Floyd "Money" Mayweather VS Robert "The Ghost" Guerrero

[Timoteo]

I was really amused by Victor Ortiz's refusal to give Floyd respect. He behaved like a total pussy in their fight, and then tried to act like he was victimized by a cheap shot. He couldn't solve the mystery, so he got frustrated and tried to use his skull to bust Floyd open. Then instead of fighting, he wanted to kiss and hug instead. He wasn't deserving of an ounce of respect from Floyd. The ref said fight, and he didn't protect himself. He got slapped once, and STILL didn't protect himself, so he got knocked on his ass. His heart had been questioned in previous fights, but I gave him the benefit of the doubt. I'm reluctant to question ANY fighter's heart, just because of what they go through to get in the ring and the risks they accept when they're between the ropes. But he doesn't get the benefit from me anymore.

Oscar tells everyone now that he was old when he fought Floyd, and that's why he lost. Before the Ortiz fight, Oscar was in the dressing room doing what so many fight fans and media do - diminishing all the guys that Floyd had beaten, including himself, to Ortiz to give him the confidence he needed to beat Floyd. He did it again before this fight in an interview - that he was old when he fought Floyd, but that he effectively jabbed against him, and that was the key to beating him. Yeah, okay.

I remember that Carlos Baldomir was basically an unknown, but was coming off of the big upset of Zab Judah, who is/was a highly-skilled fighter that's fought some of the best out there. Floyd did his thing against him too.

One of my issues with Hatton was that he ballooned WAY up between fights. He was a man of the people, and liked to go down to the pub and belly-up to the bar. I'd read his walking around weight often got near 200, then he had to come all the way down for his fights. You can't do that. It takes too much out of you. I guess I held it against him that he didn't have more discipline. I was sad to hear how he was near suicidal after his losses to Floyd and Pac, and he actually fought decently in his comeback but got caught late. I can't help thinking that he might have left a lot of fight in the guy just trying to get down in weight.

I actually don't expect Mayweather/Pacquiao to get made now, but not because Pac got knocked out by Marquez. As I suspected, the fight didn't get made not because of fear on Floyd's part, but because of business. There's a major issue between him and Bob Arum (Oscar de la Hoya went to court to free himself from Arum also earlier in his career). Floyd said that he offered Pac $40 million, with half of that wired to him in 48 hours. Pac said no, give me half, and hung up. Floyd runs his own show, while Pac let's Arum run his. As a fan, I wanted to see the fight, but I understand why it didn't get made, so I'm cool with it. If Pac really wanted the fight, he should have told Arum to get out of the way. It would have been his largest payday, and since he's obviously been thinking about stepping away from the game sometime in the not-too-distant future, it would have been nice to bank some of that. He made his decision. I'm over it.

 

[Timoteo]

It helps my game to see these guys fight.

Floyd is 36. Hopkins is 46. Martinez is 38.

They are killing guys who are half their age.

What dedication! What spirit! What athletes.

Floyds defense is maybe the best defeneve if all time.

I don't know, I never saw Willie Pep fight..?

Did you guys see Rigondeaux beat Donaire?

That Cuban boy is a beautiful boxer. Pure old school. Pure class.

I think Martinez has started showing some age in his last two fights. Remember, he started late, and toiled for about 11 years before he was recognized as an elite fighter. His energetic style is hard to maintain for a fighter his age. Hopkins' style allows him to fight at an advanced age. That's what was shocking about his last fight, and he acknowledged it post-fight - he realized he had to increase his punch output if he was going to win. Previously, his fights were more wrestling than boxing (no disrespect meant, but he'd throw one punch, then grab). As for Floyd, none of the things that age fighters really apply to him. He hasn't been in a bunch of wars. He doesn't get hit in the head at all. He also doesn't throw an incredible amount of punches, so he hasn't burned/punched himself out. Most importantly, he doesn't balloon-up between fights. He's a gymrat, that seems to actually enjoy preparing for fights. Even if he isn't signed to fight anyone, he's in the gym regardless (I can only recall Evander Holyfield being that maniacal about being hard and in shape). He'll wake up at 3am and head out to run or to the gym. His fighting weight pretty much is his walking around weight. He obviously eats properly and doesn't party - he buys bottles for his people, but doesn't indulge himself. His discipline is like none other. Now you would think that with age, no matter how well you take care of yourself, the reflexes would slow, and the body simply wouldn't respond and/or recover as well. He's found a way to cheat that.

 

[Katatonic]

Oscar in retrospect was a few years off his best performance. But he had only lost to Trinidad (arguable), Mosley (close twice, but had his number, and the perfect style to beat Oscar) and Hopkins (outsized and over matched).

I know you're a Southern California guy like me, but please don't disrespect Sweet Pea like that.

 

[thegmanifesto]

Oscar in retrospect was a few years off his best performance. But he had only lost to Trinidad (arguable), Mosley (close twice, but had his number, and the perfect style to beat Oscar) and Hopkins (outsized and over matched).

I know you're a Southern California guy like me, but please don't disrespect Sweet Pea like that.

No disrespect.

I don't consider the Whitaker fight to be Oscar's "best performance" because in my book he lost that fight.

 

[Teedub]

Great doc, released last week about Floyd, it's really good.

 

[Dexter Morgan]

"They were also 15 round fights back then.

Anyone who knows that era knows that.

Like I said, different era."

Only very briefly. Ray Mancini knocked out Duk Koo Kim dead on a Saturday afternoon in Las Vegas in '81 or '82, and that was the end of that. Only ONE fight between those four guys went 15 rounds - the first Duran - Leonard fight.

Wrong again. (For the 32nd time).

Hagler beat Duran in a 15 round decision.



I am not sure I have ever had a boxing conversation with anyone so consistently inaccurate as you.

It is almost incredible how inaccurate you are. Amazing even.

Congratulations.

Not that a couple of scheduled extra rounds makes that much difference -

Someone who has never boxed, if that wasn't obvious earlier.

This comment tells everyone all you need to know about this guy.

This is the problem with "fans" who have never boxed themselves; they don't know anything about the sport.

This guy is a great example of this.

"I don't read yahoo sport or bleacher".

What about ESPN? Dan Raphael is their boxing-only analyst and, at this time, probably the most well regarded boxing writer out there. And he says your boy is a chicken who ducks fights.

Lemme guess: YOU only read Stephen A. Smith. It's OK to admit that. Lots of hood rats get their politically-inspired sports views from him...

Who?

You are increasingly getting emotional and insulting in this conversation.

I don't mind of course, but that is what people typically do when they lose every point of an argument time and time again.

You're right about Hagler-Duran, but still wrong about the point: These guys fought in the 1980's - that was their era. For 70% of that time (i.e., any time after mid-1983), the rule was 12 round fights: Let's not forgot your original point: "Different era; can't compare; 15 round fights". Mostly not, actually. What else do think was different about that era? It's not like baseball (new pitches, interleague play, proliferation of steroids) or football (significant change in roles of many positions - TE, FB, etc). As I said, the fights were mostly 12 3-minute rounds, in 16-20 foot rings, under a 10-point scoring system, with many of the same judges we have today (Dave Moretti, who scored Hagler-Leonard, also scored the Gabriel Rosada- J'Leon love fight the other day!). They mostly use 8 ounce gloves at that weight. Most of the fights are held in Las Vegas and the biggest promoter today, Bob Arum, was the biggest promoter then. Training regimens haven't changed that much. Why can't you compare the eras?

"Someone who has never boxed, if that wasn't obvious earlier." This shows your obnoxious and naïve debating style: You have ZERO BASIS for making any conclusions about me. You know nothing about me other than age and income, and only that from my profile. I, on the other hand, when I insult you, draw logical conclusions from your profile. In this instance, you are not correct; boxed in college. You? Not about college; its obvious you didn't go. I mean, did you ever box?

"You are increasingly getting emotional and insulting in this conversation.

I don't mind of course, but that is what people typically do when they lose every point of an argument time and time again."

You sound like my ex-wife. Let's let the others decide: I don't see a lot of folks in the world saying Mayweather HASN'T ducked top fighters. I see a lot of folks who agree with me that he is very talented, but knock him for ducking folks. And, of course, there are the articles I noted above - Kevin Iole, Dan Raphael. Tell me one prominent boxing writer who HASN'T accused Floyd of ducking opponents?? The only other prominent boxing writers I can think of are Steve Farhood (criticized Floyd for ducking Pacman based on accusations of drug use that he couldn't back up), and Kieran Mulvaney (criticized Floyd for ducking Pacman on his "Heavy Hitting" podcast. The sports two most prominent video journalists - Stephen A Smith and Larry Merchant - have accused him of ducking Pacman. Here's your homeboy Smith: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAgO7eSuJUE Or, you can just google the phrase Mayweather ducked, and see how many hits you get. Lots and lots and lots of links. Pacquiao ducked? Not so many.

So where am I getting emotional? You started with the insults, first snarly shit like "well I wasn't in the negotiations; I guess were!" and then stuff you couldn't possibly know ("you never boxed"). The only insult I can remember saying was that you reminded me of a hood rat. I base that in part on what you've told us about your life, in your profile. Sorry if that's un-PC. This isn't the corporate HR department; suck it up cupcake.

 

[Timoteo]

Who, other than Pacquaio, who has Floyd ducked that you believe he should have fought? That question is directed to all. Stephen A. just interviewed Pac, and on "First Take" he's actually defended Floyd, in saying that it wasn't fear that was stopping the fight from getting made, but boxing business. Floyd is the bad guy, and many writers and talking heads simply don't like him personally. Mike Wilbon has called him a coward. They're all speaking as fans, and fans wanted to see that fight made. Pac has the nicer image, so he got portrayed as the good guy.

 

[thegmanifesto]

You're right about Hagler-Duran, but still wrong about the point: These guys fought in the 1980's - that was their era.

Only needed to read the first line to see you are wrong again.

Hagler started his career in the early 70's. Won the title in a 15 rounder.

Leonard started his career in 77 after the Olympics. Fought plenty of 15 rounders. Stopped Hearns in the 14th.

"12 rounders are no different than 15 rounders! The only time I ever fought is when my older sister beat me up. Now I am going to get emotional and cry." - Dexter Morgan

Duran started his career in the 60's. Also fought a ton of 15 rounders.

Now go back to reading yahoo sports. The girls basketball section suits you better.

Go to your room and let the men talk about boxing.

----

All you have to do is let these guys talk and they always make fools of themselves.

 

[Timoteo]

Leonard acknowledged that he couldn't have beaten Hagler in a 15 round fight, which is why he negotiated the fight down to a 12 rounder. He also knew the 8 ounce glove favored the harder puncher (Hagler), so he negotiated 10 ouncers. Those extra 3 rounds matter a lot in a tough fight.

 

[Dexter Morgan]

Antonio Margarito is the most obvious guy - he hounded Floyd for YEARS but never got a fight. Ditto Paul Williams - Floyd wanted NOTHING to do with that monster! Also, Cotto in his prime - chased a fight with Floyd when both were 147 pound champs, but Floyd only fought him after he was ring-worn. Actually, that's true of most of the guys Floyd ducked - Shane Mosely in his prime. Oscar in his prime. Kostya Tszyu - Said he would fight him after he moved up to 140; never did. Also, earlier in his career, Freitas, Johnston, Joel Casamayor. Vernon Forrest. Winky Wright - Floyd actually called him out then allowed negotiations to break down at the last minute when Floyd increased his demands for money - same as with Pacman. http://www.sptimes.com/2005/07/22/Sports/Wright_Mayweather_bou.shtml

Step back and look at this way: Who were the top welters of the past 5 years? Pacman, Cotto, Mosley, Clottey, Margarito. How many did Floyd fight in their prime when they pressed him? Zero. How many guys moving up from 140 to 147 did he fight, though? See my list above.

You can look at this two ways: On the one hand, he's ducked folks. On the other hand, he's a smart businessman. He turned down $8M to fight Margarito - who was built all wrong for Floyd - and got roughly the same payday to fight Carlos Baldomir. This would be like me getting the same money to fight you or your little sister. So, I respect his business skills. BUT, now he's going around telling people he's the "greatest of all time", and THAT'S the problem. The people associated with that moniker - Muhammad Ali, Sugar Ray Leonard, Sugar Ray Robinson - fought the BEST of their eras.

Compare Cautious Floyd to Canelo Alvarez. EVERYONE said he was crazy for fighting Austin Trout! "You could blow a big payday against Mayweather if you lose!", they said. "You don't HAVE to fight him - he's unknown, he's dangerous, he's hungry". No reason at all to fight him. Except the desire to test yourself against the best. Floyd has made it very clear: "I'm fighting for MONEY - they call this PRIZEfighting".

 

[Dexter Morgan]

Leonard acknowledged that he couldn't have beaten Hagler in a 15 round fight, which is why he negotiated the fight down to a 12 rounder. He also knew the 8 ounce glove favored the harder puncher (Hagler), so he negotiated 10 ouncers.

Agree on the 10-ounce gloves. But wrong about the 15 rounds - the WBC reduced their fights to 12 rounds shortly after the Duk Koo Kim death in 1982, and the WBA soon followed. Only the IBF allowed 15 rounds for a while after, but it was very uncommon. The last time Hagler fought 15 rounds was in 1983 against Duran.

 

[Timoteo]

That article also states that it was Arum that ruined the Wright fight, which is why Floyd has issues dealing with him now and wanted to free himself from him. Just like De la Hoya did.

 

[Timoteo]

Leonard acknowledged that he couldn't have beaten Hagler in a 15 round fight, which is why he negotiated the fight down to a 12 rounder. He also knew the 8 ounce glove favored the harder puncher (Hagler), so he negotiated 10 ouncers.

Agree on the 10-ounce gloves. But wrong about the 15 rounds - the WBC reduced their fights to 12 rounds shortly after the Duk Koo Kim death in 1982, and the WBA soon followed. Only the IBF allowed 15 rounds for a while after, but it was very uncommon. The last time Hagler fought 15 rounds was in 1983 against Duran.

Leonard was also coming out of retirement for the fight, and wasn't even ranked. He leapfrogged all contenders that were in line and got a title fight. If he had wanted 15 rounds, he would have gotten it.

 

[Dexter Morgan]

You're right about Hagler-Duran, but still wrong about the point: These guys fought in the 1980's - that was their era.

Only needed to read the first line to see you are wrong again.

Hagler started his career in the early 70's. Won the title in a 15 rounder.

Leonard started his career in 77 after the Olympics. Fought plenty of 15 rounders. Stopped Hearns in the 14th.

"12 rounders are no different than 15 rounders! The only time I ever fought is when my older sister beat me up. Now I am going to get emotional and cry." - Dexter Morgan

Duran started his career in the 60's. Also fought a ton of 15 rounders.

Now go back to reading yahoo sports. The girls basketball section suits you better.

Go to your room and let the men talk about boxing.

----

All you have to do is let these guys talk and they always make fools of themselves.

You're really reaching: For three of these four (Leonard, Hagler, Duran), all or nearly all of their title fights were in the 1980's. That is, THE VAST MAJORITY of their championship fights -- the fights that MATTER, the fights we are comparing - were scheduled 12 rounders. Duran was the only guy with a substantial number of title fights in the 15 round era. Many of which were early round knockouts! In fact, in his whole career, 119 fights, Roberto Duran went 15 rounds exactly ...wait for it...3 times.

Plenty of film on MMH, Duran, Leonard, Hagler as well as Floyd. You can go to the boxing hall of fame in Canastota every spring and meet them and get them to tell you who they think highly of today, who's over-rated, who they think they'd have trouble with. They don't seem to have any trouble comparing fighters of the 1980's (including Tyson) against fighters of today. In fact, the only guy I know who seems to have this cognitive problem is...you!

 

[Dexter Morgan]

That article also states that it was Arum that ruined the Wright fight, which is why Floyd has issues dealing with him now and wanted to free himself from him. Just like De la Hoya did.

Could be. Will never defend Bob Arum! Happy to see that Oscar, and eventually Floyd and Canelo, will be the top promoters in the sport and not Arum and Don King. Remember Don King?? Christ.

 

[Dexter Morgan]

Leonard acknowledged that he couldn't have beaten Hagler in a 15 round fight, which is why he negotiated the fight down to a 12 rounder. He also knew the 8 ounce glove favored the harder puncher (Hagler), so he negotiated 10 ouncers.

Agree on the 10-ounce gloves. But wrong about the 15 rounds - the WBC reduced their fights to 12 rounds shortly after the Duk Koo Kim death in 1982, and the WBA soon followed. Only the IBF allowed 15 rounds for a while after, but it was very uncommon. The last time Hagler fought 15 rounds was in 1983 against Duran.

Leonard was also coming out of retirement for the fight, and wasn't even ranked. He leapfrogged all contenders that were in line and got a title fight. If he had wanted 15 rounds, he would have gotten it.

I guess he could have if he didn't want the title, but the WBA and the WBC stopped sanctioning 15 rounders by then. Also, the Nevada State Athletic Commission. So, he couldn't have 15 rounds in Vegas - which means less $$$$. I don't think he would've gone for it. Also, while its common today for fighters to walk away from titles and fight the big money fights, calling themselves the "PFP champ' or "linear champ", it wasn't common in 1987. But strictly speaking, you're correct - he could have insisted on 15 rounds and gotten a fight somewhere for less money. Most premier athletes wouldn't do that.

 

[Timoteo]

Leonard acknowledged that he couldn't have beaten Hagler in a 15 round fight, which is why he negotiated the fight down to a 12 rounder. He also knew the 8 ounce glove favored the harder puncher (Hagler), so he negotiated 10 ouncers.

Agree on the 10-ounce gloves. But wrong about the 15 rounds - the WBC reduced their fights to 12 rounds shortly after the Duk Koo Kim death in 1982, and the WBA soon followed. Only the IBF allowed 15 rounds for a while after, but it was very uncommon. The last time Hagler fought 15 rounds was in 1983 against Duran.

Leonard was also coming out of retirement for the fight, and wasn't even ranked. He leapfrogged all contenders that were in line and got a title fight. If he had wanted 15 rounds, he would have gotten it.

I guess he could have if he didn't want the title, but the WBA and the WBC stopped sanctioning 15 rounders by then. Also, the Nevada State Athletic Commission. So, he couldn't have 15 rounds in Vegas - which means less $$$$. I don't think he would've gone for it. Also, while its common today for fighters to walk away from titles and fight the big money fights, calling themselves the "PFP champ' or "linear champ", it wasn't common in 1987. But strictly speaking, you're correct - he could have insisted on 15 rounds and gotten a fight somewhere for less money. Most premier athletes wouldn't do that.

I also remember Jose Suliaman, who ran the WBC, admitting that he was in Don King's pocket and expressing embarrassment about it. Just like challengers got paid step-aside money to let someone else get their title shot.

 

[Timoteo]

I don't know how sound it is to determine one fighter is ducking another based on who called out who. Challengers will often say they want the champ before they're actually in position to get the fight. And again, the boxing organizations get in the way of matches getting made.

 

[Dexter Morgan]

Leonard acknowledged that he couldn't have beaten Hagler in a 15 round fight, which is why he negotiated the fight down to a 12 rounder. He also knew the 8 ounce glove favored the harder puncher (Hagler), so he negotiated 10 ouncers.

Agree on the 10-ounce gloves. But wrong about the 15 rounds - the WBC reduced their fights to 12 rounds shortly after the Duk Koo Kim death in 1982, and the WBA soon followed. Only the IBF allowed 15 rounds for a while after, but it was very uncommon. The last time Hagler fought 15 rounds was in 1983 against Duran.

Leonard was also coming out of retirement for the fight, and wasn't even ranked. He leapfrogged all contenders that were in line and got a title fight. If he had wanted 15 rounds, he would have gotten it.

I guess he could have if he didn't want the title, but the WBA and the WBC stopped sanctioning 15 rounders by then. Also, the Nevada State Athletic Commission. So, he couldn't have 15 rounds in Vegas - which means less $$$$. I don't think he would've gone for it. Also, while its common today for fighters to walk away from titles and fight the big money fights, calling themselves the "PFP champ' or "linear champ", it wasn't common in 1987. But strictly speaking, you're correct - he could have insisted on 15 rounds and gotten a fight somewhere for less money. Most premier athletes wouldn't do that.

I also remember Jose Suliaman, who ran the WBC, admitting that he was in Don King's pocket and expressing embarrassment about it. Just like challengers got paid step-aside money to let someone else get their title shot.

They also do things you'd never get away with in the NFL or MLB - comping judges, picking up their hotel tabs for them and their guests. The conflict of interest is amazing. "Hey Jose, this is judge so-and-so who is working the Mayweather fight saturday...you know, my girlfriend and I really like the Bellagio and we want to stay on another three days...can you pick up the tab? Great" This stuff happens all the time. Jose Sulaiman is a crook. So is Gilberto Mendoza at the WBA.

 

[Timoteo]

Here's a piece about the Hagler/Leonard fight: http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/6983512/hagler-vs-leonard

It's a bit long, but it's a history of how the fight got made from the parties involved. They discuss the negotiations, including the number of rounds...