piceaabies

Pigeon
How can a protestant turn matthew 7:21-23 around into believing in faith alone salvation?

Matthew 7:21-13 "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’"
 
How can a protestant turn matthew 7:21-23 around into believing in faith alone salvation?

Matthew 7:21-13 "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’"
I consider myself non denominational. That being said, I lean in that direction doctrinally. Your verse:

Didn't I do? (prophesy, drive out demons, perform miracles)

Lord, this is what I did- now reward my works with salvation.

It demonstrates a man who's heart is not right with the Lord, as someone that relies upon oneself for salvation is not acknowledging The Son.
 

Aloha50

Sparrow
How can a protestant turn matthew 7:21-23 around into believing in faith alone salvation?

Matthew 7:21-13 "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’"
John 6: 28-29

28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
 

piceaabies

Pigeon
“The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
I don't disagree with John 6:28-29, but true faith facilitates good works, and good works is the sign of true faith. Someone who may proclaim to have good faith but commit evil acts or refrain from doing the good, probably has weak or no faith. The two faciliate each other and one cannot exist without the other. Therefore without good works, no true faith and no salvation.

James 2:14-24.

"14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone."
 

Aloha50

Sparrow
I don't disagree with John 6:28-29, but true faith facilitates good works, and good works is the sign of true faith. Someone who may proclaim to have good faith but commit evil acts or refrain from doing the good, probably has weak or no faith. The two faciliate each other and one cannot exist without the other. Therefore without good works, no true faith and no salvation.

James 2:14-24.

"14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone."
I agree friend. Most often I see the whole Catholic\Protestant clash on this issue as simple semantics. Most Bible believing born again Christians, and I would include the notable men of the Reformation, don't in any way believe that if you just say a prayer you're saved. You might be saved, but you might not be. Works must follow. Change must occur. The individual himself, and others, will see a marked change in the person without which it is most likely he's not saved (I say most likely as fruit can take time to appear, yet the individual himself should notice change at least internally). So yes, good works most definitely follow salvation. They don't procure Salvation, that comes by faith in Christ, but are evidence of salvation.
 

Blade Runner

Pelican
Orthodox
I always swoop in these threads to either remind others who forgot, or inform those that don't know, that "faith" (greek pistis, even a root for the forming of the verb "to believe" which starts the Nicene Creed) is best translated into English as faithfulness. If you are faithful, you are DOING something, or even, not doing something - but action is the centerpiece here. Of course, you have to be rightly directed, but you wouldn't be faithful to Christ if you didn't "believe in" Christ in some capacity (at least as God-man the savior of all mankind and eternal things of the world).

For those that know the Gospel, this should already be intuitive. Beyond that, it is exactly what God desired for those of the old covenant, and they were largely unfaithful.

To hammer home the point yet again, it is not mental assent. The weirdest thing about this is that it is so obviously the case that but for bad, distorted theology, no one would ever have this opinion. When you die, no one is going to ask you "Is Jesus Christ Lord?" ... as if you were to answer "Yes" and then St. Peter or some other cartoon character ushers you to "heaven" for simply staying. As the holy fathers say, the demons know he is Lord, and even say it, yet they are not faithful...

Being SAVED means being restored and redeemed, being made whole, made well (Remember "your faith has made you well"? that is the greek word soson, sometimes translated "saved"). God raises all up in the last day, but only those that are faithful to Him and thus are known by Him, are redeemed as his, living in Him and with Him, for eternity. Amen.
 
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I always swoop in these threads to either remind others who forgot, or inform those that don't know, that "faith" (greek pistis, even a root for the forming of the verb "to believe" which starts the Nicene Creed) is best translated into English as faithfulness. If you are faithful, you are DOING something, or even, not doing something - but action is the centerpiece here. Of course, you have to be rightly directed, but you wouldn't be faithful to Christ if you didn't "believe in" Christ in some capacity (at least as God-man the savior of all mankind and eternal things of the world).

For those that know the Gospel, this should already be intuitive. Beyond that, it is exactly what God desired for those of the old covenant, and they were largely unfaithful.

To hammer home the point yet again, it is not mental assent. The weirdest thing about this is that it is so obviously the case that but for bad, distorted theology, no one would ever have this opinion. When you die, no one is going to ask you "Is Jesus Christ Lord?" ... as if you were to answer "Yes" and then St. Peter or some other cartoon character ushers you to "heaven" for simply staying. As the holy fathers say, the demons know he is Lord, and even say it, yet they are not faithful...

Being SAVED means being restored and redeemed, being made whole, made well (Remember "your faith has made you well"? that is the greek word soson, sometimes translated "saved"). God raises all up in the last day, but only those that are faithful to Him and thus are known by Him, are redeemed as his, living in Him and with Him, for eternity. Amen.
I think you have to be very careful with this line of thinking. I noticed you mention the old covenant, and it bears mentioning that this idea of 'faith' as a word better translated as 'faithfulness' is an idea I've seen used in the Hebrew Roots movement. For those that don't know, Hebrew Roots is theology that deemphasizes the New Covenant and the New Testament, often attacks Paul and his writings, and in my opinion puts too much of an emphasis on the keeping of law as opposed to the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

The bottom line for me is that our faith should be in Jesus and His finished work; and not in ourselves- certainly not our faithfulness. I'm speaking in terms of salvation. When it comes to rewards, faithfulness and works are very important.
 

Blade Runner

Pelican
Orthodox
I am not Hebrew Roots and am not concerned with spurious teachings or splinter groups. Since I am a Christian, and Orthodox beyond that, I emphasize that Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. As others have said, that's why He said those that love Him will keep his commandments - and they will repent when they miss the mark.

Your last statement is bizarre in that it uses the word faith yet again to be applied to something that I not only didn't talk about, but then again about the word I used to clarify what faith really means. You need to get out of this mental assent stuff, it's not healthy.
 

tychomaz

Sparrow
I don't disagree with John 6:28-29, but true faith facilitates good works, and good works is the sign of true faith. Someone who may proclaim to have good faith but commit evil acts or refrain from doing the good, probably has weak or no faith. The two faciliate each other and one cannot exist without the other. Therefore without good works, no true faith and no salvation.

James 2:14-24.

"14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone."
James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

"being alone"

If faith is alone then it exists without works.
 

tychomaz

Sparrow
I am not Hebrew Roots and am not concerned with spurious teachings or splinter groups. Since I am a Christian, and Orthodox beyond that, I emphasize that Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. As others have said, that's why He said those that love Him will keep his commandments - and they will repent when they miss the mark.

Your last statement is bizarre in that it uses the word faith yet again to be applied to something that I not only didn't talk about, but then again about the word I used to clarify what faith really means. You need to get out of this mental assent stuff, it's not healthy.
John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

If Jesus Christ said somewhere else those that love him WILL keep his commandments then John 14:15 would be wasted breath from the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob.
 
I am not Hebrew Roots and am not concerned with spurious teachings or splinter groups. Since I am a Christian, and Orthodox beyond that, I emphasize that Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. As others have said, that's why He said those that love Him will keep his commandments - and they will repent when they miss the mark.

Your last statement is bizarre in that it uses the word faith yet again to be applied to something that I not only didn't talk about, but then again about the word I used to clarify what faith really means. You need to get out of this mental assent stuff, it's not healthy.
Let me put it in another, more direct way: I don't believe it's generally correct to translate 'faith' as 'faithfulness'.

I believe this can be Scripturally proven. Some examples-

1. The woman with the blood issue in Mark 5.
Did she demonstrate 'faithfulness'? I would say no. Repentance? Yes. Fear of The Lord? Yes. Faithfulness? No.

2. The woman with the spikenard perfume in Luke 7.
She was called a sinner and Jesus even affirmed that her sin was great. She demonstrated a thankful heart and most likely, repentance with her tears. I'm not seeing faithfulness.

3. The blind man in Mark 10.
This man demonstrated a childlike reliance on Jesus and a touching understanding of Jesus' character of being merciful. I'm not seeing faithfulness.

4. The centurion in Luke 7.
Of whom Jesus said had greater faith than all in Israel.
He understood the power and authority of Jesus. He also had a right understanding of himself as not being worthy. Again, I'm not seeing faithfulness.

5. Rahab.
She lived the life of a prostitute, she can not rightly be called 'faithful'. But she had a fear of the Lord and a right understanding of His authority.

aside- the mercy of God- her whole house was saved according to His mercy. Hallelujah.

6. The parable of the publican in Luke 18
Again, a reliance on the character of God as merciful- not faithfulness. According to the word of God, mercy triumphs judgment.

7. Even Abraham, who was certainly faithful when he was tried by God, did it because he accounted that God was able to raise him up from the dead (Hebrews 11:19); in other words, he relied upon the goodness of God, he trusted God's sovereignty because he trusted His goodness and his infinite wisdom.

All that being said, I believe that faithfulness is very important in the Christian walk. One of my favorite Bible verses:

And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Revelation 19:11

Faithfulness is one of the character attributes of Jesus, and He is conforming us to His image, so it's critical that we pursue after faithfulness. But I would not tie faithfulness to salvation; I don't believe that's correct.
 

mjbravo

Pigeon
If one was to "commit gazillion of worst sins" after their supposed salvation, then it would be fairly clear that the person was never saved in the first place!! Anyone can make a false profession of faith. Even satan knew how to quote scripture.
There are thousands of individuals who have made a genuine profession of faith (whatever it is that actually means) then went on to stumble into wickedness and debauchery.

I’m perplexed how a Protestant can hold this view and believe in eternal security....as if if they know what the rest of their or anyone’s life holds. If your constantly turning around and saying, “well they were never saved in the first place” which you would have to do....then once saved always saved is a farce.
 

Eusebius Erasmus

Kingfisher
Orthodox
Eastern Orthodoxy has no distinction between faith and works. This seems to be an issue that is unique to Western Christianity (Catholics and Protestants).

The word 'faith' in Greek, when applied to religious life, implies a way of life -- not just a belief system.

Of course, this does not mean that our works save us; only Christ saves. However, we are not saved from works, but rather for works.
 
Eastern Orthodoxy has no distinction between faith and works. This seems to be an issue that is unique to Western Christianity (Catholics and Protestants).

The word 'faith' in Greek, when applied to religious life, implies a way of life -- not just a belief system.

Of course, this does not mean that our works save us; only Christ saves. However, we are not saved from works, but rather for works.

Bro- I couldn't possibly agree more with your last 2 sentences. I just listened to this word in fear and trembling. I don't want to be like one of those fakes that Wilkerson is talking about. Repent- for the kingdom of God is at hand.

 

Eusebius Erasmus

Kingfisher
Orthodox
Bro- I couldn't possibly agree more with your last 2 sentences. I just listened to this word in fear and trembling. I don't want to be like one of those fakes that Wilkerson is talking about. Repent- for the kingdom of God is at hand.

David Wilkerson was a Zionist. I don't listen to Zionist pastors, since they preach a false gospel.
 

Blade Runner

Pelican
Orthodox
There are thousands of individuals who have made a genuine profession of faith (whatever it is that actually means) then went on to stumble into wickedness and debauchery.

I’m perplexed how a Protestant can hold this view and believe in eternal security....as if if they know what the rest of their or anyone’s life holds. If your constantly turning around and saying, “well they were never saved in the first place” which you would have to do....then once saved always saved is a farce.
Precisely. This is kindergarten stuff to make life an easy box and show off to the rest of the bunch for emotional reasons, and also be part of the crowd. Forgive me, but it is and it must be treated as such because it is really bad theology.

If you don't think repentance is faithfulness to God, by the way, or you aren't seeing it, I'm sad to say you are blind.

@mjbravo gets at the complexities of life and why we cannot be reduced to single moments in time, rather, we are broken sojourners who need healing. That takes this lifetime, as our story is not written and is not finished until our life is over. This should be intuitively obvious even for a secular person - it is written into our hearts as creatures of reason made in the image of God, trying to attain his likeness.

Even in ancient Israel, the Day of Atonement was the way of managing the sins of the people. Repenting (as John the Baptist urged all) was quite literally him asking Israel to be faithful! There were various ways this worked out then, and works out now, but to say that repentance isn't part of being faithful is basically suggesting that you never sin!

Nothing is one and done. We will grow with God into eternity if we are willing and want to be transformed by Him, and that will never end. It certainly doesn't end by answering a question affirmatively, or saying a couple of words - though those small things may be on the spectrum. They can also be hollow, so let's be very careful.
 
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