between the pre- and post-Vatican II churches) as well as freedom of religion, the Jews, and a lot of other issues.

I mean, during Vatican II, the Church came out and formally announced that Jews were not responsible for Jesus's death. I'm not familiar enough with theology to know if it is fair to have contempt for modern-day Jews because of Jesus's death, but the fact that the Vatican felt the need to formally disavow Christians who hold this view is at best very suspicious.

Additionally, forum member ilostabet was talking here about how Western Catholicism encouraged mass technological advancement (which led to many social problems) while the Orthodox did not. I believe another forum member (I forget who) said that Atheism is a product of Western Christianity and its elevation of reason and science over all other things.

Vatican II is not the only reason I am having doubts about Catholicism.
 
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redbeard

Hummingbird
Moderator
↑ Maybe this is me being naive and/or prideful, but do I really need to read the actual documents in order to conclude that Vatican II was a deliberate act of leftist/modernist subversion?
How can you criticize documents that you haven't even read?

My take is that the council itself wasn't that bad...it was the implementation that was a trainwreck.

The church teachings have stayed the same, but enforcement has changed a ton. The catechism still states that pre-martial sex and contraception are 100% immoral. But, some confessors will brush them off like it's no big deal.
I mean, during Vatican II, the Church came out and formally announced that Jews were not responsible for Jesus's death. I'm not familiar enough with theology to know if it is fair to have contempt for modern-day Jews because of Jesus's death, but the fact that the Vatican felt the need to formally disavow Christians who hold this view is at best very suspicious.
Where does it say this?

To be fair, I haven't read all of the V2 documents. They're quite long. I have read some of the sections though, and I'm open to discussion.

A great example of how the council was implemented improperly are extraordinary ministers.

Read what even the USCCB is saying about their use:
Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion
28. When the size of the congregation or the incapacity of the bishop, Priest, or Deacon requires it, the celebrant may be assisted by other bishops, Priests, or Deacons. If such ordinary ministers of Holy Communion are not present, "the Priest may call upon extraordinary ministers to assist him, that is, duly instituted acolytes or even other faithful who have been duly deputed for this purpose. In case of necessity, the Priest may depute suitable faithful for this single occasion." Extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion should receive sufficient spiritual, theological, and practical preparation to fulfill their role with knowledge and reverence. When recourse is had to Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion, especially in the distribution of Holy Communion under both kinds, their number should not be increased beyond what is required for the orderly and reverent distribution of the Body and Blood of the Lord. In all matters such Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion should follow the guidance of the Diocesan Bishop.
This is not what's put into practice, at all. In most parishes, EM's are such a standard fixture in the celebration of the mass that they have a schedule. There's nothing extra-ordinary about this.

That's what I mean by poor implementation. The V2 documents say that the Latin Mass may be celebrated, yet in implementation, the vernacular replaced latin in 99% of churches.
 

redbeard

Hummingbird
Moderator
E. Michael Jones teaches that it was the interpretation of Vatican II controlled by Jews that caused that more than the document itself.
Precisely.

When you combine the after-effects of V2 with the disintegration of communities (as EMJ references in The Slaughter of Cities), it's clear to see why the Catholic Church has gotten much "weaker."

It's up to us to strengthen it back up.
 

Rob Banks

Pelican
My (albeit not as well-informed as some others' here) view is that, while Vatican II doesn't technically go against Church teachings, its ratification was, in a sense, a wink and a nod to the modernists and subversives, signaling that the Catholic Church was willing to play ball.

One example of this is the Vatican II teaching that procreation is no longer considered the sole primary purpose of the sexual act, but that the unification of husband and wife was now on equal footing with procreation as the primary purpose of the sexual act (No, I don't have direct sources to back this up. I believe I heard it on Dr. Taylor Marshall's Youtube channel but I could be mistaken).

Elevating the aspect of unity between husband and wife during sex is not technically so bad, but this was obviously used to eventually conclude that the primary purpose of sex is to express love, that procreation is not so important, that sterile contraceptive sex is not so bad, and all the rest of it.

Additionally, some traditional Catholics believe that traditionalist Cardinal Giuseppe Siri was originally elected to succeed Pope Pius XII in 1959, even going so far as to take the papal name Gregory XVII, but that he was forced to turn down the position (probably because his family was threatened or something like that), and he was replaced by the more liberal John XVIII, who started Vatican II.

There are also those who say the Church, at the highest levels, was infiltrated by communist as early as the 1930s.

I'm not as well-versed in theology as most of you guys, but it is evident to me that there was some real f**kery going on within the Church during the 20th century, even if the Vatican II documents don't technically contradict Church teachings.
 
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AnonymousBosch

Crow
Gold Member
Rob:

You're new to the Spiritual Life. Your mind is currently a playground for the Devil, who can implant all kind of images and emotions into your lower faculties to upset, confuse and make you suspicious. This makes any kind of larger discernment of God's Will and emotional value judgments very suspect.

These two series might take you a month to go through slowly, but I highly-recommend both, so you have a clearer idea of how the enemy works, for this will save you much confusion and frustration, and give you clear rules for acting:

The first is the 14 rules of St Francis of Loyola for Discernment of Spirits, who was an obvious INTJ, and clearly-identified the patterns in how the Demons work:

https://www.discerninghearts.com/catholic-podcasts/fr-timothy-gallagher-discernment-of-spirits/

This second series builds upon it, and goes further into Spiritual Desolation, which are the times God allows you to be trialed by the enemy by withdrawing excesses of Grace, though He always leaves you just enough to resist the Desolation.

https://www.discerninghearts.com/ca...l-desolation-be-aware-understand-take-action/

Discernment is the difference between having a thought that derails your prayer life for weeks, and one where you roll your eyes and think 'Nice try', and peace of mind returns.

This is why I'm deeply-suspicious of schismatics and those who mistrust Mother Church: mental turmoil is of the enemy, and stillness and peace - even in the face of vicious trials - is the promise of Jesus.

My own experience is that the Demonic World is incredibly-legalistic, and stepping outside the protection of Mother Church gives the Demons Legal Permission to mess with you, and it's only by responding positively to Grace that you're protected. You yourself admit you're regularly still choosing sin over God, so if the SSPX is free of 'Satanic Influence', where are the fruits?

I've sent you what the Church Teaching is on SSPX: you are free to attend the Latin Rite, or the Eastern Rite, both of which are recommended over SSPX.

I stumbled across this yesterday: Pope Francis talking about how to recognise the Devil's Voice and God's Voice:

https://aleteia.org/2020/05/04/popes-mini-lesson-how-to-discern-if-god-or-satan-is-speaking/

It's fantastic advice, and the discernment at play in those observations is nothing the early church fathers didn't comment upon, so when I see the latest hysteria over what 'Pope Francis Said Now', and look up what actually what was said, not what was reported, I usually recognise pre-Vatican II theology. My only real concern with him is his Green Ideology, but, man, is there anyone here whose life isn't impacted by the majority of governments forcing its citizens to follow those beliefs?

Some critics might condemn Pope John Paul II's 'Theology of the Body', but it's clearly built upon St Thomas Aquinas and undoing some errors and heretical thought that crept into the church during the pre-Reformation middle ages.

Here's questions I'd ask anyone who is excessively-worried about Satanism in the Church, and believing the Novus Ordo is invalid:

- do you use Netflix? Disney Plus? Amazon Prime?
- do you watch Youtube?
- do you watch Hollywood movies?
- do you play violent video games?
- do you use use Google or Yahoo services?
- do you buy products from Amazon?
- do you have an I-Phone?
- do you use Paypal?

If you're turning from Mother Church out of fear that it's Satanic - and fear is not God's Will for how you should live - but still using any of those services, then you're being a raging hypocrite, because the CEO's in play there are openly-Satanic, (and mostly Reform Jewish). I limit what I use, but I also understand the natural imperfections of the worldly realm, meaning, some interaction with a fallen world is necessary. A mobile phone is now a necessary evil - society expects instant contact now - but the Catholic Church taught me how to mortify my desire for being distracted by it and how to detach from it. This also means I expect any denomination to have good and bad Priests, and that good and bad can exist in the same person, and that even very good people will have natural imperfections and failings, because they're human, not divine, and spiritual growth is a lifetime process, not instantaneous perfection. I also believe the Laity should focus on the teachings of the Church on mortification and detachment first, and particularly have a regular prayer and theology study cycle in place before throwing around accusations of unholiness at their religious superiors.

I would suggest that even if you only read 5 pages of this book a day, within 6 months you'd have a solid grounding of what Catholicism is, and what the different steps - including the Three Ages of your Spiritual Life and the Nine Grades of Prayer - and eventual goal of your Catholic journey is. Skip ahead to 'First Principles' and start there. You're in the Purgative Way, so focus on what is taught in that section for now.

https://archive.org/details/TanquereySpiritualLife/page/n2/mode/2up

It's pre-Vatican II.
 

Rob Banks

Pelican
@AnonymousBosch

On your previous recommendation, I have already seen most of the St. Ignatius videos on the 14 rules. They were very helpful and I appreciate the recommendation. I will try to check out the other videos and readings you suggested.

By the way, what is your opinion on the Orthodox? I am not thinking of converting or anything like that (technically I haven't even converted to Catholicism yet), but I was just wondering what the Catholic view of Orthodoxy is (i.e. if it is considered schismatic and heretical or just another valid version of Christianity).

P.S. Roosh, if this is not the place to have these discussions regarding different forms of Christianity, please let me know and feel free to close this thread. I am not looking to debate or argue with anyone. I am new to the faith and I am just having some doubts. That is all.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Another forum member posted this (in response to one of my posts) in the God Pill thread (see bolded portion):
^^^ This has been an extremely difficult hurdle to cross for myself also. I was attending an FSSP latin mass and found myself in constant conflict. I can't say I have this sorted out, but I have a real mistrust of most Novus Ordo Priests and recent Church teaching.

The technical answer I have found is:
Vatican 2 is a non binding council and does not pronounce on any dogma, therefore you can believe both. The people at my Church often accept the New Mass as Valid, but find it to be irreverent compared to the Tridentine Mass (Latin Mass). In this way, the technical answer is the "Official Church Teaching is This". People will point you to Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Otto Witt, and another writer called Denzinger. These are books which summarize Dogma so you know what you have to believe and what you don't. This is more the FSSP mentality, the SSPX mentality I believe is that Vatican 2 does in fact needs clarification.

Still I find myself totally confused on a practical level. I go to an FSSP catechism class, and we are taught things very differently than what your typical Novus Ordo attendee is taught. The Teaching going on at most Churches strays far from "Official Church Teaching" and I find that people just don't believe. I think of 2 Aunts of mine who attend the Novus Ordo and you realize that they don't truly believe in the eucharist or the official doctrine and are open about it.

I was having serious doubts about this pope and this doctrine itself, and I was questioning whether I could even go to Communion. Was I in communion with the Pope and the Chruches celebrating the New Mass ? Vatican 2 apparently you don't have to believe any of it, its just pastoral, which is confusing as all heck when it is EVERYWHERE! It was a hard thing to get my head around and still I haven't totally. It isn't helped by the fact that the diocesan priests often really dislike SSPX and even FSSP and will take steps to stop their growth.

I hope this helps, I might be sowing more confusion but at least you know you are not alone on this.
I have not yet received communion as I am not baptized yet, but this is a concern I have (the possibility of being in communion with people and churches who are influenced by demons or evil spirits).
 

AnonymousBosch

Crow
Gold Member
@Rob_Banks

The videos might sound straight-forward enough to start with, but there's an experiential component that won't really register until you've gone through what is described multiple times, which is why it might be worth listening again say, 12 months from now, and you'll immediately recognise it. I thought St Catherine of Siena was terrifying upon first reading: 18 months later, experience taught me it was actually a message of great love and hope.

I'm serious about Tanquerey. Whilst choosing a Church that 'feels' right, might give you the personal satisfaction of feeling holier, if you work through Book One of Tanquerey and start putting the suggesting practices for the Purgative Way into regular, constant willed action, you will become holier. If you take a quick look at the bibliography at the beginning of the book, you will see this handbook of moral theology - a car manual, if you will - has been compiled by the teachings of scripture, multiple saints, theologians and doctors of the church.

I thought about you before and during mass, so I discussed your issues briefly with my Priest after it ended. He's teaching me deliverance and rightly-corrected me by pointing out what I should have noticed: a failed marriage; repetitive 'driving' patterns of sin; and suspicion of the Catholic Church all suggest Freemasonic Interference, which means your mind will never be able to rest in stillness. I went through this hyper-suspicion of the Church during the first six months: my sister shared it. When we both stilled our judgment and trusted in God's Church from a place of humility and love, we were both soon after delivered from Freemasonary.

This is all about giving up your worries, fears, and concerns - your need to control your own life because you think you know best - and handing this control over to God, where it rightly belongs.

My Priest agreed with me in that you should concentrate for the moment on the first section of Tanquerey: build up a regular prayer and meditation life, and mortify the behaviours that drove your wife away, and agreed with my suggestion to place her in God's hands with love and trust. You're in early days: you won't have trust yet, but if you pay attention and make the personal effort, he will gradually teach you what He is capable of. This is a far better use of your time than running around condemning the Pope and the upper Hierarchy of the Church, and will do more to frustrate the Devil's designs for you. Jesus has told various Saints to always default to humility and obedience, and the Devil will never be able to touch you.

If you think the Novus Ordo is too liberal, perhaps the issue isn't so much with the Catholic Church, but Americans in the Catholic Church, who have, by nature, a rebellious, arrogant spirit to them, and see submission as weakness.

My Priest did ask you to look back at your family history:

1. Do you have any English or Scottish heritage back in your family line?
2. Are there any converts to the Catholic Church in your family line?
3. Is there any known involvement with Freemasonary in the family line?
4. Your (real) last name might also clue him in.

Note that he's got a very good gut instinct for this kind of thing. Note that Freemasonary has been condemned by the Church and various Popes multiple times for its demonic effects upon a family line. Pope Leo, who composed the Prayer to St Michael, has a great encyclical on this.

I'm pretty sure I linked you to a video on finding your Primary Wound through the Blessed Mother via the Seven Sorrow devotion. Did you ever pray for guidance? This is how I discovered the problem was Freemasonary in my line.

Failing that, ask all your relatives. If you either know, have it confirmed or strongly-suspect Freemasonic Interference, my Priest has volunteered his help to grant you Deliverance, as Facilitator between you and Jesus. I would ask you to try and confirm this first so not as to waste his time if you don't think it's necessary, because there are many other people who need him each day, and the burden would then be on you to put Tanquerey's recommendations into practice. Yes, it can be done via multiple sessions over Skype, but there's a series of formal renouncements that have to be made first that I will send you privately to break the demonic 'rights' over your body.

This process is tedious, and there's a lot of demonic interference that will try and stop you saying these renouncements. My Sister and I both noted a total apathy to doing it initially - we'd made very little progress after a number of days - then, at some point, the spirit took over, and we churned through them like someone had stoked our boilers with coal.

Note that this won't protect you from choosing Sin: you will still need to practice mortification and detachment. It won't guarantee that you'll suddenly become holy - my Priest has spoken of people being granted miraculous healings but it still doesn't make them believe, and they don't start attending mass. You'll still go through Desolation. What it will do is quieten annoying, destructive influences and grant you back your legal rights to your own body, family and finances and give you a more solid base to work from in your Spiritual Life.

Understand that he is a Novus Ordo Priest: if your suspicion is that there is something Demonic in them, pray for guidance. I'm not saying you have to do this now: I waited and prayed for 15 months for another member here to be shown the light, and now he's been through the experience, he gets it. I might ask him to briefly-testify, if he'll agree, though I'll respect his privacy if he doesn't yet feel ready to share anything.

By the way, 'Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma' is by Dr Ludwig Ott. It's a dry, academic work. I don't recommend reading it if you're still in the Fear of God / Legalistic mindset: it will terrify you. Tanquerey is teaching the same dogma, but what will make changes in your day to day life, in an easier-to-read, far more approachable format. Get some solid experiential knowledge of God's love under your belt first. I'd only recommend Ott if you really are intending to argue apologetics. This is my Tan book hardcover.



It's also available on archive.org:

https://archive.org/details/fundamentalsofcatholicdogma_201910/page/n13/mode/2up

... but I'm only offering it for those more grounded in the faith, and am not suggesting it for you, at this point in your journey. Tanquerey will show you what to do at this point in your journey, where you currently are, with what you currently have. Make sense?
 
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If I recall, Our lady of Fatima, along with other Marian apparitions have already foretold the state of the church as it is today. Also, the Church has gone through many ups and downs throughout history. Did you know that the Orthodox also faced many turmoils throughout history? If you have the time, check this video of the "Complete History" of the Church. It goes over instances in which the Eastern Orthodox were in error(i know, you never hear about these, EVER), but Catholics held firm in the true teaching of the faith. I highly recommend everyone actually to watch the video below:


I am also new to all of this, but from what I have learned thus far, if you "jump ship" as soon as something wrong goes on in the Catholic Church, you are completely missing the point of being a Catholic. You are abandoning the Mother Church instead of staying the course and being the change that it needs back to tradition. As I said above, throughout history, Catholics, Orthodox (oriental and Eastern) have faced their times of crisis and heresy. Not one is perfect, and to expect one Church to be perfect forever is silly and utopian-like. When the church was in crisis, those who stayed faithful were the cause of positive change. Yes, it seems like doom and gloom right now with Pope Francis, along with the culmination of modernism and infiltration of the church by commies, jews and protestants bearing all of their fruits today. Yes, going back to how the church was also seems insurmountable, but with faith, prayer and a fighting spirit of sticking to TRUE catholic tradition, we can change this.

Think about it this way, and this is just my opinion on the matter. Do we deserve a good, Traditional Church? Do we deserve a church when our Boomer Grandparents/Parents were the children of the Sexual revolution? Subsequent generations failed to see the light, including us. Every person in the west was consumed by their passions, thinking that we no longer needed God...until finally, we hit rock bottom after fornicating, drinking, doing drugs, children out of wedlock etc etc etc.. We sinned and sinned and sinned, as our forefathers did, and now, we are demanding a church that is perfectly intact. Why? Why should we, when just about all of us became lay Catholics(in name only) breaking every rule there is? I'm not saying we deserve it, but to expect the church to be in perfect standing, when millions of Catholics around the world thought they didn't need the Church or God anymore, is expecting too much. Perhaps this is our Humiliation, perhaps not, again this is just my own opinion on the matter.

You said it yourself, you're half Italian with Catholic heritage. You're about to throw away hundreds of years of a legacy because you're still looking at religion as if it's a shopping item instead of looking at the heritage it holds in your family and perhaps how they themselves fought for their faith in times of old. I cannot fathom changing churches ever, no matter what happens, or what Jay Dyer says, merely knowing that my ancestors were Catholics. I would rather die for my faith, but that is just me. From what I have heard, the Orthodox also have their fair share of problems, and if you think going to them is going to secure you and your future family from ever facing some sort of crisis in the church X years from now, you are mistaken and not versed in History. The problem here is not SSPX.
 
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I thought about you before and during mass, so I discussed your issues briefly with my Priest after it ended. He's teaching me deliverance and rightly-corrected me by pointing out what I should have noticed: a failed marriage; repetitive 'driving' patterns of sin; and suspicion of the Catholic Church all suggest Freemasonic Interference, which means your mind will never be able to rest in stillness. I went through this hyper-suspicion of the Church during the first six months: my sister shared it. When we both stilled our judgment and trusted in God's Church from a place of humility and love, we were both soon after delivered from Freemasonary.
Fascinating. Is that always true? My aunt is Catholic, and my mom was banging on about how Catholicism was satanic for "reasons". I know my mom is scummy too. My good friend is Christadelphian, which seems like a cult like sect, but she actually behaves in a semi-secular way. Still, she thinks Catholicism is incorrect/non-Christian, even though she doesn't believe in Satan(except for multiple Satans/anti-christs being "adversaries").
 

AnonymousBosch

Crow
Gold Member
It's a possible sign, but not one you can single out by itself. There's multiple other factors that can be signs, like Child Abuse within family lines, Demonic Oppression, Homosexuality, Autism, Financial Issues etc. You wouldn't suspect it unless there's multiple-existing simultaneous factors.: knowing more about Rob's case, I suspect it's the same issue at play, but in a slightly-more hidden form, but it would take proper discernment from a Deliverance Minister to correctly-diagnose this.
 
I would imagine that it's unlikely my mom/family/friend had Freemasonic Interference then. That being said sometimes my parents felt possessed(or what I would imagine possession to be like). Scary stuff when that happened.
 

AnonymousBosch

Crow
Gold Member
The Freemason curses open you up to Demonic Oppression, not Possession. For example: my Freemasonic Grandfather died young of a heart attack; his four sons all required heart surgery; his wife was knocked down by a car in her early 40's and spent the last 50 years of her life walking with her top half hunched over at an almost 90 degree angle; his oldest son snapped his neck suddenly in a bike accident; there's childhood sexual abuse and autism all through the family; not one of their original marriages survived; I grew up in a house full of occult books where things moved by themselves; my Sister, Mother and Father were all into occult books; I was hit with a severe illness in my twenties then had unexplained neck and nervous system issues once I tried to re-enter the church; and my Father never successfully endures in his faith.

That's the sort of pattern that rings deliverance alarm bells: demons have been given free reign to mess with your family. When my faith journey began back in 2016, it was due to an off-hand, joking comment to me by a friend: "your family is cursed". Then, what I now recognise as infused knowledge hit me: "My family is cursed". I just innately-understood a spiritual truth that I couldn't have possibly-known, and I remember discussing it with SamBRoberts at the time.

Not everything is demonic, some people just have psychological issues, and not everything is psychological issues, some people just are bastards. Try to love them regardless.
 
Rob, when I first started coming back to Christ I also had doubts about the Catholic Church. Like yourself fueled by Jay Dyer. I like Jay and I even have a signed copy of one of his books, but at some point I came to the conclusion that I don`t know enough about theology to even understand his arguments. They seem logical but the arguments of this "refutation" against Jay also seem right, apart from the personal attacks.


Still I think vaticancatholic propagates the theory that Francis is an anti pope and similar stuff. So I came to the conclusion for myself that I don`t know anything and should stay with the church of my ancestors similar to the argumentation of Auguste or Roosh.
 

AnonymousBosch

Crow
Gold Member
Rob, when I first started coming back to Christ I also had doubts about the Catholic Church. Like yourself fueled by Jay Dyer. I like Jay and I even have a signed copy of one of his books, but at some point I came to the conclusion that I don`t know enough about theology to even understand his arguments. They seem logical but the arguments of this "refutation" against Jay also seem right, apart from the personal attacks.
I was asked about Jay privately earlier today, and in the interests of not saying anything privately that I wouldn't also voice publicly, I'll just describe my experience with Jay's work.

I'd heard him on a podcast with a friend, and thought some of what he said was interesting. It was a time when I was trying to support the (oddly-promoted) voices on youtube who were contradicting the narrative, so I purchased one of his books:



Now, it took a long time to turn up, and, in the meantime, I went through a process of Spiritual Renouncement, and underwent a few Deliverance sessions, including the one that unbinded me from a Demon that entered me as a teenager. One thing I understood as I read the renouncement book on Freemasonary, is that it was clearly explaining the Spiritual Reality behind it in great detail, but there was also an overwhelming understanding that accessing this knowledge was being tolerated purely for the renouncement, and that I shouldn't know it or concern myself with it beyond this. So, I prayed that God would make me forget what I had read when I was done, which was largely-successful.

A few weeks after the fact, that book turned up, when the mailman brought it around the back as I was having a morning cup of tea. As I sat there, I took it out of the package, gave it a quick flick, noted a chapter on David Lynch, thought "This should be interesting". Then I was struck with an overwhelming urging by the Holy Spirit that I was holding forbidden knowledge, and that I'd spent 35 years living through the Hell being curious about this kind of knowledge led me into, so stood up, walked around the front of the house, opened the garbage bin, and dropped it inside, never regretting what I did or wondering about it further, despite the fact it had cost me over $50 to get it to Oz. Similarly, I never had any urge to watch Jay again, until he popped up with Roosh recently, and I put two and two together and remembered the book.

You've all noticed how quickly things that go against the Narrative are memory-holed from Youtube. So why is Jay's channel still up? Why is he another one of those guys Youtube constantly recommends to me, despite my obvious lack of interest? Why is he pushing mistrust of the Pope and the Catholic Church? Why should I take him at face value, after everything we've been through with 'promoted thought leaders' over the last four years, when I know that the children of the adversary don't care what religion you choose - paganism, buddhism, odinism, new age - as long as you willingly separate yourself from Holy Mother Church.

Maybe he's a good guy. I'm not condemning him. But I'm allowed to be wary, and trust in what Jesus and the Bible says over a Youtube Celebrity. Particularly when it's backed up by such a strong prompting by the Holy Spirit, whom I know I can put my full trust in, because the Spirit knows I seek His protection due to my weakness and stupidity.

That's the truth of my lived experience, and I can't help if that steps on any toes, because I'm not going to lie.
 
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