Fast Eddie said:Deepdiver said:In the USA in all 50 states, no matter the situation - if you are in fear for your life you never give up the right to self defense - this also applies to military personnel when faced with contradictory rules of engagement in a war zone.
Can you elaborate on what this means? Are you saying that if you are carrying an otherwise "illegal" weapon but are discovered due to having to use that weapon in self defense, you will not be penalized for illegal possession?
This is why people also get confused about the alleged 'disappearance of the rule of law'. You don't give up your right of self defence anywhere, in any sane country. In the UK, there is no law of retreat (which I believe there is in some states in the US - I have no reason to know this and may be wrong), and self-defence can be proactive - ie you are allowed to take steps to protect yourself before you have suffered any violence. This means shooting someone carrying a potentially lethal weapon is legal in the UK (assuming you have a licensed weapon and you are somewhere you might legitimately have it, like your home).
Take the following scenario as an illustration:
H1N1 goes out to the pet store, dressed up to the nines, and drawing IOIs left, right and centre as he walks down the street. In the inside pocket (behind his pocket square, obviously) is his ASP baton, which is illegal in the UK. As he walks into the shopping centre, he stops an attractive young policewoman to ask for directions. She blushes, points towards the back of the shopping centre, and when asked if it is any good, she says suggestively that she knows it is about to have at least one mighty fine specimen within its walls. H1N1 holds eye contact and smirks. To break the extended pause, the policewoman offers H1N1 her badge number and radio ID, hastily scrawled on a cautioning slip. H1N1 warns her that perhaps he should be cautioning her for being such a naughty girl. She blushes again, giggles, and goes off to sit late into the night by her HAM radio set, waiting for the call.
H1N1 arrives at the pet store, feeling that by this point there is no reason he could not walk around with a sturdy cane, complete with diamante studded knob, as the police would simply assume it was part of his professional attire. He is acutely aware that he should be twirling something in his hands as he whistles.
On walking into the pet store, almost immediately a pretty young girl distances herself from her professional athlete boyfriend, and starts making eyes at H1N1. As our hero is only there to buy kitty litter, he studiously ignores these advances. Eventually her boyfriend notices, and, picking up a large wooden scratching post, with a few fluffy balls attached on string, rushes at H1N1 intent on doing harm.
Quick as a flash, H1N1 draws his expandable baton, readjusts his pocket square, performs a textbook passata-sotto under the swing of the scratching post, delivering a short hard clout to the outside of baddy's knee. There is a loud crack. The baddy yelps like a little girl, fights back tears, but turns and raising the scratching post again. H1N1 notices the fluffy balls, dangling with intent on their pristine white strings, and smiles to himself. It was over before it had begun. As the baddy lunges at H1N1, he puts his weight on his damaged knee, and loses balance, falling neatly onto H1N1's patinanto, which catches him perfectly between the eyes.
Unfortunately, before H1N1 can round up what has now become a throng of excited damsels, the fuzz arrive, out of breath, with pastry crumbs down the front of their uniforms. H1N1 is vaguely aware of the indignity of being collared by this shower, but goes quietly, as he feels his day will be more interesting this way. Just as they are leaving the pet store, the police woman from earlier arrives, on cloud escorted by cherubims and seraphims, and pleads his case to the other officers with tears in her eyes. Unfortunately these officers' envy outstrips their natural inclination to white knight, and H1N1 is lead away in cuffs.
Some weeks pass after H1N1 is let out on bail, in which time he has posted about his police flag in the players log. At this point, the Department of Public Prosecutions decides to prosecute, and H1N1 finds himself in front of a judge. H1N1 opted for for the three-piece, immaculately tailored Geives and Hawkes over the Huntsman check, and feels it was a good decision, as the judge halts the introduction to comment on it favourably, giving H1N1 a smile, and an encouraging wink. The jury nod their head in agreement at the judge's obvious taste in gentleman's clothes.
The proceedings begin, and the prosecution are advocating a primary charge of GBH, and a minor charge of possession of an illegal weapon in a public place. The prosecution argue convincingly that, far from being self defence, possession of a weapon that was known to be illegal (a fact not in dispute by the defence), in a public place, was suggestive of a type of behaviour that courted trouble, and that the only reason anyone carried a weapon such as the baton was in order to use it. Consequently this was not an unprovoked attack, but rather the desired outcome of a young hooligan looking to steal the girlfriends of the country's most popular athletes. The prosecution resorts to the cheap slur of calling H1N1 a pickup artist, to which he objects, and the judge sustains this objection. Unfortunately, the jury has been exposed to this line of reasoning, and now the two SIFs in the front row, who had sparked the cat allergies of other members of the jury from the fur on their over-tight clothing, are looking at H1N1 with hatred and disgust. One member of the jury makes a note to Google RVF later.
H1N1 (representing himself, of course) steps up to make the defence's case, putting something shiny on the desk to distract the two cat ladies from their vitriol. Alone stands brave H1N1, constant still in mind, and begins his counter-argument for self defence. He points out that he was attacked first, was under no obligation to retreat, and that he used proportionate force in response to the attack of the disgruntled athlete. All the witnesses confirm this story, and the charge of GBH is reluctantly dropped by the prosecution. Unfortunately this still leaves H1N1 facing the charge of possession of an illegal weapon in a public place, and, following R. v Povey & Ors, a substantial custodial sentence. Anyone other than our hero would, at this point, find themselves bang to rights on a still very serious charge carrying with it significant prison time. Fortunately, owing to the force of his personality, charm, and obvious style, the judge decides to create a new precedent, which he calls the avian precedent, and it applies exclusively to this case. In all other cases, anyone who uses an illegal weapon in self-defense is going to receive a custodial sentence (perhaps suspended due to previous good character), and this is going to significantly complicate your life, perhaps for ever. However, it will complicate your life less than being dead, or brain damaged.