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<blockquote data-quote="ilostabet" data-source="post: 1443296" data-attributes="member: 13181"><p>First I would like to say that, while conversation with non-Christians can be fruitful, it cannot be fruitful when there is open contempt and clear ignorance from the other side (which will not be recognized, as it comes from anger, and is demonic). I don't know why such a person would wish to come to a Christian forum simply to attack, but we should ask God to have mercy on him - for debate is clearly impossible without common ground, which is the case here, and it won't lead to anything other than anger on both sides - leading the demons to win.</p><p></p><p>The second thing I wanted to say is more important, though related to the above as well, and it is that I don't believe your assertion to be correct. While we must condemn ecumenism (even within Christian 'denominations', and equally for other traditions) and be very firm that the Scripture is God's direct revelation to man, and that Christ is the center (the heart) of all Creation, we need to keep in mind that if this is the case, and as St. Paul also wrote, it is literally impossible for long-standing traditions to be fully of the devil, but instead they must contain at the very least (and probably more) a kernel of truth (a kernel is, remember, the inner part of a seed, which can be planted into a full grown plant), for Christ is Lord of all history and of all nations - and this is why 'the law' is written in all men's hearts. Of course, it is not only possible but probable that these other traditions have been mistaken, corrupted, transformed and taken in a very bad direction, or several - by the mere fact that they were guided only by this one manifestation of God, instead of the full revelation. One indication of this is that several pagan traditions were not, originally, what one would call a polytheistic faith - though in time it has become corrupted and it appears outwardly as such. But in recognizing this, it is also important to recognize the same process has occurred in our own Churches - in the case of Protestantism, in a much more radical and revolutionary way than anything in any other religion, where the departure from original doctrine is not nearly as severe.</p><p></p><p>The reason I point this out is that I think this is a purely Protestant approach, which might be residual in former Protestants and latent in others for the very simple fact that every form of Christianity has, by its very existence side by side with the modern world, been Protestantized - and I believe it is this very thing that contributes to turn people like the pseudo-gnostic member over to the demons (I say pseudo because there is no true gnosticism anymore, it is a tradition that died and was reanimated artificially, similarly to European neo-paganism in general). But even more importantly I find this attitude does not reflect the Trueness of Christ, which is present in every moment, and a man and a society can no more flee it entirely than one can stop breathing. Of course, certain people and certain societies might restrict to a greater or lesser extent their ability to breathe, but if they do so for too long and too strongly, they will asphyxiate. These asphyxiations happen quite naturally, and occurred to many cultures and traditions (like gnosticism), which is a testament that they did not keep enough of God's truth in them to survive or didn't have much to begin with. Others will be incorporated into Christ (like European paganism was, in its various forms). As to the other ones which survived intact to the modern age, it is I think a testament to the opposite, and it is thus quite possible to incorporate their localized tradition into Christ (as was done, for example, in Japan, to a degree - before some historical problems arose).</p><p></p><p>Remember that St. Paul did not enter Greece preaching to them saying they were worshiping demons (though there was definitely some of that going at the time too), but rather to make known the God which to them was still unknown.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="ilostabet, post: 1443296, member: 13181"] First I would like to say that, while conversation with non-Christians can be fruitful, it cannot be fruitful when there is open contempt and clear ignorance from the other side (which will not be recognized, as it comes from anger, and is demonic). I don't know why such a person would wish to come to a Christian forum simply to attack, but we should ask God to have mercy on him - for debate is clearly impossible without common ground, which is the case here, and it won't lead to anything other than anger on both sides - leading the demons to win. The second thing I wanted to say is more important, though related to the above as well, and it is that I don't believe your assertion to be correct. While we must condemn ecumenism (even within Christian 'denominations', and equally for other traditions) and be very firm that the Scripture is God's direct revelation to man, and that Christ is the center (the heart) of all Creation, we need to keep in mind that if this is the case, and as St. Paul also wrote, it is literally impossible for long-standing traditions to be fully of the devil, but instead they must contain at the very least (and probably more) a kernel of truth (a kernel is, remember, the inner part of a seed, which can be planted into a full grown plant), for Christ is Lord of all history and of all nations - and this is why 'the law' is written in all men's hearts. Of course, it is not only possible but probable that these other traditions have been mistaken, corrupted, transformed and taken in a very bad direction, or several - by the mere fact that they were guided only by this one manifestation of God, instead of the full revelation. One indication of this is that several pagan traditions were not, originally, what one would call a polytheistic faith - though in time it has become corrupted and it appears outwardly as such. But in recognizing this, it is also important to recognize the same process has occurred in our own Churches - in the case of Protestantism, in a much more radical and revolutionary way than anything in any other religion, where the departure from original doctrine is not nearly as severe. The reason I point this out is that I think this is a purely Protestant approach, which might be residual in former Protestants and latent in others for the very simple fact that every form of Christianity has, by its very existence side by side with the modern world, been Protestantized - and I believe it is this very thing that contributes to turn people like the pseudo-gnostic member over to the demons (I say pseudo because there is no true gnosticism anymore, it is a tradition that died and was reanimated artificially, similarly to European neo-paganism in general). But even more importantly I find this attitude does not reflect the Trueness of Christ, which is present in every moment, and a man and a society can no more flee it entirely than one can stop breathing. Of course, certain people and certain societies might restrict to a greater or lesser extent their ability to breathe, but if they do so for too long and too strongly, they will asphyxiate. These asphyxiations happen quite naturally, and occurred to many cultures and traditions (like gnosticism), which is a testament that they did not keep enough of God's truth in them to survive or didn't have much to begin with. Others will be incorporated into Christ (like European paganism was, in its various forms). As to the other ones which survived intact to the modern age, it is I think a testament to the opposite, and it is thus quite possible to incorporate their localized tradition into Christ (as was done, for example, in Japan, to a degree - before some historical problems arose). Remember that St. Paul did not enter Greece preaching to them saying they were worshiping demons (though there was definitely some of that going at the time too), but rather to make known the God which to them was still unknown. [/QUOTE]
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