Clergy & Monastics Father Josiah Trenham is a pillar of Orthodoxy

[DanielH]

Not to derail the thread but how do you reconcile promoting someone as a "pillar" of the Orthodox Church who themselves supports and promotes the works of Jordan Peterson? His works are anti-Christ tier stuff, and he's a degenerate. To me this is a sign that Trenham has low discernment. We must use strong discernment because most priests have some degree of error in their works, the only real pillars of Orthodoxy are the saints (and even then, there is error and even heresy that we must avoid internalizing). The OCA is full of priests who are signalling to the far right but they are being reeled into a trap and don't seem to be able to transcend this paradigm of post-enlightenment era, modern idealism (which the American worldview is an extension of).

The saints weren't perfect. If your main complaint is that he likes someone who isn't perfect he sounds like a pretty decent priest to me. Jordan Peterson was a stepping stone for a lot of people, including me. Yes he has problems, but I think Fr Josiah primarily sees the good in him especially when contrasted with our world today.

 

[jarlo]

I found this interview by Father Josiah very interesting. Father Josiah is interviewing a same-sex attracted (SSA) professor of Biblical studies on his book on his struggles with chastity and life in Christ:


Dr. Hill makes the point that we're essentially calling gay people to something like asceticism without either the support system that monks have in their monastery, or that married couples have through each other. Additionally, churches usually offer significant support to heterosexual couples in the form of premarital training/counseling, but they don't have good answers to SSA individuals. Also, married couples in churches have a mutual fraternity with other married couples which allows them to reinforce living within the faith, but for SSA individuals often excluded from such fraternity/family life, the struggle is much harder.

Dr. Hill is Anglican, but in his research he appears to be digging into the Church Fathers and older Christian ideas of friendship in order to think about what sort of support mechanisms could be created to help SSA individuals maintain chaste lives.

 

[Beaker]

Not to derail the thread but how do you reconcile promoting someone as a "pillar" of the Orthodox Church who themselves supports and promotes the works of Jordan Peterson? His works are anti-Christ tier stuff, and he's a degenerate. To me this is a sign that Trenham has low discernment. We must use strong discernment because most priests have some degree of error in their works, the only real pillars of Orthodoxy are the saints (and even then, there is error and even heresy that we must avoid internalizing). The OCA is full of priests who are signalling to the far right but they are being reeled into a trap and don't seem to be able to transcend this paradigm of post-enlightenment era, modern idealism (which the American worldview is an extension of).

This is relevant in a lot of ways, but the main one is that Peterson is a proponent of the will, and as far as I can tell so is the Orthodox Church. Not as much as Islam, but of the Christian denominations it's the closest to Islam. It might not truly be that, but in its form today it is, and Trenham is a good example. It might be because of how liberal the world is at the moment and that's the reaction from the Church.

 

[Eusebius Erasmus]

I found this interview by Father Josiah very interesting. Father Josiah is interviewing a same-sex attracted (SSA) professor of Biblical studies on his book on his struggles with chastity and life in Christ:


Dr. Hill makes the point that we're essentially calling gay people to something like asceticism without either the support system that monks have in their monastery, or that married couples have through each other. Additionally, churches usually offer significant support to heterosexual couples in the form of premarital training/counseling, but they don't have good answers to SSA individuals. Also, married couples in churches have a mutual fraternity with other married couples which allows them to reinforce living within the faith, but for SSA individuals often excluded from such fraternity/family life, the struggle is much harder.

Dr. Hill is Anglican, but in his research he appears to be digging into the Church Fathers and older Christian ideas of friendship in order to think about what sort of support mechanisms could be created to help SSA individuals maintain chaste lives.

This is a false dichotomy.

Homosexuality was only recently understood as a separate orientation, one that is impossible to break from.

However, historically, gay men were able to overcome their temptations and marry a woman, having a happy life.

Ultimately, though, I think that God will be very merciful towards a gay person who attempts a completely celibate life.

 

[Karolos White]

This is relevant in a lot of ways, but the main one is that Peterson is a proponent of the will, and as far as I can tell so is the Orthodox Church. Not as much as Islam, but of the Christian denominations it's the closest to Islam. It might not truly be that, but in its form today it is, and Trenham is a good example. It might be because of how liberal the world is at the moment and that's the reaction from the Church.

The gnostic anthropology promulgated by Peterson is anti-Christian. Read this excerpt from Saint John of Damascus:

​

Freewill and destiny by St John Damascus

 

[Karolos White]

The saints weren't perfect. If your main complaint is that he likes someone who isn't perfect he sounds like a pretty decent priest to me. Jordan Peterson was a stepping stone for a lot of people, including me. Yes he has problems, but I think Fr Josiah primarily sees the good in him especially when contrasted with our world today.

The eikon or image of God is Christ alone, not any saint and clergy imitating His virtues. Peterson promulgates Jung, who promulgated the worship of Christ as both God and Satan in one person. He is a demoniac until he actually becomes Orthodox and remits these gnostic/masonic delusions. A lot priests are well-versed and well-meaning but they do not know their enemy enough before delving into public realms trying to promulgate the Orthodox Faith.

I am not questioning the ultimate beneficial nature of this priest's efforts among the public, but rather the idolization of him as a modern-day saint. Some people on the right coming over to Orthodoxy seem to be praising this guy as a saint or an Orthodox idol - that is not his mission. The e-celeb idolatry element must be kept out of Orthodoxy entirely, because people fall into prelest and lead others into prelest (see Jays Analysis, Dyercord). People need to transcend infotainment altogether and follow the lives of the actual saints who show us how to be Holy, not just to know about holy matters and never get around to manifesting any of it in their own lives. People use the internet as an escapist device, that is incompatible with Orthodoxy. These priests who go into the e-celeb sphere know this but there are times where they slip up and give people the wrong impression e.g. Trenham promoting Peterson which implies people can import gnostic/pagan philosophy into Orthodoxy. Anyone who has followed Peterson and then come to Orthodoxy needs to read St John of Damascus' Fount of Knowledge book, then the Orthodox Study Bible, then start going to catechism and liturgies and leave all that other garbage in their lives behind - otherwise prelest and self-destruction is pretty much inevitable.

Saint John of Damascus: Writings

Library Genesis: by Frederic H. Jr. (trans) John of Damascus; Chase (Author) - Saint John of Damascus: Writings

Library Genesis is a scientific community targeting collection of books on natural science disciplines and engineering.

libgen.rs

 

[Blade Runner]

Indeed, we must be very careful in what we use in life, and how we use it. Especially in the "age of technology."

 

[Beaker]

The gnostic anthropology promulgated by Peterson is anti-Christian. Read this excerpt from Saint John of Damascus:

​

Freewill and destiny by St John Damascus

Yes, Peterson takes that from Jung. What I was suggesting is that Trenham likes Peterson because of his positive view of the will, and a lot from what I see in the Orthodox Church in America is centered around that and somewhat caters to reactionaries.

It's only natural since the world is so far removed from what the Bible teaches and people feel the need for order, but that sort of admiring of the will is only permanently seen in Islam. It leads to rigidness, authoritarianism, and backwardness because will ends up valued over logos.

Peterson is anti-logos in many ways and so was Jung, it's an irony because they're both intellectuals, but their greed and passion for power ends up blinding them.

 

[get2choppaaa]

Fr Trenham is a great resource... But he's wrong about endorsing Peterson.

That's ok.

It doesn't mean his theological perspective is flawed provided it's the same teaching as The Church.

 

[Beaker]

Fr Trenham is a great resource... But he's wrong about endorsing Peterson.

That's ok.

It doesn't mean his theological perspective is flawed provided it's the same teaching as The Church.

I think he needs to be careful and center himself around Aquinas and Augustine, but then again I’m Catholic. He’s very close to worshiping will and too much invested in the world for a priest in my opinion.

It’s not a coincidence that he likes Peterson.

 

[Beaker]

This video is interesting, Peterson is basically saying that Muslims and Orthodox Jews like him for the same reason that Orthodox Christians do. He disguises the whole thing as 'carrying your cross', but he's saying something else.

 

[DanielH]

I think he needs to be careful and center himself around Aquinas and Augustine, but then again I’m Catholic. He’s very close to worshiping will and too much invested in the world for a priest in my opinion.

It’s not a coincidence that he likes Peterson.

The world is wildly evil now, all he does is highlight that fact sometimes, and usually it's more of a clickbait title that gets you to listen to a more spiritual or theological lecture of his.

By pointing out the evils of the world, you show people what is wrong and you attract young men who know something is wrong but can't quite say how. Part of the reason there's so many wignats and other ideological extremists is because there isn't a Christian voice speaking against it from Protestant and Catholic clergy (and hardly any from the Orthodox but we're basically irrelevant). They don't know how to channel their righteous indignation. No, I'd argue other clergy don't point out the evil of the world enough.

Also I dislike Peterson's teachings but I think Fr Josiah is getting way too much hate for saying good things about him in the past.

 

[Beaker]

The world is wildly evil now, all he does is highlight that fact sometimes, and usually it's more of a clickbait title that gets you to listen to a more spiritual or theological lecture of his.

By pointing out the evils of the world, you show people what is wrong and you attract young men who know something is wrong but can't quite say how. Part of the reason there's so many wignats and other ideological extremists is because there isn't a Christian voice speaking against it from Protestant and Catholic clergy. They don't know how to channel their righteous indignation. No, I'd argue other clergy don't point out the evil of the world enough.

Also I dislike Peterson but I think Fr Josiah is getting way to much hate for saying good things about him in the past.

I understand that, and yes you need will in order to then have logos, but the pluralism/relativism of Peterson makes me think that he influenced the Great Reset. He had a talk at the Trilateral Commission, he's in deep or was at one time and directly influenced the globalists at least in some way.

He talks a lot about order and bringing order from chaos yet he's not Christian, he's just using Judeo-Christian stories. Peterson is a huge problem and any association with him is a red flag. Pluralism/relativism is globalism, and that's the Great Reset, that's the order that Peterson was calling for.

 

[DanielH]

I understand that, and yes you need will in order to then have logos, but the pluralism/relativism of Peterson makes me think that he influenced the Great Reset. He had a talk at the Trilateral Commission, he's in deep or was at one time and directly influenced the globalists at least in some way.

He talks a lot about order and bringing order from chaos yet he's not Christian, he's just using Judeo-Christian stories. Peterson is a huge problem and any association with him is a red flag. Pluralism/relativism is globalism, and that's the Great Reset, that's the order that Peterson was calling for.

I'd agree with you 100% if Fr Josiah spoke highly if him now but as far as I'm aware his last endorsement of Peterson was pre covid.

Also what do you mean by will? Free will?

 

[Beaker]

I'd agree with you 100% if Fr Josiah spoke highly if him now but as far as I'm aware his last endorsement of Peterson was pre covid.

Also what do you mean by will? Free will?

Will as in the masculine essence; thumos; ego; passion; will to power. It has many names, and it's what the globalists worship. Islam also. It's basically passion over logos - rule by passion - both within and how you interact with the world, establishing your will without the reason/logos to guide it. Both Aquinas and Augustine talk extensively about it and of course Plato and Aristotle.

Jung and Freud renamed the terms and perverted the order, and this perversion defines modernism.

 

[Eusebius Erasmus]

I'd agree with you 100% if Fr Josiah spoke highly if him now but as far as I'm aware his last endorsement of Peterson was pre covid.

Also what do you mean by will? Free will?

There is nothing good about Jordan Peterson's teachings, either pre or post Covid.

On the surface, Peterson's work is fine, but if you dig just a little bit, then you'll find Enlightenment liberalism and modernism, both of which are tools of the devil.

Trenham says, in the interview, that he gives copies of Peterson's 12 Rules for Life to young men at his parish.

Why would he be giving young men Peterson's heretical book? Why not, instead, give them a copy of Holy Scripture, or an icon of Christ?

I like Fr. Josiah a lot, and love his YouTube conversations with Protestants in particular. However, this adulation of Peterson calls into question Trenham's discernment. Do you think that St. Basil would have recommended 12 Rules for Life to young men, or would he instead have suggested they read Holy Scripture and Patristic writings?

 

[Heismightytosave]

Father Josiah is a priest in Riverside, California for the Antiochian Orthodox Church. I've never met him, but I consider him a spiritual elder thanks his prolific output of sermons and talks. He understands what's going on in the culture and connects it with the spiritual world better than anyone else. I hope to use this thread to share his work.

View attachment 24865

To start off, he's a recent sermon I enjoyed:


His YouTube channel:

PatristicNectarFilms

www.youtube.com

He has many theological lectures available for a reasonable price on his organization's web site: Patristic Nectar Films. They each come in downloadable MP3 format.

If you're new to Orthodox prayer, you will enjoy this series: https://patristicnectar.org/bookstore_120607_1

I'm currently enjoying his series on the Book of Revelation: https://patristicnectar.org/bookstore_150831_1

And if you're completely new to Orthodoxy, or simply would like to further your understanding, he has a mammoth catechism of 16 lectures: https://patristicnectar.org/bookstore_140523_1

I have bought it and will listen on my upcoming road trip.

Ok man, I'm going to be completely honest with you. Before listening to it, I honestly thought it was going to suck. There were a few things that turned me off right away, and I was prepared to hate it within the first 5 mins. Maybe it's just a style thing, and because certain things don't fit my personal style I was resistant.

But you know what? It was really good, and it blessed me. So I'm not going to split hairs on some of the minor stuff I didn't like, because big picture, I felt it bore fruit. Def a lesson that we need to stretch ourselves. Would you (or anyone else) consider listening to one of the sermons that I posted on my thread https://www.rooshvforum.com/threads/great-sermons.38525/#post-1442486 and giving me some feedback? They are all really good.

 

[DanielH]

There is nothing good about Jordan Peterson's teachings, either pre or post Covid.

Trenham says, in the interview, that he gives copies of Peterson's 12 Rules for Life to young men at his parish.

Why would he be giving young men Peterson's heretical book? Why not, instead, give them a copy of Holy Scripture, or an icon of Christ?

I like Fr. Josiah a lot, and love his YouTube conversations with Protestants in particular. However, this adulation of Peterson calls into question Trenham's discernment. Do you think that St. Basil would have recommended 12 Rules for Life to young men, or would he instead have suggested they read Holy Scripture and Patristic writings?

I didn't know that, that is concerning. I listened to most of that on audiobook before I was a proper Christian and I couldn't finish it because it just sounded like nonsense. The first or second chapter on lobster hierarchy almost made me stop listening that early on.

 

[ilostabet]

I find Peterson quite pedestrian and uninteresting, more than heretical (I mean, he is heretical, but it's hard to find a secular writer nowadays who isn't).

Fr. Trenham is indeed a pillar, at the very least of his community, and therefore he has the authority (and therefore good reason) to recommend whichever books he finds useful to his parish. I doubt he said 'read this as if it's scripture', more likely he wants them to confront the author's own assumptions in light of Orthodox teaching. Total non-issue.

 

[Roosh]

I find Peterson quite pedestrian and uninteresting, more than heretical (I mean, he is heretical, but it's hard to find a secular writer nowadays who isn't).

Fr. Trenham is indeed a pillar, at the very least of his community, and therefore he has the authority (and therefore good reason) to recommend whichever books he finds useful to his parish. I doubt he said 'read this as if it's scripture', more likely he wants them to confront the author's own assumptions in light of Orthodox teaching. Total non-issue.

If you listen to Fr. Trenham's lectures like I do, you'll see that he recommends a lot of secular figures, quoting them often. He does read secular books to keep his pulse on the cultural winds. It's unfortunate that detractors are using one of his recommendations in an attempt to wipe out his whole ministry. I see this as a demonic attack against him.